bill
bill
Joe; I beg to differ? ded has a brain to reason with He has the evidence in front of his eyes and he still blindly refuses to see it. He is not a little boy he is suppose to be a man. He should act like one. NOW; when a man deny,s the truth and spews this poisonous venom of the leftist then he is stealing the truth and lying too. Bill
-
dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
bill,
thanks for your kind remarks,but flattery will get you nowhere.because one has a different viewpoint on things doesnt necessarilly mean hes lying,and i cant really see ewhat im supposed to have stolen.i take from your posts that you are a bushsupporter, thats fine, but what is bush ?..a politician...what do politicians do?(whatever side ofthe fence they are on) they lie. they cheat , they steal from the electorate.it is what they do, they always have ,they always will.label me with whatever tag you feel warranted,whether i take it to heart or treat it seriously is another matter.stick to thefarts and asses posts bill, you appear to know much more about thosesubjects than any other.
thanks for your kind remarks,but flattery will get you nowhere.because one has a different viewpoint on things doesnt necessarilly mean hes lying,and i cant really see ewhat im supposed to have stolen.i take from your posts that you are a bushsupporter, thats fine, but what is bush ?..a politician...what do politicians do?(whatever side ofthe fence they are on) they lie. they cheat , they steal from the electorate.it is what they do, they always have ,they always will.label me with whatever tag you feel warranted,whether i take it to heart or treat it seriously is another matter.stick to thefarts and asses posts bill, you appear to know much more about thosesubjects than any other.
-
dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
joe,
are you saying that you realise that the "excuses" used to invade iraq were indeed bogus,lies whatever?if you are im a bit surprised you are admitting it,thats all.
if your vision of what will occur in iraq, post withdrawal of allied troops,free elections etc then i could well be inclined to agree with your course of action. but....it seems to me that iraq is ..and will remain virtually ungovernable and that we are in largepart responsible for that. this, as is obvious, is not a conventional war( thewar on terrorism as opposed to the war on iraq) the very nature of terrorism demands that its combatants are shadowy figures,most ofthe time we dont know who they are until they strike.part of the war would be denying these guys (and women) succour.hence the winning of hearts and minds ofthe ordinary iraqi.i repeat we are not doing that.every time we blast a particulartarget, kill 15 terrorists and maim kill twice as many of the normal populace by "accident" (friendly fire) we inflame the people we should be trying to rally to ourcause.
i think i asked you tthis question before....if there is no negotiation with terrorists, why does this government repeatedly urge russia to negotiate with chechyan terrorists(seperatists) and refuse to extradite suspected chechyan terrorists?
i dont believe in bribingor running from these people. but the war cannot bewon by brute force alone, andeventually the only peaceful solution wuill come about by diplomacy and negotiation and bty dealing with root causes.
as a side issue,do we really care whether a regime is corrupt, brutal , oppressive etc, or are they allowed to act as they like as long as their our friends?of course im thinking of saudi here ,a regime as corrupt as they come, and brutal too and of course oppressive also.
why do some revise ,edit etc their posts and some dont you ask? prob laziness i guess, and partly maybe because on here,same as most places, opinions are allready fixed, facts are"facts" whether they are true or not to every (or most) individuals.i dont see this forum as anything other than an oral exchange of ideas as opposed to a literary one.hence noteverything is in the proper order. things come to mind maybe towards end of post, thingsthat perhaps shpould been includedearlier etc. in other words laziness
im glad you dont think im aliar and a theif(even tho we disagree vehemently on this subject)and am grateful foru mentioning it. maybe im nisguided, maybe im not,i say it as i feel it,no doubtsameas you do.
are you saying that you realise that the "excuses" used to invade iraq were indeed bogus,lies whatever?if you are im a bit surprised you are admitting it,thats all.
if your vision of what will occur in iraq, post withdrawal of allied troops,free elections etc then i could well be inclined to agree with your course of action. but....it seems to me that iraq is ..and will remain virtually ungovernable and that we are in largepart responsible for that. this, as is obvious, is not a conventional war( thewar on terrorism as opposed to the war on iraq) the very nature of terrorism demands that its combatants are shadowy figures,most ofthe time we dont know who they are until they strike.part of the war would be denying these guys (and women) succour.hence the winning of hearts and minds ofthe ordinary iraqi.i repeat we are not doing that.every time we blast a particulartarget, kill 15 terrorists and maim kill twice as many of the normal populace by "accident" (friendly fire) we inflame the people we should be trying to rally to ourcause.
i think i asked you tthis question before....if there is no negotiation with terrorists, why does this government repeatedly urge russia to negotiate with chechyan terrorists(seperatists) and refuse to extradite suspected chechyan terrorists?
i dont believe in bribingor running from these people. but the war cannot bewon by brute force alone, andeventually the only peaceful solution wuill come about by diplomacy and negotiation and bty dealing with root causes.
as a side issue,do we really care whether a regime is corrupt, brutal , oppressive etc, or are they allowed to act as they like as long as their our friends?of course im thinking of saudi here ,a regime as corrupt as they come, and brutal too and of course oppressive also.
why do some revise ,edit etc their posts and some dont you ask? prob laziness i guess, and partly maybe because on here,same as most places, opinions are allready fixed, facts are"facts" whether they are true or not to every (or most) individuals.i dont see this forum as anything other than an oral exchange of ideas as opposed to a literary one.hence noteverything is in the proper order. things come to mind maybe towards end of post, thingsthat perhaps shpould been includedearlier etc. in other words laziness
im glad you dont think im aliar and a theif(even tho we disagree vehemently on this subject)and am grateful foru mentioning it. maybe im nisguided, maybe im not,i say it as i feel it,no doubtsameas you do.
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
The Running Kind
DED,
I see now why you don't vote.
Let's assume you are right. Does that mean you have given up on our political process, or do you search for an honest man? Do you only voice your opinion here, or do you speak out in other forums? If they are all the same, the worst of the worst, do you feel that Saddam could be President, and it would make no difference? That's a serious question.
If it would make a difference, what would it be? Would you sit at home and accept that difference, or would you try to change things?
OK! We have now established that there may be a difference between a mass murderer and Wally Peepers. Given a choice between the two, for President, any sane person would pick Peepers. The difference between the two is degrees of bad and good. Both men are on the scale, somewhere.
Many young men did not want to go to Vietnam. A good many more, voluteered to go, like me. Cassius Clay (Ali) refused to go, but stayed here and fought the system. Bill Clinton, decided to run away, from both fights. Looks like degrees of good and bad to me. Not the worst, not the best, but somewhere in between.
That's the way we pick a leader here. We have some people running for the position who are both good and bad, not perfect. We decide what is most important to us and which person will be closest to that degree of good, and then we vote. If enough people feel the same as us, we will win. If enough people in this country are like you, Bill and I will win.
Is America great, or what?
Respectfully,
Joe
I see now why you don't vote.
Let's assume you are right. Does that mean you have given up on our political process, or do you search for an honest man? Do you only voice your opinion here, or do you speak out in other forums? If they are all the same, the worst of the worst, do you feel that Saddam could be President, and it would make no difference? That's a serious question.
If it would make a difference, what would it be? Would you sit at home and accept that difference, or would you try to change things?
OK! We have now established that there may be a difference between a mass murderer and Wally Peepers. Given a choice between the two, for President, any sane person would pick Peepers. The difference between the two is degrees of bad and good. Both men are on the scale, somewhere.
