Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Discussions, feedback and suggestions about the Superstition Mountain Journal and its articles.
Gregory E. Davis
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Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby Gregory E. Davis » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:47 pm

Hello: The issue of the 2007 Superstition Mountain Journal is now out and available at the Superstition Mountain Museum. The Journal Committee is already at work starting to put together the 2008 Journal. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby Cubfan64 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:26 am

Hi Greg - thanks for the update.

I've been extremely busy for the last month or so and am having significant problems with the computer that replaced the one that crashed a few months ago. It was an older one and may not be worth getting fixed - I may end up just biting the bullet and buying a new computer in the next few weeks.

Because of all that, I haven't made any extra progress on the journals, but it's still on the top of my "to do" list.

Paul

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby Gregory E. Davis » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:57 pm

Hello gentlemen: Here are a few of the articles which appear in the 2007 Superstition Mountain Journal. 1. History of the Quarter Circle U Ranch-Part 3. 2. The Question of Jacob Waltz's Birthplace. 3. Genealogy: Ancestors of Jacob Friedrich Waltz. 4. Dr. Burkhart Oertel's research on Jacob Waltz in Germany, and many more articles. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby novice » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:05 am

Greg,

That is a great article you put together on the Oertel’s research regarding Jacob Waltz’s possible family! I’m excited and will look forward to Dr. Glover’s follow-up. It looks like we “may” have something substantive on Waltz at last. Several items track pretty closely with what we know from American documents. The name fits, the age fits, the date of immigration fits, the area of his residence in 1844, his residence in California in 1852. It certainly is not absolute proof but each element reduces the likelihood of another Jacob Waltz from Wurttemberg fitting the American profile. I know some items may require a little spinning but not much.

Kudo’s to the Oertels!!!

One observation regarding the signatures. I believe Jacob Waltz would have had to change his script from the German to an English version after reaching America. For example had he continued to use the German Script “W” after reaching America no one could have read his last name. I just feel it was prudent for him to do some Americanizing on the script and spelling of his name.

I wish I could read the German documents! (That will be a real trial) There is certainly a lot to digest. Are the Oertel’s still interested in this research or have they moved on?

Maybe the shotgun was the one Ortega ran afoul of in 1884? Maybe some of our knowledgeable firearms members can identify what a German shotgun from 1839 would look like, what type of shells it would use, etc.

Garry

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby Oroblanco » Sat Mar 13, 2010 2:25 pm

A shotgun from that era would be a muzzle-loader, shells (cartridges) for breechloaders had not been invented. Here is an example, dating to 1850's but basically would be the same design.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=160636430
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby TomDavis » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:28 pm

A teriffic 2007 Journal and article by the Oertel's on Jakob Friedrich Walz. A lot of work went into that research. I have some questions about the Jacob Waltz of Phoenix and the Jakob Friedrich Walz of Oertel's article. I am LDS and sometimes help with lookups for people on their ancestors. One thing of note I came across at the Utah Genealogical Society was this recording. Jacob Waltz, birth 1810 Wuerttemberg Germany, death 25 October 1891 Phoenix, Arizona. Father, Karl Waltz, Mother, Judith Waltz . Further investigating showed there was one Jacob Waltz who died October 25, 1891 in Phoenix. The Ortel's article shows Jakob F. Walz father's name as Andreas. The Jacob Waltz of Phoenix is in the Genealogical Society records at the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter-day Saints Genealogical Society of Utah, 50 East North Temple Salt Lake City, Utah. He is found in PR File-73, Disc #21 PIN #478794. His father and mother are found on that same Disc #21 under PIN #478795 and 478796. Because of the exact date of death and exact city the person died, this person has to be the Jacob Waltz , the dutchman, of Phoenix. This Jacob Waltz recording at the Temple was done by Mrs. Connie Graham, a professional genealogical researcher who has done the Walz, Waltz family in America. Mrs. Graham is of Alexandria Virginia , Washington D.C.

