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ArmchairHuntress
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Newbie here

Post by ArmchairHuntress »

Hello Folks,

I'm a newbie here.

When I was a young, I came across a copy of Sherriffs "Mystery of the Haunted Mine." I read it, and re-read it, and re-read it. In eigth grade, my science teacher was just a touched crazed, he kept proposing wild field trips like going up to the Ape Caves to find Bigfoot, and searching for the Dutchman's Lost Mine. He liked talking about the Lost Dutchman. I liked hearing about it!

I lost track of what was happening though, as I grew older, raised a family, etc. Now, via the internet and a couple of other books I've picked up (Kollenborn's Ride Through Time, and a book by someone with the last name of Mitchell "Lost Mines of the Great Southwest" or something like that), I'm catching up on what I never knew when I was younger, and what's been happening since then.

Seems like some of you all have been here at this forum (and seeking, ever seeking) for quite some time!

I have a couple of questions:

I have seen John Ramses' website. I think he presents a good case. I saw a post in your archives section, someone else had posted about him, but seemed a bit dubious as Mr. Ramses had posted photographs of "spirits" on his website (he does state that it's due most likely to natural causes, not ghosts). Anyway, I was disappointed not to find too much discussion about him and his findings here.

Second: Has it ever been established that Jake's mine was the Peralta mine? It seems very likely to me that the two could be mutually exclusive of each other, and I'm getting the impression here that most think they are one and the same, but I could be wrong about my impression, I know everyone has their own ideas.

Third, some posts mention photos being posted ~ are they still available for viewing? I can't find them if they are!

Well, that's it for now, hope ya'll don't mind a newbie, and an armchair hunter, and a female, to boot!
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Pictures

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

A.H.,

Welcome to the Forum.

Go to "HOME" at the bottom of the page and then go to "Member Archive". You will find the pictures there.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by ArmchairHuntress »

Thank you kindly, sir!
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

My pleasure!
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Post by Chief Oshkosh »

I have seen John Ramses' website. I think he presents a good case. I saw a post in your archives section, someone else had posted about him, but seemed a bit dubious as Mr. Ramses had posted photographs of "spirits" on his website (he does state that it's due most likely to natural causes, not ghosts). Anyway, I was disappointed not to find too much discussion about him and his findings here.
I agree. I haven't bought the book but from his website it looks like he's solved the Peralta-Ruth map. Whether that mine is the same as the Lost Dutchman is another question. Ruth believed it was, but you'd need an ore sample to prove it.

It appears the Salt River Reservation thinks Ramses's solved it too. They've cut all access to the site. They have 2 casinos that are doing quite well so they aren't in "dire straits" and therefore can't use the gold in the mine anyway. My opinion is that they've placed Red Mountain and vicinity "off limits" in order to protect their current prosperity. Old superstitions run deep, usually for good cause...

I find it strange that they let Ramses go in there in the first place. My opinion is the Salt River Reservation had no idea what was up there. I would have thought they knew where the Lost Dutchman was all along. Why else let Ramses go poking around back there unless you knew he wouldn't find anything?

Ramses then publishes his findings and shorty therafter the reservation blocks access to the area. If that's just another dry hole, why not open it up and prove it's worthless?

P.S. about the "ghosts." I seem to remember reading years ago about some rich lost mine in Mexico where the suspected vicinity used to glow intermitantly and have strange lights when lightning storms raged in the area. It might have been a J.D. Mitchell tale I don't remember.
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Post by djui5 »

Chief Oshkosh wrote: Ramses then publishes his findings and shorty therafter the reservation blocks access to the area. If that's just another dry hole, why not open it up and prove it's worthless?

Maybe they didn't want a bunch of gun toting lunatics running rampant up there like there are in the supers?

