where i stand

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pippinwhitepaws
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nationalization of US bank

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

today will go down in history as the day a republican president nationalized the us economy.

socialism brought to you by gw bush and his crew of criminals.
lbj
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Post by lbj »

joe,

you wrote

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I am for everything you are against here. In Viet Nam, the Vietnamese tortured people on a regular basis.[b] I was on the ground watching as a man fell from a helicopter. Later I found out that they had taken two suspected NVA up for questioning. Without asking a single question, they grabbed the first guy and threw him out the door. His companion immediately started telling them everything he knew. When he was done, they threw him out the door. That was torture, and it worked.[/b](i added bold) 
i commented on that statement and then you wrote

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Please try to be accurate if you are going to quote me. Even though it may be true that Americans tortured people in Vietnam, it's not what I said. Beyond that, I never personally witnessed Americans torturing anyone. We were discussing what was done in Vietnam. 
in your initial statement you clearly say that you witnessed americans torture nvas in nam. i did not misquote you.

you asked
Each and every year, the efforts of the Democratic Party have been focused on taking more from those who have, and giving it to those who have not. That is what Obama is for. At what point does that redistribution of wealth reach it's ultimate goal? Do we ever ask those who have no wealth to do anything in return for giving it to them?
the distribution of wealth will be equitable when we all pay our part of the national budget and debt in proportion of our ownership of the national gdp.

you asked
Are you ever going to answer my question as to how many deaths it would take to create a bright line for you to torture one man to prevent?
Would you consider any number of lives sufficient reason?
the answer is as i told you previously, nothing justifies torture. your questions is loaded. it is the same as me asking you "when are you going to stop beating your wife". before i have the right to ask such a question i must prove that you beat your wife just as you must first prove that torturing a specific individual will save even one life.

regarding the torture and murder of dilawar you can read about it at
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/inter ... abuse.html and yes grunts at the bottom were given light sentences but no one in the chain of command was investigated or charged. just as in the civilian justice system the poor shmuck at the bottom gets the shaft and the ones at the top get away with murder.
Joe Ribaudo
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Looks Like Our Debate Is Over.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

As soon as you copy and paste the portion of my post where I state that I "witnessed americans torture nvas in nam.", we can continue our debate. As you will not be able to do that, the debate is over.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
lbj
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Post by lbj »

joe,

here is the quote you are looking for
I am for everything you are against here. In Viet Nam, the Vietnamese tortured people on a regular basis. I was on the ground watching as a man fell from a helicopter. Later I found out that they had taken two suspected NVA up for questioning. Without asking a single question, they grabbed the first guy and threw him out the door. His companion immediately started telling them everything he knew. When he was done, they threw him out the door. That was torture, and it worked.
you clearly state that you were on the ground watching as a man fell from a helicopter and later discovered that he was thrown out of a helicopter. since the dead man was nva i assume you were in nam when you witnessed this murder.
Joe Ribaudo
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Thanks.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

Many thanks for findin that quote. To be honest, I never would have picked it out in a million years.

Without going back, I believe I said both (2) men were thrown out. Double homicide. To be honest, I feel that's rather barbaric, and prefer the tried and true method of sawing off the heads of civilians, who are building hospitals in your country, with a rusty old sword.

Now that you have found that rascally quote, would you mind posting it again and highlighting the part where I said
I saw Americans torturing..........anyone.

Here is your claim: "in your initial statement you clearly say that you witnessed americans torture nvas in nam. i did not misquote you."

It's true that I spent a year in Vietnam.

As soon as you bring that quote into this conversation, I will apologize and we can continue this debate.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo
lbj
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Post by lbj »

joe,

if you think your statement does not mean that you seen americans torture the nva we cannot have an honest, intellectual conversation about politics or views of the world.

it would be like discussing the economy with someone who claims the fundamentals of an economy are its workers. reasonable discourse is not possible with someone who changes the meaning of words whenever the standard definition does not meet their need of the moment.
Joe Ribaudo
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Reading.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

The first requirement for us to have any kind of discussion here, is that we both be able to read and understand what we are reading. I have asked you to copy, paste and highlight the quote where I have said I saw Americans Torture anyone in Vietnam.

You brought a quote where I said I saw someone thrown out of a helicopter. As soon as you learn to read and understand what you are reading, I will be happy to continue our dialog.

I can't make it any clearer than that.

Joe Ribaudo
lbj
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Post by lbj »

joe

Code: Select all

In Viet Nam, the Vietnamese tortured people on a regular basis. I was on the ground watching as a man fell from a helicopter. Later I found out that they had taken two suspected NVA up for questioning. Without asking a single question, they grabbed the first guy and threw him out the door. His companion immediately started telling them everything he knew. When he was done, they threw him out the door. That was torture, and it worked.
"In Viet Nam, the Vietnamese tortured people on a regular basis. " indicates you were in nam.


