where i stand

Anything goes. Politics, religion and your neighbors spouse. No censors, no dictators. Any and all opinions welcome.
lbj
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where i stand

Post by lbj »

joe, here are some of my positions of where we are and where we should go as a nation.

first and foremost i expect my government to make no laws or regulations restricting my freedom of thought and expression of my thoughts. that also includes my right to hear the thoughts of others. at this point in our history the government determines and regulates what thoughts we are permitted to express . some examples of government suppression of though include:
. placing reporters who anger our govt on the no fly list
. heavy fines for "wardrobe malfunctions"
. removal of habeas corpus from our judicial system
. imposition of christian values, more correctly christian prejudices, on non christian citizens

second, a nation has certain obligations to its citizens. some of those obligations include:
. equal access to medical care without regard to ability to pay
. protection from other citizens
. a taxation system that those who benefit the most also contribute back to the nation the most. an economic system that relies on the goodwill of the rich to piddle down a few golden drops of their wealth is morally bankrupt.
. protection from corporate greed. this includes:
. .ensuring corporations do not damage or destroy the environment,
. .regulating corporations so that they cannot become so big that we cannot afford to have them fail
.. ensuring workers have the right and ability to organize and negotiate collectively with their employers
. .ensuring corporations do not have ANY influence over elections or elected officials or policy

third, government must establish and foster relations with foreign governments. it must do so to protect its own citizens and also advance the rights and freedoms of individuals worldwide. the govt should not be a partner with any govt that does not respect the rights of the individual. there should be diplomatic relations and negotiations with all govts. we must submit ourselves to the same laws that we expect our enemy to obey therefore our leader and our troops should be answerable to the international court at the hauge for any violations for the geneva convention. any torture under any circumstance is a crime against humanity anyone who orders, carries out or condones acts of torture must be brought to justice.

i support obama for president because he comes closer to my thoughts of what a nation should be than mccain does. obama is too far to the right politically and socially for me but not as far to the right as mccain.
Joe Ribaudo
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Dialog........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

Thanks for inviting me into this conversation. I will try to address as many of your points as possible.

"placing reporters who anger our govt on the no fly list"

Can you name a reporter who has been place of such a list? Is there any kind of documentation that it has happened?

[heavy fines for "wardrobe malfunctions"]

I believe there is a time and a place for almost everything. Having, as part of a half time show, the ripping off of a woman's clothes, in the manner it was done, was inappropriate. They broke the existing rules. If those rules are wrong, change them.

"removal of habeas corpus from our judicial system"

For the most part, I agree with you. However, I have no problem with the way the terrorists have been treated.......as a general rule. I have no doubt that some treatment was over the line. I may change my outlook when they quit flying planes into buildings in New York.

"imposition of christian values, more correctly christian prejudices, on non christian citizens"

Most of our laws are based on Christian values. Raping a five year old child would be against Christian values, which is one of the reasons we have laws against it. Would you pick and choose which values/laws you would keep, and which you would toss out? Could you be more specific as to which Christian values or prejudices you think are unfair?

"equal access to medical care without regard to ability to pay"

I disagree with that completely. It's often about wrong choices and not wanting to take responsibility for them. Such access has never been the obligation of government. Where it has been implemented, the level of health care has always suffered, not improved. If someone chooses to snort coke until he or she needs their nose transplanted to their cheek, I see no reason that people who choose to work for a living, as well as health benefits, should be forced to pay for the procedure. What happened to choice?

"protection from other citizens"

I agree completely.

"a taxation system that those who benefit the most also contribute back to the nation the most. an economic system that relies on the goodwill of the rich to piddle down a few golden drops of their wealth is morally bankrupt."

I believe that is the system we have now. The question is, how much is their fair burden. How much of your own income are you willing to give to those who are unwilling to work? Since Obama wants to give tax breaks to 95% of the people, when 40% pay no tax's at all, does that mean he must cut that 40% a check, taken from the people who do work and pay tax's? What happened to choice?

[. protection from corporate greed. this includes:
. .ensuring corporations do not damage or destroy the environment,
. .regulating corporations so that they cannot become so big that we cannot afford to have them fail]

Why stop with "corporate greed"? Why not protect Americans from all greed?
I have no problem with your second point.
How you could implement your third point is beyond my pay grade.

[ .. ensuring workers have the right and ability to organize and negotiate collectively with their employers
. .ensuring corporations do not have ANY influence over elections or elected officials or policy]

Once again, we agree. Perhaps we could add ACORN to that list.

"third, government must establish and foster relations with foreign governments. it must do so to protect its own citizens and also advance the rights and freedoms of individuals worldwide. the govt should not be a partner with any govt that does not respect the rights of the individual. there should be diplomatic relations and negotiations with all govt's. we must submit ourselves to the same laws that we expect our enemy to obey therefore our leader and our troops should be answerable to the international court at the hauge for any violations for the geneva convention. any torture under any circumstance is a crime against humanity anyone who orders, carries out or condones acts of torture must be brought to justice"

I have no problem with the first part of your third point, but you lost me in the highlighted part.