BTW, does anyone know why his site is down? Sombreromines.com


For some reason my quotes don't work properly either....the coding is correct...
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Sacred Sites?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Chief,

Perhaps they shut it down to protect something sacred to them. 8O

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by zentull »

Welcome to the forum,

I remember that post. After checking out the site I was not sure of throwing my money away. Good read, good book, I enjoyed it..........should have never checked out the background first though. Before I upgraded my camera I too used to get Orbs in certain conditions. I remember the 200 feet across from the cave bit and thought " Wow, Tex really did haul old Adolph quite a ways". I don't believe the LDM is on Bluff springs but love Magills story. Seems as though the links have been dropping off that site for a while. Not the first time the LDM was found and probably not the last.

Saw a blue phosphorous glow like fog during a monsoon storm once. Figured it is something like St Elmos fire. Big storm we had around 1990-91. Very cool looking.

I once stopped for a cup of coffee with the guy at the big tent. We talked about where I was going. He said it was restored to natural conditions and I would not be able to recognize the place. I went and everything was the same, even the trash in the area. On my way out he asked how it went. I said it was just like he said. He laughed and said I told you so. Go figure.

Don't think they let anyone up by the medicine wheel anymore either.
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Post by Chief Oshkosh »

That's what I mean. If the area is sacred why let him in in the first place? Seems Like they didn't know it might be sacred until after they saw Ramses findings. So if that is the Lost Dutchman the Salt River Indians must have lost the location to it somewhere along the way.
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Post by Chief Oshkosh »

Maybe they didn't want a bunch of gun toting lunatics running rampant up there
Now you're making me homesick for the opening day of gun season...
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Post by ArmchairHuntress »

Ok, maybe Ramses is a bit more "out there" than I thought, I was able to find this site:

http://www.ghostradiox.com/qfg/default.asp

I've not yet read his book, but am hoping to get a copy someday and do so.

So, questions upon questions upon more questions; perhaps it's just a matter of asking the right questions, hmmm? But then, you'd have to ask the right person the right questions, wouldn't you? <g>

I'm wondering if the Peralta-Ruth map is considered bogus because of the Reavis fiasco? Not Elisha Reavis, but the Reavis who got a hold of a Peralta land grant, and tried to end up owning most of Arizona? Is it thought that the Peralta-Ruth map was one of the many documents Reavis faked?

How would this Reavis have done it? Gone out one day with a sketchbook, hiked up a mountain, sat down on a rock somewhere and drew a map with a secret to it's interpretation of where a certain hole was? Just to prove that he was indeed married to a Peralta? It seems an elaborate and time-consuming task to produce a fake map that actually makes sense today (as explained by John Ramses) when Reavis also apparently forged many other documents as well. And it seems like this Reavis would have had to have known a bit about the supposed mine(s) to have come up with the idea in the first place?

I'm just curious as to why, regardless of whomever drew that map, it's considered a fake? Is it because of lack of substantial proof that the Peralta's were mining in the Supersitions at all? Is it because of Ruth's son, and his story of how he acquired the map? In all the accounts I've read, it says that Ruth's son was not interested in finding the mine at all, yet here I've read some things that indicate otherwise. I might have to agree there. I mean, I've heard that Ruth's son was reluctant to let his father embark upon this journey, yet he drove him anyway. Seems to me that a son, concerned for a frail father, would not have carried through, and would have somehow prevented his father from doing something dangerous. But if Ruth's son was truly interested, would he not have gone with his father?

Anyway, again I ask myself, how can a map that actually matches up (according to Ramses) be a fake? No, the map does not indicate a mine, according to Ramses, but to a tunnel, a hole. Leading to a Peralta mine? Which was also Jake's mine? Again, those questions upon questions. I love it!

Here's another question I have. I've never been to the Supersitions, so I don't know the lay of the land, I'm just struggling on with the maps I find on the internet. Looking on that 1895 map of Arizona, I see that Mt McDowell is just north and slightly west of the Superstitions, is that right? And that there is a small valley seperating the two? What is the distance between Mt McDowell and the Superstitions? Is it thought that Mt McDowell was once part of the Superstitions? And broke away at some cataclismic point? And then Arizona Dam Butte is just east of Mt McDowell, is that correct? Again, with a valley between the two? And what is the distance between Mt McDowell and Arizona Dam Butte?

