The Black Legion and The LDM

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Joe Ribaudo
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The Black Legion and The LDM

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:40 am

Few people know of the connection between the Black Legion and the Lost Dutchman Mine. Artifacts found in the Malapais Mountain region attest to their presence. Apache baskets, pottery and a ceremonial lance have all been found in remote locations.

Although some "white eyes" believe they have been allowed into the trust of the members of the Black Legion, it has always been a sentence of death to a member who reveals any of the secrets of the group, as well as the person receiving the information. The Black Legion is more than capable of enforcing that sentence, and has.

The Black Legion was the reason that Ed Piper had to leave the Superstitions once every year. The reason that he had to leave, was because the Apache were moving gold to a special location.

Someone who claims to know, confided to me in a long conversation, using AOL IM, that he knew that they did exist. I printed out the entire conversation, and there can be no doubt to anyone who knows him, as to his identity.

Not every Apache held to the belief that gold, in and of itself was to be avoided. Some, very famous, had their own gold mines.

I believe that Jan has some knowledge of what I am talking about.

Misdirection is the name of the game here.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

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Postby zentull » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:54 am

Sorry Joe, This is the one topic I really can't believe in. I have posted before about the only Indians I have seen in the Superstitions were of the lost variety. If I do see some guys dressed in black hats carrying around gold, I will let you know. Of course I could also be a co conspirator trying to mislead you all. I hope you follow it up and defend your position, because I dont know jack about the "Black Legion". Again, I may be just saying this to seek out what information you know. Their eyes and ears are everywhere. Or not.

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Perhaps You Are Right

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:15 am

Zentull,

Thank you for your replies.

As far as the Black Legion, having seen them, I know they exist.

Only one person on this site, that I know of, knows the truth of the matter. It is unlikely Peter will post on the subject, again. He might come on as "I Love Joe Ribaudo" but I assume he will not say anything of substance in that identity.

Most people, like you, believe it is just another story. They like it that way. 8O

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

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Postby zentull » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:10 am

Joe, I am not sure if your posting anywhere at this given time, but after searching the archives and doing a search on Black Legion, I get just vague references to the subject but nothing substantial. I was hoping you would follow up with something more or at least point me in the right direction. Whether I file it next to the stone giants and pygmies or not, a good story is a good story. Sounds intriguing.

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The Name Of The Game

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:40 am

Zentull,

As you know, Peter is the resident expert on the Apache. If I were to point you in a direction to receive more information on the Black Legion, it would be towards Peter. I fear you would spend a lot of time going in a circle, like a dog chasing it's tail, were you to question Peter on this subject.

The others who might be able to shed some light on the subject are:

Aurum, LDM, Azmula and Jan. Jan will not post on this forum, but you might ask on another. Murphy might also be someone who can shed some light on the subject.

Good luck!

I have pretty much told all I know about the Black Legion. The rest, as I said, is "misdirection".

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

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Postby zentull » Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:10 am

Thanks, I searched the internet and the only thing I came up with involved the Klu Klux Klan and some games. The season begins to unwind and I need food for thought when alls quiet.

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The Boys In Black

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:47 pm

TGH/Peter/Zentull,

A lot of effort has been invested in trying to make people believe the Black Legion does not exist. Having seen two of these boys myself, and hearing Ernie Provence's story of running into them, I know they are real.

Ernie described them exactly the same as the two who followed us out of the Superstitions. No doubt they were just a couple of wild and crazy guys, kidding around. :roll:

Then again, there are always the words of Peter - in fact, those he just wrote in the asylum. :lol:

Joe

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IS?

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Thu Sep 01, 2005 8:52 pm

For those who are reading this thread over in the asylum, here is a short translation of what Peter said: "It all depends on what the meaning of is,
is". :roll:

This is on a par with what the government has said concerning
"unmarked black helicopters". That is: "There are no unmarked black helicopters. However, there are some very, very dark green helicopters flying." :wink:

There is no Black Legion. However, there may be some benevolent Apache Shamans running around, who have been mislabeled. Much like Catholic Clergy, they tend to dress in black and like the Nuns, they travel in pairs. :lol:

Joe Ribaudo

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Postby zentull » Fri Sep 02, 2005 11:55 am

The fact that no one seems to believe in it, but will not give any specifics they know is odd. I am the first one up to play a joke, but dressing up in black and running around seems a bit uncomfortable. Even if it is folklore, you would think everyone would have their story to tell. Instead everyone has a lack of imagination on the subject. My dealings with most Apaches leaves me with a few thoughts. The women ( like so many cultures) are the workers and take no crap from the men. They generally hate other Native Americans. They appear to hate the Navajos more than could be imagined ( Though from what I have read they are possibly related ). They like heavy metal music. They generally like jewelry and concert t-shirts. They can be very tempermental drunks when aroused. They are very good friends and are very loyal to no end. They can be very superstitous.

However, while I have been accompanied by a number of Native Americans in the Superstitions, to date not one was an Apache. To quote one such friend " Sounds like hard work and you know how I feel about that ". None of the others were interested in a return trip. They all disliked the area and felt it was a bummer trip. Wish I would of asked about the Black Legion one of those drunk nights while shooting pool. I am sure they have a story or two concerning it.

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Playing In Black

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Sep 07, 2005 2:21 pm

Zentull,

I can assure you that the "Black Legion" by whatever name they go by, is not "folklore". You know that is true.

You have your own reasons for not saying what you know about the group. Is it possible that your silence is part of the taking of innocent lives by the "Black Legion". If so, is it possible to wash your hands and pretend you are not part of the act?

I am sure that you suspect that the stories I have told, are true. Because you don't personally know of any killings, you can convince yourself that the group is not really a threat.

There have been a lot of unexplained, unsolved murders in the Superstitions. You will continue to deny the existence of the "Black Legion", by playing a name game. I will continue to warn the innocent of their existence.

The Apache and the Navajo were once a single people.

Joe Ribaudo

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Postby zentull » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:10 am

Damn that was a good reply. Confused me more than a little. Anyhow I thought we could get some nice stories or input from everyone, but as with most subjects I get a blank. I think if I tied the stone maps into everything I post it would get a better response. As much interference you get when you post, at least its a response. Sometimes I wonder if theres a heartbeat out there when I post. Instead I get a weak pulse if anything.

Cest La Vie.

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Stories

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:46 pm

Zentull,

I can see where you would be confused, if you are not Peter. He is just about the only one who knows what I am talking about here. There are a few others, but they shall remain anonymous.

I have told all the stories I know about the Black Legion. That amounts to two. One was a personal experience and the other happened to an old friend. We have asked others to speak out, without response.

Their existence has been confirmed, by Peter and others, outside of the forum. While I did not need the confirmation, it's nice to know I did not dream up the experience. :lol:

I have said before, that I doubted that they called themselves the Black Legion. I don't even know if they have a name for the group, but it seems likely. Want to tell us what it is? :wink:

Joe Ribaudo

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Postby zentull » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:31 am

The only thing I heard of similar really was a group who were watching over a/several burial sites. But I think I am trying to stretch things there. Probably unrelated stories. I do not remember the name if any of this group. Could be one and the same and the tale stretches to fit the audience or storyteller. Black Legion is still very anglo sounding, Why anyone would guard over a burial site I have no idea. I ran into one in the Rim area. That was enough for me. This is one subject that seems to be heading for the elephants graveyard.

The fact there are well over 400 views and only 16 posts in the 2 forums says something. Whether that is ignorance, interest or they are watching us I dont know.

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Black legion

Postby late49er » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:41 am

Redison, Joe

Normally wouldn`t post on this type of issue. But yep these folks are out there. Never really bothered me and my friends. Perhaps it was simply professional courtesy.

Respect them for their concerns, believe they can go a bit overboard.
Those folks have been treated pretty badly.

Really the folks I am mostly concerned about are the forest service. They have been on my trail more than once. Sometimes I think they are taking more gold out of the Superstitutions than anyone. I am serious about this.


Regards,


Late49er

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Black Legion

Postby lazarus » Sun Oct 02, 2005 1:42 pm

Guys,
I cannot even calculate the number of hours I have spent in the wilderness, yet I have never seen any sign of the Black Legion. I have never seen any weird lights, and I don't even carry a gun. If they are out there, they are avoiding me.

