Stone Maps

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Stone Maps

Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:25 pm

BACKGROUND: <br>I do not pretend to be an expert on the Stone Maps so I am sure that I will make a mistake here and there which will create a lot of space for discussion. Hopefully, we will get those who know more than us to join in the discussion. <br> <br>Stone Map Description: <br>Heart Map, One half of the required map of the King of Spain of the local area with a location for the heart map to be placed. Backside, There is an outline of a cross. <br> <br>God’s Map, Second half of the local map. Backside, The letters “DON”. <br> <br>Priest Map, Directions in a Spanish code with various signs and symbols. Backside, “el Cobollo” giving directions and possibly additional map layout. <br> <br>Heart Stone, Part of the Heart Map. Backside, Six rectangles. <br> <br>Some people feel the maps were fabricated as a hoax, some by the Peraltas, or finally by the Jesuit Church. A determination of which is required to develop a plan to decipher, this is why I have spent the last several years researching in Mexico and various archives. I have found one source which locates the Stone Maps in a small Mexican Church and now I’m looking for a confirmation. <br> <br>The last that I knew the maps were presently in the Mesa Museum. <br> <br>Maybe this will help to get our discussion started, if they slow down we will go to another level. <br> <br>Comments?????? <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:26 pm

I am interested in what azmula discovered in Mexico. What is it that was found that links the stone maps to a small church in Mexico? This sounds interesting. <br> <br>I understand there are many who believe the maps to be fakes. Let's put that aside and look at this with some open eyes. I personnally what like to know what azmula's theories are even though I have my own opinions. I hope others will let him state his case with out a lot of negativism. <br> <br>So, azmula, please elaborate. You certainly have caught my interest.

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:26 pm

Well, I guess what I would find convincing is any evidence that this type of map was used in Mexico or Spain. I've read Kenworthy's book and others where it is claimed that the symbols used on the stone maps are common ones used in treasure/mining maps, and at least the implication that carving a map into stone like this isn't unique. <br> <br>So, has anyone found other examples of similar maps that were used to record the location of mining claims and/or treasure? Ones made of stone, with various pieces that have to be fit together? Or ones that have a seemingly random jumble of symbols but have actually been shown to have been correctly deciphered? <br>Have any other examples of this type of map making been found?

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:26 pm

There is historical documentation of stone documents/maps in Spanish culture. Parchment was widely used, but parchment burned, and stone impressions lasted forever. Important documents were etched in stone in all early civilizations as a means to preserve prescious documents. Many stone documents/maps exist all over the world and in every culture. The stone maps appear to be not only maps, but coded documents of ownership, description of the items, and how to locate the items. <br>Many known Spanish symbols appear on the tablets, but some are either unknown or have multiple meanings. There is something on one of the maps that unmistakeably places the location in the Superstition Mountains of Arizona. It is the outline of Superstition Mountain as seen from the southeast with the Spanish treasure symbol showing the treasure to be somewhere on the opposite side of the mountain. Has Azmula or anyone else noted this ?

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:26 pm

S.C., <br>I believe that the map set was found in the basement storage of a Mexican Church along with other documents hidden there for protection from Indian destruction. The maps and docs were to be transferred to another location for protection and while enroute the courier was taken ill and died. The maps were stolen and the docs and inventory are still in the town of his death. The maps were taken to El Paso to be sold. <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:27 pm

senor x, <br>Several of these stone maps have been found, normally in Mexican Churches. A couple that were found have led to treasure caches in Texas and New Mexico. The signs and symbols are anything but jumbled. Normally when deciphered the form complete sentences also. <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:28 pm

milt, <br>Many researchers have thought that outline to be the Gila River. If you note coming to Mesa from Florence (the old route from Tucson) you will see the outline from the map on the Superstitions. <br> <br>That map also tells you that the Peralta Canyon is not the entrance into the Superstitions used by the Mexicans / Spaniards. <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:28 pm

Interesting. <br> <br>So, regarding the other issue, if Peralta Canyon is not the entrance into the mountains used by Mexicans, what was according to your interpretation of the map.

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:28 pm

Then how did the maps come from El Paso to be where they are now? You obviously have a lot of information, please enlighten us. This is all very interesting.

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:31 pm

I also beleive that Peralta Canyon was NOT the way the Mexican mining parties entered the mountains. I beleive they would enter either further east or (and I consider this more likely) enter from the First Water area. <br> <br>Having climbed Peralta Canyon a couple of times (and one climbs, one doesnt walk)I think it would have been difficult to do with animals. Course they could have looped around into the Barkley Basin over the eastern ridge there easily enough and gone over Miners Needle Pass too..... Animals could easily negotiate this path (and many still do).

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:31 pm

S.C., <br>I basically have based my assumption on three different points of issue that lead me to that statement. <br> 1. One of the maps identifies a hidden trail on the north side of the Superstition. <br> 2. The Five "random" Cacti point to the Garden Valley, the water and trails there. <br> 3. The Massacre Grounds are on the north side also and was where the Mexicans were trying to break out. <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:32 pm

Thank you Peter for the input. I am sure there are some other opinions out there based on known facts. How about some other opinions? <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:32 pm

I know of a couple of "hidden" trails in the northern Superstitions. Your remark about this is interesting. <br> <br>Dont know about 5 Cacti pointing to Garden Valley, but I beleive the mining parties passed thru this area to arrive at the main camp in Marsh Valley. <br> <br>Not sure if the Mexicans were trying to breakout into the open desert and ended up at the Massacre Grounds or if they were herded there. I beleive their paths to the north and south were blocked by parties of Apache and they could either 1)move east into the heart of the storm or 2) move west and try to break out. I think they chose the latter course, which of course lead into a final confrontation with Yavapais, Pinaleno and Bedonkohe war parties in a wider area than commonly thought..say bordering the Stone Chiefs on the NW, Black Mesa on the east and the cliffs of the main Massif on the west proper.