" I was on the ground watching as a man fell from a helicopter." while you were in nam you seen a man fall from a helicopter.

" Later I found out that they had taken two suspected NVA up for questioning. Without asking a single question, they grabbed the first guy and threw him out the door. His companion immediately started telling them everything he knew. When he was done, they threw him out the door. That was torture, and it worked." you found out 2 nva were taken into a helicopter. the choppers in nam were american so the torturers where americans or south vietnamese acting under american orders. in either case the ultimate responsibility for the torture and muder falls on the americans.
Joe Ribaudo
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No Vietmanese Helicopter Pilots????

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

"the choppers in nam were american so the torturers where americans or south vietnamese acting under american orders. in either case the ultimate responsibility for the torture and muder falls on the americans."

This is a twisted piece of logic, even for someone who hates America.
You need to do a little more research. In this case, the Internet will work for you.

It's obvious that you were not in country during the war. The Vietnamese flew everything, including helicopters. Many an American GI Owes his life to a Viet Nam air force (VNAF) helicopter pilot. While it's true it was usually a risky proposition, they were not all poor pilots. Map reading was another story altogether.

Quit trying to put words in my mouth. I know and mean what I say.

Joe Ribaudo
lbj
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Post by lbj »

joe
This is a twisted piece of logic, even for someone who hates America.
what gives you the right to tell me i hate america? go fuck yourself. our conversation is over.
Joe Ribaudo
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Why Oh Why?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

lbj,

Maybe it was comments like this:

"the choppers in nam were american so the torturers where americans or south vietnamese acting under american orders. in either case the ultimate responsibility for the torture and muder falls on the americans."

You are what you are, and you have not proved your point. I never saw an American torture anyone. I never heard of that happening until I got home and heard people like you spouting their hatred for the American military.

First thing you need to do, if you are going to talk about Vietnam, is learn something about it. Most of the truth has been buried by those who hate the military, but anyone who wants to present an intelligent argument against it can find out what really happened.

Do you know when Saigon fell to the North Vietnamese? Do you know when our troops left the country? Do you know anything about it at all?

If you were really proud of what you are writing, you would put your name at the bottom of each post........right?

Joe Ribaudo
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

By S. Brian Willson
[Printer-Friendly Version]

I became aware of torture as a U.S. policy in 1969 when I was serving as a USAF combat security officer working near Can Tho City in Vietnam's Mekong Delta. I was informed about the CIA's Phong Dinh Province Interrogation Center (PIC) at the Can Tho Army airfield where supposedly "significant members" of the VCI (Viet Cong infrastructure) were taken for torture as part of the Phoenix Pacification Program. A huge French-built prison nearby was also apparently utilized for torture of suspects from the Delta region. Many were routinely murdered.

Naive, I was shocked! The Agency for International Development (AID) working with Southern Illinois University, for example, trained Vietnamese police and prison officials in the art of torture ("interrogations") under cover of "public safety." American officials believed they were teaching "better methods," often making suggestions during torture sessions conducted by Vietnamese police.

Instead of the recent euphemism "illegal combatants," the United State in Vietnam claimed prisoners were "criminal" and therefore exempt from Geneva Convention protections.

The use of torture as a function of terror, or its equivalent in sadistic behavior, has been historic de facto U.S. policy.

Our European ancestors' shameful, sadistic treatment of the indigenous inhabitants based on an ethos of arrogance and violence has become ingrained in our values. "Manifest destiny" has rationalized as a religion the elimination or assimilation of those perceived to be blocking American progress—at home or abroad—a belief that expansion of the nation, including subjugation of natives and others, is divinely ordained, that our "superior race" is obligated to "civilize" those who stand in the way.

When examining my roots in New York and New England, I discovered that Indian captives were skinned alive and dragged through the streets of New Amsterdam (New York City) in the 1640s. Scalping enabled Indian bounty hunters to be paid.

Captains Underhill and Endicott, in the Massachusetts Bay Colony governed by John Winthrop, spent their time "burning and spoiling the country" of Indians in Rhode Island and Connecticut in 1636–37, while sparing the children and women as slaves.

My hometown of Geneva in the Finger Lakes region of New York State was once home to the Seneca Nation with its flourishing farms, orchards, and sturdy houses. In one two-week period in September 1779, General George Washington's orders "to lay waste…that the country…be…destroyed," instilling "terror" among the Indians, were dutifully carried out by General Sullivan, who promised that "the Indians shall see that there is malice enough in our hearts to destroy everything that contributes to their support." Sullivan's campaign has been described as a ruthless policy of scorched earth, bearing comparison with Sherman's march to the sea or the search-and-destroy missions of U.S. soldiers in Vietnam.

