The Black Legion and The LDM

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Joe Ribaudo
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Das Bank

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:39 pm

Late,

What happens when a stranger leans on the bank doors?

Respectfully,

Joe

late49er
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Bank Doors/theblacklegion/ and whatever

Postby late49er » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:22 am

Joe,

It is good to see you get you sense of humour back. The bunch you quarrel with down there is not worth the trouble. You folks do tend to work on each other a bit. I really wouldn`t care what is thought.

Guess the real issue is not getting in, the issue is getting out.

The problem is figuring out who`s stash you are getting into. Some folks react pretty badly, obviously if you hit upon a Peralta storage area you would be safe.

Of course there are crazies wandering around there and you would need to be prepared to share if you were spotted. Speaking of owl sounds. Good way to keep track of folks.

Just curious why you believe the Apache`s know where the LDM is? Let`s say they have or have had access to a number of Peralta Mines how would they know which one was the Jake`s? If Jake was on to a number of mines, he might even be confused by the notion of which one was
the real LDM.

I have always considered the Deering model to be the LDM, but not necessarily what Jake believed to be his mine. Believe he would find the question a little silly.


Regards,


Late49er

zentull
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Postby zentull » Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:22 pm

Everything I have heard said that the Apaches covered most of the mines, with the exception of one that was difficult to find and/or in a area that would be hard to work. Magill possibly uncovered a Peralta mine, as have others. Tex Barkley I believe was aware of several spots that had been covered. The LDM would be filled partially from erosion over time, but would not resemble the other mines as the appear now.

What Apaches survived that particular era and was able to transmit the info several generations later? It could be a successful family as much as any group from the mid 1800s. This group could have assimilated itself in the early 1900s and would be less suspect being distanced from legends and Native American culture.

late49er
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The LDM

Postby late49er » Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:07 am

Zentull,

I tend to agree with you that there is ample evidence the Apache`s covered up Peralta Mines. There is also a body of evidence that they did not cover all of them up and that the Peralta`s built back doors into several of the vein systems they worked.

Whether or not the Apache`s covered up the Peralta Mine that become known as the LDM is I believe an open question. Some reports indicate the mine was covered and others indicate it was not. Believe if you read Ely he indicates the mine may have been covered.

I believe the Apache`s did not cover the LDM not because of the reasons given in the traditional accounts but because they were booted off the site. Once enough of them were sent to the other side and enough of the mountain was rearranged by high explosives they lost all interest in the area. And from their perspective they had enough mines to access if they wanted anyway. A little dynamite and in the current century HMX can change a lot of attitudes and memory.

But then again without a first hand account of Peralta Mining Operations in the Superstitions all of this is pure speculation. Perhaps one will show up soon.

Do believe if the Jake was alive today and someone asked him about his mine, and he was inclined to answer, he would simply smile and look puzzled and answer which one?



Regards,


Late49er

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Re: the Black Legion

Postby LDM » Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:14 am

Deleted.

bill711
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Black legion

Postby bill711 » Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:46 am

LDM that was a real sweet answer, wasn,t it? YOU sure have the paitience; Don,t you? bill 8)

Joe Ribaudo
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Deleating History

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:01 am

I notice Aurum has now gone back and deleated all of his posts. I am tempted to put them all into another site, just to preserve the history of some unbelievable knowledge. For many of us, I believe, it is close to sacrilege.

"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it"

Omar Khayyam

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aurum,

It would be interesting to know the thought process that brought you to this low point in your life. You are striking out against the wind. It will flow around you, and carry your words beyond your ability to erase them. They will be kept in safe places, like treasure.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

When this Forum was first created, it was a blank sheet of paper, and yet it was a "place". It was a place waiting to be filled with knowledge, and some amount of "wisdom". When you came to this "place", you became a part of it's history. No amount of deleations will destroy that history.

You cannot leave it and it will not leave you. Each time I visit or think of the "place", Aurum and his history are there.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would turn this whole thing around, if I knew how.....I don't.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

bill711
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the black legion and the ldm

Postby bill711 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:50 am

JOE; These people are just showing who they are! Let them delete; they will be missed BUT the forum,s will go on without them. They are now tongue- tied, and they did it to themselves!!! :lol: bill 8)

Joe Ribaudo
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Aurum/LDM

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:19 am

Bill,

It's interesting to see the results of how different members have viewed my posts. Some have no idea why they have created such turmoil, others, like Aurum/LDM, are driven to acts of childish retribution and anger.

I can understand the reactions of people like Wyatt, but have no idea why
someone of Aurum/LDMs intelligence and demeanor would resort to such an act. He was always treated with respect.

Take care,

Joe
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bill711
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Black legion and the ldm

Postby bill711 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:35 pm

Joe; It just goes to show that if you look hard enough and use your imagination alittle you can find something wrong somewhere. You would think that they would be more adult than that. HEY let them go I think the rest of us and a few new people can carry on. I am glad Jan is back. I also think someone is campaining against us in the back ground too! They can go over and study the reptoinds and such... :lol: bill 8)

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Postby TC ASKEY » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:32 pm

Bill,



I have to disagree with you. AURUM and LDM have shared a great deal of their knowledge with the members of this forum which most of us will not do. They will be sadly missed.