We do follow International Law, when we are fighting an enemy who does the same. If we capture a terrorist who we know has information about a nuclear weapon that has been planted in say........your home town, I would be willing to use any means to stop the deaths of ........how many in your home town? Does it make a difference if it's fifty or five million?

I am voting for McCain because I have no doubt that he loves this country. He may make the wrong choices now and then, but the only person who makes no mistakes is the person who does nothing......like voting present, or not voting at all. I can deal with politicians hanging around with people who are greedy and will screw others for money. That's the nature of politicians. I can't abide Obama, who had a habit of hanging around with people who hate the country and would do anything to destroy it......for years, and years.

On the other hand, it looks like Obama will be our next President. If that's the case, the majority will have spoken, and I will have come down on the losing side.

Thanks again,

Joe Ribaudo
JIM HAMRICK
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Post by JIM HAMRICK »

LBJ:

In this great country you may believe what you wish. The U.S. constitution says so. You may believe in any religion that you wish, you may not have the United States establish a government religion, If you wish to hold the most outrageous ideas or hold strictly mainstream ideas you can do so. Because of these and other rights the U.S. is the nation most of the world would like become part of.

When I was young I was very liberal, or so I thought then. I have been a registered democrat all life and considered President Truman as my Idea of what a 20 th. century president should be. I say this because today I think of President Bush as a closet liberal, John McCain as a slightly left politician, and Barack Obama as a flaming socialist. I do not think that I have changed my position much but politics has moved past my stand.

Mr. LBJ, I read what you write but much of your concepts are foreign to my mind. I Think that what you suggest would give us a one world government which the U.S. would have to bow down to and worship. I certainly hope that the U.S. citizens are not ready for this.

I do not know what tomorrow, next month or next year will bring but I do Know that politics flows like a river ever moving. For the ones who hold onto beliefs different than mine I say that I will respect your right to do this but I would expect the same the respect of my thoughts.

jnh
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Post by lbj »

joe,

it's good so see that there are some basic ideas that we agree on.

so on to our differences...

drew griffin of cnn was placed on the no-fly list after he done a critical piece on the tsa.
see http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/17/watchl ... ref=nextin
re wardrobe malfunction - i also believe that there is a time and place for almost anything. but it should be the marketplace that determines what is acceptable. the government should not be determining what i choose to see or not see. the government should not dictate what is moral or immoral.

re habeas corpus - either the nation has habeas corpus or it does not. this is like pregnancy - one cannot be only 95% pregnant because the 5% non pregnant part makes one 100% non pregnant. so it is with habeas corpus either it applies to 100% of the people or it does not exist for the individual. i find it curious that conservative are willing to trust civil servants to determine who is guilty or innocent rather than trusting a judge and jury for such important decisions.

re christian values - here we are far apart. the us constitution and and us legal system is in no way based on anything christian. there are no christian principles in our constitution. the constitution is based on greek, roman, british, french and iroquois concepts of government. there are no christian biblical concepts in the constitution. our judicial system is based on english common law - trial by jury, independent judge, and representation by an advocate. biblical law has non of these concepts. murder, rape, theft etc., are not christian concepts. they are concepts present in all human societies and religions.
i strongly object to the attempts by christian conservatives to bring prayer to public school, the 10 commandments to courthouses, in god we trust on our money and any other support of a religion or theist concept. the separation between state and church should be absolute not a dotted line. any law that is in place to support a religious belief such as no selling of alcohol on sundays needs to be rescinded. it appears conservative christians believe freedom of religion means the right to enforce their religion on others. that is not freedom it is theocracy.

re health care - it's not true that access to health care has never been an obligation of our government. medicare is exactly that. are you saying medicare should be abolished and our seniors should be responsible for their own medical care? if not why should the government take care of the old when they are most expensive and leave the young with few medical problems to private insurers so huge profits can be made. it is not true that the level of care decreased where national health care replaced private insurers. the opposite is true. the us has the most expensive health care system and the least healthy population, both wealthy and poor, than all 1st world countires. you fail to address major faults of our health system such as no coverage for pre existing conditions, no portability of policies to name 2.

re taxation - i think if we used the gdp and the annual national budget would be fair. if you have 1% of the gdp you should be taxed 1% of the national budget. i don't understand your 40% example. 40% of nothing is nothing so sure cut them a check for nothing if you want but why waste paper on nothing?

re protection from greed - sure protect against greed, incorporated or non incorporated. Some examples of regulations that would prevent companies from becoming too large to fail include limiting the types commerce they can conduct. forbid banks from doing investment banking or commercial banking or brokering securities. stop broadcast media from owning print media. in the past we had such rules and regulations and the country's economy was healthier for it.