Many young men did not want to go to Vietnam. A good many more, voluteered to go, like me. Cassius Clay (Ali) refused to go, but stayed here and fought the system. Bill Clinton, decided to run away, from both fights. Looks like degrees of good and bad to me. Not the worst, not the best, but somewhere in between.
That's the way we pick a leader here. We have some people running for the position who are both good and bad, not perfect. We decide what is most important to us and which person will be closest to that degree of good, and then we vote. If enough people feel the same as us, we will win. If enough people in this country are like you, Bill and I will win.
Is America great, or what?
Respectfully,
Joe
DED,
Here is a portion of a letter from a USMC Cobra Pilot on duty in Iraq. His words explain my views much more clearly than I could ever do. It's quite long but worth the read.
"I did not say that our country, its leaders, military or intelligence services are perfect or have never made mistakes, because throughout history they have, and will continue to do so, despite their best efforts. The Nation is more than the sum of its citizens and leaders, more than its history, present, or future; a nation has contemporary values which change as its leaders change, but it also has timeless character, ideals forged with the blood and courage of patriots. To quote the Pledge of Allegiance, our nation was founded "under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." As Americans, we have more freedom than we can handle sometimes.
If you are an atheist you might have a problem with that whole "under God" part; if you are against liberating the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Asia, all of Europe (twice), and the former Soviet bloc, then perhaps the "liberty and justice for all" section might leave you fuming. Our Nation, throughout its history, has watered the seeds of democracy on many continents, with blood, even when the country was in disagreement about those decisions. Disagreement is a wonderful thing. To disagree with your neighbors and your government is at the very heart of freedom. Citizens have disagreed about every important and controversial decision made by their leaders throughout history. Truman had the courage to drop two nuclear weapons in order to end the largest war in history, and then, by his actions, prevented the Soviets from extinguishing the light of democracy in Eastern Europe, Berlin. Lincoln preserved our country through civil war; Reagan knew in his heart that freedom is a more powerful weapon than oppression. Leaders are paid to make difficult, sometimes controversial decisions. History will judge the success of their actions and the purity of their intent in a way that is impossible at the present moment. In your disagreement and debate about the current conflict, however, be very careful that you do not jeopardize your nation or those who serve. The best time to use your freedom of speech to debate difficult decisions is before they are made, not when the lives of your countrymen are on the line.
You have the right to say that you "support the troops" but oppose the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have the right to vote for Senator John Kerry because you believe that he has an exit strategy for Iraq, or because you just cannot stand President Bush. You have the right to vote for President George W. Bush if you believe that he has done a good job over the last four years. You might even decide that you do not want to vote at all and would rather avoid the issues as much as possible. That is certainly your option, and doing nothing is the only option for many people in this world.
It is not my place to tell you how to vote. But I can explain to you the truth about what is going on around you. We know, and have known from the beginning, that the ultimate success or failure of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as the future of those countries, rests solely on the shoulders of the Iraqi and Afghani people. If someone complains that we should not have gone to war with Saddam Hussein, that our intelligence was bad, that President Bush's motives were impure, then take the appropriate action. Exercise your right to vote for Senator Kerry, but please stop complaining about something that happened over a year ago. The decision to deploy our military in Iraq and Afghanistan is in the past, and while I believe that it is important to the democratic process for our nation to analyze the decisions of our leadership in order to avoid repeating mistakes, it is far more important to focus on the future. The question of which candidate will "get us out of Iraq sooner" should not be a consideration in your mind. YOU SHOULD NOT WANT US OUT OF IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN SOONER. There is only one coherent exit strategy that will make our time here worthwhile and validate the sacrifice of so many of our countrymen. There is only one strategy that has a chance of promoting peace and stabilizing the Middle East. It is the exit strategy of both candidates, though voiced with varying volumes and differing degrees of clarity.
The American military must continue to help train and support the Iraqi Police, National Guard, and Armed Forces. We must continue to give them both responsibility and the authority with which to carry out those responsibilities, so that they eventually can kill or capture the former regime elements and foreign terrorists that are trying to create a radical, oppressive state. We must continue to repair the infrastructure that we damaged during the conflict, and improve the infrastructure that was insufficient when Saddam was in power. We should welcome and encourage partners in the coalition but recognize that many will choose the path of least resistance and opt out; many of our traditional allies have been doing this for years and it should not surprise us. We must respect the citizens of Iraq and help them to understand the meaning of basic human rights, for those are something the average Iraqi has never experienced. We must be respectful of our cultural and religious differences. We must help the Iraqis develop national pride, and most importantly, we must leave this country better than we found it, at the right time, with a chance of success so that its people will have an opportunity to forge their own destiny. We must do all of these things as quickly and efficiently as possible so that we are not seen as occupiers, but rather liberators and helpers. We must communicate this to the world as clearly and frequently as possible, both with words and actions.
If we leave before these things are done, then Iraq will fall into anarchy and possibly plunge the Middle East into another war. The ability of the United States to conduct foreign policy will be severely, and perhaps permanently, degraded. Terrorism will increase, both in America and around the world, as America will have demonstrated that it is not interested in building and helping, only destroying. If we run or exit early, we prove to our enemies that terror is more powerful and potent than freedom. Many nations, like Spain, have already affirmed this in the minds of the terrorists. Our failure, and its consequences, will be squarely on our shoulders as a nation. It will be our fault. If we stay the course and Iraq or Afghanistan falls into civil war on its own, then our hands are clean. As a citizen of the United States I will be able to sleep at night with nothing on my conscience, for I know that I, and my country, have done as much as we could for these people. If we leave early, I will not be able to live with myself, and neither should you. The blood will be on our hands, the failure on our watch.
The bottom line is this: Republican or Democrat, approve or disapprove of the decision to go to war, you need to support our efforts here. You cannot both support the troops and protest their mission. Every time the parent of a fallen Marine gets on CNN with a photo, accusing President Bush of murdering his son, the enemy wins a strategic victory. I cannot begin to comprehend the grief he feels at the death of his son, but he dishonors the memory of my brave brother who paid the ultimate price. That Marine volunteered to serve, no one was drafted. I am proud of my service and that of my peers. I am ashamed of that parent's actions, and I pray to God that if I am killed my parents will stand with pride before the cameras and reaffirm their belief that my life and sacrifice mattered; they loved me dearly and they firmly support the military and its mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. With that statement, they communicate very clearly to our enemies around the world that America is united, that we cannot be intimidated by kidnappings, decapitations and torture, and that we care enough about the Afghani and Iraqi people to give them a chance at democracy and basic human rights. Do not support those that seek failure for us, or seek to trivialize the sacrifices made here. Do not make the deaths of your countrymen be in vain. Communicate to your media and elected officials that you are behind us and our mission. Send letters and encouragement to those who are deployed. When you meet a person that serves you, whether in the armed forces, police, or fire department, show them respect. Thank the spouses around you every day, raising children alone, whose loved ones are deployed. Remember not only those that have paid the ultimate price, but the veterans that bear the physical and emotional scars of defending your freedom. At the very least, follow your mother's advice. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Do not give the enemy a foothold in our Nation's public opinion. He rejoices at Fahrenheit 9/11 and applauds every time an American slams our efforts. The military can succeed here so long as American citizens support us wholeheartedly.