Could these two people be the same individual ? The changing of both the first and last name from Jakob to Jacob and the complete dropping of the middle name Friedrich is hard to understand. A lot of Germans changed their last names when in America but I can't say I have ever seen the changing of a first name by just one letter, K to C, when the result is so slight and insignifigant. Also the dropping of the middle name, initial is not consistant. The signatures are not nearly a match either, a close look shows two seperate styles of the individual letter strokes. A handwriting expert at the Temple in Salt Lake City told me there was a one in ten possibility the same person made those signatures, the Walz signatures on Oertel's documents and the known Waltz signatures from Phoenix.

The last question that comes to me is further on in the SMHS Journal, a Summary of Theories on the early years of Jacob Waltz appears. One of these theories is "The Lost Dutchman Mine " by Sims Ely. In this summary, on page 88 of Sims Elys book, he writes, Waltz was in fact born in Germany, the only son of Karl and Judith Waltz.

This fits with the Genealogic Society of Utah record about the Jacob Waltz who died in Phoenix on 25 October 1891.
I am thinking, did Oertel find the right Waltz, but just confused his father's name somehow ?

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby Cubfan64 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:02 am

Tom,

I haven't read the journal article, but it sounds to me like the only way to begin deciphering the issue is to get ahold of the exact data that both Mrs. Graham and the Oertel's used to state their cases.

Once that's done, at least there's a framework there for trying to sort out the details and see where the disconnect exists.

I wish I was in a position to do such a thing, but I have far too many irons in the pot these days and need to finish some of my own research and complete some commitments.

I honestly don't see any other way to sort out the issue other than to start where I suggested.

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby TomDavis » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:04 am

Cubfan64,

Thanks for your reply. I'm not a researcher, I just do lookups for people on occasions so I don't know how to get beyond the record that exists in the archive. I live in Salt lake but have a residence in Mesa where I work for part of the year. One thing I forgot to post in my original message is the record of the man who died in Phoenix 25 October 1891 is part of Disc #21 Sub search 487624-1013100131933 at the Temple in Salt Lake.

Connie Graham is a professional geneaologist and researches many families and she is the one who did the Walz-Waltz family in America, some 20,000 names are connected with her research on the Walz-Waltz. The Disc #21 I mentioned connects the Walz-Waltz's together with the different branches of that family. The Genealogy Society of Utah has a website with many names online, actually only about 25% of the total are online but that number is still in the millions. The online information just lists the names and dates and related family member(s), it does not list the information of how the persons are connected within the various family groups. That information is on the PR file and disc, and in most cases just the researcher's name appears online. Connie Graham is the researcher who appears on the Walz-Waltz records at the GS of Utah Temple in Salt Lake.

I became involved when I was contacted at the Mesa Temple with a request to do a lookup on Jacob Waltz Phoenix, born 1810, died October 25, 1891 in Phoenix, aka the "dutchman". I hit Connie Graham's entry right away and since the dates and city matched went no further. My work puts me in touch with all the archives and museums in Arizona and Utah and later, when I read the Jacob Waltz article in the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal, the name jumped out at me. I have tried to contact the Oertel's but have not received any reply. I believe the Oertel's may have found the correct person but may have confused a few key points about his origin. It almost seems as if the Oertels had two seperate Jakob Walz they may have confused together as one.

Tom Davis
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Mesa

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby Cubfan64 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:45 am

I'll have to get a copy of that article and read it - I hate to make too many comments on something I haven't actually seen yet.

It sounds to me like a trip to Salt Lake City may be in order for my wife and I one of these days - I've often thought of getting my own family geneology work updated and if I can put alot of it together, it sounds like a few days there would really help pin it together.

Just out of curiosity, is the information you're speaking about available to pretty much anyone with the time and energy to research it? Are there fees involved? Can you just walk in off the street, or do you need an appointment?

There have been several authors who have put together books on the Lost Dutchman mine including alot of history about Jacob Waltz himself - I sorta wonder how much time was actually spent looking through the geneology information in Salt Lake?