re the international court in the hauge. currently the us government does not recognize the international court's jurisdiction over acts committed by americans but the us recognizes the courts jurisdiction over countries we dont like. that is a hypocritical position. if americans commit crimes against humanity they should be subject to the international court.

re torture. we do not follow international law. waterboarding is torture. it is against international law. guantanamo bay detentions are illegal as is rendition. any american involved with waterboarding and other froms of torture should be sent to the hauge. further, torture is totally counterproductive. it produces faulty and false intelligence and destroys our image at home and abroad.torture is a tool of fools and sadits. professionals agree that torture dose not work.

re obama and mccain. i suggest that you judge politicians by their policies not by mud their opponents sling.
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Post by lbj »

jim,

this was a great country. it no longer is. we sold ourselves and our country and now we are bailing out banks and corporate executives with billions or our dollars and future generations dollars. nothing great about that.

we invade, we occupy, we torture. we killed sadam but we are friends with bin ladin's family and osama is free and stronger than ever. nothing great about that.

it is time we look at ourselves and at what our country has become. with a bit of luck we may get some of our greatness back if we find the courage to elect a black man for president. if we elect more of the same old same old corporate shills the little bit of greatness we have left will be sold just as most of it has been sold over the last 7 years.
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Opinions.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

The site you provided does not work. I have my doubts about this one, because of the people who produced the story. It can be found with a bit of searching.

The confirmation of the story is very thin, but here are some facts concerning TSA and any watch or no-fly list:

http://www.tsa.gov/blog/2008/07/myth-bu ... -more.html

As for the so called "wardrobe malfunction", he reached up and ripped off her top. Where's the malfunction. If we don't have a Government watchdog on public airwaves, they will turn into the Internet......IMHO.

I will not waste one minute of time worrying about the habeas corpus rights of terrorists. There are plenty of other people out there who will turn them loose in Washington, DC.......which may turn out to be a pretty good idea.

I believe I was writing about the laws which govern our society, and not exclusively the U.S. Constitution. Is it your contention, that we should only use the Constitution to govern our daily laws? That would not match up well with some of the things you have stated in your last post to me.

It is a society as a whole which dictates the laws by which they will abide, at least in a democracy. If our society want's to see two people copulating on the fifty yard line during half time at the Super Bowl, they need to vote out the powers of the FCC. You, as an individual, have the right to see whatever you want to, as long as long as it does not infringe on the rights of sixty million others not to be subjected to your moral values. By the same token, you have the right to free speech, but it does not allow you to shout "fire"" in a crowded theater, where no fire is present.

You are correct that the marketplace will dictate what is proper on National TV, and they have. For those who think that was a "wardrobe malfunction", they should have gathered together and ponied-up the fine.

"i strongly object to the attempts by christian conservatives to bring prayer to public school, the 10 commandments to courthouses, in god we trust on our money and any other support of a religion or theist concept. the separation between state and church should be absolute not a dotted line. any law that is in place to support a religious belief such as no selling of alcohol on sundays needs to be rescinded. it appears conservative christians believe freedom of religion means the right to enforce their religion on others. that is not freedom it is theocracy."

Our system of government is not a "theocracy". There is no god or deity which is the supreme civil ruler of our country. We are governed by the laws of man, not God. In truth, there are times when the two laws are comparable, but many more cases where they are completely opposite. We are not ruled by religions or the Bible, but by a secular form of government that is "merely influenced by theological or moral concepts."

Other than in cases where there are civil right being trampled upon, such as slavery, we are governed by the majority, and even in that case, the majority ended up ruling. If enough people decide to outlaw the Ten Commandments, it will be done. That's the difference between our form of government and a theocracy. By the same token, those who do believe in the laws of a god, have every right in this country to voice their opinions in public. They have every right to petition the government to leave the Ten Commandments on every public building, where they have been for hundreds of years.

"re health care - it's not true that access to health care has never been an obligation of our government. medicare is exactly that. are you saying medicare should be abolished and our seniors should be responsible for their own medical care? if not why should the government take care of the old when they are most expensive and leave the young with few medical problems to private insurers so huge profits can be made. it is not true that the level of care decreased where national health care replaced private insurers. the opposite is true. the us has the most expensive health care system and the least healthy population, both wealthy and poor, than all 1st world countires. you fail to address major faults of our health system such as no coverage for pre existing conditions, no portability of policies to name 2."

Where people have insurance and are being screwed by their companies, I believe the company CEO's should be tortured to death. Soon we would have the best insurance companies in the world. The obligation of our government for health has been signed into law. It starts at age 65. Health care for everyone has not been signed into law yet. When it is, we will see just how good the government can run something.......anything.

"re taxation - i think if we used the gdp and the annual national budget would be fair. if you have 1% of the gdp you should be taxed 1% of the national budget. i don't understand your 40% example. 40% of nothing is nothing so sure cut them a check for nothing if you want but why waste paper on nothing?"

I have always been for a flat sales tax. If that 40% won't get a check, they might not vote the Democratic ticket. That's why Obama has backed ACORN, including with cash. They concentrate on getting the poor and homeless to register to vote. What they want is......."to each, according to his need(s)" Karl Marx

"re the international court in the hauge. currently the us government does not recognize the international court's jurisdiction over acts committed by americans but the us recognizes the courts jurisdiction over countries we dont like. that is a hypocritical position. if americans commit crimes against humanity they should be subject to the international court."

Works in theory, but this is real life. When Americans commit crimes against humanity, they are subject to our laws and our courts. That does not work for people who think we are the worst country in the world. If someone like Hugo Chavez was on the tribunal, every American President would be subject to prosecution.

"re torture. we do not follow international law. waterboarding is torture. it is against international law. guantanamo bay detentions are illegal as is rendition. any american involved with waterboarding and other froms of torture should be sent to the hauge. further, torture is totally counterproductive. it produces faulty and false intelligence and destroys our image at home and abroad.torture is a tool of fools and sadits. professionals agree that torture dose not work."

I am for everything you are against here. In Viet Nam, the Vietnamese tortured people on a regular basis. I was on the ground watching as a man fell from a helicopter. Later I found out that they had taken two suspected NVA up for questioning. Without asking a single question, they grabbed the first guy and threw him out the door. His companion immediately started telling them everything he knew. When he was done, they threw him out the door. That was torture, and it worked.

Waterboarding has worked on the people subjected to it, and it does not take long. We are talking a few minutes.....or less. It has only been used on high value prisoners.

"re obama and mccain. i suggest that you judge politicians by their policies not by mud their opponents sling."

Obama has no policies, he has speeches. I will judge him the same a McCain, not on what they say, but on what they have actually done. It's simple history, and it's all there for those who care to take the time to look. Both men come up short, but only one has a record of action over talk.

Thanks for your reply,

Joe Ribaudo
JIM HAMRICK
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Post by JIM HAMRICK »

LBJ:

On some of your points you and I may be close to each other.

I do think that that you are mixing the constitution, state laws and international law. Each has it's own responsibilities. The constitution is a limiting document setting down what the federal government may do. all other rights belong to the states and the citizens. I don't think international law has been recognized by the U.S.

There are many things done and laws enacted by the feds that I find, in my opinion, to be incorrect. Having these things done I have several options on what to do. I might challenge these in court, have legislation passed changing them, etc.

The idea that religion is imposing its morality on citizens, I must disagree, in my life time the recognition of this morality was the norm and only in the last 40 years have these values have been under attack by those who wish to replace them with values they expound.

The U.S.A. is without doubt the most choice country in which to be born. You might find some countries where somethings you might like but over all where would you find the freedom and opportunity found here.

jnh
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Post by JIM HAMRICK »

LBJ;

In my last post I forgot to comment about electing a black president.

I would have been happy to vote for General Powell if He had chosen to run. For his own reason he choose not and I thank that this deprived America of a potential great leader.

You say that Americans should get the courage to vote for a black man. I can't see why this would take courage if you find him the most qualified. It would be sheer stupidity to vote for him just because he is black.

jnh
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Post by lbj »

jim,

for some such as myself it takes no courage whatsoever to vote for obama because i am not afraid of him. but for people like the lady who told mccain that obama is an arab it does take much courage to vote for obama because the are afraid of his race. many baby boomers and their parents lived times when a black was not allowed to enter a white restaurant, bathroom or school. being born and raised in an environment that thought blacks were not equal to white folks does leaves a long lasting feeling. surely you agree that it does take courage to overcome those deeply ingrained notions.

i understand that different levels of govt pass laws. my position is that the constitution is the overriding law of the country and no level of govt has the right to pass a law that is contrary to the constitution.

we are signatories to many international treaties and agreements. the geneva convention regarding war and treatment of prisoners or war and citizens of occupied states.

i do not believe that govt should pass any laws regarding morality based on religious beliefs. there are certain morals such as do not murder common to all societies and govt should restrict itself to legislation only those few morals. going to church on sunday, who i share my bed with (assuming the person is an adult) and other morals along these lines are none of govt's business.
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Black And White.......?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj and Jim,

This conversation has gone from a debate over the issues, to a discussion of the color of Obama's skin and the fear or bravery of those who would base their vote on the fact that he is a black man.

It seems obvious that some voters are coming down both sides of the skin color issue. Some are surely against Obama because he is black, and some are for him........for the same reason. Both sides could care less about the issues. Without mentioning race or skin color, I have been called a raciest on this very Forum. I believe others have also been branded with that label, also without mentioning race or color in their posts.

