Walt Gassler

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Walt Gassler

Post by count »

Ron, <br> Quite impressed with your website here. Seems like you've thought of just about everything. Very exciting. <br>The trick to finding it and getting on is to use NO SPACES in the web address. <br> <br> On to the subject. The story of Walt Gassler (sp) has interested me for some time because he was supposed to have had a knapsack full of gold bearing quartz concentrate that dis- <br>appeared some time between when his body was found and when the relative went to pick up the personal posessions. <br> It seems to me to be unlikely that a story of a dissappearing knapsack would be conjured up for the sake of keeping a legend going. Also the area where he was found (Charlesbois Canyon Trail) which is hard to find today, suggests that WG was coming down from Peter's Mesa. This tells me he might have found the ore in a pile on the mesa, like some saddlebags were some time back, or perhaps over by Malapais. <br>Anyone know any more about this?
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Post by count »

I believe Tom Kollenborn and Bob Corbin know the details of the dissapearing knapsack. Bob's wife , Helen, touched on it briefly in her book, "Curse of the Dutchman's Gold". Both Maricopa and Pinal County Sheriff's sent men out to investigate Walt's death as it was difficult to tell which County he died in. Neither report mentioned the knapsack, but there are a lot of other things that didn't appear in those reports. Walt died coming down the Charley-boy trail not going up as is commonly reported. His camp was found, set up and in disarray in a Laurel grove up on the Mesa. A camp he frequently used. <br>There are a lot of questions surrounding his death. Walt died of a heart attack and it appeared to be natural causes. No autopsy or forensic investigatin was done, in fact an MD signed his death certificate. Very unusual for the circumstances. The man who discovered Walt's body ( a man known well by Ron Feldman) left everything as he found it and hurried out of the mountains to alert authorities. When the first Pinal Co. deputy arrived there were several men moving up the trail above and away from Walts body. They stood above and watched for a time, then dissapeared up onto the Mesa. <br>Neither Sheriff's deputies questioned these men. The only people camped on the Mesa at that particular time were some of Crazy Jake's partners. There is some good hard evidence as well as a confession that Jerry Sherwood packed Walt into his camp on the Mesa. Jerry Sherwood was also packing Jake and his partners back then also. <br>I don't know if Walt had a knapsack or gold with him when he died. I do know the circumstances of his being there are very confusing to say the least. <br>Deputies found Walt with only about a quart of water and a small bag of personal items. Where was his camping gear if he was going up and into his camp as is commonly reported ? I know there are others who have looked into this yourselves, to the point of backtracking Walt's last movements. Maybe someone out there can throw some light on the issue.
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Post by count »

Excellent post Matt. <br> <br>The point you bring up about Walt's camping gear (or the lack thereof) on his hike "up" to the Mesa has been conveniently overlooked by most folks doing analysis on this subject. It's something, I think, that can not be stressed too strongly. Did Walter Gassler make it up to Peters Mesa before he died coming down OFF the Mesa? <br>Hard evidence and logic seems to say there is a strong possiblity of this happening. <br> <br>The case has been made that Walt was 83 years old and there is no way he could have hiked up to his camp on Peters Mesa <br>all in one day. If one reads about Walts trip into the mountains in May of 1983 ( a year before his fateful trip in May of 1984)one comes away with the fact that Walt was having a hard time of it, became disoriented and had to turn back. You would then logically assume that there is no way he would have been able to make the same trip a year later. <br> <br>The key factor here, I think, is the location from where he made his trek into the mountains. In 1983 he went in from the Peralta Trailhead, and as such would have had to deal with the climb up the Dutchman Trail (where he said he went). In 1984 he went in from First Water (remembering, no doubt, his experience the year before),which, I believe would have been a much easier journey for Walter. <br> <br>Tha above, of course, doesnt take into account the possiblity of him being packed into the Peters Mesa area, which, of course is another possibility. <br> <br>Once on the Mesa did Walt uncover the LDM and take out a good sampling of the gold? Well....no, at least I do not think so. Walt thought there were two mines, one on the Mesa proper and one in a "hidden" canyon that he thought was the mine of the Soldiers and Deering. He also thought that Waltz had found a cache (s) in a rock house up on the Mesa, rather than a mine. Walt was adamant before his last trip in that he had finally figured out the "source of Waltz's gold". I think reading between the lines here he meant that he had figured out where a cache was. <br> <br>Did Walt find a "saddlebag" of gold ore like the Kocheras did? I doubt it. (I also doubt the Kocheras "found" a saddlebag full of ore by dumb luck, but thats a story for another day). <br> <br>In any event, I dont want to be longwinded here...the subject of Walter Gassler has always been near and dear to me...hopefully others more knowledgeable than I wont might sharing after these 20 years or so....
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Post by count »