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Respect

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:43 pm

Terry,

Bill did not say LDM would not be "sadly missed", but he did call a spade a spade. There are a number of people on this site who have the same bad habit. Two that come to mind are you and I.

LDM/Aurum has always been treated with the utmost respect and deference by every sane member of this Forum.

When LDM deleated all of his posts, you might reason that he did it in a fit of anger. When he came back and deleated the posts he had done as Aurum, the anger should have been gone. A good deal of deliberation went into that act.

LDM disrespected every person who ever exchanged ideas with him by deleating those posts. He had every right to do that, but we have every right to castigate him for the act. He is not a petulant child, he is a man. He is of high intelligence, probably the most intelligent member of this Forum.

His reasoning for leaving the Forum was understandable, feeling as he did. His explanation made perfect sense if he percievced it to be true, and I believe he did. That act would punish every member of the Forum.
That was not enough punishment, so he taught us all a lesson by deleating his posts. Not feeling that he had received the proper response to his tantrum, he came back and deleated the posts he had made as Aurum. I expect he will burn our houses next.

I will miss LDM, probably as much or more than anyone here, but he is gone. He was gone before his formal departure or his deleations. He once said:

"Joe is, as always, correct in his statement that the true beating is directed toward the foundation of statements and not intended to beat down the author personally." It would seem he has changed his mind.

In the event that LDM is ill, nothing I have said holds a single drop of water. In any case, I wish him good health and God speed on whatever trail he is walking.

LDM,

I am confused by what you have done, but this I am sure of:

"Yoosn bi'ihi'daahi binaadidzool beehe'ndzili yeedaa-
doldi tsiyaago daadoldi' nika'zhe'."

While I can't speak the words, I do understand their meaning.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

bill711
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Black legion and the ldm

Postby bill711 » Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:23 pm

TC; I did not say that they would not be missed BUT I did say that if they feel the way that they did then it,s for the best that they go! I look people straight in the eye and talk straight with them. I do not look down on people nor look UP to anyone BUT GOD above. I will garuantee you the fellows took away as much if not more info than they put in... Bill 8)

Joe Ribaudo
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As It Should Be

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:55 pm

Bill,

There is something to be said for your outlook here. No one needs to read between the lines with you. Telling people what you think of them and their behavior, is "out of style". Don't want to hurt anyones feelings.

There are some who will stand and speak the truth, and there are some who will run and hide from it. You are never hard to find.

Respectfully,

Joe

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Black legion

Postby bill711 » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:24 pm

Joe; NO body did a flippen thing to hurt arum,s and the Tom,s feeling YET they managed to find something to get snootted up over and take their toys home so no one else can play with them! YET after this exibition of their disdain for us they expect us to go right out and PAY OUR MONEY for their BOOKS?? I don,t think that I would want to buy! Joe I did not intend to hurt anyone,s feeling BUT I do not appriate their slap in the face either and that is what this deleting is all about! Joe with all their knowledge have they showed any of us any GOLD? I have not seen any. SO just how much help will you get from their knowledge? :lol: bill P.S. I bet that they still read everything on here. What do you think? :lol: They probley sneak in when they think nobody is looking. What do you think.. :lol:

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Postby LARRY WEBB » Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:56 pm

bill711
Bill I think you've got their number. All the research in the world will do
no good in helping you locate your objective unless you can find a map
that is topo and gps coordinated and I don't think they had it back then.
All the geneology that you can find on anyone that had anything to do with
the Superstitions and Dutchman will not help you find your objective.
When that's all you have is some stories and family history, I guess you
write books. But the real gradification was to come when they found the
objective. I can see the anger can be built up over a lifetime of frustration
of not being able to even get a glimpse of what they have spent a lifetime
to see. It must really hurt to know that they could have had that glimpse
but turned it down not once, but TWICE! Your right about the knowledge,
but I'm not to sure of how intelligent.
LARRY

dutch elm disease
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Postby dutch elm disease » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:55 am

bill,
that was short and sweet bill-i agree with you 100%,and larry webbs correct also....being an "expert" (so called) on the various histories,tales etc will in reality get you nowhere, partly because in my opinion it never existed anyhow, but also cos so many folks have got on the jacob waltz bandwagon since 1892 that the b.s element in the "histories" is prob around the 99% mark. the new (relatively) "discoveries" are in the main theories and what ifs....which soon get assimiliated into the tale and become "facts". oren arnold once said "theres no gold in them thaR hills" and apart from the $2 dollars worth a day that could be scraped up in the mts for a 12 hour shift, i believe arnolds statement was correct.

Joe Ribaudo
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"Not So Fast"

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Fri Nov 18, 2005 8:55 am

Sorry boys,

That's one bandwagon I won't be jumping on.

