propaganda?

This is a moderated LDM discussion forum for those who prefer to be protected from disagreeable posts. Your moderator is Joe Ribaudo.

NOTE: The moderator will see your IP if you post to this form!

Moderator: Joe Ribaudo

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

propaganda?

Postby don » Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:30 pm

joe, less of the b.s propaganda please....that syrupy sweet nonsense you sent could have been mistaken for a hallmark card....im assuming it was you who sent it :lol: if it wasnt can u please find the culprit and fit him out with a tin shack (with no running water) in alabama? mobile would be perfect...... :D
Don update your email address

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

It's A Great Country

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:58 pm

Don,

Thank you for your e-mail reply.

If you were to compare the U.S. to the U.K., you would find some interesting facts.

Considering the size of the U.K., (slightly smaller than the state of Oregon) and the population, (60,609,153) and compare that to the U.S.
population, (298,444,215) it's not hard to understand why the U.S. total crime statistics are the highest in the world.

On the other hand, it's hard to understand why the U.K. total crime statistics are the third highest in the world. You should probably not be throwing stones at anyone. :lol:

As for the people who live in "abject poverty", people in the U.S. who live below the poverty line amount to 12%. In the U.K., that number is 17%.

Our Country was built by people trying to better themselves, not by Government handouts. It's worked pretty well in the short time we have been in existence. While we are growing stronger, as a nation, the U.K. is growing smaller and weaker.

As for our Native Americans......There is no doubt that we destroyed their way of life, as well as damn near exterminating them, but a good many of our people have worked to help right the wrongs that we have done.

On the other hand, your hands are hardly clean over there. The British Armys have killed more innocent natives in this world, than we could even imagine. Don't make me bring out that long, long list. We are pikers compared to the U.K.

I won't be flying over to the U.K. for health care any time soon, but I am glad it works for you.

Was this too "syrupy sweet"? :lol:

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:12 am

ah lets see....crime statistics,thankfully over here guns arent readily or legally available,thats not to say some scumbags dont get hold of them,cos th ey do, but guncrime is still a relative rarity thank god....unlike america where another "shootout at the ok corral" is but a minor incident :lol:
poverty? 12%of 298,444,215 is marginally more than 17% of 60,609,153 im certain you would agree....but of course it doesnt end there does it? america is a much richer country with more resources so theres really no need for the figures to be so high......
your country was built by a rag tag army of foreign mercenaries,and as for building a better life for themselves, i guess the spanish conquistadors had the same purpose.....stronger? weaker ? thats relative of course....it appears that america is no longer the power it was,and doesnt instill fear in smaller countries the way it did..i.e n.korea, iran and a few more...that gives me no pleasure to say that,cos because of that (partly) its become a very volatile and unsafe world...but its the truth unpalatable asit is......now ive no issue with you or anyone else believing the usa is the finest place blah blagh blagh ad nauseum....but why not believe in it and bask in the reflected glory privately? and allow others to believe potherwise and desist from trying to ram a vanload of "america is great" pamphlets up my ass. :wink:
as for growing smaller, thats plainly not the case...for better or worse britain is now (has been fer some years) a part of the european community which is now slowly including east europe too ..plus of course its links with australia, new zealand,some past commonwealth countries who still retain close ties.....so as they say "size isnt everything" :lol: anyway any country with a nuclear detterent alone is a major player(if indeed thats what you want to........... be good
Don update your email address

TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Propaganda

Postby TC ASKEY » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:28 am

Don, We ran the rag tag army of mercenaries out of our country long ago. We sent them back to England.

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Feeling Safer?

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:00 am

Well said, Terry.

Don,

You are in the right place for keeping your head well buried below the surface of the sand.

If you still have some glimmer of personal freedom and the desire to protect yourself and your family before the Bobbies fianlly show up, you might take time to read the following:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What Gun Controllers Don't Want You to Know
Written by Howard Nemerov
Friday, June 11, 2004


I used to support gun control, meaning civilian disarmament. There was no reason, the rationale went, for a private citizen to own a gun. The only ones who wanted guns had small genitalia, were paranoid crazies, and criminals.

All this was assumed, without any empirical or statistical research to base it upon. Due to the influence of one of my clients who is a person of great honor, I began to research the issue of gun control on my own. Having been a college boy who loved library research, I knew how to ferret out fact from fiction. It was interesting to find that the claims of the NRA, John Lott, et al., were easy to verify from neutral or even slightly pro-gun control sources.

More ominously, I found that the gun control groups consistently lied or twisted minor factoids taken out of context in their articles. This begged the question: if they are lying to advance their agenda, can we really trust the utopian outcome they promote as true?

The Utopian Thesis of Gun Control
The philosophy behind gun control is that by limiting access to guns, the public is made a safer place. (1,2) This is a noble undertaking, and all persons of conscience should support this. If it were proven beyond a reasonable doubt that disarming the law-abiding public would enhance public safety, save children’s lives, and enhance or preserve our civil rights, I would be in favor of gun control.

Of course, there is a ''competing'' hypothesis: placing firearms into the hands of law-abiding citizens accomplishes the same goals with fewer unpleasant side-effects.