Sleep well on this third anniversary of 9/11, America. Rough men are standing ready to do violence on your behalf. Many of your sons and daughters volunteered to stand watch for you. Not just rough men- the infantry, the Marine grunts, the Special Operations Forces- but lots of eighteen and nineteen year old kids, teenagers, who are far away from home, serving as drivers, supply clerks, analysts, and mechanics. They all have stories, families, and dreams. They miss you, love you, and are putting their lives on the line for you. Do not make their time here, their sacrifice, a waste. Support them, and their mission."
Here is a portion of a letter from a USMC Cobra Pilot on duty in Iraq. His words explain my views much more clearly than I could ever do. It's quite long but worth the read.
"I did not say that our country, its leaders, military or intelligence services are perfect or have never made mistakes, because throughout history they have, and will continue to do so, despite their best efforts. The Nation is more than the sum of its citizens and leaders, more than its history, present, or future; a nation has contemporary values which change as its leaders change, but it also has timeless character, ideals forged with the blood and courage of patriots. To quote the Pledge of Allegiance, our nation was founded "under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." As Americans, we have more freedom than we can handle sometimes.
If you are an atheist you might have a problem with that whole "under God" part; if you are against liberating the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Asia, all of Europe (twice), and the former Soviet bloc, then perhaps the "liberty and justice for all" section might leave you fuming. Our Nation, throughout its history, has watered the seeds of democracy on many continents, with blood, even when the country was in disagreement about those decisions. Disagreement is a wonderful thing. To disagree with your neighbors and your government is at the very heart of freedom. Citizens have disagreed about every important and controversial decision made by their leaders throughout history. Truman had the courage to drop two nuclear weapons in order to end the largest war in history, and then, by his actions, prevented the Soviets from extinguishing the light of democracy in Eastern Europe, Berlin. Lincoln preserved our country through civil war; Reagan knew in his heart that freedom is a more powerful weapon than oppression. Leaders are paid to make difficult, sometimes controversial decisions. History will judge the success of their actions and the purity of their intent in a way that is impossible at the present moment. In your disagreement and debate about the current conflict, however, be very careful that you do not jeopardize your nation or those who serve. The best time to use your freedom of speech to debate difficult decisions is before they are made, not when the lives of your countrymen are on the line.
You have the right to say that you "support the troops" but oppose the war in Iraq and Afghanistan. You have the right to vote for Senator John Kerry because you believe that he has an exit strategy for Iraq, or because you just cannot stand President Bush. You have the right to vote for President George W. Bush if you believe that he has done a good job over the last four years. You might even decide that you do not want to vote at all and would rather avoid the issues as much as possible. That is certainly your option, and doing nothing is the only option for many people in this world.
It is not my place to tell you how to vote. But I can explain to you the truth about what is going on around you. We know, and have known from the beginning, that the ultimate success or failure of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as the future of those countries, rests solely on the shoulders of the Iraqi and Afghani people. If someone complains that we should not have gone to war with Saddam Hussein, that our intelligence was bad, that President Bush's motives were impure, then take the appropriate action. Exercise your right to vote for Senator Kerry, but please stop complaining about something that happened over a year ago. The decision to deploy our military in Iraq and Afghanistan is in the past, and while I believe that it is important to the democratic process for our nation to analyze the decisions of our leadership in order to avoid repeating mistakes, it is far more important to focus on the future. The question of which candidate will "get us out of Iraq sooner" should not be a consideration in your mind. YOU SHOULD NOT WANT US OUT OF IRAQ OR AFGHANISTAN SOONER. There is only one coherent exit strategy that will make our time here worthwhile and validate the sacrifice of so many of our countrymen. There is only one strategy that has a chance of promoting peace and stabilizing the Middle East. It is the exit strategy of both candidates, though voiced with varying volumes and differing degrees of clarity.
The American military must continue to help train and support the Iraqi Police, National Guard, and Armed Forces. We must continue to give them both responsibility and the authority with which to carry out those responsibilities, so that they eventually can kill or capture the former regime elements and foreign terrorists that are trying to create a radical, oppressive state. We must continue to repair the infrastructure that we damaged during the conflict, and improve the infrastructure that was insufficient when Saddam was in power. We should welcome and encourage partners in the coalition but recognize that many will choose the path of least resistance and opt out; many of our traditional allies have been doing this for years and it should not surprise us. We must respect the citizens of Iraq and help them to understand the meaning of basic human rights, for those are something the average Iraqi has never experienced. We must be respectful of our cultural and religious differences. We must help the Iraqis develop national pride, and most importantly, we must leave this country better than we found it, at the right time, with a chance of success so that its people will have an opportunity to forge their own destiny. We must do all of these things as quickly and efficiently as possible so that we are not seen as occupiers, but rather liberators and helpers. We must communicate this to the world as clearly and frequently as possible, both with words and actions.
If we leave before these things are done, then Iraq will fall into anarchy and possibly plunge the Middle East into another war. The ability of the United States to conduct foreign policy will be severely, and perhaps permanently, degraded. Terrorism will increase, both in America and around the world, as America will have demonstrated that it is not interested in building and helping, only destroying. If we run or exit early, we prove to our enemies that terror is more powerful and potent than freedom. Many nations, like Spain, have already affirmed this in the minds of the terrorists. Our failure, and its consequences, will be squarely on our shoulders as a nation. It will be our fault. If we stay the course and Iraq or Afghanistan falls into civil war on its own, then our hands are clean. As a citizen of the United States I will be able to sleep at night with nothing on my conscience, for I know that I, and my country, have done as much as we could for these people. If we leave early, I will not be able to live with myself, and neither should you. The blood will be on our hands, the failure on our watch.
The bottom line is this: Republican or Democrat, approve or disapprove of the decision to go to war, you need to support our efforts here. You cannot both support the troops and protest their mission. Every time the parent of a fallen Marine gets on CNN with a photo, accusing President Bush of murdering his son, the enemy wins a strategic victory. I cannot begin to comprehend the grief he feels at the death of his son, but he dishonors the memory of my brave brother who paid the ultimate price. That Marine volunteered to serve, no one was drafted. I am proud of my service and that of my peers. I am ashamed of that parent's actions, and I pray to God that if I am killed my parents will stand with pride before the cameras and reaffirm their belief that my life and sacrifice mattered; they loved me dearly and they firmly support the military and its mission in Iraq and Afghanistan. With that statement, they communicate very clearly to our enemies around the world that America is united, that we cannot be intimidated by kidnappings, decapitations and torture, and that we care enough about the Afghani and Iraqi people to give them a chance at democracy and basic human rights. Do not support those that seek failure for us, or seek to trivialize the sacrifices made here. Do not make the deaths of your countrymen be in vain. Communicate to your media and elected officials that you are behind us and our mission. Send letters and encouragement to those who are deployed. When you meet a person that serves you, whether in the armed forces, police, or fire department, show them respect. Thank the spouses around you every day, raising children alone, whose loved ones are deployed. Remember not only those that have paid the ultimate price, but the veterans that bear the physical and emotional scars of defending your freedom. At the very least, follow your mother's advice. "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." Do not give the enemy a foothold in our Nation's public opinion. He rejoices at Fahrenheit 9/11 and applauds every time an American slams our efforts. The military can succeed here so long as American citizens support us wholeheartedly.
Sleep well on this third anniversary of 9/11, America. Rough men are standing ready to do violence on your behalf. Many of your sons and daughters volunteered to stand watch for you. Not just rough men- the infantry, the Marine grunts, the Special Operations Forces- but lots of eighteen and nineteen year old kids, teenagers, who are far away from home, serving as drivers, supply clerks, analysts, and mechanics. They all have stories, families, and dreams. They miss you, love you, and are putting their lives on the line for you. Do not make their time here, their sacrifice, a waste. Support them, and their mission."