If John McCain had launched his political career in the front room of someone like David Duke, or Bill Ayers and his wife, I would question his character. If he had spent his adult life in the company of people like Father Flager, Reverend Wright, and even more importantly was married to a woman who had never, in her adult life, been proud of this country, I would question his own feelings about America. Would anyone here say what Ms. Obama said?

Each and every year, the efforts of the Democratic Party have been focused on taking more from those who have, and giving it to those who have not. That is what Obama is for. At what point does that redistribution of wealth reach it's ultimate goal? Do we ever ask those who have no wealth to do anything in return for giving it to them?

Those are not the people that are making the market plunge. That is being done by people who see Obama and the Democrat's giveaway programs quickly becoming reality. When those who have earned a better life for themselves and their families see that they must give away the fruits of their labor, they will do everything in their power to protect their lifestyle.

They will stop creating businesses, jobs and the resulting economic progress. They will convert their wealth to cash and hide it. When the welfare society dry's up, the people who are no longer being given what they can't earn, will go into the homes of others and take what is left. The poor are not who pays for the police, firemen, healthcare, military, roads, charity funds, Social Security, unemployment benefits, forest preservation, clean air, clean water.....etc.

The loss of those things is the end result of a socialistic society. Why work, if you will be given everything to sit on your ass in a nice home? Those who need more than that, such as drugs, will send their wives out to provide that commodity for them. This assumes that the government does not decide to start handing drugs out as part of a mental health program.

John McCain is not the best person for the job, but he is better than Obama. Compare the records of what each man has done, not what he claims to have done (talk), but what is written in history.
The closer Obama gets to the Presidency, the lower the Stock Market will sink. Those who see that, are taking their money out as quickly and as quietly as possible. Quietly,because the media can't possibly say such a thing. It might be construed as........raciest.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by lbj »

joe,

your dichotomy confuses me.

you want a free market economy but you want a government watchdog patrolling the public airwaves.

you will not waste one minute worrying about the rights of a person accused of terrorism but believe we have the greatest judicial system in the world. if the accused cannot defend himself in a court of law who determines his guilt? i guess if a cop arrests me i must be guilty cause otherwise he would not have arrested me. right?

you claim that i as an individual have the right to see anything i want " as long as it does not infringe on the rights of sixty million others not to be subjected to your moral values" but a few lines later you tell me that they can infringe on my rights and subject me to their religious beliefs by leaving "the Ten Commandments on every public building, where they have been for hundreds of years".

i did not say our government is a theocracy. i said the christian conservative right is trying to make our government a theocracy and i stand by that statement.

with health system your solution is torture and death. neither of these do anything to increase the health of the nations population.

i don't support the flat sales tax because it transfers the total tax burden on the middle class. only the end consumer pays any tax in a flat tax system. corporations pay nothing. europe and canada have a flat sales tax system. why do you want to copy these "liberal socialists"?

many of our poor and homeless are vets who have been abandoned by our govt. are you suggesting it would be better for the nation if they did not vote?

acorn submits 3 types of new voter registration forms to election officials, verified, non verified and suspect. the republican election officials who are complaining about the acorn registrations are refusing to say from which of these 3 lists the acorn dead voters came from. as you can see there is no use discussing dead acorn voters until the republican complainers tell us from which of these 3 lists the dead bodies came from. as far as the nfl voters in nevada it sounds more like a carl rove stunt. do you really believe that acorn is so stupid that they would use all the names of a football team?

your example of interrogation techniques that you seen used by our troops in nam explains why we lost the war there. in any war the most important factor is intelligence, all other factors are secondary. i have never seen or heard of important intelligence that came from torture. to see what difference real intelligence in war means read Bodyguard of Lies: The Extraordinary True Story Behind D-Day by Anthony Cave Brown. btw did you know many cia professionals support obama because mccain and bush politicized the agency. some of the brightest left the agency when political cronies were put in charge and intelligence was filtered through a political lens.

with "obama has no policies, he has speeches" i am disappointed that you credit me with so little intelligence by assuming i would fall for such amateurish false logic. policies are statements, usually written, of intent and vision about an issue not summaries of past actions. obama has policies about major issues confronting our nation. so far mccain has had no policies about the nations problems except for the usual far right conservative battle cry of "lower taxes" for the rich so their wealth will piddle down on the rest of us. if you disagree with obamas policies, great, lets discuss but please do not insult my intelligence by bringing up ayers, acorn or other rush limbaugh type character assassination. here is my response to all those types of attacks. - obamas full name is barak hussain obama. the mossad added hussain as his middle name to fool us into thinking that he is an arab when the truth is that he is a mossad sleeper agent that they will wake up once he becomes president. barak in hebrew means lightening so obviously he is a black jew, probably from ethiopia. he is related to former israeli president ehud barak, i heard they are half brothers. ehud barak before he became president led the commando raid in the dead of night into beruit and killed some of the terrorists that killed israeli athletes at the munich olympics. he was dressed in drag for the raid. the movie munich has a short scene about that raid. if you even get on rush's show ask him if he knows this about barak.
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

"i guess if a cop arrests me i must be guilty cause otherwise he would not have arrested me. right?"

