Talon and soldiers

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Talon and soldiers

Post by count »

Talon, <br> <br> I have never heard of such claims. I'm sure not only myself would like to hear what you wish to discuss. <br> <br> <br> Peter, <br> <br> The Silver King was discovered in 1875 as you said. The stamp mill was constructed very shortly after it's discovery. I really feel the soldier story happened about 1877. Frazier was involved then and so was Aaron Mason. The c;aims that Al referenced in my book are legitimate, and the date is 1877. As for Deering , who knows what was said as you mentioned. Ayearor six years ago is lost. I think Aaron Mason was prompted to file those claims in 1877 by what he saw from the soldiers. ( By the way the claims were actually filed by the request of Aaron Mason. Three other names are on the claim, and I always felt that two of the names maybe were the two soldiers.
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Post by count »

Hi Ron, <br> <br>On this subject I think I will agree to disagree with you. I beleive the '77 time frame too early, but the Mason/mining claim theory does intrigue. <br> <br>I will share a pet theory of my own that touches on the Soldiers Story. I have always believed that Waltz needed a catalyst to close and timber over "his" mine. Is it possible that the story of the disappearence and murder of the Soldiers in an area where Waltz knew his mine to be was the factor that caused Waltz to cover over the mine? <br> <br>The Soldiers found the dump, tunnel and shafts in 1884 (?). Deering found it a year (?) later in the late summer of 1885. Deerings description was of a "tunnel that had been walled up but had settled" and "two big shafts that were pretty well filled". This description does not sound to me like the shaft(s) and tunnel were covered up the way Waltz claimed he did, therefore Waltz had to cover over the area after this time frame. <br> <br>I am sure Waltz was interested in any news coming from the Salt River Mountain area. Had he heard about 2 soldiers finding a hidden mine in those mountains in a very rough place, this may well have been the catalyst he needed to go hide the mine and this time do a proper job of it. <br> <br>Perhaps it is just coincidence that the LDM vanished after the Deering account, but perhaps Waltz's closing of the mine <br>(maybe over the winter of 85-86) was as good a job as he said it was. From that time on it seems to have vanished from history. Of course there is another account of someone locating the mine <br>AFTER Waltz's supposed "cover up" and <br>AFTER the earthquake of '87, but it is not my story to tell. <br> <br>In any event, the above is just idle specualtion, it seems logical to me that this COULD have occurred, but .. <br>quien sabe?
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Post by count »

Peter, <br> <br> Even though some stories have the Dutchman covering the mine, I'm not convinced he did. I too believe there was a tunnel with possibly two shafts; however consider the dates that you said 1885 or 1886, for him to have done such a enormous task as covering the mine. He would of been 75 or 80 years old, can one imagine the difficulty of this old man to even of made it back there then? Look how hard it is for almost anyone today with all the modern transportation to the mountain and all the things we have available to us now , to get into the mountains and spend any quality time. It still boils down to time and physical and mental opportunity. The Dutchman at such an old age especially for that time , I don't think would of been able to do that task. Again though going back to an earlier time frame , he may have been able to. I just think Mother Nature has had more to do with covering the mine than anything else.
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Post by count »

I fully agree with your argument as far as age goes. However, I still do not beleive that Waltz covering over the mine beyond the realm of possiblity or probability. Heres why: <br> <br>I think we can all agree that Waltz was born in 1810 and that would have meant he was 75ish over the winter of 85-86. <br>Yes 75 is an advanced age, but I know of at least one Dutch Hunter who still prospects to this day in very rough country who is very close to that same age. Walter Gassler himself at the age of 84 still hiked into the CharlyBoy area (yes I know he died in the process!)and did some heavy work in the years before his final fatal trip. <br> <br>Was Jacob Waltz, a man used to making long lonely trips into the mountains and used to labor able to make the journey at 75 years old? I do not know, but I think it possible. <br> <br>So the age question, while significant, <br>does not rule out Waltz covering over a mine shaft(s) in the '85 time frame. <br> <br>As to the enormity of the task..what exactly did Waltz do? He widened the shaft some, cut some ironwood (or laurel)timber, laid them on the ledge of the shaft and brushed over the area. <br>The tunnel seemed to have settled some, perhaps it needed some touching up and camoflauge. <br> <br>I dont beleive this task was beyond Waltz either, even at that advanced age. <br> <br>After this event the mine disappears from history..maybe. <br> <br>I also believe that mother nature had a significant hand in making sure the mine area has remained hidden, but I also feel that had not Waltz covered the shafts, then it would have been found sometime between 1895-1920 when there was free rein in the mountains to pretty much come and go as one pleased. <br> <br>After the 1920 time frame, things changed....
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Post by count »

What makes us think the mine was not found between 1895-1920?
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Post by count »