It sounds almost so though the two research attempts regarding Waltz started at opposite ends (US vs. Germany) and we're trying now to really connect the two dots. Again, I can't say much about the article itself without reading it, but if you're at all curious, I'd keep trying to contact the Oertels and see what you can find out. Somewhere along the line I thought I had heard they are difficult to reach and this work regarding Waltz and the LDM may very well have been something they were paid to undertake.

Glad you shared what you have - I'll be printing it out for my records and hopefully get a chance to visit Salt Lake City itself and check out the archives there.

Thanks

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby TomDavis » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:57 am

Cubfan64,

To answer your questions, yes, the information I mentioned is available to everyone, the Family History Centers and Temple archives are open to the public, there is no charge and no appointments are necessary. Of course if you want someone to do more than a lookup of one or two ancestors, or ask for an entire family tree, it would be best to hire one of the many researchers. I just do basic lookups for people and am kept pretty busy just with that.

There are LDS Family History Centers in most major cities. Some are a bit limited in their information. The cities with LDS Temples all have the largest archives and are tied in with the Salt Lake records. Find the Temple closest to your home and that would be the place to start.

The LDS Family History website is www.familysearch.org
It has a search records option that is very helpful to people looking for their family but as I mentioned, does not have all the background information found on the Disc's and PR files. It just lists names, dates, country, city, town.... and in most cases, the informant/researcher and a link to their research data.

The Walz-Waltz family is difficult because often the same person is found under both spellings of the last name. This seems to be the case with both Mr. Oertel's findings and the man from Phoenix. The only reason I wanted to contact the Oertel's was to let them know about the Salt Lake archive so they could check it out if they wanted to. If you have contact with them please pass along the information and I'm sure they can take it from there.

Tom Davis
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Mesa

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby novice » Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:22 am

Just a quick note. I have done a lot of genealogy research and the record being cited from Connie Graham on the LDS site is certainly nothing I would take to the bank. These types of references frequently have errors and for me this seems to fall in the category of simply an error and someone being overly zealous. (I would certainly be interested if someone can come up with something more concrete)

There are no additional references cited for Jacob. No birth or christening record, perhaps a confirmation record, etc. The German churches kept pretty good records and if this connection were credible, I would suspect someone could find a birth record in the IGI Index. I did not check all of the books written about the Dutchman but I would not be surprised if the parent’s names show up in one of those publications?

Just my 2 cents.

Garry

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby TomDavis » Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:28 am

novice,

I'm not a geaneology researcher so I can't add much to any records at the LDS Family History Center archives. I just look them up when someone sends a request. I have met a lot of LDS research people but have never met Connie Graham. Mrs. Grahm lives near Washington D.C. I do know she does a lot of research for families and individuals, she has been doing geaneology research for a very long time and she is very respected as a geaneology professional. I guess I don't understand why you would say any entry she has made would be overly zealous and in error. That would not be in keeping with her usual work. I can't defend or deny her research on the Walz-Waltz family because I don't know anything about how to go about what is needed to put something of that scale together. If you could explain a little more why you dismiss her entry so quickly and out of hand it might help with understanding a little better.

The Graham entry on the Walz-Waltz of Phoenix was part of a family tree Subsearch, I believe I gave that search number earlier, and that subsearch ties that Waltz into the Walz-Waltz's geaneology research. It was not an individual or isolated entry. Individual entries are always noted by the name of the person, usually a family member, who submitted the entry along with their name and address.

You mentioned a book written about the dutchman with the parents name mentioned. Yes, there is one and it is mentioned in that same Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal in a following article. The author writes in that article, The Lost Dutchman Mine, by Sims Ely, that Waltz was born in Germany and the only son of Karl and Judith Waltz. This fits with the entry in the LDS Family History Center in Salt Lake. According to the article author, the Sims Ely book was published in 1953, over 50 years ago. This matches the recording in the Salt Lake archives.

