Comments and Questions on Ward's "Ripples of Lost Echoe

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Comments and Questions on Ward's "Ripples of Lost Echoe

Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:43 am

I found this book odd and somewhat convoluted, but still interesting to read. I think the thing that struck me the most is how many locations of various missing treasures from gold crosses(pg.33) to paintings(pg.39) to mines(pg.35) that he knows of, but for one reason or another could never quite make it back to retrieve them. Hmmm? <br> <br>He has the most detailed account I&#8217;ve read yet of the Peralta massacre on pg.19. Where would he get all these details? <br> <br>Does anyone know where any of the following are? Mineral Mountains, Mel&#8217;s Cave, John Pierces campsite, or Bambi&#8217;s Roost. <br> <br>He refers to Louis as Marie Jones&#8217; husband. Has anyone heard this reference before? <br> <br>Does anyone know of ruins of an old cabin at the NE corner of Bluff Spring Mtn. he claims to have found? <br> <br>Ward and Garman were both aware of old Spanish mine shafts atop Iron Mountain (pg57). At the bottom of this page he refers to a man in California (mid-fifties age) who brought a gold bar to a wrecking yard in the late 1940&#8217;s that he claimed he found in the Superstitions of Az. Also at the top of pg.97 there is another reference to a Californian finding rocks forming the number &#8220;8&#8221; in 1963 and his picture along with his find came out in the Mesa Tribune. Could either of these be referring to Ted Cox? <br> <br>Does anyone know of the shaft he refers to with the engravings, above Carney Springs, described on pg.92? <br> <br>On pg,94 he claims an earthquack took of the top of Miner&#8217;s Needle and that it used to look like, and be &#8220;the&#8221; Sombrero. Any enlightening comments? <br> <br>Finally, on pg.102 he details some findings in Upper La Barge Box including ruins and a cave with pictures. If you happen to check my &#8220;Herman&#8217;s Cave&#8221; hike description on HikeArizona.com, you&#8217;ll see that the &#8220;cave high up at the base of the cliff facing south&#8221; is not the same as mine. We didn&#8217;t see the cave he has pictured. I also did not see the ruins pictured at the bottom of the page. Has anyone seen either of what he has pictured and did I maybe not go deep enough into the Box? <br> <br>Thanks for any comments guys.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:44 am

Hi Fritzki, <br> <br>You seemed to have read Bob Ward (aka Val Paris)carefully. For myself, I am sure he found all the things he said he did, and I am sure Miners Needle did indeed collapse in 1936 (made it thru the quake of 1887 though it seems), but his book is in my "fiction" pile of LDM stuff (which is a mighty big pile, btw). <br> <br>P

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:44 am

Thanks Peter. What I have read so far, I have highlighted and taken some notes trying to get a descent grasp of the subject through the hodge-podge of material. This is the first time, however, I decided I should try and use you guys and this forum to answer some of the questions that invariably arise after finishing each book. <br> <br>Ward does have a picture he claims is of Miners Needle taken before 1936 and, offhand, it does look different. I will have to eventually take it out and do a comparison. <br> <br>BTW The site sure did not deal well with my apostrophies.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:44 am

I knew Bob Ward pretty well. Peter is right about a fiction work; however Bob knew the mountains well, and it is a little shocking he turned out such a book. Although it is interesting that he mentions gold bars affiliated wih the Iron Mountain area, I can assure you it was not Ted Cox that he was refering to.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:45 am