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:32 pm

S.C., <br>A tourist coming back from El Paso, et al, stopped north of Florence to look at the mountains and found some of the stones partially barried in the desert terrain. He came back the next year and found the remaining maps in the ground. A very good "story". After he died, about 6 years later, his family sold the maps to a group. The Stone Maps were on display in the Mesa Museum the last time I heard anything about their whereabouts. <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:33 pm

It has been mentioned that the wavy line on the lower stone slab/map to be different things. One interpretation is the Gila River. Another is the outline of Superstition Mountain when seen from a certain vantage point. <br> <br>There is also another interpretation I have thought to be interesting. In Barry Storm's 1967 "Chiriaco Summit/Stormjade Books Edition" of his "THUNDER GODS GOLD" he "updates" the book by including an analysis of the stone maps. Storm interprets the line to be the outline of Malapais Mountain.

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:33 pm

So, you assume then that they were not found, but where bought in El Paso? And the discovery "story" was made up to hide the history of the maps?

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:33 pm

I am surprised he didnt interpret it as being Black Top Mesa. <br> <br>Then again I have seen the wavy bottom line interpreted as Queens Creek, the Rio Salado, the Superstition Massif proper, the Rio Grande, etc, etc. <br> <br>Guess thats why I dont put a whole lot of faith in the various maps out there. I think only 2-3 are worth the paper they are written on....and thats from MY OWN interpretation. Plenty of folks would laugh at the maps I think are worthy of study.

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:33 pm

I wouldn't laugh. ;)

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Post by count » Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:34 pm

I'm having a hard time following this but there has to be a point to this conversation as well as the maps themselves. Malapais from a certain angle does look like the wavy line on the stone slab. If the line is Malapais then the mine(s) are in the same vicinity as where Gassler, Ruth and others thought it was. Azmula started this discussion but has only given some obscure statements. The map has to lead someone into some part of the mountains. For my limited knowledge of the maps I believe they could fit the Malapais area. The stone maps have some confusing symbols but a lot of those maps are pretty basic. Does anyone else have an opinion on where the map leads you ? Azmula ?

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:41 am

S.C., <br>I can not say without question what the exact history is at the present time. I am working to determine the history from "south of the border" presently. But you have the information I have to date. <br> <br>azmula

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:41 am

I have seen various interpretations of the Stone Maps lead one to: Upper LaBarge, Music Mtn, Red Tanks Canyon, <br>Tortilla Mtn, Black Top Mesa, Goldfield, Santa Fe New Mexico, Casa Grande and other points of interest. <br>I guess adding Malapais to the list wont have anyone climbing up ole' Black Mountain anytime soon. <br> <br>As to Gassler and Ruth, I am not too certain how interested in Malapais Walt was. I beleive he thought a mine was on Peters Mesa proper, near the confluence of Lost Ridge and Gasslers Wash. As to Ruth...who knows....but I doubt he was anywhere near the Mesa when he died.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:42 am

Not to put a negative thought out there , but a different one. Did anyone hear that they may have been used originally as part of the Baron of Arizona's scheme? They certainly could of been planted to prove land grant possession in Arizona during that time. I spent a few years off and on following the rock maps and there are some interesting things about them, such as coming from Florence toward the mountain the Needle takes on a curious shape. It starts to look like it tilts to take on the form of a heart. If you contend that the line you discussed is the Gila and continue in that direction of travel you will see other things that resemble possible mountains on the maps. To me , if there is anything to them, I believe the goal is to take one to the Needle. Why not use the most prominant thing as a destination for whatever. Again if at all true maybe the Needle was used as a hiding place; however I've heard many deciperings of them , mostly ranging from pretty nuts to in left field. My personal belief now is that they are a farce. By the way , after their discovery they were purchased by the Moal Corp,and I think then the Flagg Foundation acquired them and put them on loan to the Mesa Musuem.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:42 am

Hi Ron, <br> <br>You are correct about the Moel Corp, A.L. Flagg Foundation link. There was some litigation involved and the court ordered that the Stone Maps be handed over to a non-profit, "mineral " oriented organization. As a result the A.L. Flagg Foundation received the maps. They in turn loaned them to the Mesa Museum where they still are on display. <br> <br>I have to agree with your own conclusions about the validity of these particular Stone Maps. Perhaps we are wrong, but I doubt they will lead anyone somewhere over the rainbow. <br> <br>P

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:42 am

It seems to me if Reavis had created the maps as part of his scheme, he would have coughed them up at some point in the proceedings, or at least made reference to them. He did make reference to some documents he had tried to plant in Mexico, but which never made it there and were subsequently discovered in an old church sometime in (I think) the 1970's. (I'm not looking at the newspaper article so I'm hazy on the dates). <br>So I would think that some mention would have been made of the stone maps. <br>My understanding is also that when they were found, a part of one was sticking out of the ground and showed considerable weathering compared to the buried ones, which suggests they had been buried like that for some time. <br> <br>What's my point? Just this: I'm not convinced of the authenticity of the maps, but I don't see an easy way to dismiss them.

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Post by count » Tue Jun 04, 2002 6:43 am

Why "God's map"? I never heard that name before. <br>Don't the six rectangles on the heart stone, when lined up with the "1" on the stone it fits into, make 1,000,000? I forget, does the heart fit in either way? <br>Also what about the dagger with the "D"? That "D" also crops up on the Perfil mapa, and there's a big "D" in the side of a mountain, I think Bluff Springs mountain, according to Kenworthy. I wish I had my book here so I could quote more accurately!

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