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
WOW!
Knun,
I don't know who wrote that letter, but I doubt we will ever see it put any better, by anyone.
Thank you for passing it along.
Respectfully,
Joe
I don't know who wrote that letter, but I doubt we will ever see it put any better, by anyone.
Thank you for passing it along.
Respectfully,
Joe
Joe,
That was written by Lt. Kevin Brown. I removed some of the letter since it was written to his Dad. His father had asked him, since he was there, if he could say anything to the American people, on a podium under the lights of the media, what would it be. His father thought the distraction would give him something to take up some of his time. What you read is his son's answer. I was going to use sections for this forum but there is simply no way I could change or subtract from it.
Isn't it too bad the mainstream media didn't publish an article or two about people like this?
That was written by Lt. Kevin Brown. I removed some of the letter since it was written to his Dad. His father had asked him, since he was there, if he could say anything to the American people, on a podium under the lights of the media, what would it be. His father thought the distraction would give him something to take up some of his time. What you read is his son's answer. I was going to use sections for this forum but there is simply no way I could change or subtract from it.
Isn't it too bad the mainstream media didn't publish an article or two about people like this?
bill
Knun; Great going; NObody could have said it better than that boy. NOW DED; back to you and your 1960,s crap. NOW don,t you believe it,s time to QUITE FEELING and start THINKING for a change in your life? YOUR self hatred is very clear to see by us all. YOU need to listen to and call roy masterson who has a program on early 5 or 6 a.m. saturday morning. He,s on clear channal A.M. on the radio. maybe he can help you puke out the deman that,s bothering you. BUT your staying after the 1960,s crap sure won,t. Bill
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Getting The Word Out
Knun,
The time seems ripe for a letter like this to see the light of day.
Is there any reason to keep it private?
Respectfully,
Joe
The time seems ripe for a letter like this to see the light of day.
Is there any reason to keep it private?
Respectfully,
Joe
-
dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
knun,
the letter you quote is ofd itself very moving, and profound,but notwithstanding the truths in it...i dont feel the"my country right or wrong" viewpoint is correct way of thinking. i believe it does matter if the cause is right, i believe it does matter wjhether or not lies have been used as justification for entering the war,any war. becauseitsfor this very reason the youth of this country are being sent to die in a foreignn land.of course if we are there i want us to win,ive never said otherwise.i do notthink its unpatriotic to think or voice the opinion that we should seek a betterway to reach the same result. this goes far beyonfd any political or idealogical issues. im not really interested if its republican ordemocrats that are in power.my view is qwe all have to continue with our lives in spite of our leaders not because of them.
the letter you quote is indeed a very moving letter,i may agree with most of it in principle, but whether i or you or anyone else does also it must beremembered its ONE point of view.the truth is never absolute in anything. the fact remains ,the death toll of the allies is upwards of 1300 i believe,of course every dead individual have mothers, fathers, brothers sisters, friends, children maybe so the casualty list is of course much much higher in real terms.so if the war was embarked upon with lies used as justification,ifthe people ofthis country were lied to, to get their support.what then? of course its better to argue the pros and cons before the conflict begins, but what if the lies,ifindeed they are lies, only come to light after wards or in the middle of the war?should they be ignored until the body bags have all arrived home?and of course if this government have lied to us about this,what else have they lied to us about? and if they have lied, should they be allowed to remain in office one second longer? thats irrespective of which party is in office.
having said that,i pray we are on theright course (i dont believe we are tho) and hope terrorism is destroyed for all time andno more lives are lost.
bill,
the only conflict you were ever involved in was with an empty wine bottle,never mindmy 1960s crap, how about your 2004 crap? i dont mind being analysed, in fact i think id welcome it,preferabley by someone who knew wat they were talking about ,and not by some alcohol befuddled nondescript wretch like youself.
the letter you quote is ofd itself very moving, and profound,but notwithstanding the truths in it...i dont feel the"my country right or wrong" viewpoint is correct way of thinking. i believe it does matter if the cause is right, i believe it does matter wjhether or not lies have been used as justification for entering the war,any war. becauseitsfor this very reason the youth of this country are being sent to die in a foreignn land.of course if we are there i want us to win,ive never said otherwise.i do notthink its unpatriotic to think or voice the opinion that we should seek a betterway to reach the same result. this goes far beyonfd any political or idealogical issues. im not really interested if its republican ordemocrats that are in power.my view is qwe all have to continue with our lives in spite of our leaders not because of them.
the letter you quote is indeed a very moving letter,i may agree with most of it in principle, but whether i or you or anyone else does also it must beremembered its ONE point of view.the truth is never absolute in anything. the fact remains ,the death toll of the allies is upwards of 1300 i believe,of course every dead individual have mothers, fathers, brothers sisters, friends, children maybe so the casualty list is of course much much higher in real terms.so if the war was embarked upon with lies used as justification,ifthe people ofthis country were lied to, to get their support.what then? of course its better to argue the pros and cons before the conflict begins, but what if the lies,ifindeed they are lies, only come to light after wards or in the middle of the war?should they be ignored until the body bags have all arrived home?and of course if this government have lied to us about this,what else have they lied to us about? and if they have lied, should they be allowed to remain in office one second longer? thats irrespective of which party is in office.
having said that,i pray we are on theright course (i dont believe we are tho) and hope terrorism is destroyed for all time andno more lives are lost.
bill,
the only conflict you were ever involved in was with an empty wine bottle,never mindmy 1960s crap, how about your 2004 crap? i dont mind being analysed, in fact i think id welcome it,preferabley by someone who knew wat they were talking about ,and not by some alcohol befuddled nondescript wretch like youself.
bill
ded; Bush did not lie, he went by the word of the cia that bill clintonoid left him with! You are eat up with the 1960,s crap ; you must clean your mind of this if you are ever going to be well. Here you have started your high pitched shricking librel shit trying to shut me up with your accusations and name calling BUT it will do you no good. I do not take drugs or smoke and I have not had a drink of alcohol in over 20 years. Remember this I am trying to help you I am not trying to hurt you BUT you have to face up to your demens and admit you are using this old anti usa crap to keep yourself miserable in your mind. bill
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Liars
DED,
The number is actually 1178 fatalities. Does that make you a liar?
If you have lied, what else have you lied about? If you lied, should you be allowed to continue using your computer for one more second, to spread more lies? You have lied about Bill, and the "wine bottle", and his being " alcohol befuddled". You have lied about him being a "wretch".
You have lied about Lt Brown's letter being about "my country right or wrong". My opinion was, that it had an entirely different message than, "my country right or wrong". Were those words in the letter?
All of this makes you a lier, by your own definition. Those are only a few examples of your lies. No need to go back over your other posts, as you have proven yourself to be a pathological lier, in the last one alone.
You have also lied to us about who you are, as you are not "dutch elm disease". I know "Dutch Elm Disease" and you are not it.
While you are calling President Bush and his administration liers, why don't you ever list all of the other liers, who were telling the same lies?
You could start your list with: The U.N., John Kerry, Bill Clinton, just to name a few. Please start the list of liers as soon as possible, as the world should know. It is important to know who the liers are, which is why I have pointed out that YOU are a lier. Can you prove it is otherwise?
It comes as no surprise that you have taken what you have from the letter. It is the same reasoning you use for everything else. As you are a lier, your words have no meaning. You are the boy who "cried wolf".