Hi Ron, <br> <br>The answer to your question really is that there is no answer....who really knows? <br> <br>But......I think a few things mitigate against the mine being found at that time. <br> <br>For one thing you had, for all intents and purposes two different "camps" racing each other to find the LDM. You had the Petrasch camp (and to this I add <br>Bark/Ely and co) and you had the Holmes <br>camp (and to this camp I add the QCU and people like John Chunning). Throw some Mexicans in the mix (whether they were Peralta descendants or laborers looking to highgrade the Peralta gold)and you have a busy time in the mountains. <br> <br>Dick Holmes said he would have located and recorded the mine if he found it and I beleive him. I think others would have done the same at that time in order to keep their competition at bay. <br>I also beleive that because the search was fairly intensive by different parties at that time that it would have been very difficult to hide a reopened working (no matter how remote) with other searchers combing the hills. <br> <br>I also beleive that human nature being what it is, that it would have been very difficult to keep such a thing secret. If the mine was recovered and worked, there would have been some hint of gold ore being assayed, sold, etc... <br>Yet history shows none (that I know of) <br>on a scale that would suggest that the LDM was found and worked. <br> <br>Once the window of opportunity closed after the First World War, I think it became more difficult (and MUCH more dangerous) for prospectors in those mountains. <br> <br>Of course, there is always the chance <br>that someone found it and worked it in secret, perhaps shipping ore out of state to keep things quiet. Who knows... <br> <br> <br>P
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Post by count »

Ron and Peter, lot of good info on the 2 soldiers story, Waltz and the timeline. One thing I don't get is the part about free rein in the mountains up till the end of WWI the 1920 timeframe, then it became more difficult for prospectors. Did something happen back then, a discovery maybe that isn;t commonly known ? Or did the ranches try to close people out of the mountains ?
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Post by count »

Lets just say that a certain group of folks that had been away for a while returned to the area around that timeframe. And returned with a vengeance...
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Post by count »

Any connection to the disapearance and death of Adolf Ruth or is that another story ?
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Post by count »

Without repeating the entire Ruth story again, I beleive Ruth was killed by another prospector after his map. <br>As to who where and when, that will be debated by Dutch Hunters eternally I think.
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Post by count »

To all: <br> <br>I couldn't let this discussion go by without a comment. I am familiar with the "group" that returned with a vengence that Peter refers to. Let's just say a certain Cavalry General put out a bounty only "provable" a certain way that resulted in many, many cases of "mistaken identity." <br> <br>Ruth's death was not related to the "group" that returned. But, there were other deaths earlier than Ruth's in which decapitation was the order of the day. Let's say as a way of "payback." <br> <br>Regarding the Two Soldiers: I agree a lot with Peter about the time frame based on what I believe is a common understanding of the information at hand. However, just to throw a monkey wrench into things - an aquaintance that I believe Peter and I share believes the date to be sometime from 1883 up to 1884 based on two interesting bits of information. 1) That was the only time frame that three important "witness" to the Two Soldiers tale were all present at the Silver King at the same time - Bowen, Frazier, and Mason. And 2) the fact that certain newspaper articles are "missing" from that time frame.
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Post by count »

Oops. I see in other posting that Peter already mentioned what I brought up. All I can say is I agree with 1883 to 1884.
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Post by count »

I would like someone else besides myself to research the actual dates when Bowen. Frazier, and Mason were at the Silver King, they will be surprised. Forget the story book version and dates.
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Post by count »

As far as the mentions made above of a group that returned after the first World War, I was assuming that the reference referred to Indian groups. The return of Apaches to the SouthWest from Oklahoma in this general time frame, or something similar. <br> <br>But I've never been too sure what to make of references of this sort in various books. Such as Estee Conatser's mention of an Indian group called the "Black Legion". A true story, or just a tall tale to sell books?
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Post by count »

Apaches" I think used in this context is too general a term. Indeed, there were many many thousands of Apaches living peaceably throughout New Mexico and Arizona (notably at nearby San Carlos)from the 1870s onward. <br> <br>As far as the specific group of Apaches you are refering to, these were the last renegade bands of Chiricahua under <br>Geronimo and Mangus (Mangus Coloradas' son......an interesting side note here: as some of you no doubt know, Mangus Coloradas was captured by US troops, tortured, killed and BEHEADED...food for thought)who surrendered in 1886. <br> <br>Looked on today as patriots and freedom fighters by their own people and many whites, the view of the renegade Chiricahua back then was a very different one. Peacable Apache shunned them and showed outright hostility towards them, blaming them for many of the hardships and restrictions that they faced on the reservation. Whites, having suffered under their depradations, simply wanted them exterminated on sight...... <br> <br>Those of you who are interested in further insight into the subject might want to pick up a copy of: <br> <br>CHIRICAHUA PRISONERS OF WAR: FT SILL 1894-1914 by John Anthony, Jr <br> <br>Now I think the main question you asked <br>was about the supposed "Black Legion" whispered about around the campfire. This entity is supposed to be composed of guardian Apache, watching over sacred burial sites, buried caches, places of "power", etc... It has been blamed for every single death and disappearence in the mountains, including that of Adolph Ruth. <br> <br>Does a "Black Legion" exist? I tend to doubt it, at least not on the scale that the storytellers say. Do a few Apache familys have ancestral spirit ties to certain areas of the mountains and visit them occasionaly? Probably. <br>Of course this doesnt mean they are standing guard 24/7 over Geronimo's treasure cave or Nana's hidden raiding caches.. (if THEY exist)LOL
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Post by count »

Oops... <br> <br>The book mentioned is authored by John Anthony Turcheneske, Jr. Sorry for the typo !!!
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