I will tell you what I know of this story. A good friend of mine , Don Shade found Walter Gassler's body. He was sitting in an upright position and Don did see the backpack. He did not touch the backpack and came out to contact authorities. A man named Gene Baker who worked for me at the time was with Don then. Gene was packing Don into the mountains . I had talked to Walt's son after that , and he stated that his father had never found any gold; however I think if there was gold in the backpack he was bringing it , in hopes to identify it with something he may had found or he actually did find it like Kochera did. By the way Peter, you are very astute. John found the ore by going to the mountain he did because he was following a map given to him by an Apache named Haywood. I have the map and it puts you on top of the mesa. It supposedly leads you to a mine and Kochera just found the ore accidently. Of course , like most of the other maps , it probaly is bogus if it leads one to a mine around there, but you know my feelings about the west v.s. east side of the Superstitions.
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Post by count »

Hi Ron, <br> <br>Interesting snippet of information, along with your own theory about Walt bringing the ore in to compare. Of course this begs the question....just where did he find the ore that he brought in to compare in the first place!? :) <br> <br>I dont know how astute I am, I think I just have a knack for playing "well suppose...". That and falling in the right folks goes a long way to figuring things out! <br> <br>I have a comment about the Kochera incident. (I am sure I wont break any new ground as far as you are concerned, Ron, but I think this is something average folks dont know). <br> <br>The tale about the Apache named "Haywood" is correct. It is my understanding that he was from San Carlos and was generally thought of as a ne'er-do-well by traditionalist Apache. Whats not known by most is that <br>Haywood met the Kocheras in either Wisconsin of northern Michigan and the Kocheras themselves were American Indians, descendants of the Chippewa (Ojibway) that were native to that area <br>of the Upper Great Lakes. <br> <br>Haywood apparently had some information related to a mine or cache (to the Apache a mine or cache were one in the same...they had no words to distinguish one from the other)in an area related to Peters Mesa. I for one find it incredulous that these Chippewa from the Great Lakes just stumbled by dumb "luck" upon a "saddlebag" of discarded ore...on their very first trip <br>into the mountains! <br> <br>There was something more in play here. <br>I also believe they were fortunate to leave that area with their ore (and selves) intact. <br> <br>On another note, and maybe this will add a smidgeon to the legend....the story goes that Haywood <br>died in an auto wreck, never having returned to Arizona. I wonder if bad "luck" (or angry Gans) caught up with him at last.... lol
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Post by count »

Peter, <br> <br> Your range of knowledge spans quite a width. What you said about Kochera and Haywood was mostly correct; however Kochera was part Apache,at least that is what he told me, which actually might give more credence in some thoughts you had. I will say that I probaly knew him better that any hunter and I don't think he and his brother finding the ore happened any other way than by following the Haywood map and by accident finding the ore. I have his interview just before he died recorded ,and he tells the complete story. The one thing I do know is he was a man that did not lie. <br> <br> I'm just not real sure Gassler actually had any gold on him in the first place. He may have. How it really got started I don't know. Like someone said earlier, it would of been possible that he found some on top like Kochera did.
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Post by count »