Also, I looked on the online website ( I gave the web address in an earlier message) and this Waltz of Phoenix Arizona is entered on the site. Only about 25% of the total names in the archives are online but this particular one is so anyone can use that website to have a look at it. The more specific you are with the search criteria the better, try to use the exact name and date and use a 5 year or less search span and it will weed out a lot of unnecessary entries.

Tom Davis
Salt Lake
Mesa

Gregory E. Davis
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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby Gregory E. Davis » Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:20 pm

Gentlemen and Mr. Tom Davis: Many thanks for your comments on the 2007 Journal and the stories about where Waltz came from in Germany. I tried to present a general over view of the various stories that have appeared in print over the years regarding his origin hoping it would generate a discussion, which it did. Tom, may I suggest that you or someone contact the LDS History Center in Utah to find out what was the source material used to determine Waltz's family members names and place of origin as stated in their files. If it was an original/primary source, that is one thing. If it was of a secondary source, then that is another matter which would warrant futher study. Good thoughtful comments from everyone. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

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Parents of jacob Waltz

Postby novice » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:04 am

Tom,

Thanks for the heads up on the source for Karl and Judith Waltz. I’ll bet you have the source for Connie’s entry for Jacob Waltz.

The Sim’s Ely book “The Lost Dutchman Mine” contains the reference to Karl and Judith being Waltz’s parents. It also contains his death date and that he was born in Germany. I could not find the Wuerttemberg reference in Ely but that information appears in several other books written about Waltz.

The question becomes; Where did Ely get his information in 1953? Since he provides no source and no one “seems” to have found anything in support of Ely’s information, it is unlikely that it stands up to any in-depth scrutiny. It is certainly not a primary source.

I did not intend to disparage Connie when I used the term overly zealous. I see where she has submitted entries for 337 Waltz’s in the Pedigree Resource File and almost all of them appear to have been identified from a primary reference. A great job! As near as I can tell, the entry for our Jacob Waltz and his parents is a stand-alone record with no tie to the other Waltz entries in Connie’s submission?

I can make a genealogy submission to the resource file, or for that matter anyone else can do so also. There are no requirements to provide sources. If you have access to the CD’s at the LDS Family History Centers that contain Connie’s submission there could be a source listed for our Jacob that does not show up on the internet. If so, this would go a long way toward addressing the questions.

Thanks for your effort and input!

Garry

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Re: Superstition Mountain Journal 2007

Postby TomDavis » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:23 am

Hello novice,

You make some good points and raise some good questions also. I am not involved in research at the LDS Family History Center archives and don't make any submits so am not an expert on the process. I do know several old and respected research professionals who do work with the FH Centers on a regular basis.

You are right when you say you and anyone else can make a submission to the genealogy database. That submission is always tied to the person who submitted the entry and their source by reference on the Disc's and in the PR file. The source may or may not appear on the website. The Disc PR File may very well have the primary source as Mrs. Graham had to get the entry from a primary source as she is not a Walz-Waltz family member doing research and making submissions from her own experiences. These family searches start with a name and expand from there collecting thousands of pieces of information from thousands of sources and cross references.

I have been told all primary sources do not come from government records and this is specially true of old world German records. Many are church records and in particular old family Bibles are excellent primary sources for names and decendants. Mrs. Graham's entry on Jacob Walz-Waltz of Phoenix might well have come along with dozens of other names taken from entries in an old Bible from someone that kept track of family and their names, dates, relationships, etc. These old Bibles are considered primary sources for genealogy work. I don't know if that is the case here but that is just one of several possibilities that people do not usually take into account.

I think the Sims Ely book had to get the Waltz information somewhere and either learned this directly from the Waltz himself or from something like a document or family Bible entry. The Family History Center might accept the entry from the Ely book but would always reference that book as the source as well as the submitter's name and address. Non documentary books are not used as sources by researchers unless their entry can be cross referenced with another documented entry somewhere. This is specially true when a researcher such as Mrs. Graham is doing the work.

All in all, it's a great article by the Oertel's and a lot of work went into their research and they presented it very well. I don't know if people realize how time consuming it can be to do this type of work.

Tom Davis
Salt Lake
Mesa