Only other liers will believe you.
As this is only my opinion, I could, of course, be wrong. Does that make me a liar too? If so, put me on your list.
Respectfully,
Joe
The number is actually 1178 fatalities. Does that make you a liar?
If you have lied, what else have you lied about? If you lied, should you be allowed to continue using your computer for one more second, to spread more lies? You have lied about Bill, and the "wine bottle", and his being " alcohol befuddled". You have lied about him being a "wretch".
You have lied about Lt Brown's letter being about "my country right or wrong". My opinion was, that it had an entirely different message than, "my country right or wrong". Were those words in the letter?
All of this makes you a lier, by your own definition. Those are only a few examples of your lies. No need to go back over your other posts, as you have proven yourself to be a pathological lier, in the last one alone.
You have also lied to us about who you are, as you are not "dutch elm disease". I know "Dutch Elm Disease" and you are not it.
While you are calling President Bush and his administration liers, why don't you ever list all of the other liers, who were telling the same lies?
You could start your list with: The U.N., John Kerry, Bill Clinton, just to name a few. Please start the list of liers as soon as possible, as the world should know. It is important to know who the liers are, which is why I have pointed out that YOU are a lier. Can you prove it is otherwise?
It comes as no surprise that you have taken what you have from the letter. It is the same reasoning you use for everything else. As you are a lier, your words have no meaning. You are the boy who "cried wolf".
Only other liers will believe you.
As this is only my opinion, I could, of course, be wrong. Does that make me a liar too? If so, put me on your list.
Respectfully,
Joe
DED,
OK, your problem seems to be the reason we are there. I hear you saying that the deaths of combatants and innocents can never ever outweigh the reasons given to start this Iraqi war.
Saddam was continuing to violate something like 20 UN resolutions not the least of which were the resolutions pertaining to WMD. He never explained where tons and tons of chemical agents were. Agents which the world knew he possessed prior to the gulf war. He fired missiles at our aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone almost weekly. Low level Iraqi officials had met with known terrorists. He defied all attempts aimed at forcing him to abide by the cease fire agreement he signed to save his skin after the gulf war. He had murdered millions of people, many his own countrymen, before during and after the first war. He started two wars with his neighbors.
As for support here at home: John Kerry said in 2003 "If he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction..Don’t vote for me." (I for one plan on honoring his request) Clinton said he had WMD. Intelligence at the time said he had WMD. But if you remember the main reason Bush pushed was due to the resolutions that were being violated.
I for one don't see how Bush could strategically let him continue to thumb his nose at the world. What message was sent by prior administrations by letting Saddam call the shots? Do you think Saddam's open rebellion against the entire world was helping or hindering Muslim extremists? I believe he would be more than willing to harbor terrorists intent on attacking us. I believe it was just a matter of time. I believe he was an evil man thirsty for power.
Today do you think the Iraqi people are worse or better off than prior to this conflict? The torture chambers are closed. His two sons are no longer picking girls and women up off the streets to use and kill. The people are finding out what happened to there loved ones, as mass graves are uncovered. People continue to line up to join the police force knowing full well psychopaths have already blown up hundreds like them. They want the freedom of choice we will help them obtain. Do you truly believe the vast majority of the Iraqi people do not think this is a good thing for their Country? It was is a just cause DED. There are 50 million free Iraqi's today. The extremists can and will be put down and sent back to their holes if we persevere and stay the course.
Everytime someone decides to say that we should leave this country, that it was wrong, it helps the scumbag terrorists. Everytime someone says that Bush did this for personal gain or as a vendetta to finish what his father started it helps the terrorists. Everytime someone places the crimes of Abu-Grab in front of the image of a butcher with an innocent person’s head in their hands with the eyes still blinking it helps the terrorists. DED do you not realize that your retoric is the greatest tool these people have. What people like you are saying is what is drawing terrorists to that country like flies to a camel turd. That my friend is the basis for calling you an “idiot.”
Why can you not see the correlation? This conflict is a part of our war on terror. This is a way for us to protect our country. If the SOB’s want to go to Iraq to fight so be it. It’s one hell of a lot better than having a bomb blow up in downtown Phoenix. Our troops are there and are prepared and willing to face these people. The citizens of America are not. Bush did not start this. Bush did not sit in the Whitehouse and decide this is an opportunity to make money. Bush did not say to himself “Now I can finish what Dad started.” DED, I fear this is just the opening moves in an ongoing battle for our way of life. Saudi Arabia is a powder keg. Iran is stirring the pot in Iraq. Syria quite possibly has some of the infamous WMD’s and is setting back. The whole damn place is a shithole of despair to boot. A democracy in Iraq would be a beacon of hope for almost a whole continent. Is that not a good thing?
As for Isreal…you asked if I knew the origins. I must now ask you which origin? In the twentieth century or in the first???
OK, your problem seems to be the reason we are there. I hear you saying that the deaths of combatants and innocents can never ever outweigh the reasons given to start this Iraqi war.
Saddam was continuing to violate something like 20 UN resolutions not the least of which were the resolutions pertaining to WMD. He never explained where tons and tons of chemical agents were. Agents which the world knew he possessed prior to the gulf war. He fired missiles at our aircraft patrolling the no-fly zone almost weekly. Low level Iraqi officials had met with known terrorists. He defied all attempts aimed at forcing him to abide by the cease fire agreement he signed to save his skin after the gulf war. He had murdered millions of people, many his own countrymen, before during and after the first war. He started two wars with his neighbors.
As for support here at home: John Kerry said in 2003 "If he doesn't have weapons of mass destruction..Don’t vote for me." (I for one plan on honoring his request) Clinton said he had WMD. Intelligence at the time said he had WMD. But if you remember the main reason Bush pushed was due to the resolutions that were being violated.
I for one don't see how Bush could strategically let him continue to thumb his nose at the world. What message was sent by prior administrations by letting Saddam call the shots? Do you think Saddam's open rebellion against the entire world was helping or hindering Muslim extremists? I believe he would be more than willing to harbor terrorists intent on attacking us. I believe it was just a matter of time. I believe he was an evil man thirsty for power.
Today do you think the Iraqi people are worse or better off than prior to this conflict? The torture chambers are closed. His two sons are no longer picking girls and women up off the streets to use and kill. The people are finding out what happened to there loved ones, as mass graves are uncovered. People continue to line up to join the police force knowing full well psychopaths have already blown up hundreds like them. They want the freedom of choice we will help them obtain. Do you truly believe the vast majority of the Iraqi people do not think this is a good thing for their Country? It was is a just cause DED. There are 50 million free Iraqi's today. The extremists can and will be put down and sent back to their holes if we persevere and stay the course.
Everytime someone decides to say that we should leave this country, that it was wrong, it helps the scumbag terrorists. Everytime someone says that Bush did this for personal gain or as a vendetta to finish what his father started it helps the terrorists. Everytime someone places the crimes of Abu-Grab in front of the image of a butcher with an innocent person’s head in their hands with the eyes still blinking it helps the terrorists. DED do you not realize that your retoric is the greatest tool these people have. What people like you are saying is what is drawing terrorists to that country like flies to a camel turd. That my friend is the basis for calling you an “idiot.”