I found an aerial map of Arizona Dam Butte on the internet, and can't make heads or tails of it very well, but it looks like there are housing developments on it? Well, I guess I'll keep staring at it, hoping for an epiphany.

I also came across a website that talks about the Marcus landslide, or rock avalanche. I'm wondering what, if any, impact that may or may not have had in the formation or possibility of producing or moving amounts of ore? I'm no geologist, so I have no clue. The site is pretty vague about when the slide happened (unless you are a geologist, I guess), it gives time periods such as tertiary and mezozoic and such, and I'm pretty lame when it comes to figuring out when all that happened, but I'm guessing it was a long, long, long, long, long time ago!

(Ah, a thought, while thinking in terms of geology. The earthquake in 1887, did it affect Mt McDowell and Arizona Dam Butte too? Then perhaps the Peralta-Ruth map is a fake, and was drawn after the earthquake, and that's why it all matches up, none of the landmarks would have changed because it was drawn after the quake.) Again, those questions upon questions.

An interesting side note, seems I have some vague family connections with Arizona after all, even though I'm a born and bred Oregonian. I was over at my cousin's some time back. I spotted a lovely oil painting of a young woman and wondered if my cousin had painted it. She said no, Aunt Claire had painted it, it was a self-portrait. My father's brother, my Uncle Dale, married Claire Gadsden, she being a descendant of James Gadsden. I had no idea of Aunt Claire's maiden name or family connection until my cousin told me. My cousin was executor for both of them when they passed away, as they did not have any children, and my cousin has kept some of their things, I'll have to see if she'll let me dig through some of the stuff because I love reading through old letters and papers and photos.

Well, I've gone on, haven't I? Hope I'm not being redundant, I'm sure there are some answers to my questions already posted here, but I'm trying to catch up, but I don't want to hurry and miss anything, either. So, my apologies again for being redundant, or asking silly questions, or not seeming to know what I'm talking about, I figure the only way to find out is to read, and ask!

Happy Hunting, ya'll
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Post by zentull »

It is probably a good 15 miles as the crow flies from the northern edge of the Superstitions to McDowell mountain, possibly further depending on the starting point.

Ruths map is incomplete. We have a copy, but there was supposedly more on the original. It matches up well with Magills "Dutchman" mine, which could have been a Peralta mine and/or cache. Too many maps fit the topography of the area. They were selling fakes when I was a kid.

As far as Red Mountain is concerned, there was a time when that area was a party spot. Six poles butte was well known, I was at a few boondockers there as a kid. The medicine wheel is across the river before you get there. Lots of artifacts in the area. John Ramses discoveries of mines were preceded by a lot of stoned and drunk kids I am sure.

Same goes for the grinding stones from the arrastas in Cave Creek canyon. In fact you don't have to leave the Phoenix city limits to find open shafts and tunnels. A lot of areas that are rediscovered are not really lost until they build homes or make a gravel pit out of them.

John Ramses currently does a paranormal radio program out of Australia, I think it is syndicated.
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Post by ArmchairHuntress »

Thanks for your reply, I appreciate it.

Funny, I checked the link I provided regarding Ramses site now, and I don't know if the site itself is having trouble, or if he's taking it down because sometimes I can get the site to come up today, and sometimes I can't.

One way I've found to get to his site on the Dutchman is to go to his other site here:

http://www.ghostradiox.com/phantom/about_johnramses.asp

And then clicking on the link to his book. Of course, I just checked the link again, and now it won't take me there. I'm wondering if he's taking the pages off that relate to his book. Sometimes the pages will load, sometimes not.

Strange.
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Post by djui5 »

I noticed that too huntress. Sometimes if I re-load the page it will show up.


Oh, here is some info on that landslide if you wanna check it out.


http://alliance.la.asu.edu/slides/introduction.html
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Post by ArmchairHuntress »

Thanks, that great to see some photos!