Hi Ron, <br> <br>It still doesn't sit right with me about Kochera finding the ore the way he did (a decaying saddlebag at the side of a trail). This from a man who had a map from an Apache who lived at San Carlos! Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think he found the LDM and worked it in secret or anything like that. I think the scenario of him having a map to a hidden cache (perhaps some ore stored by Apache after the second Mexican fight)much more plausible. From what I know of what happened after Kochera recovered the ore, this would seem to be the most likely scenario to my mind. <br> <br>On the flip side of the coin, there is a question here that begs to be answered.... <br> <br>Lets assume for a second the following: <br> <br>1) Kochera did indeed find a decaying saddlebag on the side of a trail. <br> <br>2) Walt Gassler had some ore that was reported to be similar in nature to Dutchman ore; and because of the location of Walt's activities in the mountains, it's a fair assumption to place the Gassler ore near (more or less) the Kochera ore. <br> <br> The question I have, of course, is why are folks finding ore laying about in one general locale that seems to be very similar in nature to existing LDM ore samples? <br> <br> Now, I am not suggesting we should all bring our picks and shovels up to Peters Mesa; those few Dutch Hunters who know me well know I do not beleive the LDM is on the Mesa. Still, certain evidence does point to Peters Mesa as being an important link to the mystery.... <br> <br> Anyways, just thinking out loud here. <br>Maybe the LDM is out east after all.... <br>But I tend to doubt it. <grin>
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Post by count »

I don't know what if anything Walt Gassler may have found and had with him when he died. And I don't know for certain what or where the Kochera ore came from. I do know that the circumstances surrounding both these men is out of the ordinary, and is it a coincidence that they were both in the same general vicinity ? <br>I never knew John and Joeseph Kochera but I did know Walt Gassler. Gassler truly believed something was in his search area, be it a mine, a cache , or some indian plunder. I think that Walt probably felt he was reaching the point in his life when he could no longer go in the mountains and wanted to try one last time to unravel the mystery and prove or disprove a few of his theories. Gassler was one of the most serious and well researched Dutch hunters who ever hiked the mountains. He was also one of the nicest men you would ever meet, a true gentleman. <br>I can't vouch for the whole Kochera story but some of it has an eerie similarity linking it to past events. <br>I've seen some of the Kochera ore and read the results from T.Glover's ore testing. It is very similar in nature to the Dutchman (matchbox) ore and if it didn't come from the same mine, it came from a mine closeby, initiated by the same geologic event.
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Post by count »

Just a short comment on the "Indian plunder" angle. <br> <br> I have always thought that if "Indian plunder" contained ore that was in some way traceable the Dutchman ore, then it was obviously a result of ore plundered from the Mexican <br>miners in the area, rather than plunder taken from raids in the surrounding area. <br> <br> The Apache weren't stupid. By the 1800s, they obviously knew that the rocks with the "yellow metal" held value to the Spanish they had come in contact with. I have always wondered if they just "dumped the rocks on the ground" as the stories go...to keep the sacks!.... of if they didnt store some of those rocks for a rainy day.
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Post by count »

I find the story of kochera's gold very interesting. Do you think Kochera worked a hidden cache? What do you know of what happened after kochera found the gold? Why do you think that this Indian Hayward gave the Kocheras a map? Why didn't he just get it himself. <br>And you say that the Kocheras were lucky to make it out with the ore and themselves intact....please expand your thought on this? This was their first time into the area? Was it their last trip in..or did they go back. <br>Thanks guys. Just found this site, but have been searching myself for awhile! Glad to hear thoughts from others!
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Post by count »

It is my opinion that the Kocheras were given a map to a cache in the area <br>and as fate would have it, were actually able to recover some ore. My understanding is that it was their first time (though not their last) into the area. <br> <br>I also beleive that if there was anything else in the area where they found the ore, it was then secreted to a different location, which is why they did not recover any additional ore (that I know of) at a later time.
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Post by count »