Why can you not see the correlation? This conflict is a part of our war on terror. This is a way for us to protect our country. If the SOB’s want to go to Iraq to fight so be it. It’s one hell of a lot better than having a bomb blow up in downtown Phoenix. Our troops are there and are prepared and willing to face these people. The citizens of America are not. Bush did not start this. Bush did not sit in the Whitehouse and decide this is an opportunity to make money. Bush did not say to himself “Now I can finish what Dad started.” DED, I fear this is just the opening moves in an ongoing battle for our way of life. Saudi Arabia is a powder keg. Iran is stirring the pot in Iraq. Syria quite possibly has some of the infamous WMD’s and is setting back. The whole damn place is a shithole of despair to boot. A democracy in Iraq would be a beacon of hope for almost a whole continent. Is that not a good thing?
As for Isreal…you asked if I knew the origins. I must now ask you which origin? In the twentieth century or in the first???
-
dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
knun
a long post, which i can only answer briefly as best i can and for that reason things may not be in proper order sigh. israel? 20th century origins ....was not menachin begin a terrorist? did he not take part in several terrorist atrocities?
is iraq a safer and better place? the answer to both is no.it was bad before,its worse since.
if he had wmd,why did he not use them? he had nothing to lose. with the amount of surveilance equipment available in todays world its surprising the supposed movement of said wmd to syria or to wherever wasnt noticed and monitored. even blair admits that most likely said weapons never existed.the 45 minute notice required to launch said weapons was baloney ....not my words. as for attacking other countruies we supported him during iraq /iran war .now if the intelligence reports were a mistake fair enough....the evidence suggests it wasnt...the evidence suggests the truth was known.
senior republicans (some) also have grave misgivings about thewar....its not just the idiots you describe.
i doubt also whether photos of allied guards torturing and abusing iraqi prisoners help our cause either very much,or the prisoners held (some for as long as 3 years with neither charge or even accusation help our cause very much either.i dont have my ear close to the ground in iraq, i dont know the ordinary iraqis views.i know what im told they think ,what thewy want etc, ..maybe its us putting words in their mouths. the opposition is not just a rag tagged small band of psychotic insurgents i believe. the resentment it seems is much larger than that.does anybody really doubt (and some might think it a good thing i admit) that any iraqi government will be anything other than a puppet government? im sure ordinary iraqis realise it too.
i agree saddam was thirsty for power....arent they all?
i share your view that this is only the begginnig....that worse..far worse is in store....that the eventual end of mankind (except for a few scattered survivors in remote outposts) is in sight and that the actions were engaged in will only hasten the demise. is it wrong to look for a better way? iraq in my view was a silly tragic and unthought out course of action,that the reasons for embarking on it were not confined to the reasons outlined in your post.
bill
you started the name calling,if you cant take it,then dont iniate it.
joe
strange post indeed ,yours not mine i never suggested that bush was the ONLY liar on the planet.it seems you regard anyone who disagrees with you or bush or bill as a liar,indeed a pathological one.hmm odd
maybe there was rhyme or reason to that last post of yours....if there was im afraid its difficult to see...or maybe im lying aboutthat too?
as for printing the "list of liars" for the world to see and know...theres no need.....people allready have ....and do.......unless of course they see only what they want to see that is.....only black and white....straight forward....only from one angleetc
i may be hearing things but im sure i can hear bill hooting in the background saying 60s crap..60s crap ..60s crap
a long post, which i can only answer briefly as best i can and for that reason things may not be in proper order sigh.
israel? 20th century origins ....was not menachin begin a terrorist? did he not take part in several terrorist atrocities?is iraq a safer and better place? the answer to both is no.it was bad before,its worse since.
if he had wmd,why did he not use them? he had nothing to lose. with the amount of surveilance equipment available in todays world its surprising the supposed movement of said wmd to syria or to wherever wasnt noticed and monitored. even blair admits that most likely said weapons never existed.the 45 minute notice required to launch said weapons was baloney ....not my words. as for attacking other countruies we supported him during iraq /iran war .now if the intelligence reports were a mistake fair enough....the evidence suggests it wasnt...the evidence suggests the truth was known.
senior republicans (some) also have grave misgivings about thewar....its not just the idiots you describe.
i doubt also whether photos of allied guards torturing and abusing iraqi prisoners help our cause either very much,or the prisoners held (some for as long as 3 years with neither charge or even accusation help our cause very much either.i dont have my ear close to the ground in iraq, i dont know the ordinary iraqis views.i know what im told they think ,what thewy want etc, ..maybe its us putting words in their mouths. the opposition is not just a rag tagged small band of psychotic insurgents i believe. the resentment it seems is much larger than that.does anybody really doubt (and some might think it a good thing i admit) that any iraqi government will be anything other than a puppet government? im sure ordinary iraqis realise it too.
i agree saddam was thirsty for power....arent they all?
i share your view that this is only the begginnig....that worse..far worse is in store....that the eventual end of mankind (except for a few scattered survivors in remote outposts) is in sight and that the actions were engaged in will only hasten the demise. is it wrong to look for a better way? iraq in my view was a silly tragic and unthought out course of action,that the reasons for embarking on it were not confined to the reasons outlined in your post.
bill
you started the name calling,if you cant take it,then dont iniate it.
joe
strange post indeed ,yours not mine
i never suggested that bush was the ONLY liar on the planet.it seems you regard anyone who disagrees with you or bush or bill as a liar,indeed a pathological one.hmm oddmaybe there was rhyme or reason to that last post of yours....if there was im afraid its difficult to see...or maybe im lying aboutthat too?
as for printing the "list of liars" for the world to see and know...theres no need.....people allready have ....and do.......unless of course they see only what they want to see that is.....only black and white....straight forward....only from one angleetc
i may be hearing things but im sure i can hear bill hooting in the background saying 60s crap..60s crap ..60s crap
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Ideas
DED,
Sorry that post flew so far over your head. I should have known you would not be able to understand such abstract ideas. That is the very reason you are locked into the positions you hold as "truth".
I will try to explain the post in simple terms.
I have said before, that I believe that you believe the things you are saying are the "truth". That does not make you a liar. No more than the many people (world-wide) who believed that Saddam possessed WMDs were liars when they made "informed" statemennts that it was so.
The fact that no WMDs have been found in Iraq, does not make President Bush a liar, just as your statement that: "the death toll of the allies is upwards of 1300", which is incorrect, makes you a liar.
My statements, which were "tongue-in-cheek" were made to show that your own reasoning for calling others liars, would also brand DED with the same iron.
I understand that these ideas are a little abstract, and hard for a linear thinker, such as yourself to follow, but I sometimes give others a little more credit than they deserve.
You have used "if" many times in relation to what you "believe" are lies.
That is a good tack to take, when you are unsure of your conclusions.
President Bush did not have the luxury of your if'y hind site. He had to make a decision based on the "facts" he was being presented. He had two "major" choices to make. He could try to talk to the terrorist, reason, bribe, threaten or beg them to not launch another attack against our citiesl, or he could find another battleground, outside the United States, and make that place the focus of their war. I prefer the choice he made.
He also could have begged, he did ask, the French, Germans, Russians, Chineese and every other nation in the world to join in this global war.
They declined, many for less than honorable reasons, and he did what he was hired to do. While you would have wasted years, and lives, talking to folks like those listed above, Saddam, his sons and alliies, President Bush put them on the defensive rather than on offense. That's a very old maxum; "The best defense, is a good offense". That is good advice in war, politics and chess.
You are no liar. You are, however, a misguided, linear thinker, who like all linear thinkers, are unable to see the paths to the right or left.
President Bushe's choices were not his way, nor your way. He made what he and many of us believe was "our" way.
