Which Lost Dutchman Mine?

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Which Lost Dutchman Mine?

Post by count »

It seems that there are two different descriptions of the former mine of Jacob Waltz given in written accounts. There is the large open pit/funnel shaped mine with a pole in the middle from which hung a chain. This description is given (with variations) by Ely, Bark and Gassler. Sometimes this description has a tunnel below, sometimes not. <br> <br>The other description is one of a small shaft with a tunnel below. John D. Mitchell and Brownie Holmes (among others) give this description. <br> <br>Which is the real Lost Dutchman Mine?
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Post by count »

I think there are as many descriptions of the immediate locality of the LDM as there are descriptions of the matix of the ore. <br> <br>The broad consensus seems to point to a very rough area with a tunnel cut into a mountainside with one or two shafts above the tunnel working. <br> <br>I too have been interested by the pole and chain story, but feel this might also refer to an arrastra which may or may not have been in the LDM vicinity. <br>I beleive Gassler was just repeating the original Bark Notes story in his own manuscript refering to the pole and chain tale.
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Post by count »

A lot of the confusion, I feel, originates from "who heard what when..." <br> <br>I believe Bark and Ely wrote - and interpreted to be fact - things based on the distorted version of events and details "remembered" by Thomas and Petrasch. Waltz could have said so much over the course of several months that one story blended with another. By the time it was all said and done, the "facts" were far removed from reality. One pit became two - and the description of a nearby arrastra blended with the description of the mine/pit itself. <br> <br>The Holmes version has the benefit of being based on a single event - a final recounting (deathbed "confession") of the story. Thus, it is different than "fermented details" of other versions. Hence, one pit. Mainly, because - perhaps - that was all there was... <br> <br>However... then, we have the tunnel... But, was there a tunnel??? Or did Thomas and Petrasch misunderstand Waltz's references to a cave or something - and misinterpreted it as a man-made "tunnel" trying to cut into the vein? Maybe he was referring to a cave he used for shelter - not one that necessarily was related to the mine/pit. Anything is possible... <br> <br>(i.e., In Waltz's Prescott days Indian attacks were so feared there were the "famous" petitions to the Governor for protection. Could Waltz have been telling Thomas and Petrasch stories related to those events - the Prescott Indian attacks - and they later - through the distortions of time - became the basis of the story of Waltz and his "partner" being attached at the mine in the Superstitions???? Correspondingly, how much became confused - not just by Thomas and Petrasch - but by the recorders of that information? People such as Ely, Bark, and Mitchell. Maybe they misunderstood Thomas and Petrasch as much as they did Waltz... Hence we have all these things that have lives of their own that never existed in the first place... ) <br> <br>It is interesting to speculate what was really said... But, it is - after all - just speculation...
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Post by count »

I agree with you 100%. After all this time who really knows what's true and what has been embellished in the re-telling over the years. <br> <br>Knowing what I do about the way the Mexicans mined in the area, I'd be quite surprised if there WASNT some sort of tunnel or crosscut below the shaft(s)? area. <br> <br>I am sure you are also aware that there are other odds and ends out there related to the Holmes story other than Brownies "manuscript". I have seen references to a "north facing" tunnel in at least two places. Whether these are valid or not I can not say, but the references are out there.
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Post by count »

Well, do not get me wrong. I absolutely believe there WAS a tunnel involved. I just point that out as a possibility - as an example of how the truth could be distorted. <br> <br>You are correct about the other references indicating a tunnel connected with the mine. Those are indeed very compelling in themselves. In fact, more so than the standard versions of the LDM tale itself. Now... whether the tunnel faces north... Well... That is debatable... <br> <br>S.C.
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Post by count »

According to other details and the stone maps the tunnel should be facing southwest. <br> <br>azmula
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Post by count »

Could you elaborate a little on the "other details", and also, the stone maps showing the tunnel facing SW is intriguing. Can you explain a little about that theory. I have been interested in the stone maps for years but have been unable to make much sense of them.
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Post by count »

