Wrong again!

[critter]

You are wrong again, Joe, Socialism is an American invention, that's all I'm saying. You've used tribalism and authoritarianism as your examples, I am speaking of Socialism. Read up on it and you'll see that you simply cannot have Socialism without industrialisation. I'll leave you to it.

[Knun]

Critter,

You seem to be confusing the "word" with the philosphy and it's evolution. Today's version was based on the concept of utopian socialism of which Robert Owen is associated. It should be pointed out that Mr. Owen fostered his beliefs in England and exspressed his views publicially to the House of Commons in 1817. These same ideals were also being discussed in France during that time by the likes of Saint-Simon who is credited by some as coining the term socialism.

So your poll answer is not the United States.

To go further, the idea of socialism is rooted much further back in time than the industrial revolution just as Joe pointed out. One of the first documented social reformists would have been the Persian Mazdak.

To say that socialism started iwith Owen is simply not true and today's socialist's view his utopian ideals no different than those of Mazdak. Owen's socialism was a meritocratic society based on individual talent. Outdated and flawed. Socialism today is rooted in Marxism.

A class system, when applied, which is the very thing Owen was trying to eliminate.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Kevin,

Excellent point. I fear that words are as deep as critter goes. Like many such people, the meanings behind the words are beyond him.

I would suggest that he read Plato's "Republic" but doubt it would hold his interest.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

critter,

Forgot to mention:

As Kevin mentioned, Robert Owen did not start his "Utopian socialism" in America. For him, it originated in England and he failed there. Harmony only lasted 3-years before it also folded. America is hardly the birthplace of your idealistic society, and it will fail here......if it's tried by our current President.

Joe Ribaudo

[critter]

I never said my poll answer is the United States.

'nuff said

[critter]

I also never said that socialism is a good thing or a bad thing. If you care to have a debate with someone, then have it with the words I've used, not the one's you put in my mouth.

[critter]

"social reform" is not socialism, but that's an excellent Internet tidbit. Yes, you absolutely do need industrialisation for socialism, without it, the entire basis of the ideology wouldn't exist. It's just a suggestion, but you may want to get off of google, go to the library and get informed.

[Joe Ribaudo]

critter,

You telling me to check out a library is the funniest thing you have said yet. It's been obvious for some time now that your own "intelligence" is confined to what you can find on the Internet, something you have laid on me.

Here is something you can Google and find to increase your knowledge:

[The teaching of Plato on the form and purpose of society is best set forth in his masterpiece, "The Republic." In this work, which contemplates a perfect commonwealth, Plato considers society as a self-conscious thing, capable of directing and controlling its own form and process by its own deliberate action. In other words, he taught the possibility and practicability of an artificial or an ideally constructed state -- a Utopia of social bliss. Many writers have accepted the general principle above set down; such men as Aquinas, Augustine, More, Campanella, Harrington, Bacon, Hall, Fénelon, Morelly, and Rousseau - writers with whom one fundamental proposition may be discovered; namely, that society may control its own form and process. In other words, every theory of social welfare here called socialistic, which has appeared from Plato to Karl Marx, has been dominated by this view; has been under the guidance of the principle that society may be artificially constructed; that reformers may say, "Go to; let us construct a society."] Page 18

Now look for this, from the same book:

[Of all attempts to organize an artificial society and to conduct affairs after a definite plan, with a decided creed and consciously wrought-out purpose, the Jesuit colony of South America furnishes the most conspicuous example. It was the most extensive and successful attempt at establishing a society after the dreams of idealists and reformers. This was a heroic example of the application of close, minute social control to the affairs of a society based upon communism. "Loyola contemplated calling into existence an organization, novel in character and in scope, and that fact he sought to impress on the world by a title conspicuously expressive of superior pretensions."] Page 153

The quotes are from, "Socialism before the French Revolution: A History." by, William Guthrie. Are you familiar with Mr. Guthrie's work? I have a very nice first edition of this one. Libraries are fine, but I prefer not having a deadline or having to return good source material.

Your problem is that you are being limited to what you can find on the Internet. While a good source, it often leaves out a great deal.

Joe Ribaudo

[Knun]

Critter,

Your poll question was: Historically speaking, where does Socialism come from?

At the top of this very post you say: Socialism is an American invention.

Then you say the United States is not your answer to the poll.

So if you believe it was invented in America how could it not have "come from" America?

Do you have some other definition for invention?

A more pertinent question for a poll would be: Do you believe Obama is simply a socialist or a communist? Or maybe: Do you believe Obama is purposely destroying the Union or is he just a product of current public education? Or even: What can be done to fix our Country once Obama is fired? All of which would be much more interesting in my opinion.

After all what normal American cares of the origin of socialism as a topic of discussion?

By the way the socialism montra of today is based on Marxism. Social reform is a large part of that dogma. So I don't know why you feel that is not apart of the discussion with regards to socialism.

[Joe Ribaudo]

[Knun]

A few more of my favorite poll questions.

Since Obama is multiracial why does he identify himself as a black man? (my favorite...so much to discuss about this one)

Does the debt really matter?

Do those that don't pay taxes vote conservative?

Is the United States a democracy or a republic.. I mean really?

What are individuals responsible for in their lives?

What does the United Nations do?

What is the best Country in the world to live in?

Why does Obama bow to people that don't bow to him?

What does the 10th amendment mean to you?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Kevin,

I suppose this silence means the critter has won again.

I suspect the four letter words and name calling will be dredged up now. It has become a bit predictable.

Duck!

Joe

[Knun]

Joe,

Your probably right. No pun intended.

He has once agian been placed in a position where he is proven to be not as knowledgeable as his mother told him he was.

As you said that is usually when he and his start flying off the handle.

We shall see.