Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch Death Certificates

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novice
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Julia Thomas and Rhinehart Petrasch Death Certificates

Postby novice » Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:11 am

Not sure where to post anymore to get EVERYONE'S input. If the double posting keeps up much longer the Search Function will become extremely difficult to use!

I'm sure some of you are aware of this site (Free Site) but for those of you who are not, you might find something interesting here. You can view images of Death Certificates of Persons in Arizona who have been dead for over 50 years (Up until about 1954 or 55). The early dates are sketchy (Before about 1914)

http://genealogy.az.gov/

A few that I have looked at include those for Rhieny, Herman and Gottfriet Petrasch, Julia Thomas and Albert Schaffer, Adolph Ruth, John Chuning, Silverlock, etc.

A couple that I found interesting were Rhinehart and Julia's.
There has been some discussion about the age of Rhiney. Was he a boy of 16-18 or a man of 25-27? From his death certificate, we would conclude he was 25 in August of 1892. The birth date information was supplied by his brother Herman. Also there are some interesting details of his suicide. P. S. Julia would have been 29?

Julia's death certificate was also interesting to me. A Jewish connection, her home on 137 West Jackson, the recordeded birth place of her father, the name Iseral, Albert going by A. S. Isreal, etc. (A lot for me to chew on taken in context of the other information we have, American Israelites, the probate of her estate, etc.)

If it all makes sense, I would appreciate anyone's thoughts.

Garry

bill711
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Julia and Rhinny,s death certicficet

Postby bill711 » Sun Sep 11, 2005 11:15 am

Good score Novice; and interesting tidbit thank you. We have the surname isreal here in the Fort Smith, Ark. and the Sallisaw Ok. area. They are some indian too. Thank,s Bill 8)

LDM
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Iseral

Postby LDM » Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:34 pm

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Last edited by LDM on Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Julia Thomas

Postby novice » Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:30 pm

LDM,

Thanks for the reply. It answers a lot of my questions! I'm amazed at the type and the depth of information that you have collected and filed in your memory! You and Aurum must be brothers!

I know that there are a lot of questions below but I couldn't resist.

The documents I have access to are limited so please be patient.

1. The photo shown of Julia on Page 122 Corbin (2002);

Do you know whether the photo came from the Emil Wetzel collection? I noticed Dr. Glover did not publish the photo so I wasn't sure if he didn't have access to it or whether it was suspect? I could find no reference to the source in Corbin.

2. Do you know whether Julia has a stone in the Cemetery?

3. Did the fact that the location of the Philadelphia Church of Israel in Phoenix was 137 W. Jackson street come from City Directories, Newspaper articles or other sources?


I know the property at 137 Jackson has been referred to as a boarding house in various literature. Do you know where the documentation for this comes from? City Directories? Is this the homestead property Julia spoke of in her divorce proceedings? Did Emil Thomas build the house?

4. The name Iseral on the Death Certificate?

I was curious about the spelling also but the clerk wrote (the image I have is not typed) it clearly after Julia's name and she repeated it again in the informant block as A. S. Iseral (Albert Schafer). In the 1910 Census we find Albert listed as A. S. Isreal. You are surely correct when you say the clerk made a mistake.

5. The marriage certificate shown on Page 126 in Corbin (2002);

I see neither race, date of birth or place of birth listed on this document. Would there have been a supplemental document filed with the marriage record that Corbin did not publish? If so would you happen to have a reference for this supplemental document?

The name Julia Corn is plain but I realize that it could easily be misspelled! The father's name on the image of Julia's Death Certificate that I have is pretty clear and it appears to be Kaln or Koln. I assume this is a last name though only her mother's first name is given.

6. As far as the age of Julia, I have access only to the 1900 and 1910 Census along with the Death Certificate. You probably have additional references?

The Death Certificate gives Julia's Birth date as December 25 and her age as 54. She died on December 22, 1917 and this indicates that her birth year would have been 1862. She would have been 55 in three days. In the 1900 Census Julia lists her birth in December 1862 and in the 1910 Census she was 47 on April 1, 1910, which if we use the month of December, it would make her birth year 1863. In each case the information may have been supplied by her husband Albert Schafer.

