Build it and they will come...
Build it and they will come...
Well, Ron, you are certainly on your way to having your repository of information. I've made your web site my home page, and check it first thing when I log on. Like "Field of Dreams", they're starting to show up. Word is spreading. Keep up the good work. <br> <br>Peter: Whatever I may think of your discretion, I have to say you have certainly stirred things up. This site has become much more interesting since you showed up. <br> <br>Ron again: When do we get to see some excavation info??
As far as discretion goes.... <br> <br>LDM hunters have been a super secret lot for the past 115 years, jealously guarding every scrap of data they obtain <br>in the fear that someone else will beat them to the end of the rainbow... <br> <br>115 years ! Hello???? Am I missing something here? Folks have had their big "secrets" for 115 years and guess what.....no mine. Brownie Holmes spent 40 years in the mountains with the full <br>support of the QCU knowing full well all of the Waltz "deathbed" secrets and he didnt find it! So much for "secret" <br>information. <br> <br>As far as the forum goes, the pot should be stirred up and get folks to THINK. Not blindly follow whatever clues they have amassed during their lifetimes. A little logical reasoning <br>goes a long way in puzzle solving. I think one of biggest pluses for me is that I have been distanced from AZ and the mountains by geography. My view of the puzzle has not been warped by the <br>"guilt of past associations" (wherein a persons view of things is shaped by a friend/mentor/colleague). <br> <br>And I have been discrete. I have not mentioned a single "secret" that can not be found in books,manuscripts,letters or do[beep]ents that are available to the public. If any of the things I mention is new to someone or is cause for concern, well then that person simply hasnt done their homework. Want to know 99% of the LDM "secrets" out there? Start researching and reading, you might be surprised what you turn up. <br> <br>I, of course, do have my own "secrets" <br>and logical conclusion to the puzzle. <br>Will I succeed where others have failed? I doubt it. <br> <br>But is sure is fun looking.....Maybe the treasure is in the search after all...and the friends you make in the process.
Peter, <br>Don't go getting defensive on me. Your geographical isolation is a double edged blade - there are things you can't know without immediate exposure. All the research in the world won't prepare you for some of the actual realities in the mountains. Theoretical and empirical knowledge can sometimes be at odds. <br>I'm not suggesting that you haven't spent time in the mountains, you obviously have. But what makes you think, for instance, that the mine hasn't been found? Do you think the finder would be publishing the fact? The fact that I personally haven't found it means nothing - absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Waltz found it, Deering found it, the soldiers found it. Who knows who else has found it?
My apologies if I sounded "defensive", I didnt mean to sound that way. <br> <br>Oh I agree with you 100%. I of course do NOT know if the mine has been found or worked since the late 1880s. I have read several accounts of the mine being worked as late as the early 1940s. Whether these are true or not I do not know. I tend to doubt it is being worked today...but who knows. <br> <br>And I completely agree about distance being both a boon and a curse. I still recall the first time entering the Superstitions....I was quite excited to be there of course. I parked at the Peralta Trail Head and decided to hike up to the Fremont Saddle. Off I went..did I negelct to say it was late June, 3pm , the thermometer in the SUV said 116 degrees and I only had can ice tea in my hand? (the ice tea lasted 50 yards I think) <br> <br>Needless to say I didnt get too far. I finally turned back (maybe I had gone 1/2 mile or so) when I realized that the rocks were reflecting the heat back into my face and the only time I had felt heat like that before was in a sauna! lol
RE: SECRETS... <br> <br>Secrets have always been (and will always be) what keeps the Legend alive. <br> <br>If it weren't for all of us believing that Dick Holmes, Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrasch all knew things (Secrets)they weren't telling, we would have all given up the search long ago. Mostly because... We have not been able to locate the mine using the information they DID tell! (So there just HAS to be more!) <br> <br>If Rhiney and Julia had told the whole truth to Jim Bark, He might have found the mine, and if he did... How would Rhiney and Julia know? The only way they could be sure, was to leave something out... or reverse some direction, or change a distance to travel in a certain direction. That way, when Bark found the landmarks they did tell him about, He would still need them (or more information from them) to locate the mine. Well as we all know, Jim Bark never found it. But he did keep a Journal (Later to become "The Bark Notes) about his conversations with everyone he talked to about the possibility of there being a rich mine in the Superstitions. How much information did Bark really reveal in this Journal? How much did he 'Twist' Just enough to ensure nobody could make it all the way to the mine without coming back to him for more information first? Some things we already