LDM Maps in General

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LDM Maps in General

Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:11 am

Since we have had good give and take on the Stone Maps, I thought I would shift gears a tad and ask opinions about what folks thought about LDM maps in general. <br>They seem to range from the humorous(Julia Thomas map)to the simple (Dick Holmes map) to the dramatic(Barry Storms Hidden Arroyo map) to the confused (Walt Gasslers map given to Richard Peck). <br> <br>My own thoughts are that I beleive there are a very few that might fit the clues as I understand them, but NOTHING I have seen to date tells one where to place a spade in the earth. <br> <br>Any "valid" map might get you into the LDM area, but from then on I feel you are on your own...none of these maps come with instructions once you get up to a particular area... lol

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:12 am

I was wondering if anyone would bring up this subject. I noticed that the "maps" section of this web site allows people to post comments about each map, but so far I haven't seen any postings. <br> <br>I agree with your comment on the limited usefulness of most of the maps. At best, they might get you to a general area, but even then each person would probably interpret it as a completely different area. This is expecially true of some of the maps that just consist of a set of lines and other marks with no text. For example the Ortiz map. I have a hard time figuring out why someone would draw a map in this style; can't see how it would help find anything. <br> <br>Some of them seem to have enough detail that maybe you could track down a more specific area. The Perfil map, for example. At least it seems to be drawn from the vantage point of someone standing in a particular spot. However, if I remember correctly, someone posted on this site that they don't even think that the Perfil map pertains to the Superstitions. <br> <br>I don't think I've seen the Gassler/Peck map that you mention. Was it created after Gassler thought he finally figured out the location in the 1980's?

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:12 am

I posted! I didn't realize you could. <br>I'd like to know about the Gassler/Peck map too.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:12 am

Peter ought to explain the Gassler/Peck map. I know what he means about it being "confused"... <br> <br>Regarding the Perfil Mapa: there have been many that have said it pertains to other areas besides the Superstitions. One is John Victor Ramses who believes the map to indicate the area around Red Mountain north of the Salt River. There are many interpretations I have heard of pointing to areas like Carefree or Goldfield. And other places.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:13 am

The following is the Gassler/Peck map in a nutshell. I will teach you all how to make your own. <br> <br>1) Get yourself a topo map of the Peters Canyon/Peters Mesa area. <br> <br>2) Pick one of those washes NORTH of Pistol Canyon that branch off of Peters Canyon to the west (anyone will do) and outline it. Label THAT wash Pistol Canyon. <br> <br>3) Draw a small circle at the eastern confluence of Gasslers Wash and the western edge of Lost Ridge. Now draw 4 arrows leading out from the circle (north, south, east,west). Write the word MINE? below the circle. (For those of you angry with me for not using the name Peters Dome or Peters Ridge, draw the same circle on the western edge of whatever you like to call it...the midpoint of the ridge works fine for you circle drawers at home). <br> <br>Thats it folks, I kid you not. <br> <br>Was this a map Walt Gassler thought would lead to treasure? Or misinformation? Even in his declining years I doubt Walt would have misplaced Pistol Canyon as badly as he did on this particular map. <br> <br>Walt really did beleive there was a big pit in this vicinity that had been filled in by the Apache. I do not know if there was one there or not, but tend to doubt it.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:13 am

In case someone missed something... Gassler's Wash is also sometimes called Old Squaw Canyon or Squaw Box. And, of course, Lost Ridge is "Peters Dome." The circle marked "MINE" on the map must have the diameter of several city blocks. So, it is not really very revealing. <br> <br>Despite that, the most unusal thing about the map is the gross misplacement of Pistol Canyon.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:13 am

How do you know that Gassler wasn't correct in labeling what he called Pistol Canyon? In other words, what he refers to as Pistol Canyon in his manuscript doesn't correspond to what everyone else calls Pistol Canyon. <br> <br>Seems like there was another example of this sort of thing in Gassler's manuscript. Tex Barkley told him about a cave on Horse Mesa, and he didn't realize until much later that Tex didn't mean the Horse Mesa by the Salt River, but an area on Malapais. <br> <br>While we're on the subject, I wanted to confirm what spots these names refer to. My only reference is Gassler's manuscript and the Carlson/Stewart Hikers Guide. Plus one long hike up to Peter's Mesa a while back. <br> <br>I assume that Carlson shows the correct Pistol Canyon on the Topo in his book. I also assume that Peter's Dome/Lost Ridge is the hill on Peters Mesa just NW of where Peter's Trail turns abruptly from west to southwest (i.e. the hill with the word "Peters" printed on top of it on the topo). <br> <br>For Gassler's Wash/Old Squaw Canyon, I think that it's the wash on Peter's Mesa before it drops off the cliffs into Squaw Canyon. But it looks like there's three washes dropping into Squaw Canyon on the topo (the ones marked with blue lines for water). It's the one that starts by running southerly in parallel with the 3400' countour line, then hooks to the west and drops over the cliff ?