7. Other documents list her birth in the Atchafalaya basin of Louisiana.

Can you share possible references that identify the Atchafalaya Basin of Louisiana as her birth place? I have been unable to locate Julia in the 1870 or 1880 census and she should be there. Any clues might help my searches. I was wondering if since Julia was born in Louisiana in 1862 (1865?) whether she was born into slavery or her mother was a slave? I suspect there were Cajun areas in Louisiana where there were free blacks? A German father and a black female in Louisiana during the Civil War seems at best strange? Surely Julia's mother couldn't speak German.

Sorry about so many questions!

Garry Cundiff

LDM
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Julia

Postby LDM » Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:13 pm

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Postby novice » Tue Sep 13, 2005 2:51 pm

LDM

Thanks for the additional information and tips!

I realize that I'm missing much not having personal contacts within the LDM community. I would be like a kid in a candy store if I could view the collections of these descendants (Thomas, Steinegger, Crump, Wetzel, etc.) I'm just too late on the scene and so far all of my research is based on public documents available on the internet and libraries along with the published accounts and their references by various authors.

When we were in Phoenix last winter, we did get to the Arizona State Archives but only looked around. Since my LDM exposure at that time was Corbin's (1990) book and the Robert Blair's Book that I had read twenty five years ago, I would not have even know where to start. I could spend a month in Phoenix doing nothing but research but that's not going to happen so I'm stuck in Missouri doing the best I can.

I believe that public documents form the bones of most stories and the personal accounts (that you are speaking of) put the meat on the bones. This is what changes a story from a dry recitation of dates to an exciting account.

Public documents can also either shore up a story or they can show there is very little basis for a certain account. Their use in this manner (in my eyes) is probably their strongest feature when dealing with the LDM history!

I don't want to belabor the point about Julia's age but in each of the three documents I listed, the information came from either Albert Schafer or possibly Julia herself. I'm not saying that Albert was not in error but I do believe his information would be better than something from Clara or Emil Wetzel related years later, unless it included an unnamed document. Just my opinion which may not be worth much.

I was certainly reading Albert Schafer wrong until I got your account. I thought he was probably a screwball and loner. I now find that he had a network of family members, was associated with a legitimate religious organization (Still active today), might have even been an ordained minister, etc. (A lot of avenues for research).

I have started doing some research on the Steineggers, Henshaws and Emil Thomas, but again I'm stuck with public documents and that which has been shared previously on the LDM discussion board. I'll look forward to your inputs it I ever get any thoughts put together!

I don't understand your last paragraph but I hope I would never intentionally violate any trust you have shown me.

Thanks for your patience,

Garry Cundiff

P.S. I certainly enjoyed and learned something from your post regarding the early use of the Metric System in the U. S. Military. It has just been a hard sell in the U. S. and now with computers making the conversions so simple, I wonder if it ever will catch on?

Gregory E. Davis
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Postby Gregory E. Davis » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:51 pm

Novice: Next time you are in Arizona let me know and I will have you over to see the files on Thomas, Schaffer, and Petrasch. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis, Tempe, Arizona

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Thomas, Schaffer, and Petrasch Research

Postby novice » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:57 am

Greg

Thanks for the gracious offer! I don't know when we will be visiting Arizona again but we will certainly keep your invitation in mind.

Some things I'm working on, concerns the events around the time of Waltz's death. Mostly just to verify that two people (Albert Schafer and Frank Alkire) reportedly involved, were physically present in Phoenix in October 1891.

I'm sure this has already been done but it certainly won't hurt me to retrace the trail. Maybe I'll get lucky and stumble on to something new?

Thanks again,

Garry

Joe Ribaudo
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Das Candy Store

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:27 pm

Gary,

If you have not been to Greg's home, here is the scoop:

It is "Dutch Hunter's" heaven. It's worth a special trip to Arizona, just to spend some time in the "candy store". You are wasting a lot of precious research time, that Greg could shorten on any subject.

Greg is a gracious and generous host. You ask, and he will say: I have the file right here. Help yourself.

I think that is a pretty accurate description of what you have to look forward to.

Take care,

Joe