The Jake

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late49er
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The Jake

Postby late49er » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:50 am

All,

In reading Dr. Glover`s book I am a bit puzzeled by his conclusion that the Holme`s version of events is possible while the traditional account of Jake`s encounter with the Peralta`s and the LDM is not possible.

For the life of me I can`t really figure just why the traditional account cannot be true if one accepts the possiblity that the Jake simply rearranged a few things to obscure the total picture.

Obviously I believe there is more truth in the Ely version of events than the Holmes version. This is not to say the Ely version or other views are totally accurate.

Perhaps his conclusion is since Holme`s version is simpler then it has a greater chance of being true.

Any help would be appreciated.


Thanks,


Late49er

murphy
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Postby murphy » Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:52 pm

Late
Don't have my notes with me but I think part of the discrepency is the dates when he could have been in Mexico conflicting with the dates of his known wherabouts.
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The Jake

Postby late49er » Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:54 pm

Murphy,

Thanks for the information. I have been out of pocket for a few days and just read your response.

Good point. I guess from where Glover is coming from the discrepency regarding the dates Jake was in Mexcio are pivotal.

Not so sure about that but even if he could not have been in Mexico at the times attributed to him, given all the mis-information surrounding all accounts of the LDM, wonder why this is so importent.

I guess I just find more truth in the Peralta/Waltz connection than I do in the Holmes account.


Regards,


Late49er

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Postby zentull » Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:09 pm

I think the thing overlooked or perhaps remains unspoken is that Waltz resided in the same general area as a number of Peraltas during his time in Arizona. The story may have been about a Peralta from Mexico who ran into trouble in central Arizona. I believe the Peralta story in the Holmes camp came from information from one of the Petrasches or Julia through the Roberts. The Holmes manuscript gives little, much like the Magill story, in solid information. I believe only Dick and Brownie to a lesser extent, knew the real story.

It seems the one camp tried awful hard to change the character of a number of principle players with innuendo and remarks, to keep certain information from being passed around. In the end it really didn't matter, but imagine how intense the competition between those 2 groups was back in the day.

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Postby LARRY WEBB » Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:24 pm

Late49/Zentull

I believe a lot of the confusion over the years has to do with there being
two set of Germans, Jacob and Ludi, Waltz and Wieser. I think I read
somewhere, someone help me here, that Jacob and Ludi were the ones
that were in the card game story down in Mexico. I also believe that Jacob
and Ludi were the ones that the story of the nephew being killed and
buried by the spring that Dick Holmes found with chain around his neck.
Now, if that is true, where does that leave Brownie's story about the
death bed confession? Does anyone know or can add to these stories?

Larry

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Postby late49er » Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:07 pm

Hi Larry,

Suspect Waltz was not in Mexico as the traditional accounts suggest. Having said that the Holmes account is really hard to accept. Believe the Holmes account is basically just an accumulation of information that was floating around at the time and a bit of creativity thrown into the stew to make it taste good.

Believe Waltz did have contact with the Peralta`s through a third party, most likely another German, the contacts were made in Arizona, most likely in the Superstituions themselves.

Zentull has a great point in regards to this issue.


Regards,


Late49er

LARRY WEBB
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Postby LARRY WEBB » Mon Nov 21, 2005 9:59 pm

Late49

You know I've had problems trying to figure out the whole Julia and Dick
Holmes picture. Rhiney was always mad at Dick and the problem of what
if Julia did have the gold because she tried to pen the gold being stole on
a couple of other people and then said she found the gold by the front
gate and dropped the charges. Her being a black woman and trying to
explain $5000 in gold would have been difficult. What if Dick worked a deal
with her to cash the gold for her for a percentage and cut out the Petrasches. A lot more could have been going on behind the scenes that
anyone could have dreamed. Maybe she gave him a little info, to be cut if
he found the mine because she was getting nowhere with the Petrasches
after a couple of tries.

Larry

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the Jake

Postby murphy » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:15 am

I have read several times about a legal battle between Julia and Dick Holmes over the gold left by Waltz. Are there existing court records documenting this?
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The Jake

Postby late49er » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:32 pm

Great questions. Don`t really have a clue about the gold Waltz left under his bed or the ensuing free for all. Have opinions about the type of gold deposit it came from but that is not germane to this discussion. Maybe someone out there can comment on this.

Know it has been said before but it bears repeating as far as we know no one has used what Holmes or Julia said to find the mine. Wonder why?


Regards,


Late49er

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Das Crooked Trail

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:20 pm

Late, Murph and Larry, :)

Just from following the same stories you guys have read, I would guess that Dick Holmes had no clue where Waltz's mine was. That would be because Waltz did not say anything to him.

On the other hand, it seems likely he followed Julia and Rhiney on their first trip to the Supes. If he followed the two of them on there first trip, it
makes sense that he continued to follow them later. She and Rhiney were lost, so Holmes became lost.

The answer to your question is: While we have all read the same words, we have each come away with a different understanding of what we have read or heard. When Julia and Rhiney listened to Waltz, they both understood what he said, just a little differently for each. The farther they got from his spoken words, the farther apart their understanding of what he had said became.

It was inevitable that they led everyone farther and farther from the mine. It's still going on today.

Not really having a dog in this fight, it is easy for me to offer up these opinions. I doubt anyone will prove me wrong anytime soon, but it's possible I could be proved right.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

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Postby djui5 » Tue May 16, 2006 9:59 pm

LARRY WEBB wrote:Late49/Zentull

I believe a lot of the confusion over the years has to do with there being
two set of Germans, Jacob and Ludi, Waltz and Wieser.

Larry



This might explain the confusion about sending $200,000 to his sister in Germany, and the actual $7,000 that was sent to Kansas........
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari

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The Jake

Postby late49er » Wed May 17, 2006 6:05 pm

Hello Randy,

I enjoyed reading your post. It is always good to get a new perspective on things.