Bob Ward must have been an interesting character. The thing is, he absolutely believed what he wrote about. However, I think he took some leaps of imagination. Taking everything in his book with a grain of salt there are three things that stick out to me as being improbable and I suspect Ward actually created a few tall tales to put into his book. These were the incident of Maria Jones and Louis burying the "gold" crosses (I belive Ward just "thought" Louis was Maria's husband... there is no other evidence to support that he was...), Ward's claim to helping Garzia bury his paintings, and his claim that he (Ward) actually was the person who discovered the Stone Maps. <br> <br>Despite all that, if you are interested in some of the locations Ward mentions, you might try to get a copy of the "Ward Map." Sometimes it appears on ebay under "Lost Dutchman/Treasure" headings. I bought my copy from someone off of ebay. Keep your eyes open, it will appear there again. The map is also referenced On Doug Stewart's site under his "Maps" section. The map itself is stiff yellow paper and shows various sites in the mountains - including those important to Ward, such as Bambi's Roost. (Who was Bambi? Was she his wife at one time? And when. Ward mentions several "wives" in his book. However, Bambis appears to have been the cutest... ) The map also has pictures on it similar to ones found in Ward's book. Including the "infamous" Miner's Needle / El Sombrero picture. <br> <br>Speaking of which, Ward subsequently changed his mind about the photo being "Miners Needle" after his book was published. A respected Dutch hunter who had been in the area for decades and who knew Tex and Bill Barkley and other ranchers in the area that worked the Superstitions during the supposed 1936 "earthquake" questioned Ward about labeling the peak Miners Needle. After making his case, the bottom line was, Ward made a mistake. The earthquake simply didn't happen. The Dutch hunter knew the people who were there at the time. They rode by Miners Needle on a daily basis. If there was indeed an earthquake knocking off the top half of the "needle" it would have been the most significant and talked about event for decades. It wasn't. Because, it never happened. When the disimilarity of the "foot hill" area of the photo was compared to the real Miners Needle "foot hills" area, Ward had to admit the photo must have been of something else. If one looks in Garman's book, the same photo appears there as well. That is where Ward got it. <br> <br>Ward was a good man. But, like others who dable in the LDM as a hobby, his theories got the best of him.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:45 am

I think we should also remember that at the time he wrote the book, Ward was, I believe, dying of cancer and was heavily drugged. It wouldn't surprise me if a little imagination worked its way into his book. <br>I didn't know Ward - I am, once again, repeating things I have been told by people who know more than me. But it makes sense.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:45 am

S.C., <br>Well, you certainly appeared on the scene all of a sudden as one of the people who evidently knows their stuff! I wonder who you are... Oh well, none of my business. <br>But I've always wondered about Bambi's Roost. Where does the Ward map show it to be? (And you're right about her being the cutest "wife", great picture in front of the book.)

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:46 am

Hiker, <br> <br>Bambi's Roost is up LaBarge Canyon, past Upper LaBarge Box on the East side of Picacho Butte/Coffee Flat Mtn. somewhere near - I believe - the LaBarge Springs No. 2 area and the Red Tanks Divide area - about half way between the two areas along the trail that goes through there. That is the general area as I recall - I do not have the map handy right now. I can confirm that later and post if it turns out to be someplace else. <br> <br>Regarding your other observation... I have posted here before. But I like to keep a low profile - as many here do. So, I haven't really appeared out of no where. <br> <br>Now, whether I know my stuff or not... That is to be seen... I have researched the LDM a lot. So, perhaps I do know a lot of arcane "facts." But, so do many others. Thanks for the good words.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:53 am

Thank you S.C. Very informative stuff. <br> <br>Another very respected source tells me that the 1936 earthquake did indeed topple the top of Miners Needle. My personal opinion leaves me a little leery about such an occurence, and when I next get the chance I was intending on making an on-site comparison of the photo with the real thing. <br> <br>I'll put that map on my "to get" list. Thanks again.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:54 am

OK, that's what Ron said when I asked about Bambi's Roost and Eight o' Spades camp a few weeks ago. But I wasn't sure which one he was talking about. Maybe they're the same place?