know about Bark is that He DID keep certain information from Ely! And that Bark's decendents insisted that Ely publish NOTHING in his book that would lead anyone to the mine! (That may be new information to some of you, if so, now you know!) Compare the Bark Notes to Ely's book and observe how the names of People, Mountains, Canyons and Trails have been changed. <br> <br>So... Julia & Rhiney 'Filtered' their information to Bark! Bark 'Filtered' his information to Ely! Ely further 'Filtered' his information to his readers... Every 'Dutchunter' from Rhiney & Julia foreward has wondered... "Did I get the whole truth?" And then... they turned right around and passed on something ~LESS~ than the whole truth as they had heard it! Some of them even added things (Phoney Landmarks or rock carvings)of their own so they could take investers out into the mtns and show them they had found things that Waltz had described on his deathbed!!! <br> <br>No doubt, after 115 years the number of 'Phoney' Landmarks/Clues out number the 'True' Landmarks/Clues as much as 10 or 20 to 1. <br> <br>Many of the modern searchers 'Secrets' are simple knowledge of 'Who' inserted what 'Phoney' Landmarks/Clues into the Legend and when. Although that information will never lead anyone to the mine, It can be helpfull in keeping one from wasting time by being distracted with the 'Phoney' Landmarks/Clues. <br> <br>A lot of modern day seachers even regard their Theories as 'Secrets'. Theories developed by hundreds or thousands of hours of both home and field work. I tend to Beware of the individual TOO Quick to share HIS Theories with me. He obviously has not worked as hard for his as I have for mine! <br> <br>My last words about Secrets... Not all Secrets are 'Valuable'. Some of them seem totally usless! But they were passed on to you in Confidence by someone that honestly believed to the bottom of thier heart, that they were the only 'True'information (Landmarks/Clues) to be followed in the Search for the Lost Dutchman Mine. <br> <br>Who knows, someday they may turn out to be more valuable than you had originally given them credit for. <br> <br>Jacob Waltz was the best 'Secret' keeper of all time. How many years did his secret burn inside him before he finally started letting it out to Rhiney & Julia? And what was his advice to them? "You must keep this SECRET"!
All of the people who contribute to this posting seem to no what theyr talking about and they have spent some time inthe Supperstiton mountains. I hvae looked forthe mine but have never found it. I read all the known books but thers so much to read and I don't know whos telling the truth and whos streching things. I have got some thouts on the mine but dont no if they are based on facts or fantace. How does somebody whos intrestd in finding the mine tell the difrance ? I wood welcome anybody who coud help me with some questons. I dont want to steel anybodys secrets i just wood like tono if certin things are true or not.
You have repeated something what we have all faced over and over again...... <br>are "they (the clues) based on fact or fiction"? As Jim so aptly put it in his above posting (excellent post, Jim !), sometimes its very helpful just to be able to eliminate a clue from the mix, saving you time and energy. <br> <br>If I might simply give you a tip on what helped me.... <br> <br>After sifting through dozens of books by LDM enthusiasts, prospectors and "historians" I went and looked at many, many of the source maunuscripts, notes, letters etc from the early searchers for the mine. What a latter day author reports (or omits) is often <br>shaped by whatever theory he is attempting to prove (or disprove). <br>Barry Storm was a prime example of this, but hardly the only one. <br> <br>Sometimes you can learn more about what a person thinks from areas he omits entirely ! (a recent well written popular book on the subject comes to mind here...) lol <br> <br>If you are serious about your search, then research! <br> <br>P
Thanks for the replys, thats all good advice. Resurch is the key, otherwise all you do is wander around hoping to fall in the mine. Can sombody tell me if Walt Gasner was on the right trak, I read his papers an he seemd to no more then most hunters. I dont seem to be able to shoot many holes in what he says. A mineing man he knew even said he was looking in a good spot.
Walt Gassler spent alot of time up in the Peters Mesa area. He found several interesting clues in the area, but spent years up there and found no color. <br> <br>The mining man you speak, Tom Reis, was a friend of Gassler. He made a trip up there with him and when Gassler showed him where he thought the mine should be, <br>Reis pointed out another site nearby. <br>Nothing came of it, to my knowledge.
Don't we have a consience Peter? <br>Just look at what what we are doing to the poor ole Gold Hunter. He asks us a simple question and we're gonna have him up there on Peter's mesa getting all excited about all the "Dummy" Holes all over the place that Crazy Jake had his boys digging to annoy the Forest Service! <br> <br>Before you go to the Mesa Gold Hunter, better do your homework on Robert Simpson Jacobs... AKA "Crazy" Jake. Most everything you find up there these days are the remains of him and his group. While you are at it, look into the "Quest Group", Chuck Kenworthy also left his mark up there that could be easily found and misunderstood. <br> <br>Jim