And while I'm sure you've all been to this site before, here is the aerial photo of Arizona Dam Butte that I've been looking at:

http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T ... -111.68028

Thanks again to all, have a good weekend!

PS - if you do make it to Ramses site, do be sure to click on the link that says "Kevin Smith Show Listeners Click Here." More stuff there as well.
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Post by JIM HAMRICK »

Welcome to you, armchairhuntress, from the ones of us who do our exploring via the computer. I believe that you are asking some of the right questions.

The Superstitions start about 2 miles from McDowel Mt. If you go by maps that I have seen. The whole range south of the river was to Picket Post was once called the Superstitions. Remember when the mine was supposedly found by Waltz there was no GoldField (late 1890's) or Usery Mt. (Us-ry or Us-ery) named for the Usery ranch.

There was a town and a crossing or ferry about where the diversion dam is today. It would make more sense for Waltz to crosss the Salt at Hayden's Ferry then travel up river to the soldier's crossing. I have been trying to tie down the soldier's road from the crossing to Florence Junction but not having much luck.

I have wondered if the Reavis claim had anything to do with the stone maps. I don't beleive all of what has been printed about the Peralta Land Grant. Reaves' home in Toltec does not look to be the home of a rich man.

I am not one who believes that the Dutchman had a super rich mine, or mines, but if I am wrong then I would vote for the Goldfield mine as being it.

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Re: newbie here

Post by ArmchairHuntress »

[I am not one who believes that the Dutchman had a super rich mine, or mines, but if I am wrong then I would vote for the Goldfield mine as being it.

Jim Hamrick[/quote]

Yeah, one of my other questions would have been "how would one know beyond a shadow of a doubt" that they had found Jake's mine? What one, or several signs would it be? I did find a good discussion about that here at the forum.

In a way, it's a Catch-22, isn't it? I don't think that the majority of the interested will ever be satisfied with pinning it down to one exact mine, unless irrefutable proof does show up. And in a way, who would want the mystery to end? <g>
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Post by murphy »

Welcome Armchairhuntress,
If you have the opportunity, pick up Thomas Glover's book "The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz. It's a great place to start down this crazy road. In it he has an ore analysis of a specimen supposedly taken from under Waltz bed after he died. It was compared to several known deposits in the area and was found to be unique. I would think that to be proved to be Jake's mine not only would the clues have to all fit but the ore would have to match also. Assuming there is ore. There are many abandoned prospect holes and mines in the mountains in and around the Superstitions, I am sure there are just as many that have been covered up by earthquakes, landslides or time or even by the hand of man. That may be why it has not been definetly identified. There have been lots of claims of finding the LDM but they all have the same story, no gold. And that is what keeps the search exciting. Happy Hunting!
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Post by JIM HAMRICK »

It is near impossible to prove a legend unless you find papers in the mine that were written by Jacob. Thank about this, I have seen figures reputed to be production quantities from mines in Goldfield but where are any production amounts for the other "mines" in the Superstitions. Even in the 1880's the ultimate buyer of gold were the U.S. mints and they kept records. I am sure that production quantities were recorded for other mines in the area so any bonanza would be a hard secret to hide The only mines that might fit the profile would be the mines in Goldfield.

The only ore claimed to be from the Dutchman's mine is jewelry ore that was made into a match box. While this is a beautiful specimen it shows that the Waltz was highgrading the ore no matter its source and only taking choice specimens. Also where are the placer areas that had nuggets the size of bird eggs. I would love to find gold like this it would make me want to get my shovel, screens and a sluice out and do a little placering. If Waltz found this amount of placer gold were are the records?

I have wondered in my mind what it would take to convence most of the Dutch Hunters that you have found the mine. I can not come up with any thing short of dumping a ton or higrade ore in their laps (this would have to match the match box matrix of course). I don't think this will ever happen.

Jim Hamrick
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Post by djui5 »

Another thing I haven't seen discussed is that the ore found under his bed was compared to local mine ore, but what about the rest of the places he'd been? California, Mexico, etc. It's highly possible he found ore somewhere else and brought it here.