Knowing how protective I can be of the wilderness, I suspect I am probably as close to being the Black Legion as any other manifestation you may encounter out there. I even own a black hat.

As for the Green shirts...
they are the most worthless, do nothing, condescending, shit for brains to ever collect a paycheck. I have never ever ever ever seen a greenshirt in the wilderness.

Obviously, I have no respect for those guys. Respect cannot be delegated, it must be earned. If I were to fall off a cliff out there and need help, I certainly couldn't count on them for any help. If the green shirts have a bad reputation, it's because they deserve it. They have failed to serve the interests of the wilderness and it's visitors.

Shame on me for saying so, but that's how I feel.

Laz

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the black legion

Postby late49er » Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:24 pm

Lazarus,

Believe the black legion, very colorful name, is active only during certain times of the year. Sorta like bees.

They have certain economic requirements and well gold is gold. Pretty peaceful these days. Seems folks have just settled in.

Sometimes the Superstitons is like New York. Everyone has there terrritory and as long as you don`t mess with your neighbor`s stash you will be ok. The greatest danger is the crazy folks looking for stuff.

At the end of the day even they can`t keep everything straight out there. When you cover up a lot of mines sometimes it is difficult to remember what you did and when. Certain amount of humour in all of this.

Oh I guess the forest service guys are doing what anyone would do. I am sure they do a lot of good and what the hey let them have their cut.


Regards,


Late49er

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Re: The Black Legion and The LDM

Postby walker12 » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:05 am

[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]

The Black Legion was the reason that Ed Piper had to leave the Superstitions once every year. The reason that he had to leave, was because the Apache were moving gold to a special location.
[/quote]

Joe, your quote above does beg the question - Was Piper looking for the gold of the Black Legion? If so he only needed to sit off at a great high distance and watch where the Legion got the gold and/or where they took it. Or, he could have backtracked the trail after the fact.

Conversely if Piper was warned off THAT gold, this begs the questions - what gold was he looking for? and why would the Legion let him look for that gold especially if as you noted in another post (http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... .php?t=647) he was starting in a good location? The "fact" that he had to move also implies that he must have been close to the Legion's gold source otherwise their gold convoy could have used a different route.

No flamewar intended I just don't follow the logic of Piper can't look for some gold one time per year/can look for other gold with impungity the rest of the year in the same place.

FWIW I have tons of trail time. I have seen people of all colored shirts, and of all levels of aggression. I have had people follow me and have followed other people's footsteps. However I have never experienced anything even slightly resembling this conspiracy.

Bottom line for me is that it is neigh on impossible to prove a negative (i.e the Legion doesn't exist). However if there are logical flaws in the tale and personal experience says otherwise my baloney meter remains at high alert.

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the Black Legion

Postby LDM » Mon Oct 03, 2005 12:11 pm

The Black Legion subject always generates a certain amount of interest and controvercy with Forum members. Before one can begin to answer weather or not a Black Legion exists one first has to define what the Black Legion is. If I imagine an absurd group of native Americans lugging tons of gold all over the Superstitions at all times of the year, night and day, in secret and undercover, ready to kill at the drop of a hat, it's a pretty fair bet my image of what the Black legion is doesn't exist.

The same applies with any of you. If your imagination is way out in left field, the chance of you being out there with it is pretty good.

I find it difficult to say what something is or isn't, or does or does not do, or can or cannot do, based on something that no one seems able to reliably define. I never saw a mountain lion in the Superstitions, until the first time I saw one. I never felt the need to try to convince anyone there were no mountain lion in the Superstitions before that first time.

Can anyone reliably define the "Black Legion" for me ? Is the Ed Piper story the Black Legion story ?

Or is the 1988 Wendsler Nosie Sr. story on Dzil Nchaa Si An the story ?

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Are They Real?

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Oct 03, 2005 3:18 pm

LDM, Walker, Late and Laz,

I don't need a bullshit meter for this one. I have seen them. I have talked to someone who had a direct encounter with them. That face to face meeting involved threats of death. It was more than believable, as told to me.

Since then, I have been told by people who should know, that they exist.
I did not ask for the confirmation, as I already knew. They offered the information on their own.