Peter <br>Sorry, but I don't think average folks should be given "mis-information", either. First, despite what you "have heard"...the Kochera's were not descendents of the Chippawa....they weren't even from Wisconsin!!! <br>Second, Ron Feldman knew John Kochera VERY well...and, although John was very secertive...he was not one to lie. <br>The story is he and his brother Joe found the bag by "luck." Haven't you ever had a bit of "luck" in your life? I feel sorry for you if you haven't! I certainly feel "lucky" to have personally know John Kochera!
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Post by count »

Mr Anonymous, <br> <br>No need to feel any sympathy for me, I have indeed heard of "luck"! (and some even comes my way once in a great while). lol <br> <br>As far as how John Kochera came upon his ore, I still doubt the "find the old leather saddle bag at the side of the trail" story. Am I wrong? Maybe. <br> <br>Maybe not. <br> <br>No need to get yourself in a tither over someone simply expressing an opinion or thinking out loud.
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Post by count »

Not, in a tither here...just disputing some of "your Facts". Like the Kochera's being Ojibway (chippawa), sorry, but that fact alone contradicts your theory of an "outside" indian conspiracy. And, if it were a cache, I think 2 brothers could have/ and would have carried out alot more gold than was found in the saddlebags... <br>I don't know where you got the wild idea about the Wisconsin indian connection...but, since I know that NOT to be true..I question your other "theory" on the subject. And, hey...just expressing my thoughts..so, don't take offense.
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Post by count »

I never met John or Joe Kochera but as many others I have heard the story that the Kochera's were of indian heritage and met the apache Haywood while living in Wisconsin nearby or on a Chippewa reservation in Wisconsin. It was written somewhere that around 1960 the Kochera's made their first trip to Arizona. I have also heard the Kochera's were part Apache on their fathers side, possibly Mimbres , but no Kochera's remain today at either San Carlos or Mescallero where the Mimbres reside. John Kochera passed on about a year ago but he has a grandaughter (Kathy) who lives somewhere out of state I believe. I would appreciate it if either you or Ron could fill in the blanks for me as I have always been interested in the Kochera account and it would be great if you could clear up the story for all of us. I believe the Kochera's were honarable men and no one intends to take away from their ability or success in the mountains.
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Post by count »

Hello Mr Anonymous, <br> <br>I'm not terribly sure the "Wisconsin Indian" connection is as wild as you postulate, I believe there is some truth to that. <br> <br>I do not think there is some "outside <br>Indian conspiracy". I simply believe the Kocheras had an accurate map and were able to follow it correctly. The fact that Haywood was an Apache and that the Kocheras had Amerindian blood <br>is simple coincidence I think. <br> <br>No offense taken. The great thing about this forum is folks can share theories with others, think out loud and have solid give or take on the most obscure <br>bits of LDM lore. I post as often as I do because I try to stir the pot and get folks to contribute... and to THINK.
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Post by count »

Not diputing the American Indian blood...just the chippawa part. <br>Good to get discussions going and make people think...but, I do agree with Ron on this one. I think he has the true story. Thanks.
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Post by count »

I must have missed something - where did the notion of an Indian conspiracy come from? Prior to the posting to which I'm replying, I don't see any mention of a conspiracy.
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Post by count »

I dont rightly know. If you are the same "anonymous" that has been posting to this thread, then YOU made a reference to an Indian conspiracy a few posts back. <br> <br>I simply replied to it. <br> <br>Of course, if there is more than one anonymous posting to this particular thread....I dont know what to say. <br> <br>< A NOTE TO ANONYMOUS POSTERS....DO YOU THINK IT WOULD BE OK TO POST A NICK NAME RATHER THAN "ANONYMOUS" I AM NOT TOO BRIGHT AND OFTEN CONFUSE THE DIFFERENT "ANONYMOUS" POSTERS> LOL <br> <br>Things seem to be confusing enough trying to figure out if Kochera is 1/2 Apache , 1/2 Chippewa or something in between !
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Post by count »