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:55 am

Hello Fritski, <br> <br>I'd be most interested in knowing what this additional "respected source" is. <br>Nowhere have I come across any tales, anecdotes, folklore or legends that tell of Miners Needle collapsing in 1936....other than Wards account. <br> <br>The 1930s saw the Superstitions virtually alive with LDM seekers searching for the mine. It was a time of Gassler, Storm, Brownie Holmes, Roy Bradford and a score of permanent camps in the mountains. I find it interesting that none of these chroniclers of their search once mention the collapse of Miners Needle ( or even an earthquake) in '36. <br> <br>In addition, there is a drawing of Miners Needle, purportedly put out in the early 1900s showing it looking very much as it looks today. <br> <br>P

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:55 am

Another place to see more on Bob Ward was on a show about the LDM shown on the Disovery Channel. He gets a lot of time on screen, and shows his Mexican milling area, how to line up markings to find treasure sites, and even a story about one of his wives being shot. I don't know what year this was filmed, but he does kind of come across as a somewhat crazed treasure seeker. <br> <br>I've never seen a bio on Bob Ward. Kind of surprising, since he apparently spent a lot of time searching, and knew lots of people. <br> <br>As far as some of the questions in the original posting, I'd guess that his detailed story on the Peralta massacre is just a narrative woven around the various sites that he found or knew of. (Kind of like Storm, who made every story he related include Tortilla Flat, Black Top, etc.) <br> <br>Isn't the Mineral Mountains that he mentions a reference to Mineral Mountain? (southeast of Florence Junction) <br> <br>The cabin NE of Bluff Springs Mtn has been mentioned elsewhere, I think I saw a reference in Glovers book. <br> <br>Here's my question. In his Peralta massacre story, Ward claims that one group was killed near Castle Rock. Isn't this a reference to Ray Howlands Spanish Graveyard? (mentioned in Kollenborn's chronology as being found in 1932. Also Blair mentions it). Any truth to this story, or details about what the Howlands claimed to have found?

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:55 am

They could be. I do not know about Eight o' Spades Camp. But Bambi's Roost is on his map and basically where I described.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:55 am

Well, here are a few more items I'd like to offer. <br> <br>The Peralta massarce as described by Ward I believe, like senor x, to be a composite of all massarce stories Ward read and were molded to fit his facination with sites on the south of the range. And, he thought there were many around there that were significant. <br> <br>According to his map, Mel's Camp appears to be on the West side of Palomino Mountain - south of Chuck Aylor's Caballo Camp. John Pierce's Camp was in Needle Canyon on the West side of Bluff Spring's Mountain about mid-way between its North and South ends. <br> <br>Regarding the cave Ward mentions in Upper LaBarge Box: I have seen Fritzski's hike showing the cave known as Herman's Cave. Ward has that cave identified in his book in various ways, but I believe he does think it was the "face" or "head" on the Perfil Mapa - he believed it was not a stone head but was a cave in the distance. I have no comment about that, but Herman's Cave is not what he refers to in LaBarge Box. The was an article George Johnston - President of the SMHS - wrote in the 1995 issue of the "Superstition Mountain Journal" (Volume 13) called "Casa Con Caverna." He details a trip he took with Bob Ward and Clay Worst to the cave Ward describes in his book. Both Johnston and Worst seemed facinated by the cave. I guess neither knew it was there - indicating it was hard to find. Perhaps reviewing the article might help in locating this cave.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:56 am

Unless I'm reading it wrong, it was you, Peter(my respected source:), who said it "did indeed collapse" in the very first "reply" to this thread above.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:56 am

LOL <br> <br>I keep forgetting it is hard to denote sarcasm via the written word. <br> <br>I did not literally meant it collapsed...I meant "it collapsed in 1936".....yeah right! <br> <br>Sorry for the confusion. <br> <br>P

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:57 am

I'll have to tell ya Peter, I was kind of wondering for a while there. But coming from you I figured "this guy really knows his stuff - hey, maybe it did topple" :)

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:57 am

Thanks senor x. <br> <br>I'll check my topo for Mineral Mtn in that location, but thats got to be it if you've seen it shown there. <br> <br>I have also heard that the Howland find by Cathedral was nothing but a scam and my recollection may be wrong, but I thought I heard that from Ron.

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