He made the decision so that, like Lt. Brown said, you can "Sleep well".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
Sorry that post flew so far over your head. I should have known you would not be able to understand such abstract ideas. That is the very reason you are locked into the positions you hold as "truth".
I will try to explain the post in simple terms.
I have said before, that I believe that you believe the things you are saying are the "truth". That does not make you a liar. No more than the many people (world-wide) who believed that Saddam possessed WMDs were liars when they made "informed" statemennts that it was so.
The fact that no WMDs have been found in Iraq, does not make President Bush a liar, just as your statement that: "the death toll of the allies is upwards of 1300", which is incorrect, makes you a liar.
My statements, which were "tongue-in-cheek" were made to show that your own reasoning for calling others liars, would also brand DED with the same iron.
I understand that these ideas are a little abstract, and hard for a linear thinker, such as yourself to follow, but I sometimes give others a little more credit than they deserve.
You have used "if" many times in relation to what you "believe" are lies.
That is a good tack to take, when you are unsure of your conclusions.
President Bush did not have the luxury of your if'y hind site. He had to make a decision based on the "facts" he was being presented. He had two "major" choices to make. He could try to talk to the terrorist, reason, bribe, threaten or beg them to not launch another attack against our citiesl, or he could find another battleground, outside the United States, and make that place the focus of their war. I prefer the choice he made.
He also could have begged, he did ask, the French, Germans, Russians, Chineese and every other nation in the world to join in this global war.
They declined, many for less than honorable reasons, and he did what he was hired to do. While you would have wasted years, and lives, talking to folks like those listed above, Saddam, his sons and alliies, President Bush put them on the defensive rather than on offense. That's a very old maxum; "The best defense, is a good offense". That is good advice in war, politics and chess.
You are no liar. You are, however, a misguided, linear thinker, who like all linear thinkers, are unable to see the paths to the right or left.
President Bushe's choices were not his way, nor your way. He made what he and many of us believe was "our" way.
He made the decision so that, like Lt. Brown said, you can "Sleep well".
Respectfully,
Joe Ribaudo
bill
also ded; pilot brown did say this weather you agree with our being in iraq or not we are there, so, if you want disagree do not do it in a way that would not help the enemy while our troops are engaged in battle with them. Do not give enemy support of any kind. If you must protest do so at the ballot box. If you speak out against the war do so at home town news papers etcetra. Do not go over to and meet Jane and kerryion style with the viet namese. Do not harm your own troopers like dan blather and others have done. P.S. the husains had a year to get rid of any weapons that they did not wish to get caught with. SO nobody really knows if he had them or not. They did find the makings or the leaving and the scientist who worked on them...Pilot brown told you if you must protest how to do so in a way that you would not help the enemy or harm our troops. NOW ded; I am not thru with you I am going to save your soul weather you want me to or not. YOU know that you go around all hunkerd up and mad. Worried about everything all the time and you can,t rest at nite worrying about thing,s. DID you listen to roy Masters this saturday morning? It doesn,t cost you a thing and you can call him and talk to him too. He will send you tapes to listen to free of charge. He does take donations tho if you feel like he,s worth supporting. He is supported by donations only. His tapes he sends you do not cost you anything either. He can get right to and explain your problem to you and how to get rid of it the problems. BUT you must be honest with him and really want help or he will ask you to hang up and call him back when you are ready to be honest with him and your self.. Bill your friend 
bill
ded; Monaham begin was not a terrorist, he did not attack civilian targets. He only attacked military targets. A terrorist attacks civilian targets. Monaham begin was a soldier, he conducted himself as a soldier. A terrorist will atack civilian,s A soldier will not attack civilian,s however some civilians who are too close to the attack zone may be hurt but they were not deliberatly targeted. The terrorist makes no distintion. Further more his attacks were in his own country. He was trying to get rid of the british and pilostine,s that had been dumped in on them after ww11. SO you are way off base here with this. Bill
ded, thought you may appreciate the way the israeli people see the best way to fight terrorism
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... 61&ak=null
and
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... iaID=27179
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... 61&ak=null
and
http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... iaID=27179
-
dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
bill, begin WAS a terrorist,he gained his position through terrorism, same as gerry adams and his crony (whosnameslips my mind) of theprovisional I.R.A. the crony whos name slips my mind is nowin fact minister of educatiobn somewhat interestingly, put there in part by no less than tony blair (bushs puppet) you know the guy ..theone who says you never negotiatewith terrorists. he negotiated with the i.r.a and negotiated a long needed, iffragile peace.thanks for youroffer of help and your diagnosis, but i feel i must refuse it,what you reccomend for me isnt treatment or medication.....its brainwashing.
joe, never fear i doubt if you could offer anything "over my head", at least not on present evidence. i understood your post perfectly, it was just that itdidnt seem relevant. perhaps ithasescaped your understanding that "lies" and "mistakes" arent the same thing. it appears to me (with muy linear thinking of course" that once you finish posting platitudes, and after you finish chanting the "bomb them,bomb them,bomb them" mantra, your thinking on this issue becomesextremely shallow.
ill reiterate one or two thoughts,perhaps you couldrefute them
many countries warned,in one form or another of the consequences of invading iraq,manywarned of the apparent non existence of said weapoms and any connection between iraq and al quaeda. america and others went ahead anyway on the basis of an outrageous pretence. now iraq is in ungovernable chaos..anddeterioating by the day.now of course rumsfield suggests januarys elections may go ahead with whole swathes of the country excluded from voting because of the violence in certain areas. that is utter farce,theres then the more than veiled hint of taking troops out before peace reigns in iraq"nothings perfect in life" he says .....an understatement if nothing else.
people who have knowledge of the arab world warned usrepeatedly that if wewere to forcefully remove saddam, a dictator who held the country together by oppressive means,we would then release the repressed forces and chaos would ensue. ill put it to you simply in terms easy for you to understand ....you can cast one devil out and another seven devils will quickly enter. this is undoubtedly what has happened.
whatever the rights and wrongs,the fact is most arabs do not believe the u.s.a has been impartial in the conflict between israel and the palestines.this is an issue which underides the whole problem.the perception many arabs have of us is that we wish to dominate the world.those beliefs will not be changed by military might....the opposite is true.if good relationships arent forged with arab world things will go downhill even more.what is needed is a statesman ,a giant on the world stage, sadly there are none.a statesman who has insight experience with other cultures and able to recognise that democracy has different faces andrealise that those faces will not always be european or american.
maybe then we might see the compassion and mercy that we are told lies at the heart of islam.
joe, never fear i doubt if you could offer anything "over my head", at least not on present evidence. i understood your post perfectly, it was just that itdidnt seem relevant. perhaps ithasescaped your understanding that "lies" and "mistakes" arent the same thing. it appears to me (with muy linear thinking of course" that once you finish posting platitudes, and after you finish chanting the "bomb them,bomb them,bomb them" mantra, your thinking on this issue becomesextremely shallow.
ill reiterate one or two thoughts,perhaps you couldrefute them
many countries warned,in one form or another of the consequences of invading iraq,manywarned of the apparent non existence of said weapoms and any connection between iraq and al quaeda. america and others went ahead anyway on the basis of an outrageous pretence. now iraq is in ungovernable chaos..anddeterioating by the day.now of course rumsfield suggests januarys elections may go ahead with whole swathes of the country excluded from voting because of the violence in certain areas. that is utter farce,theres then the more than veiled hint of taking troops out before peace reigns in iraq"nothings perfect in life" he says .....an understatement if nothing else.
people who have knowledge of the arab world warned usrepeatedly that if wewere to forcefully remove saddam, a dictator who held the country together by oppressive means,we would then release the repressed forces and chaos would ensue. ill put it to you simply in terms easy for you to understand ....you can cast one devil out and another seven devils will quickly enter. this is undoubtedly what has happened.
whatever the rights and wrongs,the fact is most arabs do not believe the u.s.a has been impartial in the conflict between israel and the palestines.this is an issue which underides the whole problem.the perception many arabs have of us is that we wish to dominate the world.those beliefs will not be changed by military might....the opposite is true.if good relationships arent forged with arab world things will go downhill even more.what is needed is a statesman ,a giant on the world stage, sadly there are none.a statesman who has insight experience with other cultures and able to recognise that democracy has different faces andrealise that those faces will not always be european or american.
maybe then we might see the compassion and mercy that we are told lies at the heart of islam.