I am a different anonymous - we have spoken in previous postings, and I asked you about the stone chiefs. The other anonymous you've been talking to is obviously an imposter. <br>HEY just kidding guys! But I haven't posted to this topic before now, and just wanted to know when the conspiracy theory was introduced. I guess I didn't miss it after all!
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Post by count »

Hello everyone, <br> <br> You guys are reading way too much into the Kochera story. Trust me when I say John who again , I knew very well, told me the exact circumstances. Again John shared many other thoughts about the Dutchman. He did find the ore on Peters, it was in some bushes in rotted saddlebags, It has been compared to Dutchman ore with the results that I assume all know, He did not find a cache or a mine, he went back into the mountains for many years after the find, of which I had the pleasure of packing him into. John lied of nothing . Those are the facts and as I stated earlier to Matt, I will tell what I know if you ask about them. I had his permission to tell his information for quite a few years; However,Peter brings out an excellent point, Why have there been so many similiar ore samples found there? I too don't think the mine is any where near there, and I'm a believer of the east side, but Peter's Mesa played in the role somehow , maybe a major route out?Another thing is John Kochera actually believed that the Mine was on Blacktop Mountain!
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Post by count »

I think I have posted some times out of sequence. Please check on my post today about half way back. I'll try and stay in order.
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Post by count »

I think every Dutch Hunter into the 1960s thought the LDM was on Black Top Mesa at one point or another. <br> <br>Putting aside the source of the Kochera ore, there is still another puzzle here. Just why is this ore popping up on Peters Mesa? And why in a place like Peters Mesa, as opposed to a place like Marsh Valley where the Mexicans seemed to locate their main camp? <br> <br>I think it reasonable that one or more of the following must be true: <br> <br>1) The LDM (or something very similar) is indeed nearby. <br> <br>2) Peters Mesa was a popular thoroughfare and a couple of bags dropped off in transit. <br> <br>3) The area was used as a storehouse (by Mexicans, Apache, Waltz?) and several caches are/were located there. <br> <br>4) There was a work camp in the area...possibly an arrastra and thats why ore has been found there. <br> <br>5) Here's something that intrigues. There was a rumor of a fight between the Apache and miners deep in the interior of the mountains at the same time the fight at the Massacre Grounds was taking place. Perhaps a small ore train was ambushed up there and ore found over the years came from this pack train... <br> <br> <br>6) Perhaps the ore found there was simply seeded throughout the area to keep folks away from the REAL area of importance (kind of a stretch here..) <br> <br>Be interested in seeing what other folks think about the above possibilities. Personally I think at least 4 of the above are likely to be true....
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Post by count »

Peter, <br> You're thinkin'. Didn't Waltz say he had two small caches and one large one hidden not too far from the mine. This begs the question how far is "not too far"? I'll take questions 3 and 6 as your best bets. It is my understanding that the mesa was one of the routes taken, both in and out. Why not have several stashes throughout the mountains? <br> The one thing that keeps nagging at me all through my reading and talking about this fabulous legend is the fact that the "dutchman" was no dummy. I believe he was a very cagy and crafty man who knew the value of keeping his secret. <br> <br> Given the history of the area I'm confident he knew that he would have to have several stashes located in different locales to see him through his waning years. He knew he wouldn't be physically fit enough to secretly ever get back to the mine. He must have known that it would cost him his life if he tried. "They" would have bumped him off just as soon as they found it through him. <br> I believe it is geologically feasible for there to be two undescovered mines and possibly a third. One could be on the mesa. <br> Another thing. Watz's gold was so peculiar in it's ore bearing quartz. I've never seen anything like it. Jewelry grade ore like that just isn't around much, and Watz's was the most beautiful I've seen (in photo's which don't lie too often). That's one of the reasons I became so interested in the knapsack. Are there more specimens sitting is someone's safe? Is that someone secretly exploring around up on the mesa? It makes me wonder.
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