If he arrests you on a battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan, don't call me to contribute to your defense fund. :wink:

[you claim that i as an individual have the right to see anything i want " as long as it does not infringe on the rights of sixty million others not to be subjected to your moral values" but a few lines later you tell me that they can infringe on my rights and subject me to their religious beliefs by leaving "the Ten Commandments on every public building, where they have been for hundreds of years".]

I would say you have a firm grasp on my philosophy here.

"Where people have insurance and are being screwed by their companies, I believe the company CEO's should be tortured to death."

I believe that's a reasonable and humane way to deal with those people........and their lawyers. :) Beyond that, torture works, no matter what those with a more genteel nature claim. If it did not work, it would have been abandoned a long time ago. Many argue that a few people being killed by bombs or bombers, is better than one man being subjected to torture. That seems to be your position as well. You have not answered my question as to how many deaths are acceptable. Would 1-5 be a bright line, or 6-25? What about 100-500? To carry the question to the terrorists end ambition, what about the entire population of New York City, Los Angeles or San Francisco? What about the entire country of Israel? Is there any point, numbers wise, where you would say......Give me that pitcher of water!???

"your example of interrogation techniques that you seen used by our troops in nam explains why we lost the war there."

What I said was:

"In Viet Nam, the Vietnamese tortured people on a regular basis."

You are welcome to believe that is why the war was lost, but I believe it had more to do with politics than how our troops prosecuted the war.

"i have never seen or heard of important intelligence that came from torture."

No kidding! I can't imagine why no one talks about it. Even John McCain broke under torture. Forty years ago he had this to say about torture:

"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."

"i don't support the flat sales tax because it transfers the total tax burden on the middle class. only the end consumer pays any tax in a flat tax system. corporations pay nothing. europe and canada have a flat sales tax system. why do you want to copy these "liberal socialists"?"

You believe a flat sales tax is liberal socialism?

"with "obama has no policies, he has speeches" i am disappointed that you credit me with so little intelligence by assuming i would fall for such amateurish false logic. policies are statements, usually written, of intent and vision about an issue not summaries of past actions. obama has policies about major issues confronting our nation. so far mccain has had no policies about the nations problems except for the usual far right conservative battle cry of "lower taxes" for the rich so their wealth will piddle down on the rest of us. if you disagree with obamas policies, great, lets discuss but please do not insult my intelligence by bringing up ayers, acorn or other rush limbaugh type character assassination. here is my response to all those types of attacks. - obamas full name is barak hussain obama. the mossad added hussain as his middle name to fool us into thinking that he is an arab when the truth is that he is a mossad sleeper agent that they will wake up once he becomes president. barak in hebrew means lightening so obviously he is a black jew, probably from ethiopia. he is related to former israeli president ehud barak, i heard they are half brothers. ehud barak before he became president led the commando raid in the dead of night into beruit and killed some of the terrorists that killed israeli athletes at the munich olympics. he was dressed in drag for the raid. the movie munich has a short scene about that raid. if you even get on rush's show ask him if he knows this about barak."

I would say this is slipping back into personal attack agendas. We should probably move back into challenging real opinions.

Joe Ribaudo
JIM HAMRICK
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Post by JIM HAMRICK »

May I wade into these deep waters one more time?

I must agree with Mr. Rabaudo about enacting the flat rate tax but I never expect to see it in what is left of my life. The reason it will never pass congress is that it allows citizens to tell the government how much they can spend of our tax dollars. If the consumer quits buying the tax collected is less so less money may be spent by the congress.

Perhaps not in all cases but in large number of business transactions the maker of the product does not pay taxes. The people who buy the product pay the tax as it has been calculated into the price of the item. You can say that we, "Joe six pack", are the ones who pay all of the taxes.