In northern California, where I now live, the same grueling history exists. Bret Harte wrote in 1860 that little children and old women were mercilessly stabbed and their skulls crushed by axes: "Old women…lay weltering in blood, their brains dashed out…while infants…with their faces cloven with hatchets and their bodies ghastly wounds" lay nearby.

In 1920, the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP) investigated the conduct of U.S. troops who had occupied Haiti since 1915. More than 3,000 Haitians were killed by U.S. Marines, many having been tortured.

When indigenous Nicaraguan resistance fought against the occupying U.S. forces in the late 1920s, the Marines launched counterinsurgency war. U.S. policymakers insisted on "stabilizing" the country to enforce loan repayments to U.S. banks. They defined the resistance forces as "bandits," an earlier equivalent to the "criminal prisoners" in Vietnam and "illegal combatants" in Iraq. Since the United States claimed not to be fighting a legitimate military force, any Nicaraguan perceived as interfering with the occupiers was commonly subjected to beatings, tortures, and beheadings. When the Somoza dictatorship (installed by the United States) was overthrown in 1979, the Somoza torture centers were immediately destroyed.

In 1946, the U.S. Army institutionalized teaching torture techniques to Latin American militaries with the opening of its School of the Americas (SOA), which continues today as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation (WHISC).

Torture has been a historical U.S. practice in police stations and prisons—and via countless vigilante crimes of sadistic torture and mutilation against black Americans.

The Wickersham Commission's 1931 Report on Lawlessness in Law Enforcement concluded that "the third degree is the employment of methods which inflict suffering, physical or mental, upon a person, in order to obtain from that person information about a crime… The third degree is widespread. The third degree is a secret and illegal practice."

Seventy years later, the 2002 Human Rights Watch World Report documented systematic use of torture by U.S. police: "thousands of allegations of police abuse, including excessive use of force, such as unjustified shootings, beatings, fatal chokings, and rough treatment."

My studies of brutality in Massachusetts prisons in 1981 concluded (in "Walpole State Prison, Massachusetts: An Exercise in Torture") by noting "a clear pattern and history of systematic torture including withholding water, heat, bedding, medical care, and showers; imposition of hazards such as flooding cells, placing foreign matter in food, igniting clothes and bedding, spraying with mace and tear gas; regular physical assaults and beatings; and forcing prisoners to lie face down, naked and handcuffed to one another…on freezing…outdoor ground while being kicked and beaten." This was two decades before the Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo revelations.

Terry Kupers, a psychiatrist, has testified about human rights abuses in U.S. prisons. "The plight of prisoners in the USA is strikingly similar to the plight of the Iraqis who were abused by American GIs. Prisoners are maced, raped, beaten, starved, left naked in freezing cold cells and otherwise abused in too many American prisons, as substantiated by findings in many courts…"

It would behoove us to attempt to understand the underlying psychological defenses that seem to have afflicted us like a cultural mental illness since our origins.

S. Brian Willson was head of a USAF combat security unit in Vietnam.
A lawyer by training, and a writer (www.brianwillson.com), he is a member of Humboldt Bay Veterans for Peace,
a Northern California contact for VVAW, and a member of the Arcata Nuclear Free Zone and Peace Commission.
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

lbj
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Post by lbj »

pip,

good articles. just goes to show if a people dont know their history they will repeat it and we are repeating it now.

the torture of ibn al-sheikh al-libi help get us into the iraq mess. we tortured him until he said al qaeda was in cahoots with saddam which turned out to be completely false. a tortured person will try with all his might to figure out what his torturer wants him to say and then say it to stop the pain. torturers are sadists not intelligence officers.
Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

I never would have believed when I joined this Forum, that I would one day be trading insults with Akmadinajad and Hugo Chavez. For the life of me, I have no idea why they are wasting their time on such a small audience. One bright spot in all of this, is that the tag team of Fidel Castro and Kim Jung il seem to have slipped into a drug induced coma of silence.

I am tired of being the lone voice of opposition to this young American Communist Party pep rally. No real point in it, as the only ones in here, besides me, are American haters.

I will bow out of what passes with you guys as political debate.

Joe Ribaudo
pippinwhitepaws
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Post by pippinwhitepaws »

everyone who doesn't believe like you is an american hater.
you are ill.
seek medical attention.

i joined the infantry, you were drafted.
the oath i took was to protect the united states from all enemies foreign and domestic.
you are the domestic threat to a free and equal society
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