But, then you have to reason, if he did that, why would he tell Rhiney and Julia about his mine in the supers? She took care of him, why would he lie to her on his death bed? He would have no reason I could think of. It just dosen't make sense that he would make all this up before he died to cover up finding ore somewhere else.

Another thing I find puzzling about all of this is why Julia was selling maps. Was it for more $$? This was before she went into the mountains? If it was after, it's pretty obvious, but if she sold maps before, then why? She had money from selling her business/etc.

Sorry to "sidetrack" the thread.
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Post by murphy »

Randy,
Julia didn't start to sell maps until she realized that she couldn't find the mine herself. By that time she had sold her bakery and was most likely broke. I still think though that she would not try to give very accurate information on the maps, just in case.
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Re: newbie

Post by djui5 »

murphy wrote:Randy,
Julia didn't start to sell maps until she realized that she couldn't find the mine herself. By that time she had sold her bakery and was most likely broke. I still think though that she would not try to give very accurate information on the maps, just in case.

Ok, that clears that up :)


I agree they were fakes btw. It would be like someone today publishing a book with their detailed directions to the mine :lol:
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Post by ArmchairHuntress »

That's right, I guess the ore would be the deciding factor, wouldn't it? I too have wondered if perhaps Jake's gold came from someplace else other than the Superstitions and surrounding area. Didn't all the geologists agree that there shouldn't be any gold found in the Superstitions to begin with? I guess that has been proved wrong, however! How do you account for that?

Just heard this morning that a most beautiful part of Arizona that I have been to before is burning, in '99 a friend and I went to Sedona for a benefit concert and a looooonnnnng weekend, the concert was great, we did a pink jeep tour, went to Oak Creek Canyon, and Slide Rock park. Today I hear that Oak Creek Canyon has burned all the way up to the river. I am sorry to hear that, and hope that no lives are lost.
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Post by zentull »

Thomas Glovers book does a nice job on covering those bases concerning the various places supposedly Waltz acquired his gold. I do not know if there are any samples of massacre ore that are available still. I was with someone who found a piece of ore with some color in massacre canyon, I have not seen or heard from him since 1979. It is probably sitting on a shelf somewhere.
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Ramses' LDM Site and other observations

Post by padutchman »

Greetings to all. I also am a newbie to the Forum but long time LDM enthusiast and thought I might throw in my two pennyweights on the Ramses book and some of the responses posted.

I have read the book and in my humble opinion, John Ramses presents as good an argument for his reading of the LDM map clues as any author to date. His analysis is easier to accept than Kenworthy's detailed and technical analysis, however, I make that comment having no research or practical experience with Spanish mapmaking or monument-marking protocols that the Spanish Royalty may have required.

I guess that the validity of treasure maps is like beauty........ the reality is in the eyes of the beholder. Whether maps and drawings are accurate and true or not, it does not surprise me that separate individuals can apply the same clues and the same map and find a different potential treasure site.

It also does not surprise me that the Salt River Reservation authorities would restrict access to the Red Mountain site after Ramses published his book. I'm sure they have concerns that many folks will now be attracted to the spot and some individuals will not respect the privilege of access to private property or sacred sites. If the Red Mountain site is the LDM and has rich ore, SRR authorities might want to keep it a secret. If the site is the LDM and nothing of mineral value remains, the SRR authorities still might want to keep it a secret until the release of that information might be to their best advantage, for example, a promotion to provide a draw for other business activities. Even if the site wasn't the LDM, Ramses' book certainly lays the groundwork for such a promotion.

I see two distinct issues with the LDM dilemma: gold source and approach route; the source being the most important and the priority for a successful search. I agree with other posters I've read on the Forum: with or without matching clues, the proof of the source of the gold that Waltz possessed will be the discovery of a new chunk of ore. Even if found, the gold source may not be what is commonly referred to as the LDM. The identification of Jacob's cave, camp, cache, and access trail are separate discoveries that may or may not be helpful to identify the gold ore source. But that is just my opinion.
Respectfully,

Bill
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