These hypotheses were being tested during my research. A simple litmus test could be set up; one can examine actual crime rates and trends in countries similar to our culture that have recently disarmed the public, and see what resulted.

The United Kingdom is an English speaking democracy with a bicameral legislature, similar enough for our litmus test. The UK instituted a massive gun ban in 1997, finally banning all handguns. While a tool of choice for criminals, because of its ease of concealment, this attribute also makes it a valuable personal protection tool for a law-abiding citizen.

If the gun control thesis is the correct one, then it should follow that by taking out an element that allegedly incites criminal behavior, in this case guns, crime rates should drop. So let’s take a look at the statistical record to find out.

Facts, Not Rhetoric

What always made me reluctant to address the issue of gun control was all the hyperbole surrounding it from both sides of the issue. Therefore, it was imperative to be able to locate similar statistics from multiple sources, to insure factual validity.

First, it is important to establish a pre-ban baseline and then compare it to similar research after the ban to determine crime trends. For that, we will reference the International Crime Victimization Surveys of 1992 and 2000. (3)

[b] In general, the research shows that violent crime rates were lower in the UK than the United States in 1992. (Rated in percent of those interviewed responding ''yes'' to being victimized.)

Burglary with entry: UK – 2.5% U.S. – 3.5%
Robbery: UK – .9% U.S. – 1.7%
Sexual assault of women: UK – .3% U.S. – 1.5%
Assault with force: UK – 1.1% U.S. – 2.2%



In the 2000 survey the researchers combined the three violent crimes of robbery, rape, and assault into one category entitled ''Selected Contact Crime.'' Here is what they report (post-ban for UK.)

Burglary with entry: UK – 2.8% U.S. – 1.8%
Selected contact crime: UK – 3.6% U.S. – 1.9%



These two reports were done with essentially the same criteria and methods, and they clearly show that while selected violent crime rates rose 100% in the UK, they fell 65 % in the U.S. During this time, Britain outlawed private ownership of firearms, while over 70 million additional civilian firearms were sold in the U.S. (4) At the very least, a reasonable person is forced to conclude that availability of firearms to the general public is not a contributing factor to any increase in crime.
These trends are confirmed by Britain’s own Home Office. (5) In the period of 1997 through 2001, homicide rose 19% in the UK while it fell 12% in the USA. (6) Violent crime incidents rose 26% in the UK while falling 12% in the USA. (7) Robbery rates rose 92% in the UK and fell 15% in the USA. (8)

Trust Us, We’re Your Government

''What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance?'' – Thomas Jefferson

''Congress by the power of taxation, by that of raising an army, and by their control over the militia, have the sword in one hand and the purse in the other. Shall we be safe without either? Let him candidly tell me, where and when did freedom exist, when the sword and purse were given up from the people?'' – Patrick Henry

This same British Home Office report attempts to put a happy face on the UK crime trend by proclaiming on page one that during the period of 2002-2003 crime has dropped, attempting to devalue the entire body of the report to the reader. Such hyperbole is also expressed in another British Home Office report entitled ''Crime in England and Wales 2002/2003,'' (9) which consists of two parts. The first section relies on Britain’s new Crime Survey, a governmental attempt to show crime reduction by selecting a small group of subjects to question. The Crime Survey findings contrast sharply with the second section of actual compiled police statistics that show sharp rises in nearly all crime categories.

Here are some crime trends collected from UK police crime data for the period of 1995 to 2003. (10)

Homicide rose 41%.
Attempted murder rose 29%.
Total Violent Crime rose 219%.


For those who believe that gun control benefits women and children, who are generally smaller and less physically capable of protecting themselves, it is interesting to note that during this time period female rape increased 129%, child abduction rose 143%, and cruelty to or neglect of children increased 79%.
In his book ''More Guns, Less Crime,'' John Lott discusses how when criminals know more citizens are armed they switch from crimes where they come into direct contact with their victims to crimes where there is no contact. So instead of robbery, where they confront the intended victim, they wait until people leave home and commit burglary. In an email interview, Professor Lott said: ''They do this in order to avoid victims who are now better able to defend themselves.''

''More Guns, Less Crime'' showed how such a crime trend is indeed in effect in Right-to-Carry states, where violent (confrontational) crime is dropping faster than property (non-confrontational) crime. The reason I bring this up now is because this substitution effect is borne out in the UK, where total property crime dropped 1% from 1995 to 2003. (11) As victims are more available due to the loss of self-defense capabilities, criminals see no need to spend the extra effort to plan burglary in order to avoid their victims; it is far easier to confront them and wave a gun in their face, demanding loot and sex.

Some may still want to deny the truth, saying ''but the population has increased, so even if crime increases, there still is no increase in crime rates.'' On the surface, this is a valid argument, but the same report shows that violent crime rates (per 100,000 population) increased 216% from 1995 to 2003, while property offenses dropped 2%. (12)

In her book ''Guns and Violence,'' Joyce Lee Malcolm discusses the same substitution effect was active historically as well. In the first part of the book, she does an overview of the earlier eras in Britain and concludes:

''...this era in which firearms first came into common use in everyday life as well as for the citizen militia, the century in which an Englishman’s right to have 'arms for his defence' was proclaimed, also witnessed a sharp decline in violent homicide.'' (13)

In an e-mail interview, I asked Professor Malcolm about the discrepancy between the British Home Office Crime Survey results and the police statistics included in the same report from 2003.