Believe you indicated that you are new to all of this. A few authors you may find as good source`s would be Sims Ely, Jim Bark, Barry Storm, and Walt Glasser. Really these folks had great insights into what was going on in the Sup`s and were involved not only in sharing their experiences but preserving the beauty and grandeur of some very special places.

See you are a mix engineer in Mesa. Not sure what a mix engineer is but I had some close friends who lived in Mesa and worked with TRW. They were propellent engineers. They did a lot of work up here in Reno. They worked with HMX and some other powerful stuff. Imagine HMX could blow some pretty big holes in the ground. Really fine gentlemen. Miss them a lot.

Anyway good luck to you and I hope you find your journey rewarding.


Regards,


Late49er

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Re: The Jake

Postby djui5 » Wed May 17, 2006 7:30 pm

late49er wrote:Hello Randy,

I enjoyed reading your post. It is always good to get a new perspective on things.

Believe you indicated that you are new to all of this. A few authors you may find as good source`s would be Sims Ely, Jim Bark, Barry Storm, and Walt Glasser. Really these folks had great insights into what was going on in the Sup`s and were involved not only in sharing their experiences but preserving the beauty and grandeur of some very special places.



Yes, I'm new :) Thanks much for the advice. I have a lot of reading to do for sure.

See you are a mix engineer in Mesa. Not sure what a mix engineer is but I had some close friends who lived in Mesa and worked with TRW. They were propellent engineers. They did a lot of work up here in Reno. They worked with HMX and some other powerful stuff. Imagine HMX could blow some pretty big holes in the ground. Really fine gentlemen. Miss them a lot.

Anyway good luck to you and I hope you find your journey rewarding.


Regards,


Late49er


I mix records for bands. I also do other things, but mixing is my speciality. The mix process happens after the initial recording of their instruments. I'm just another piece of the puzzle in the making of an album :)

Thanks for the kind words.
Randy Wright

Hobbiest LDM seeker

Mesa, AZ



"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."

Enzo Ferrari

late49er
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The Jake

Postby late49er » Fri May 19, 2006 9:37 am

Hello Randy,

Just wanted to mention to you that a good place to pick up books on the
LDM is e-bay. Sometimes you can get really good deals there on out of print publications.

Remember a while back I was able to pick up a copy of Sims Ely`s book, the Lost Dutchman Mine, that was published in London and was originally sold to a gentleman in Rhodesia years ago. Not sure what Rhodesia is today. Anyway I really enjoyed reading the book and it is fascinating to see how many lives the legend has touched. Not only that but I only paid $5.00 for it and it is in really good shape. I have considered giving it to my son for Christmas but I will probably weaken and keep it myself. He is a cracker jack Geologist and helicopter pilot. Just about killed me recently with a hard landing but I will bounce back.

I believe you can obtain Walt Glasser`s notes from the museum in Apache Junction. Not sure if it is available anywhere else. Believe Mr. Glasser is far more importent to things than anyone can imagine. He helped keep safe things worth saving. Great Man.

Again good luck. A lot of good information on this board. These folks really know a lot about the tradition of the LDM, me I am just a amateur.


Regards,


Late49er

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Postby djui5 » Fri May 19, 2006 10:48 pm

Funny you mention E-bay. I was just on there a couple days ago looking for Elys book. Only copies I could find were $150, $200 and $500!!!

I'll hold out until I can find one cheaper :)

Interesting note about Walts notes. I'll have to go check those out. I've been there, but was yappin on the cell phone and didn't get to see much. Also, I didn't know much about the dutchman back then.

This site is great for sure! I've allready found a ton of good info on here that I didn't know before.

Thanks for your help :) It's appreciated.
Randy Wright

Hobbiest LDM seeker

Mesa, AZ



"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."

Enzo Ferrari

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books

Postby late49er » Sat May 20, 2006 8:02 am

Hi Randy,

I have seen those prices also. I guess they are about right if you are buying from a bookstore, etc., Those folks have to make a living also.

Tell you what I have more copies of his book than I know what to do with. Just send me a postage paid package envelope to the college and I will be happy to give you a copy. It will be a pretty worn book but believe it has some good notes in it.

Have a couple of signed books but those are very special to me and my family and are kept safe back in the south.

As you get into all of this you can do something for me. When you read the Bark Notes look at the preface where he states,"I wish to say that the following statements are in no sense fiction, they are a collection of stories relating to what is probably the richest deposit of gold ore ever worked on by man". Always felt that was somewhat of an odd statement from a man who was familiar with gold deposits to make. How does he have any idea the deposit is that rich?

One would almost think that perhaps he had seen the deposit and what was to follow was just stories surrounding the legend.

There is a very real distinction between stories and fiction.

Let me know what you think.

Enjoy the book.


Regards,



Late49er



Just mail it to the college:

Ben Davis
The National Judicial College
Judicial College Building/MS 358
Reno, Nevada 89557

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djui5
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Postby djui5 » Sat May 20, 2006 6:08 pm

Ben,
Thank you sir! I'm forever endebted to you :)

I'll get an envelope out shortly.
Randy Wright

Hobbiest LDM seeker

Mesa, AZ



"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."

Enzo Ferrari

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The Jake

Postby murphy » Mon May 22, 2006 6:06 pm

Randy,
A great source for out of print books is www.addall.com/used/. I have found several Dutchman related books much cheaper than e-bay and they usually have a selection to choose from. Some of them have notes in them from past hunters which makes it interesting. Good luck!
murphy
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Postby djui5 » Mon May 22, 2006 6:07 pm

Thanks!
Randy Wright

Hobbiest LDM seeker

Mesa, AZ



"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."

Enzo Ferrari