I will try limit the number of my posts but if you don't mind a question. Do the ones of you who are very knowledgeable and Lost Dutch Man seekers have a common concept of the limits of what you call the Superstition Mt.? I see mention of areas or names that might be in the Pinals, the Salt River Mts. the Four Peak range Etc. I get confused at times of where or what you are referring to. Thanks in advance for helping a confused old man.

jnh
don
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Post by don »

It seems ,from news reports here in Britain that Obama is likely to be the next president...it appears that if he acheives that goal he will inflict on america a socialist type govt.That frightens me a bit.In britain we have a watered down socialsm I guess,but over the last few years this kind of regime has taken away so many things from the electorate by stealth.Im not talking only about taxes,but about the Orwellian side.Where political correctedness has risen to silly levels.Freedom of thought is being discouraged,freedom of speech even more so.It hasnt reached the level whereby a guy gets dragged out of his house and shot because he says he doesnt like gays or immigrants for example....yet.But it can lose you your job...it can make you attend court charged with a hate crime....merely for calling a terrorist a.....terrorist..or a thug a thug ..or a poof ...a poof.Its gradually crept up on us,till now it almost engulfs everyone.....you have to be careful what you say in the workplace,in the public eye ...maybe even soon in the comfort of your own home...i really dont know to be truthfull ....all i know is britain isnt the society it used to be.I feel ,and i dont know for certain obviously..but it appears to me from what ive read,from what ive seen,from articles tv shows radio that it is indeed the kind of society that this democrat party will inflict on america.To be honest I think there might be civil strife when the impact fully sinks in....i hope im wrong .
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To The Point.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Don, My Friend,

You have quickly moved to the heart of the problem. The same process has been taking place here for a number of years. You have the luxury of looking at this country from the Monday morning quarterback position.

Many thanks for the warning, but I fear it will go unheeded by the voting public. "Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead".

Take care,

Joe
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Post by don »

Joe
I believe the phrase is "Going to hell in a handcart". :lol: .its easy to be light hearted about it,but to me its deeply troubling.One finds now that any kind of public discussion is to a greater or lesser extent infected with ever increasing political correctdness..the only way to bypass it is to own ones own tv station,newspaper, or whatever.A white man cant talk about racism or immigration levels any more without looking over his shoulder to see who is listening. Cries of racist,bigot homophobe etc seem to be the normal reply to anyone who asks sensible questions about important issues.Its strange to watch the majority adopt that very same posture...I dont believe its a thinking posture,just a posture adopted to fit in with what we are told ,are mainstream opinions......I dont believe they are,I guess its the "group acceptance" mentality........Im no fan of McCAIN , but believe he would TRY to do the job (if elected) well.Obama on the other hand is something else...just look at the people he has associated with.....but democrats say "aah yes typical republican mud slinging----assuming guilt by association"...but to me its "guilt by participation"..If that guy gets in my advice would be take to the hills
regards
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

so why has the greatest stock point jump in history occurred, not after a 700 billion bail out by the us government, but by an announcement of support of banks by the european union?

why is mccain comparing obama's economic policy to herbert hoover, a republican?

mccain has some strange advisers is my opinion...

those who do not study history...

i may be crazie, but...these people are weird.

how can anyone believe the word of a professional politician?
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Post by don »

pippin,
Its just my opinion, based on whats happening in britain,it started with basically the same b.s that obama is spouting now.....Believe me britain has become a politically correct assylum..ok the world can take that,we are small fry..but if America follows suit ,I dread to think what the consequences will be,you will prob end up with a muslim govt in generation or so,same as britain might well do.
As for the stock market jump....well so what ? here today-gone tommorrow most likely...its gonna end in tears whatever is done......but my opinion would be to let the whole rotten filthy edifice tumble and fall and take the consequences now ,rather than heap another enormous debt upon our childrens shoulders...a debt by the way that can never be paid back........all things considered,the financial fiasco,society itself,shortage of resources,a resurgent russia,china watching from the wings,rogue states in the process of acquiring nuclear weapons,a seeming lack of will to continue the fight against terrorism ,from whatever direction,a society which thinks more of terrorists "ooman rights" and "elf and safety" than it does of the victims of those same terrorists....there is major war not far off,anyone with eyes to see will realise that....Im just concerned whether america and the west will have the guts to fight ..or will we just bow down and surrender?That reason alone,if for no other,is enough to vote republican,not cos the republicans are marvelous ,but because obviously its a vote against obama and the Orwellian future he appears to promise us............and when I see the squabbling thats going on about black or white,or whether palin has lipstick surgically implanted in her lips etc etc etc ad infinitum......I just begin to wonder if the public ever sees beyond the media nonsense and actually think about the SERIOUS issues facing all of us...It isnt a game.
regards
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

but my opinion would be to let the whole rotten filthy edifice tumble and fall and take the consequences now ,rather than heap another enormous debt upon our childrens shoulders...a debt by the way that can never be paid back......

agreed. you build a society on a bubble, it is bound to burst, and should be allowed to fail.

that would be equality. when currency is the standard, not what you can convince someone to lend you.
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Agreed......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

pip,

"agreed. you build a society on a bubble, it is bound to burst, and should be allowed to fail."

Couldn't agree more!

"how can anyone believe the word of a professional politician?"

Can't believe either side, and that's a fact.

"those who do not study history..."