Question: In your book you mention in the introduction that there are some irregularities in how the police report crime. Does this in fact make the Crime Survey a more accurate indicator of crime trends in the UK?

Professor Malcolm: ''The differences between the UK crime victimization studies and police statistics are indeed confusing and almost always at odds. Both come from government and are official. For many years the English police seemed to record only about 1/3 of the crimes reported to them, making the victimization studies more accurate. They also purposely underestimated a crime like burglary, for example, by counting several offences by the same individual as one burglary. The police reporting was so unabashedly political that the victimization studies were undertaken.''

Question: This brings up two concerns: first, it seems that one of the governmental branches, either the Home Office or the police, is in effect lying. Second, how can people trust the government when they can’t even come out with a consistent answer on crime rates or even what constitutes a crime?

Professor Malcolm: ''The government now seems to be insisting that the police actually record a higher level of the crimes reported to them, but don’t seem willing to explain what proportion or how it is being done. As a result, as crime rates go up dramatically in police statistics, especially for violent crime, the government keeps saying they are not really going up, it is just that the police are using a different method of recording crime. But for some crime, such as murder, the police could not easily have been under-reporting in the past, although they do track murders to pull them from the totals if the final judgment is anything less than a court finding of murder. At this point the government has used the ''new method of calculating crime'' excuse so repeatedly and without explanation that I am inclined not to trust their assurances that crime is going down or remaining steady. Murder, for instance, is at the highest level since statistics were kept.''

Question: Why is the British Crime Survey is at odds with the International Crime Victimization Survey of 2002 and your own article at Reason.com (14), which indicate that the UK is indeed increasingly more crime-ridden in many categories than the U.S.?

Professor Malcolm: ''I think the international crime victimization study released in 2002 is more reliable and offers a comparison of how England and Wales are doing compared to other industrial countries. Sadly, England has many times the violent crime of most European countries. But their methods of fighting crime by disarming and prosecuting victims is so counter-productive that the results do not surprise me. Unfortunately it is in the government’s interest to demonstrate that its crime-fighting initiative is successful, which makes its assertions doubtful.''

The key point to remember is that murder is a statistic that is hard to fudge, and therefore a reliable indicator of crime trends. The police actually under-report murder rates, because if the court reduces the sentence, the police subtract that case from murder totals. Even so, murder has risen dramatically since the gun ban went into effect.

Referring back to the Founders’ quotes leading this section, pray tell me this: how are the people of the United Kingdom are going to force a redressing of grievances upon their government? They have surrendered their arms and their purse, and therefore have no protection against a government acting without restraint, nor do they have the means to show their government any spirit of resistance to flawed and deadly policy. Once again, the age-old lessons are being taught on yet another stage: absolute power corrupts absolutely; and if you surrender your personal responsibility to a government which promises to take care of you, they will only take care of themselves.

Conclusion
The English experience proves that guns and violence have no corresponding relationship that justifies gun control. Do we want to go down the same road as the UK when the evidence is so alarming? When the consequences could be so deadly? How will we force our government to return power to the people once it has taken it?

Perhaps gun control will go away when we have the ''Million Armed Mom March in Washington, D.C.'' Women will drive this issue when they ask the politicians, ''Tell me exactly how you expect me to defend my children against violent predators? If gun control is so wonderful, how come more women are being raped and children being abused in England since guns were banned? Do you plan to sacrifice our lives to pander to your moneyed sponsor/constituents? Or do you just want power so much that you don’t care who suffers?''

George Santayana coined the phrase: ''Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.'' To which I humbly wish to add: Those who have tasted power and developed an addiction to it, studied of history, intend to repeat it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(All emphasis in bold by Joe)

You can run away from history Don, but you can't hide from it. These are the facts and I hope you removed your head long enough to read them. If not, good luck, because that is what you and your family will need to survive as England speeds down the road to anarchy.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Postby djui5 » Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:17 pm

MY COUNTRY IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!!!







:lol: :lol: :lol:
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:16 pm

joe , see what youve started? now some other pratt has chimed in.....this issue began with a personal email which i did not solicit in any way....YOU decided to send me a hallmark card glorifying the country which is america....its your right to to do that..glorify america that is....allow others not to.......you can have your arsenal of weapons...allow me not to..you can love america...allow me the right not to.........
i havent got time right now to read all your post as ive more important things to do tonight,but fear not i will and i will answer ......maybe it would be better if this discussion was continued privately, as no doubt the pack of baying wolves will repeat your every word.........as for getting my head out the sand ...maybe you might take the time to get your head out your ass?......more guns -less gun crime?....sigh.....what next? less crack-more crack addicts?....or maybe less criminals -more crime maybe?
Don update your email address