The tale I told you about Ed Piper is well known, and was confirmed by someone who said they worked for him. He also indicated the area that Piper was hiding in. I have no doubt the story is true, especially considering where Ed was hiding.

The Apache are the only ones who know where the LDM is located. That information has been handed down over the years. I doubt there is any gold left in the Waltz mine/cache. It may very well be inside Weaver's Needle.

There are many books and maps that indicate something important in Black Top Mesa. Many Dutch Hunters, that make me look like the idiot some have called me, believed there was treasure to be found there. It is not a point I would ever argue.

LDM,

"Can anyone reliably define the "Black Legion" for me ?"

I would guess that you are one of the few people who does not need someone to do that for you, but I will.

The Black Legion is a group of Native Americans, most likely Apache but not beyond a doubt. They are know by a few as The Black Legion, but most likely have no name for themselves.
They have threatened people with "death" if they did not stay "out of the mountains". They often show themselves (implied threat) but do not make direct contact.
The purpose of this group is unknown, but only those who have worked around Black Top Mountain, that I have personal knowledge of, have actually seen them.
They dress "all in black". All that have been seen, are above average in size.
While their work in the mountains may be benign, their contact with others who are around Black Top is not.
A few who have claimed they do not exist, know that they do. I would assume that would include you, although you would not call a spade a spade here. By any other name, they are still "The Black Legion".

Best I can do, and those who know of the group will not define them in any manner, publicly.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby walker12 » Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:41 pm

Joe just because you saw some guys in black that doesn't prove the existence of a Legion. Nor does it disprove it. It only proves their fashion choice that day.

Same for a person telling you they were threatened by some guys in black. By definition they couldn't have said they are part of a secret society. Thus, all they could do is warn people away. Surely trying to scare people away from a hunting, camping or mining site is not news in Arizona nor the rest of the nation for that matter.

Just based on statistics there will always be some hikers, camper, hunters, nuts of all sorts out there in black and other colors. And just because Piper was threatened or moved for a period doesn't necessarily mean the men in black were the cause let alone that it realted to already found gold/treasure.

Again I am just having trouble believing that a few observations means there is only one explanation - a secret society moving gold around.

Also, to my previous questions let me add this one - Why would a secret society advertise that fact by dressing alike? That would seem to only attract attention . Granted that may scare off many but when gold is involved that would bring NUMEROUS others out of the woodwork.

Again, others can believe if they want but at best this sounds like a cheesy movie plot to me.

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Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:07 pm

Walker,

I guess I will have to go with my experience in this matter, rather than with your "cheesy" feeling. :lol:

"...just because you saw some guys in black..."

That's an interesting way to describe what happened, and what we saw. If that was all there was to it, I would be a real fool. At the time, I had never heard the term, Black Legion. It was years later that I was able to put a name with the event.

This is a topic for which you seem to have a great deal to say. It's been awhile since you have posted about anything. What is there about this topic which has peaked your interest? Are you an Apache?

Thanks for your comments. I hope you will stay involved.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

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Black legion

Postby bill711 » Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:21 pm

Late and Lazerus; I think you 2 are right on about the green shirt,s and the lack boy,s. I think maybe Joe got too close to a burial party/ground. Of course the indi,s like a gooood jokr as well as anyone, it,s good for a laugh back home. bill 8)

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Laughing Their Heads Off

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Oct 03, 2005 10:40 pm

Bill,

You could be right. There are, historically, a number of white eyes who literally laughed their heads off in the Superstitions. 8O

Headless prospectors! Wait....."...this sounds like a cheesy movie plot to me." :roll:

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

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Black legion

Postby bill711 » Mon Oct 03, 2005 11:48 pm

Joe; I guess I don,t scare easy. When someone trys to scare me I get real mad! Bill 8)

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The Black Legion

Postby late49er » Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:21 am

Hi Joe,

Seems like you folks are having some exciting times down there.

As far as the Black Legion goes perhaps folks are getting too hung up on names.

Let`s just say they are some savvy businessmen looking after their financial and spiritual interests in the Superstitions. Every now and then they make a withdrawal from their bank and obviously are not interested in folks getting involved.

Don`t think there is anything absurd about those folks.

What happens when you get the Black legion and the forest service together? The IRS.


Regards,


Late49er