You have just written the answer to your questions. The best we can do is study the history of both men. What they both promise is deceit. The truth is in the history of what they have done, not said.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by lbj »

If he arrests you on a battlefield in Iraq or Afghanistan, don't call me to contribute to your defense fund. Wink
most "enemy combatants" are not arrested by our troops on the battlefield. they are handed over to our troops by afgans and iraqis to collect reward money. an Afghan taxi driver named dilawar was beaten to death by american troops while in their custody. he was accused of bombing a us post. it turned out that the afghans who turned him in and collected a reward were the true bombers. dilawar was just a poor, innocent shmuck that had nothing to do with it. terrorists do not usually turn in their own for a reward. i really cannot see how anyone can justify dilawar's murder. i am really interested to know your thought process in how you come to see this crime as good or justifiable.
Beyond that, torture works, no matter what those with a more genteel nature claim.
torture can be effective tool when it comes to "re-education" as was brilliantly shown by orwell in his room 101 but it is worse than useless when it comes to intelligence gathering. educated intelligence agents dropped it as a tool many decades ago. again i suggest you read bodyguard of lies. i can assure you that you will enjoy it. it is not liberal at all.
What I said was:

"In Viet Nam, the Vietnamese tortured people on a regular basis."
you said
I was on the ground watching as a man fell from a helicopter. Later I found out that they had taken two suspected NVA up for questioning. Without asking a single question, they grabbed the first guy and threw him out the door. His companion immediately started telling them everything he knew. When he was done, they threw him out the door. That was torture, and it worked.
you clearly stated that americans used torture to obtain intelligence. intelligence above all wins wars. strategy and tactics are of little use without good intelligence. we obviously lost the nam war under a republican administration that had no understanding of intelligence just as we are loosing the wars in afghanistan and iraq under the current republican administration that also has no idea what good intelligence means.
"I had learned what we all learned over there," McCain said. "Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine."
breaking a man does not mean gathering good intelligence. it is no problem to break anyone.... but so what...beating the crap out of someone for 5 years will not give you any intelligence.
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Loose Quotes.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

"you clearly stated that americans used torture to obtain intelligence. intelligence above all wins wars. strategy and tactics are of little use without good intelligence. we obviously lost the nam war under a republican administration that had no understanding of intelligence just as we are loosing the wars in afghanistan and iraq under the current republican administration that also has no idea what good intelligence means."

Please try to be accurate if you are going to quote me. Even though it may be true that Americans tortured people in Vietnam, it's not what I said. Beyond that, I never personally witnessed Americans torturing anyone. We were discussing what was done in Vietnam.

[most "enemy combatants" are not arrested by our troops on the battlefield. they are handed over to our troops by afgans and iraqis to collect reward money. an Afghan taxi driver named dilawar was beaten to death by american troops while in their custody. he was accused of bombing a us post. it turned out that the afghans who turned him in and collected a reward were the true bombers. dilawar was just a poor, innocent shmuck that had nothing to do with it. terrorists do not usually turn in their own for a reward. i really cannot see how anyone can justify dilawar's murder. i am really interested to know your thought process in how you come to see this crime as good or justifiable.]

I know you don't see this, but one of the wonderful things about this country, is that we prosecute people who murder others. If what you have written is true, I would bet that justice will prevail. This, if true, sounds like a case of murder. You won't need to wait long to find out if think it is "good or justifiable". If it's true, those who did the crime should pay. No system of justice is perfect, but ours is still the best.

It is inevitable that innocent people will be killed in a war. Except for a few aberrations, which you will find in any large group, most of our military will go out of there way to prevent innocents from being hurt. Sometimes, at the cost of their own lives.

[i am really interested to know your thought process in how you come to see this crime as good or justifiable.]

I am interested to see how you can attribute these thoughts to me. People often put words in my mouth here. You are the first to attempt to put thoughts into my mind. Stick to quoting what I write.

Are you ever going to answer my question as to how many deaths it would take to create a bright line for you to torture one man to prevent?
Would you consider any number of lives sufficient reason?

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

NPR had a program on sunday night i believe.
about torture, the veterans who committed torture, both from nam and this new war.
guess what? the people who torture end up with the same PTSD as the tortured.
the sadists who did the torture admitted on tape,that torture does not, read again, DOES NOT produce creditable evidence.

anyone who supports torture needs to be turned over to the hague for war crimes.

not just a leftie opinion, just the facts.
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War Crimes......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Pip,

[anyone who supports torture needs to be turned over to the hague for war crimes.

Not just a leftie opinion, just the facts.]

Like the rest of your "facts", an interesting conclusion.

As I have outlined before, there are circumstances where I would absolutely support torture. In your qualified legal opinion, what would "hague" charge me with?

Thanks for your opinion/"facts".......professor. :roll:

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

poor thing.
NPR is a republican directed news org.
facts you do not agree with really disturb you.
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