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:43 pm

short answer for now? howard who?.......another pro gun person trying to add more weight to his statements by pretending to be previously anti gun?he obviously either doesnt know or ignores several points of british law,his 2argument and conclusions are somewhat flawed s i will endeavour to show prob tomorrow...........but the wider point is this ..i dont appreciate personal emails such as u sent,im not politically motivated,and im not in the mood for being indoctrinated by anyone....either by your b.s propaganda or by your supporters....remember you sent this b.s to me for no apparent reasion,unwanted, uncalled for and un appreciated..........maybe now your previous battle has ended at least for time being....you want to start another row?.......if so at least pick a subject worth arguing over.......you lost the previous gun control topic.....you lost the iraq topic ...and you lost the caen discussion.....will you never learn?
Don update your email address

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Tap Dancing Away From The Truth

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:30 pm

Don,

Your previous anti-American statements make you a prime target for this kind of stuff. I get tons of e-mails that are trash. There's a little thing called "deleat" and "block sender". Takes about two seconds to make sure your never bothered again.

The reason you can't answer, is because you have no answer. I supply sources for my points. You have none. What you have is a nation going backwards towards more crime, while we have a nation going away from it.

I will be happy to supply my source's sources, but that would just confuse you. Checking sources is something I do all the time. It seems like the right thing to do, instead of resorting to falsehoods and calling every fact that does not agree with your pre-concieved conclusions......Bull Shit!

I did not loose any of our previous debates. I used sources to disprove everything you said. You immediatly tap-dance away from the truth burning the English language as you retreat. Caen is a perfect example.
You claimed the American's had destroyed the town, I quoted sources that confirmed that the battle was under the control and command of the British Army.

You condemn us for what we did to the Native Americans, and tap-dance away from the millions of innocent lives that have fallen to British guns in a vast number of countries over the centuries.

Why would we continue this conversation in private? You have already said you don't appreciate getting the unsolicited truth. No need to get crazy.......you tell me where I am mistaken, I will show you (with sources) where I am not, and you will just go silent again.

I had forgotten that you folks don't care for patriotic speech's untill someone is bombing your ass into a mudhole. Once the bombing stops, you have the nasty habit of tossing your patriots to the side of the road and spitting on them. Kind of like what you do to us.

Take care,

Joe

User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Postby Mike McChesney » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:13 am

Hey Don,

You have every right in the world to like and dislike anything you choose.

If you chose to post those likes and dislikes on a public forum that is dedicated to a topic whose adherents are primarily American, plan on receiving a$$loads of negative responses.

People like myself, who spent a goodly portion of their lives fighting in defense of this country,will most definitely have something to say to you.

I tell you that I have absolutely no animus towards all you limeys! :D I spent 14 years in special operations units in both the US Navy and the US Army. I was an advisor with the Royal Mariunes during the Falklands Campaign, on the HMS Hermes. In 1985, I was in Iraq, along with British, Australian, and German Troops, teaching the Republican Guard tactics and usage of some equipment.

That said, I will respond to some of your proclamations:

1. You are absolutely correct. There is no reason that such a percentage of our population should be in poverty.

2. There is no reason that many of our citizens should be homeless and out of work.

3. There is no reason our children should be so poorly taught in our public schools, and have such a high drop out rate.

4. There is no reason why we should have lost the respect and fear of these little trouble-making countries around the world.

I say NO reason, but there is actually a reason. It's the same reason that for the first time, we had terrorist acts performed inside the national borders of the United States (in 1993, not 2001).

That reason is Political Correctness, and liberal bias in the media. I'm not a Conservative, nor am I a Republican. I am, however a Hawkish Libertarian. Since the 1940's, no country dared launch an attack against the United States. They knew that we would rain down a $hit$torm on them. But starting in the sixties, the US started drifting away from the values we held so dear for so long. Things like personal responsibility, and personal honor became a joke. Now, everything is somebody else's fault. Tell them whatever they want to hear, after all, it's only words.

We have suffered some drawbacks because of all our freedoms. Things here in the US have an ebb and flow to them. People get sick of right wing garbage, and they move to the left and liberalism. Eventually, people get tired of the politically correct mentality, and vote the right wingers back in.

We may have a pretty high amount of people in poverty, but most of them are there because of the poor choices they have made. The United States has more millionaires per capita than any other country in the world. In this country, you are only as destitute as you allow yourself to be.

Our only problem is, with all this liberty, there comes a certain amount of responsibility. Sometimes, people forget about that part, and think that they deserve everything for nothing. They're not homeless because they chose to smoke crack rather than pay their bills and go to a normal job. No way, the man is keeping them down. Bush is sending away all the jobs. The economy is down. It's a conspiracy. Did I miss anything?

I'll take this country, with all it's faults over your little island, with cameras on every street corner any day. That's my choice.

And one other thing, if we are so bad, why is it that we have more people coming to our country to live (legally and illegally) than any other country in the world?

Maybe next time Don. Sorry that was so long.