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:14 am

Walt absolutely "knew" where Pistol Canyon was. Some folks who are not familiar with Peters Canyon might think those washes west of Peters Canyon can be labeled "canyons" themselves, but that simply isn't so. <br> <br>As to the whole "Horse Mesa" episode, I think there are several areas that are even today commonly mislabeled. The "Horse Country" for instance. The Horse Country today and the Horse Country of the earlier pioneers and prospectors are not the same area. <br> <br>Anyway to the map. <br> <br>Gasslers Wash that I refer to looks like a "Z". From the center of Lost Ridge (that is Hill 3600)It flows west for a little bit, then south (right thru the box labeled TRIP 38 on pg 211 of Carlson's Hikers Guide), then west again until it drops into Labarge. It is directly north of Hill 3707 (Labeled Black Mountain...but Black Mtn is of course, really CharleyBoy Mtn...this is why things get so screwy in there, everyone has different names for the landmarks). <br> <br>So , yes, your interpretation of the wash is correct. Interesting to note that on the topo map and just west of the 3400 elevation mark is the area Walt said he found charcoal beds, mescal pits, a rock house, and other signs of previous encampments. Whether these were signs of an Indian Camp or dated from Barks or Marlows cowboys, I do not know. <br> <br>Walt thought the mine was in an area just east of the 3390 elevation mark and due south of Carlsons "QQ" on page 211.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:14 am

Thanks for all the details. This is one reason why I love this site - unlike reading a book, you can ask the question "could you be more specific?" <br> <br>I've often wondered whether any of the more recent hunters have confirmed the items that Gassler and others have said they found in this area. Ely also mentions firebeds on the NE corner of Black Mtn. After reading Gassler's manuscript many years back, I made the hike up there thinking that it would be interesting to see what he was describing. Ended up not having much time to hunt around, and I'm not sure what still remains up there to see. I do remember seeing a pile of rocks in Gassler's Wash, but didn't go down to look at them too closely. <br> <br>It seems like the one clue that Gassler wanted to investigate was that he suddenly remembered that there were trees in this area that would grow to a certain height, then fall over. I always thought that he was assuming that the trees had been planted over a site where the dirt was settling, and thus fell over. <br> <br>So...has anyone seen any of these items in more recent days? I always figured that after the Gassler manuscript came out, lots of people were searching all over this area.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:14 am

The grove of trees questions flits thru LDM lore like a ghostly shadow. It has been variously reported as a "laurel grove", a "laurel thicket", an "ironwood grove",a one armed palo-verde tree (yeah right), a group of trees that reside on a hilltop, ridge, mesa, or "high up on a mountainside". <br> <br>Of course there is the Indian story of covering up the mine and planting trees over it, and those trees dying and perhaps being replanted as late as the 1940s. <br> <br>While any of the above may or may not be true, the truth is that vegetation (including trees) is more prone to sprout where the soil has been disturbed. If there was some work done to cover the mine, the darn thing may well have some sort of brush/trees covering it today. Not romantic, this explanation, but maybe closer to the truth...who knows....

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:15 am

Squaw Canyon and Pistol Canyon begin at the same point. Only a saddle and small ridge seperate the heads of these two canyons. I was told once by an old timer that a spring ran out of the northwest side of the Peters Dome and watered a large area at the heads of these two canyons. The area was covered with trees, Mesquite and Laural in the mid to late 1800's. The spring stopped running around the turn of the century and by the 1940's most all the trees were gone except for several thick stands of Laural that still grow there today. Walt Gassler had his camp in one of those Laural groves. It is confusing because there are no oficial names to many places up there. One of the washes on the east side of Malapais was known as "six-shooter canyon". This wash and Pistol Canyon were often confused with one another. A good point was made earlier, if the mine was covered over, the chance of it being grown over with large trees or thick brush is very possible. If your looking for the mine in the open, your probably looking in the wrong place.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:37 am

Gassler may have known just where Pistol Canyon was, but his maps show three different canyons labeled Pistol in his own hand. One on the Peter's side of the north end of Geronimo Head, one where most put it (not far from Squaw) and one on the Peter's side of Peter's Mesa close to where the modern trail cuts across the Mesa.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:37 am

That is correct.
Which is why I dubbed the Gassler Map confused.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:38 am

Are you guys finding a "Pistol Canyon" shown on any official map. I swear I've seen it somewhere before too, but cannot presently find it shown on either the USGS topo or Beartooth maps.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:38 am

The only place I've ever seen Pistol labeled on a map is in the "Hiker's Guide".

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:39 am

Try the original Stirrat map. It is labeled correctly there.

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