is there gold
is there gold
hi all <br> im not trying to rock the boat and i feel im gonna get slated for this.but is there any REAL evidence of waltz ever having a rich gold mine in superstitionds?the holmes gold story seems suspect at the very least.waltz himself seems to have died a pauper. the numerous *discoveries* are mostly oft told tales with little if any corroberation,(sic) everybody seems to have their own hidden or secret clues etc. but nobody actually ever finds eanything. mty own intrest in mine is in the folklore -the rest (in my humble opinion ) is pie in the sky
The story of Jacob Waltz and his "Lost Dutchman Mine" is 90% circumstantial evidence and 10% verifiable fact. I believe the businessman in question was Gus Hirshfield. He purchased most of the gold ore from Aaron Goldman. Hirshfield then had several items of Jewelry made from the ore. Holmes reportedly received $4800 from Goldman Bros. Mercantile for the original sale of the ore. Goldman told people it was the richest ore he had ever seen. <br>Julia Thomas filed suit in Phoenix City court alleging Holmes "mis-appropriated" about 50 lbs. of gold ore belonging to her on or about October 25, 1891. The case was dismissed for lack of evidence and witnesses. Julia claimed Holmes took 50 lbs of gold ore from her. Lets say the ore was 70% concentrate (70% gold 30% quartz). A fair estimate of concentrate in those days. Raw gold (concentrate) sold for $9 an ounce in 1891. 70% of 50 lbs. would be about 525 ounces. 525 ounces times $9 an ounce would come out to $4,700 dollars. The story of the sale of the gold is well within the ballpark of reality. Joseph Porterie did the assay for the Goldman Bros. Porterie was a real person who had an office in an alley known as Wall street in those days. Porterie had been a chemist at the Vulture mine and would have recognized Vulture ore . Porterie lived until about 1931 and often related the specifics of that gold deal to Phoenix residents. Many of you out there may know the details of this much better than I. This is simply the way I heard the account. The account has both circumstantial elements and verifiable facts. It's enough to conclude that Waltz had something of value when he died. Where he got it, and if there was any more is debatable.
I personally feel there is credible evidence of a mine in the Superstitions. That said, there's no reason at all for you to be "slated" for stepping back and asking the basic questions. The only way you can investigate this thing intelligently is to question everything and don't assume anything, right? <br>As for the Holmes story, I always wondered how someone dying of pneumonia could gasp out such a long narrative. I wonder if maybe Dick Holmes didn't pad things up a little so his son Brownie wouldn't think him a thief.
Peter and LDM are on target. The story Ldm told is verifiable. However for those of you that have not heard the John Kochera story, here it is. <br> John Kochera was a dutchman hunter that I packed into the mountains for many years. He as most was always very secretive about what he was doing, but after 17 years of knowing him he began to share some info with me. One day he called me and asked if I wanted to buy some ore that he claimed he and his brother found in the mountain in 1962. It was very rich ore and they found 24 pounds in some rotted saddlebags. Through the years he sold off some, but now he needed money and I bought the rest. There were only about 6 pieces left. Some of it was very rich and would assay at about half a million dollars a ton at today's prices. My idea was to try and compare the dutchman ore that I could avail myself to, and Kocera's ore by an electron scanning microscope. I was not able to get the job done till Tom Glover who bought some of the ore from me did. This is talked about in his book. He did better than my original idea, because he took in Dutchman , Kochera, Goldfield , and Vulture mine ores. There are three basic types of Quartz, Hypothermal, Epithermal, and Mesothermal. The results were that vulture ore was so visibly different from the others it was not run. All the goldfield ores were epithermal and all highly similiar to each other. Dutchman and Kochera ore were Mesothermal and there was a high probabilty that they either came from a related source or even the same source. I think this speaks reams of evidence that two ores found from two different times being a possible match indicates and supports that both came from the Superstitions.I in fact believe this to be a piece of evidence that lends the most credence to the Dutchman having gold and coming from where it was said to come from.
I'd like to acknowledge what Ron just said. THE most important part of Dr Tom Glovers THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE OF JACOB WALTZ in my opinion, was the chapter on the ore analysis. <br> <br>There was, however, an additional ore sampled, something that Glover called "camp ore" that supposedly came from the main Mexican camp in Marsh Valley. This ore too showed the same characteristics of the "Superstition" ore. <br> <br>Too much smoke here for there not to be a fire...
here we go again you see.as u say glovers gcamp ore that SUPPOSEDLY came from mexican camp. this is what bothers me most - the many supposedly and anoymous eventsand people involved.and as for smoke - well smoke can alspo obscure your vision as well as tell you theres a fire.i read glovers book too and wasnt that impressed- he also used the standard ploy of announcing facts backed up by mysterious andanonymous sources. if there is an answer to this enigma in my opinion it is not to be found in any *dutchman*book or listening to oft recited ta;les or looking for symbols(most of which were probabley put there by barry storm lol) but by a good measure of luck.the clues we have been handed down i feel are bogus -logic tells us they mudst be surely .thanks fer listening
I think the many "supposedlys" and "anonymouslys" involved in this tale <br>are due to folks not wanting to give up their sources and secrets, rather than <br>just handing down bogus clues through the years. <br> <br>Two cases in point. A few folks know where the "camp ore" really came from <br>and I applaud their silence on the subject. Like wise Ron, I think, has a good idea where the Kocheras "found" their "saddlebag" full of ore, but chooses not to go into detail about it. <br> <br>Are many of the clues handed down over the years false or out of context? Most assuredly yes. Are ALL the clues bogus? <br> <br>No. <br> <br>And luck WILL play a part if the LDM is ever located. Luck backed up by hard work and putting the pieces of the puzzle together properly.
Certainly luck has to play into finding something, But you can't assume all clues and information is bogus. Untruths also exist side by side with truths. Speaking of that , has anyone noticed the new addition to this site of the treasure maps. As in all the information, these maps may be predominately bogus, but they are part of the history of this legend, and may contain some reference that some day somebody will use to find the mine. At any rate the addition of all these maps is nice and appreciated by this dutchman hunter. I also have read all the books on the subject, and I don't have to tell you that alot of them are not much use. There are only a handful that have hidden in them some real good information, and like Peter said some things will remain secret for many reasons , sometimes only because somebody has given their word not to devulge a source and I applaud them too.
i agree those mapa are a great addition to thesite. much appreciated-this site is really showing promise. keep up the good work. <br> forgive my doubts but ok people do give their words not to divulge secrets(tho how many would keep it is another question)and it could be why there are so many anonymous figures around. but that argument can also be used to spice up an authors work-gives them full rein to launch another wild and wonderful version of the tale-or to attempt to give their theory credibility. in my opinion nobody has written a definitive account of the legend each author has added his own *genuine* discoveries or anecdotes to the tale.this is maimnly i think why the dutchman legend endures.
There can never be enough hard evidence, short of finding the actual mine, to convince someone who doesn't want to believe it's there. A good deal of it is faith. Strictly speaking, there's more concrete evidence of the existence of the LDM than there is of the existence of God. But plenty of people believe in God. You're a skeptic, which is good and will keep your judgement from being clouded by the desire to see something where it may not be. But it's just as easy to become blinded by doubt and disbelief. Somewhere along the line you have to decide if you want to believe in it.