Mike

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:57 am

well mike, yours was a measured reply, a refreshing change on here....you made your point in defense of america ,while admitting that there are issues in your own country that are indefensible.....thats being even handed opposed to joes blinkered view....
but as for the statement that most people who live in poverty are there because of bad choices they themselves have made....id take issue with that ....there is a large minority of people who havent the luxury of being able to function normally in society, i.e handicapped, mentally and physical.ly..these unlucky people have a difficult enough life as it is without the slur of "welfare wizard" being thrust upon them.america is a great country if you are financially secure ,but if youre not then watch out! the true test of a nations civilised behaviour is how we treat our underpriviliged and sick and aged and young for that matter, regardless of social station or financial privilege.......joe doesnt believe in handouts, not for ordinary people that is , and yet the biggest reciever of "handouts" are governments.
the "presidency" of the united states is "up for sale" end of every term,its bought ,dont kid yourself its any different cos thats what it amounts to....is that right?
ok ,now this issue, same as every other issue on here is twisted,turned and manipulated till every possible meaning is squeezed out of it.......my issue was not an attack on america as its been made to look ,its a protest against that buffoon sending unsolicited emails full of pie in the sky bullshit to me. so...i responded by saying in effect that no country is that good........
joe wants an answer on gun control ...again.....well lets start by saying the issues arent comparable....america has a gun culture,always has,its very soul is steeped in it...fuelled by the ar,ms industrys propaganda....guns are big bucks......britain hasnt had a gun culture, its population doesnt want1...why? partlycos people see the example of america,....its not wanted here.....thank god for that....now is there gun crime here? certainly, but compared to yours its insignificant...
again ill state unequivocably i have no issue with americans,ordinary americans are swept along with the tide same as we all are...the leaders?thats another kettle of fish!
okay i lived in cali for many years) (slight pause to allow the anti californianlobby on here to boo and hiss)....i came to a decision to leave and take my family to live in britain..why? well a numbrer of things ,but the catalyst was 19 homicides in 1 weekend in santa paula where i lived......if i recall correctly 7 were domestic i.e husband shooting wife, vice versa..one involved a person shooting his next door neighbour over of all things a dispute over a boundary fence, 3-4 gang related "random" shootings and the rest were plain good old fashioned mugging/shootings. coupled with the son and daughter being required to pass thro metal detectors etc to enter school...pupils being found in possession of guns in school ,im talking bout 12 year olds here remember..the general malaise apparent in all areas ,and a few other issues....i recall sitting down that following week with wife and asking "do we really want this kind of life either for ourselves or for our children?
any sane person would know the answer....it wasnt as though we lived in a deprived area ,i was employed in a reasonabley good paying job,we had the normal amenities etc no prob there......so is britain paradise? no it certainly isnt ,is it better for me ? yes undoubtedly and the fundamental and most import antreason is the lack of gun culture. now that was a personal choice for me...i neither crave applause for it nor expect derision....but can cope with either :lol: if someone comes to different conclusions from diff experiences thats fine by me also...my only objection was to having "america is marvelous" rammed down my throat.....an "iraq is great" email sent to all of you might have same effect im sure.....
as for me going silent joe, as i recall you were the one who slunk off during a recent conversation like a spoilt child who couldnt have his favourite toy............as you also did during the "iraq debate" for that matter.......its attitudes and ignorance like yours that gives decent americans a bad image,but unfortunately its the loud mouths like yourself who get noticed...the decent american rarely gets heard
Don update your email address

TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Propaganda

Postby TC ASKEY » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:25 am

Don,

I can certainly see where you quailify under the mentally handicapped part of your statements. Glad to see that you took Merle Haggards music to heart and moved out of this country. If only more liberals would follow in your footsteps. By chance,is there room for 12 million wetbacks over there ?

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:42 am

tc assey thats what i like to hear,every time an asshole like yourself utters some unthought out, unqualified, ignorant, intolerant remark like that itjust serves to reinforce my opinions of your kind.ok now youve made your assinine remark you can now go back to what you no do ubt do best.....licking joes ass......... go on boy...im sure youve been missed by now
Don update your email address

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

No Answers

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:25 am

Don,

The first thing people without an argument do, is start calling others vile names. I am surprised that you would stoop so low. Thought you had a better education than that. Go back and look at the "measured" responses to your posts and then reread your own.

If that's your best, I would hate to see your worst.

No one is "raming" anything down your throat. You say your piece, we say ours. It's called free speech.

Take care,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Propaganda

Postby TC ASKEY » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:27 am

Don, If you do not care for my comment, "tough shit". Iam listed in the phone book. Look me up if you ever get back here on vacation.
TERRY - Update your email address. Current one is dead and you will not receive notices.

User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Postby Mike McChesney » Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:59 am

You are sorely mistaken. The number of people who are homeless due to mental incompetence is miniscule.

Mostly, it is due to drug addiction, poor life choices, etc. Our left would have you believe that the majority of our homeless are in that condition due in no part to themselves. They say it is because George Bush is bad, and prevents them from getting jobs. That's BS.

The left wing government handout policy DOES NOT WORK! If it did, New Orleans would have been a paradise before Katrina. The Far Left Liberals have had complete reign in New Orleans since the times of Jacob Waltz. I'm from New Orleans, so this is a subject with which I'm intimately familiar. The City of New Orleans had been handing out "Free Money" (welfare, food stamps, WIC, etc) for years. Instead of people using it for a crutch during hard times (like it was meant for), there were MANY families four generations deep that have known no other income but welfare. There were many generations of families that have never lived anywhere else but the Housing Projects. New Orleans public schools were some of the worst in the nation. For a city with a population of about 700,000, to have an average of one murder per day was horrendous. THAT is what liberalism does to a people. You start out helping htem because it's the right thing to do, but what you wind up with is a large populous that have learned they do not have to work to get money. When some started talking about putting term limits on welfare, people lost their minds. Not one person who was talking about limiting government handouts in any way was reelected.

PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY! It was lost, and needs to be found. If you grow reliant on government money to feed your family, and your government check is late, who gets blamed? Is it you for not providing for your family? NOPE! The government gets blamed for being late. If you would have had a regular job, your check wouldn't have been late. You also get a good feeling about yourself when you know YOU are providing for your family.

That's the biggest problem here.

Mike

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:16 pm

bit 1 sided isnt it joe?....doesnt the handicapped jibe. the room for 12 million wetbacks jibe, count as abuse? as for "stooping so low" my crimes are nothing when compared to the actions of others on here. reprimand for me-but none for tc askey? hmmm one might wonder why.
tcaskey...."if i dont like your comment -tough shit".....i neither like it or dislike it....cos from the moment you refferred to mexicans as wetbacks ,you labelled yourself pretty clearly....personal attacks on me make no iimpression, i wouldnt expect my views to be here to be sanctioned....nor would i care either way....my impressions are acquired from my experiences ,same as yours are from yours......i didnt start this abuse -you did ...if u dont like that then "touche"...i.e "tough shit"..
joe if u are gonna moderate this forum then at least moderate it in an unbiased and even handed way ,otherwise the "moderating "is pointless.
Don update your email address

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:04 pm

mike, are you saying that the numbers of handicapped disabled people soley reliant on "handouts" are miniscule? and would you begrudge them financial assistance?is everyone who is homeless ,wether disabled or not an alcoholic, crack imbibing neer do well? is everyone who is homeless and jobless because their local community is an industrial wasteland scroungers, spongers etc?...is everyone who comes under the banner of homeless, unemployed, disabled ,handicapped guilty by association? now im not sure you are saying this,but it could be interpreted in that way.
as for people being as wealthy and secure as they want to be,now that is nonsense.its obvious that not everyone is created equal,some intelligent ,some not so intelligent, some healthy ,some not so healthy....and of course if we want to we can go to the extremes of capabilities....geniuses......and subnormal......some people start out on the road to life and are beaten before they begin thro no fault of their own..shouldnt society feel obliged to help those people? life long help if necessary?and can you say hand on heart that your society does enough for them?
liberalism is the cause of all ills ,im sure i hear you say...well its not, although liberalism has its bad points ,some in fact are ridicolously bad, its not the root cause by a long way.......the root cause is ,and this has been discussed (albeit briefly)on here before....wait for it ..GREED, and where does greed start ? not from the bottom -but from the top...the very top.....the highest in the land no less.....not just recently-its always been like that.....now ill grant you this liberalism hasnt worked well,prob never will...its bad points sometimes overwhelm its good points...but...liberalism is an ideal, a vision if you like ..a utopian society, where things like the constitution CAN really mean something, instead of just being paid lip service too...where caring about your fellow men DOES matter....where exploitation is eradicated....the list goes on...now im not saying that that high goal can or ever will be reached..but to get half way would be some achievement.....the alternative is what we see today..dog eat dog...whole generations of youngsters left to rot on the slagheap of industrial decay....with the resultant wasted lives because of that...the same old b.s propaganda that leaves the administration always looking for an enemy,always wanting to fight someone, all in the name of what boilds down to greed....now the road that leads and has led us this far is twisting and turning,sometimes its perimeters are unclear,sometimes they disappear into the mist,other times deliberately obscured by sly scumbag politicians and 21st century dr strangeloves..the populace blindly follows,cos it cant think for itself, politicians know this, it happens generation after generation, young guys led to war ,while the people who pushed them there feed pon those young lives and facing no risk....this happens worldwide on a greater or lesser scale ,but the overiding reason is greed and nowhere in the world is greed greater than in america...greed for status, greed for cash,,greed for property grab ,grab ,grab ..and the devil takre the hindmost....
oh well strayed a bit here,but as its written.... :lol:
Don update your email address

TC ASKEY
Part Timer
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:24 am
Location: STRAWBERRY,ARIZONA

Propaganda

Postby TC ASKEY » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:41 pm

Don, Sorry for the slow response but I only have the computer on a couple times each day. I regret that you took offense to the word Wetback. I thought you would understand the term having lived in California for many years. Your most recent post also leads me to believe that you may have lived in Massachusetts or New York for some time also.I also apologise for my ability as a typist. It is a slow task for me since recently I have been using my middle finger only. I hope you will understand. Love, Terry

zentull
Expert
Posts: 1037
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Postby zentull » Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:52 pm

I can understand why some people misunderstand our country. The unity of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland with England is beyond comprehension. The Scots would rather run themselves and Northern Ireland is simply a mess. The Welsh? Who knows what those mysterious buggers are up to.

The Scot in me says "Go to Hell", The English in me asks why we cannot get along and the Irish in me says a drink would cure all.