Research into the history of the people and events that surround the various legends of the Superstition Mountains, is not a waste of time.
Finding the ancestors of Julia Thomas and those who were close to her, could bring forth some important information.

Many a treasure has been found in a dust covered box hidden in a dark celler or attic. Ask Gene Reynolds.

I respect LDM/Aurum and Dr. Glover for the knowledge they went out and earned. They have been willing to share it all and few have done so.

The treasures of the Superstitions will not be found by someone accidentaly stumbling on them. They will be found after countless hours of research and precise searching. Much of that research will come from the work that people like Dr. Glover and LDM have done.

My fight here is with the silence that allowed the Forum to decend into chaos. It is with the deleation of history by some who would want to change it to fit their perception.

To say that this Forum is "better off" without these two giants, is foolish, at best.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dutch elm disease
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Postby dutch elm disease » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:44 am

it isnt a bandwagon....merely an observation...research of its own into anything isnt of itself a waste of time,the waste ,if indeed it is waste,depends on the expectations you have from that research.fun, enjoyment can be derived from looking into any historical subject.but its foolish to think that one is gonna finfd "the richest mine in the world" by researching this particular legend. the only reason its lasted this long is cos of the b.s pumped into it, it is what has made it interesting and caught peoples imagination thro the years. barry storm (the b.s king) is in a large part responsible for that. there is no such thing as a ldm expert,nobodys opinion is worth any more than anyone elses on this subject, the truth is the vast majority both laymen and academics would class us lot as eccentric idiots for making such a big thing out of our own personal boyhood adventure stories. nothing wrong with it ,but sometimes a breath of common sense is needed....in other words enjoy it ...but dont take too seriously thats all.

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Black legion and the ldm

Postby bill711 » Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:10 pm

Joe; All the history and who is kin to who is only good if you are interested in the history of the area or going to write a book about it! NOW there are so many maps that will take you to the area that is all you need BUT you have to suffer and sweat to find the X marks the spot.. it,s there but you will not find it by marching across 6-10 mile of rough terrain and pick your butt and pull your nose for 6-7 hours and then packing up for the rough march home. You are going to have to stay on your search for weeks at a time and ride out to your search area so you won,t be too tired to think clearly.. It,s there but you must REALLY search for it.. 8O bill P.S. Joe the 2 old knot heads are being self destructive and its a self inflicted wound..

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Postby LARRY WEBB » Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:10 pm

DED/bill711
I agree 100%, very nicely put. All the information needed is out there
right now and has been for many years.

LARRY

walker12
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Postby walker12 » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:24 am

[quote="Joe Ribaudo"]Walker,

This is a topic for which you seem to have a great deal to say. It's been awhile since you have posted about anything. What is there about this topic which has peaked your interest? Are you an Apache?

Thanks for your comments. I hope you will stay involved.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo[/quote]

For the record I am a hiker trying to learn some more about the history of the area. Thus, I usually don't have that much to add to the posts. Instead, I am usually reading them to learn about the history of the area.

As to what caught my interest in this series of posts??? Simply that it disagrees with all my experience. Joe since you seem to be as honest as they come it seemed a good time to try and learn some more about the topic by asking/challenging you about it . I am not a native american or black shirt conspiracy member. Instead I am just a curious george type with a natural skepticism about things that don't sound "correct".

As to why the delayed response, I broke my computer and just got it fixed. No black shirts caught up with me, at least not yet :wink:

Joe Ribaudo
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Experience

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:19 pm

Walker,

Glad to see you back in business.

"...it disagrees with all my experience."

I can see where that could easily be the case. There is a huge difference between the things you might experience as a "hiker" in the Superstitions, and an active treasure hunter.
Even as a treasure hunter, running across these folks would depend entirely on your area of interest, I would assume.

Things have changed a great deal for those roaming the Superstitions. The likelihood of someone doing anything to anger the Black Legion seems remote. On the other hand, I would not be inclined to finger any ceremonial lances I might come across....maybe just take a picture and move out of the area. :)

I have said everything I know about the Black Legion, and speculated a bit as well. A number of people who would know the truth of this matter have told me in confidence that they do exist. I can't say who they are, but you would believe them.

Once again, Merry Christmas to all. Carolyn and I are staying home this Christmas as we both are down with the flu. We will miss being with her sister and family in Riverside, but..... :(

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

walker12
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Postby walker12 » Sun Dec 25, 2005 2:54 pm

Yeah, I guess being a hiker passing through there would be no reason for any such group member to approach me. Presumably they would be dressed as any other hiker when doing their surveillance work. Thus, I would have no reason to remember seeing them. Only when they were making a show of force would they have or want to be in some sort of "uniform". I am guessing such events are quite rare. Thus, the odds of me being at that same place during those rare times means I will likely never see them.

Bottom line, I am now no longer a total skeptic.

Joe Ribaudo
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Skeptic

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:23 am

Walker,

Does being a "skeptic" negate the possibility of being "total"? :?

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo