Re: Cravey and Geronimo

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Re: Cravey and Geronimo

Post by count »

Doug Stewarts website is: <br> <br>www.lost-dutchman.com <br> <br>It is invaluable for finding books and manuscripts on the subject. I highly recommend it. <br> <br>Your comments about a "curse" deserve further comment. I do not beleive the mountains or any mine or caches that may or may not lie within the Superstitions have been "cursed" (though I did a heap of cursing when I had a jumping cholla stuck in my calf the last time I was up on Black Mesa..lol) <br>in the traditional sense of the word. <br>Indeed using the word "curse" when one <br>is talking about the Apache to me sort of denigrates their religous and cultural practices. <br> <br>Did Geronimo have much to do with the Superstitions? Yes and no. I do not beleive he spent much time there. Remember that Geronimo was born into the Bedonkohe band of Chiricahua. The Bedonkohe were geographically closest of all the Chiricahua bands to the Superstitions. Some say the Bedonkohe were instrumental in driving out Mexican miners (helped along by allied bands of Yavapais, White Mountain and Pinal Apache) from the Superstitions in the early 1860s. <br> <br>As you may know Geronimo married a woman from the Nednhi band of Apache (Apache men always joined the band that their wife belonged to). As the Nednhi were located much further south (some smaller bands ranged as far as the Sierra Madre,) hence Geronimo used those mountains as a stronghold in the 1880s) <br>I beleive that Geronimo had limited contact with the Superstitions. <br> <br>This, of course, does not mean that the mountains were not sacred to the Chiricahua. It simply means that Geronimo spent very little time there. Indeed the only times the Chiricahua entered the mountains were to fast and pray, perhaps bury their dead and hide an occasional cache if they had a successful raid in the area. <br> <br>Where does this "curse" come in? Well, Geronimo never cursed the area against white habitation, never "cursed" any gold mines and never "cursed" any burial <br>areas. Apache religious practices <br>(less than 1% of Apache practice the Old Religion today, btw)dont call for "curses". <br> <br>On this particular subject I tend to tread lightly, so pardon me for being evasive. I personally beleive that the Apache have called up powerful "Ga'ans" (that is a sort of guardian spirit) to watch over certain areas of the mountains. Am I out of my mind? I dont think so. Does our science recognize anything like what I am talking about? It does not! <br> <br>Do the Apache believe it? Yes. Those that still follow the old religion certainly do. <br> <br>Do I? Not while sitting at my desk here watching the S&P 500 trading away. <br> <br>What I beleive when I am in certain areas of those mountains is another story entirely.....
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Post by count »

According to Ely, it was Capt. R, F, Perrin and Lt. Commander Wm. F. Clements who found Cravey. Sheriff Early went in the next day and bagged the bones. According to Ely. Anyone have other info?
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Post by count »

Alright Peter.... You didn't come by all this information on Doug Stewart's website... <br> <br>It didn't come from any of the Published 'Dutchman' Books either... <br> <br>Don't misunderstand me, I do not disagree with anything you said. I just wonder how a guy in New York knows so much about the Apache customs and beliefs? <br>And how he knows how it feels to have a jumping cholla from Black Top Mesa in his calf? <br> <br>Come out from behind that curtain and identify yourself !!! <Grin> <br> <br>Jim
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Post by count »

Hi Jim, <br> <br>It wasnt Black Top Mesa where I had my run in with the cholla, but Black Mesa <br>(north of Black Top), near the cholla forest on the western slope once you climb the long rocky trail from Garden Valley. <br> <br>Lets just say I have been a student of the American Indian for most of my life, and have gotten interested in the Apache in a big way ever since I have been interested in the LDM. <br> <br>I have learned much about the Apache <br>(particuarly the Chiricahua) over the past several years. What I have learned wont help anyone find the mine, but it has made me understand what other forces <br>are at work out in the mountains...forces to be respected and in some cases feared. <br> <br>This is the reason I have been evasive about certain areas. As you well know, Jim, there are certain areas out there <br>that are best left undisturbed. <br> <br> In any event,you are correct in this: much of the information I have learned hasnt come from a book or via the internet. Most has just come from friends (white and red)and one man in particular who I have come to admire and respect. <br> <br>I am not hiding behind any curtain, I am just who I say I am. I am known, (and have even visited with ) several <br>well known LDM folks, so I am not some <br>phantom. lol <br> <br>Anyway I have enjoyed our chats. Next time I get out your way perhaps I can buy you a beer? <br> <br>P
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