Of course thats good Scotch Whisky..............no "e" in my drink please.

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Propaganda?

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:26 pm

Don,

This is your topic, which you called "Propaganda"?

I don't know how I could be more even handed here. I have not touched anyone's post.

The subject is confrontational in nature, and the nasty personal attacks began with you.......I think. :?

Who do you think I should "moderate"? You might expect you would get these kinds of responses, as this is primarily an American dominated site.

If you don't like the tone of these responses, I would suggest you try one of the sites that have shown people getting their heads sawed off.
They have exactly the same opinion of Americans and America as you.

They would also agree that it would be a great idea if the American public were totally disarmed. :roll:

Take care,

Joe

Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5404
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Nemerov's Sources

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:39 pm

Don,

These are Mr. Nemerov's sources, and a short bit at the end on who he is.

Just because you don't believe what he has written, does not make him a liar, nor his sources for that matter.

No name calling, just facts.

Joe

Footnotes

(1) Gun Laws Work, Loopholes Don’t, The Brady Campaign to Prevent Violence
http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issues/?page=loop
Numerous references at this site relating gun control to reducing violence.

(2) Information Page on Firearms Violence, Violence Policy Center.
http://www.vpc.org/fvtopic.htm
Numerous articles relating gun control to reducing violence.

(3) Crime Victimisation in the Industrialised World: Key Findings of the 1989 and 1992 International Crime Surveys, van Dijk and Mayhew, The Hague: Ministry of Justice, Department of Crime Prevention, 1993.
Criminal Victimisation in Seventeen Industrialised Countries: Key-findings from the 2000 international Crime Victims Survey, Van Kesteren, Mayhew and Nieuwbeerta, The Hague: Ministry of Justice, Department of Crime Prevention, 2000. Both available at http://www.unicri.it/icvs/publications/index_pub.htm

(4) Firearms Commerce in the United States 2001/2002. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms.
http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/f ... mmerce.pdf



(5) International Comparisons of Criminal Justice Statistics 2001. Britain Home Office and Council of Europe, 10/23/2003. http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb1203.pdf

(6) Ibid, page 10.

(7) Ibid, page 12.

(8) Ibid, page 13.

(9) Crime in England and Wales 2002/2003. British Home Office, July 2003.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/hosb703.pdf

(10) Ibid, page 53.

(11) Ibid, page 56.

(12) Ibid, page 58.

(13) ''Guns and Violence, The English Experience,'' Joyce Lee Malcolm, Harvard University Press, 2002, pp 62-63.

(14) ''Gun Control’s Twisted Outcome,'' Joyce Lee Malcolm, Reason Online, November 2002. http://reason.com/0211/fe.jm.gun.shtml

Howard Nemerov is a Bay Area freelance writer who receives e-mail at: hnemerov@netvista.net




About the Writer: Howard Nemerov began doing his own research into gun control when he recognized that the media was full of distortions and half truths. He publishes with ChronWatch and other sites, and is a frequent guest on NRA News. He is currently working on his first book, "Gun Control: Fear or Fact," which deconstructs and explains the gun control agenda and its arguments, debunking each one with a statistic-rich analysis. This is the handbook for when you want to talk to others about gun control . Howard receives e-mail at HNemerov [at symbol] netvista.net.

User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 505
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Southern California
Contact:

Postby Mike McChesney » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:19 am

OK Don,

I AM saying that the numbers of handicapped and mentally impaired is miniscule. I'm not saying that all homeless poeple are crackheads ands alcoholics, but a HUGE majority of them are there by virtue of their own poor choices in life.

Those few that are destitute and homeless due to permanent mental deficiency or permanent medical issues, should be taken care of forever by the government.

For the 98% of all the other destitute and homeless people out there, I believe they are all entitled to some government assistance, to help them through their hard times, but there HAS to be limits. They should also be forced to take drug tests and get free counseling before their check is released. If they fail a drug test or don't show up for counseling, they shouldn't get a check. I believe they should be made to work for the state or city in some fashion for at least a few hours a day. If their name isn't on the sign in sheet, they don't get a check.

I think you are absolutely correct that Liberalism is an IDEAL. But then again, so is Communism! Communism would be the ideal way of life. Only problem is, this is not an ideal world. This world world is full of UN-IDEAL people. Some people work harder than others, and how are you going to explain to them that they get the same pay as somebody who works half as hard? Or even worse, how do you tell that person that you are taking half of what they have made, and giving it to someone who doesn't work at all? The biggest problem with Liberalism and Communism both is that they don't engender any motive to do better. Many Indian Tribes had an ideal society. They got along with Mother Nature and all that stuff, but their development was stunted. They didn't even have the wheel, until the Spanish came along in the 1500s. Now, you could make an argument that their life was a better one, but I doubt you would want to spend most of your week hunting and gathering!

Two types of competition drive development:
1. War. War has been the cause of most of the major inovations in the history of the world. The microwave oven you are heating up your "black pudding" in was invented from the first radar. That's why it was called the Amana RadarRange!