Other Details: (clues) <br> 1. North Trending canyon <br> 2. Canyon would be NW-SE <br> 3. From above mine pit <br> 4. Four Peaks to the North <br> 5. "A" needle peak to the South <br> 6. Setting sun shines in mine <br> 7. Mine operated during winter, sun is in the southern sky. <br> <br>It may not sound like much but when I drew it out it worked for me. I'm open to a more logical interpretation? <br> <br>As far as the stone maps go, this forum does not seem interested, therefore, I wont waste space. If you would like to discuss my email is listed. <br> <br>azmula
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Post by count »

I'll give you clues 1 and 7. Not too sure about the rest. <br> <br>#6 seems particuarly dubious to me ( I rank this up there with the Weavers Needle at 4 o'clock clue...of course other folks might say the same about ALL the clues you listed there). <br> <br>I have researched this clue some. "Mine" have been variously interpreted to also mean cave (the cave he and his "partner" quartered in), tunnel or gold. This , of course, means that the "pit" or tunnel can in fact be located in any compass direction from the setting sun.
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Post by count »

Peter, <br>I understand your tendancy to question the accuracy of the info I put forth, that is OK. We all have our own opinions and we hone those opinions when we air them for the critique of others. If we all agreed with each other's hypotheses then we would be stumbling over each other in our searches in the mountains. <br> <br>At one time I thought there were about 19 "clues" which were tossed around purported to be from Waltz. Does anyone remember what they were? Which ones do we question, assuming they were from Waltz to begin with? <br> <br>Also assuming that you have proven to yourself the old miners did use "mine and cave" interchangeably, which you believe in, a tunnel or pit, will make my hypothesis more or less credible. <br> <br>One thing for certain we will not stumble over each other in the Superstitions. <br> <br>azmula
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Post by count »

In my business a saying goes "two opinions make a market". That goes for <br>soybeans, cattle, pork bellies, currencies AND LDM clues it seems...lol. <br> <br>Not sure if the old miners used "mine" and "cave" interchangably. IMHO in this instance they refer to two different animals. <br> <br>Clues from Waltz off the top of my head <br>include a north running canyon, two (maybe 3) caves, a rock house, one had to climb up to see a (the?) needle....etc. <br> <br>It seems to me there are 3 different types of Waltz clues. Those that originated from the Petrasch camp, those that came from Holmes and those that seemed to come from the yarn spinners such as Arnold and Storm. <br> <br>Wading through the morass of clues can be tiresome, but rewarding. I have, for instance, several notebooks full of clues from various sources. Over the last few days I went through a few pages of one old timers account and pulled 9 different clues out of it. Some of them jive with other accounts of the same area, some dont, but it is interesting to see where the various clues lead.
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Post by count »

Azmula, <br>I don't agree that no one here is interested in the stone maps. "Talon" made some cryptic postings a while ago, but never answered any requests for subsequent discussion. I'd certainly like to talk stone maps with you. I have no theories, I'm still trying to decide if they're real! But if you have some ideas or info you'd like to share about them, I for one am completely open to new ideas. One thing is sure: Bob Ward, "Travis Marlowe", and a lot of other people have taken them seriously and have followed them to one thing or another.
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Post by count »

I am also interested in what you have to say about the stone maps. I too am trying to decide whether they mean anything or not.
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Post by count »

I'd like to know more about the stone maps also. I have heard that stone maps were kept in the churches in the early days as a master to copies made on parchment. The stone maps found in Arizona are said to be stolen from a church in Arizpe or Cumpas, Sonora. I would like to find out if stories like this have any factual base to them. The stone maps found in Arizona bear the same resemblance to other stone maps down in Mexico. So maybe there is some basis for them being real.
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Post by count »

I am glad to here there is some interest in one of my pet projects. I do not have a lot of knowledge on the subject but maybe we can help each other to understand the facts and maybe decide their authenticity. <br> <br>I will post a brief history of what I know from my travels in Mexico and research here in the US over the weekend. Maybe if someone has any questions or input before that you will kindly post them and we can discuss. <br> <br>azmula
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Post by count »

Please do so. I'm sure there are people who look forward to the post.
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