-
dutch elm disease
- Part Timer
- Posts: 241
- Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2003 1:06 pm
joe,
the best defens maxim doesnt necessarilly holdtrue in chess,i play a great deal and chess is such a complex and convoluted game( a bit of everything is there, geometry, algebra, mathmatics, psychology,invention)that defences to percieved threats are often defences to non existent threats andattacks sometimes become headlong retreatss....bit like our current situ in iraq?
lbj,
tks for clips,not sure who you are,but it seems weve got one thing in common.....we are both pariahs on here it seems
the best defens maxim doesnt necessarilly holdtrue in chess,i play a great deal and chess is such a complex and convoluted game( a bit of everything is there, geometry, algebra, mathmatics, psychology,invention)that defences to percieved threats are often defences to non existent threats andattacks sometimes become headlong retreatss....bit like our current situ in iraq?
lbj,
tks for clips,not sure who you are,but it seems weve got one thing in common.....we are both pariahs on here it seems
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Mutual Pariah Society
DED,
Your position is based on President Bush, and those who helped him make his decision, the United States and all of its allies and every soldier, airman and sailor in the Middle East, being on the wrong side of this war.
If we are on the wrong side, as you constantly remind us, than who is on the right side of this war?
You have cast your lot with the people who are targeting children in school busses, construction workers who are building hospitals, schools, power plants and all of the other things that make your world a better place. You are the enemy.
Defense is predictable, offense seldom is. The only time a good defense in chess is a winning tactic, is when you are playing someone who is less capable of a player than you. Your views on chess are on the same level as your views of right and wrong in the world arena.
"joe, never fear i doubt if you could offer anything "over my head", at least not on present evidence. i understood your post perfectly, it was just that itdidnt seem relevant. perhaps ithasescaped your understanding that "lies" and "mistakes" arent the same thing."
"maybe there was rhyme or reason to that last post of yours....if there was im afraid its difficult to see...or maybe im lying aboutthat too?"
Your statements seem a bit at odds with each other.
You are way to smart to explain your positions to someone who "chants" a "mantra" and is unable to see the value of your "terrorist defense". If I read your posts correctly, given my poor understanding of the language, your own "mantra" seems to be: My country, always wrong.
You have picked the correct name to spread your self-hatred and your loathing for the ideals that our people are paying for with their money and blood. Dead elm disease is just too perfect. You are now calling Lt. Brown a liar. It is your contention that you, Dead Elm Disease, know more about what is going on in Iraq, and why we are there, than someone who is putting his life on the line every day in that country, to make it better for the people who must live there.
You, Dead Elm Disease, are risking nothing with your mindless prattle, while others, like Lt. Brown, President Bush and all of the others, who have the courage of their convictions, risk everything for what they believe in. You are a terrorist without the risk.
Joe Ribaudo
Your position is based on President Bush, and those who helped him make his decision, the United States and all of its allies and every soldier, airman and sailor in the Middle East, being on the wrong side of this war.
If we are on the wrong side, as you constantly remind us, than who is on the right side of this war?
You have cast your lot with the people who are targeting children in school busses, construction workers who are building hospitals, schools, power plants and all of the other things that make your world a better place. You are the enemy.
Defense is predictable, offense seldom is. The only time a good defense in chess is a winning tactic, is when you are playing someone who is less capable of a player than you. Your views on chess are on the same level as your views of right and wrong in the world arena.
"joe, never fear i doubt if you could offer anything "over my head", at least not on present evidence. i understood your post perfectly, it was just that itdidnt seem relevant. perhaps ithasescaped your understanding that "lies" and "mistakes" arent the same thing."
"maybe there was rhyme or reason to that last post of yours....if there was im afraid its difficult to see...or maybe im lying aboutthat too?"
Your statements seem a bit at odds with each other.
You are way to smart to explain your positions to someone who "chants" a "mantra" and is unable to see the value of your "terrorist defense". If I read your posts correctly, given my poor understanding of the language, your own "mantra" seems to be: My country, always wrong. You have picked the correct name to spread your self-hatred and your loathing for the ideals that our people are paying for with their money and blood. Dead elm disease is just too perfect. You are now calling Lt. Brown a liar. It is your contention that you, Dead Elm Disease, know more about what is going on in Iraq, and why we are there, than someone who is putting his life on the line every day in that country, to make it better for the people who must live there.
You, Dead Elm Disease, are risking nothing with your mindless prattle, while others, like Lt. Brown, President Bush and all of the others, who have the courage of their convictions, risk everything for what they believe in. You are a terrorist without the risk.
Joe Ribaudo
bill clintonoid
ded; Now you see how messed up your mind is with your hatered and selfloathing, you go around all hunkerd over and scrounched up all the time. Feeling ill. Now I recomended a man to you who could free you of this demen and you spit and hiss at me and accuse me of wanting to brain wash you? You have now taken up with that vulger reptillian. NOW; I would like for you to tell us want present form of government that you would replace our present form of government with?? NO pie in the sky shit either..since you think ours is so bad!!! JOE; that was an awsome post. I couldn,t have done better myself.. Bill
The Blood of Hero's
Gentlemen, I think you should all take a break and visit both of these websites. Maybe they will bring some of you back to reality. Turn up your volume and see them to the end. The first should put a real sense of why we are where we are today. http://www.fdnylodd.com/BloodofHeroes.html
The second, “Until then” should give each one of you pause. Be thankful for the Men in Uniform! http://www.clermontyellowribbon.com/untilthenflash.htm
It is easy to throw stones at the current administration and difficult to stand behind the President of the United States. Only men of courage have the strength do that. I’m proud to be an American and thankful that George Bush is my President. When you are standing alone in the poling booth, ask yourself the following question, “Who does Osama Bin Laden want for President?” Answer the question truthfully and then vote for the other guy. This election is not about Republicans and Democrats, it is about who is better suited to see us through these times. Kerry is certainly not the man for the job.
Grayhair
The second, “Until then” should give each one of you pause. Be thankful for the Men in Uniform! http://www.clermontyellowribbon.com/untilthenflash.htm
It is easy to throw stones at the current administration and difficult to stand behind the President of the United States. Only men of courage have the strength do that. I’m proud to be an American and thankful that George Bush is my President. When you are standing alone in the poling booth, ask yourself the following question, “Who does Osama Bin Laden want for President?” Answer the question truthfully and then vote for the other guy. This election is not about Republicans and Democrats, it is about who is better suited to see us through these times. Kerry is certainly not the man for the job.
Grayhair