2. Industrial: Big Industry drives devlopment of new products and ideas.

Yes, greed is big here in the US. But greed is good (to an extent). See competition #2. If it weren't for the greed of industry, the world wouldn't have aviation, automobiles, refrigerators, air conditioners, you name it. You have everything you do today because somebody thought they could make money from selling those things. If somebody hadn't thought that they could make money from selling pants, you would be walking around in the altogether right now! Your dingle just a dangling! :D :D :D So, don't knock greed! If it wasn't for somebody's greed, you could only work as far from home as you could walk or ride a horse.

Mike

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:45 am

well mike, i cant disagree with what you posted,indeed most of what you said accepts the validity of my remarks....nothing wrong in pursuing an ideal is there?but ok lets say theres profit ,a reasonable and justifiable profit which any company needs to make to survive , invest and pay its employees and directors and enables its owners to live in style .....then theres greed,i.e having enough,more than enough and still wanting more...then theres extreme greed....now theres an offshoot to this, it doesnt exist only in isolation,everybodys involved...higher prices for consumer, lower wages(both in real terms and proportionally)....power through wealth for unelected individuals,access to goverbnment officials ,sleaze and corruption......and if you include the arms industry,which has the ear of the president ,an oppurtunity to increase sales (and of course revenue) by either encouraging foreign interventions or exaggerating dangers. greed has long tentacles,not all bad, but many are and when governments and commercial interests become virtually indistinguishable from each other as they have....then the trouble starts.
thanks
tc askey i sincerely hope your middle finger recovers in time for the recession...no doubt it will be needed......wetbacks im familiar with , same as im familiar with dum-dums,spassers, and mongs used for describing handicapped people....also familiar with the words nigga, jungle bunny ,coon and spear chucker as refferring to negroes, all of them i find disgusting and sad......if that offends you.....tough shit
new york?hmm i can guess where that came from...mutual friend? :lol:
yes new york also rhode island for while, but i doubrt your middle finger could reach there
missing you allready xxxx
Don update your email address

don
Part Timer
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Sep 26, 2002 12:17 pm
Location: united kingdom

Postby don » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:25 am

ok joe 2 issues here ...re :moderation......moderating doesnt just mean deleting posts ,i never said you tampered with mine...ni my beef was you criticised my reply to your mate,i called him"vile names"cos i had no argument and that according to you proves beyond question i have no basis (in fact) for my statements....my "sin" was to utter the word asshole..is VILE maybe an over the top description? but conveniently you failed miserabley in criticising your matesremarks to me didnt you? his mental handicap jibe to me ,insulting both me and making light of any poor soul who suffers from that affliction....is that vile? he encourages every liberal minded person to quit the country-is that vile? he obviously wants" 12 million "wetbacks thrown out the country..is that vile? of course its long been the case on here (not that im suggesting youve always been involved) that its not what you say-but who says it.
ok your gun control problem.....you post a thesis on gun trol /crime related issues....you then add few links.....ive glanced cursorily through the paper ok but what you are missing is this. whatever this guys conclusions are, whatever his qualifications are the end product is only an opinion isnt it? crime recording in both countries is not (even if correct , which they rarely are) isnt the be all and end all of it.......we have crimes here that wouldnt be crimes there for example..but besides that statistics can be used to prove almost whatever you wish......i could produce on here a few thesis by distinguished people using similatr srtatistics who would come to very diff conclusions and therefore would be equally invalid,....however why not try using commonsense? lets use 1 example (not in isolation) but as example only....columbine.....ok lets ask how a couple of schoolkids go guncrazy, where did their obsession begin? did the fact that firearms are an everyday facet of life play a part? the fact that celebrities champion gun ownership...advertisements etc...now these kids growing up are vulnerable to gun culture ,they father owns a gun ,maybe mother, these things get through to children on a subliminal level long before things become aopparent. ok ask how these kids ammassed such a formidable arsenal? was it cos guns are freely available(registering for gun license etc notwithstanding cos its just a veneer of safe practice anyway)was iyt cos their parents were a bit careless at times which allowed kids to take them? was it because wherever guns are in a private home theres always chance of them being stolen? ..and used?does any of this play a part? if not why not? so ok well say well u know therell always be some nutcase and you cant safeguard every eventuality...thats true..but why place temptation in front of these peiople
ok guns are for personal priotection against theives, muggers, assailants ok? fine..isnt there police force to deal with that? not always there on time you bet ,but the alternative is vigilantism and local militias...the rule of law must be paramount,everything else leads to anarchy, and anarchy is in fact the order of the day in some downtown areas isnt it?
ok gun crime, any figures for how many people (non criminals if theres such a thing) shot in domestic disputes? petty trivial issues, arguments heated by alcohol, bad day at work etc?..needless and ridicolous incidents which end in someones death? all deaths that could be avoided........
now you talk as though its only me don who thinks this way,oh well lets gang up its only don hes a nutcase anyway,limey bastard etc etc.....but in this issue YOUR head is in the sand, theres a whole army (excuse the pun) out there who loathe guns ,see no need for them, would feel safer (yes safer without rather than safer with) and that number isnt composed entirely of liberals it stretches acrooss the community....for you to advocate gun ownership after americas experoience is pure dangerous folly......and i was under impression the dinosaurs died out millions of years ago :lol:
regards
Don update your email address