Yellow Jackets

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klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Mr. Ribaudo

Hardaker`s work, "The First American", is a wonderful read. For me the only real similiarity between the artifacts discovered at Vaseqillo Reservoir and the Calalus artifacts discovered on Silverball Road is that both discoveries illustrates vividly the asses that were in leadership positions in both Mexico and the United States in the Archeaology community at the time. Mr. Hardaker does a marvelous job at poking fun at those folks in a rather humorous way. Good for him.

Having said that I have a lot of respect for Archeologists. My father once knew a wonderful lady who was involved in both the Vasequillo discoveries and the library of Oz. Intelligent beyond belief and if I had a broken a leg in the Sierra during a snow storm not only would she have dragged me all the way from the crest to Downieville, California but would have set my leg and prepared a fine meal and probably killed a few mountain lions on the way.

Joe, my associates and I are just simply not interested in posting anymore. The discussions are simply too hateful and mean spirited. Having said that I will share some thing`s you might find helpful in your understanding of the trail maps.

1. The Trail Maps are all about Oz.
2. The creator of the Trail Maps was clever but not the most accurate person.
3. The trail maps were copied from the Maps in Oz. There is a lot of grafetti and other nonsense that has been added by later folks.
4. The two trail maps in the public domain although not totally accurate will lead one to the end of the trail. To understand this you have to understand the folks that did this entered the range from one direction but exited in another.
5. Your interpretation of the maps is accurate but require two additional maps to get you to the end of the trail. The reason for this is embetted in point 4.
6. The end of the trail is as obvious as it is simple. It appears only briefly as you look at the maps but disappears as you mind places paradigms on what you see in an effort to understand them. It is your understanding that fails you it is not your perception.

Really nothing else to say. Can you believe that this is post number 1000 of this thread. Indeed this website is as much a part of the library of Oz as the real location.

Anyway good luck to you and you might want to tell Roy that handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500 is not going to accomplish anything.

Seriously we will not return.

Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
Anyway good luck to you and you might want to tell Roy that handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500 is not going to accomplish anything.
I did not re-post your entire message there amigo, but "hateful" and "mean spirited"? Really? Where? Simply because some of us do not believe the stories you and your associates have spun? Quite a tale, worthy of the annual Pegleg competition. I merely suggested to you a good way to wrap things up, rather than the cloak-and-dagger illegal activities you were praising in high terms.

No comment on Bicknell's article either? I half-expected that it too would soon be blended into the whole Calalus-Oz story. Did he simply make it all up?

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

"Joe, my associates and I are just simply not interested in posting anymore. The discussions are simply too hateful and mean spirited."

In my experience, most heated debates end with the looser feeling that the winners were "hateful and mean spirited".

Your bringing "The First American" into the conversation was a serious mistake. I did not find it as interesting as you did, because I knew the other side of the story. IMHO, Mr. Hardaker's photocopies of other people's work seemed a bit amateurish, and seemed to make up the bulk of his book.

Here is where Valsequillo and Calalus run parallel courses: The major artifact(s) were discovered by non-professionals and both were lost to the public/peer review. Both discoveries were examined by well respected professionals, and not accepted as legitimate, at least as presented. Both discoveries had Cyclone Covey involved, somewhat, peripherally. Professor Covey had a penchant for a "new" history
Of early colonization of the Americas.

While pre-Clovis is popular with many archaeologists, trying to make their bones......so to speak, only one site has been accepted as
Pre-Clovis, despite many claims, by the archaeological community.

Now let me recommend a book for you to read: "First Peoples In A New World" by Professor David J. Meltzer. Another of his books which is, somewhat, on subject is "Folsom". "First Peoples....." should help to open your eyes to why "pre-Clovis" is such a hard nut to crack.
While they were wrong on a number of things, people like Holmes and Hrdlicka were right to set the bar so high for pre-Clovis sites.

People like Roy and myself are doing the same thing here, in a much less important debate, trying to poke holes in a story that would make a good spaghetti strainer. Like the Calalus story, you are too close to your OZ tale to see the many holes in your "facts".

I can understand why you would sulk out of here because we have failed to bow down to your OZ "Golden Idol", but we are not the ones making extraordinary claims, and you know what they say about that.

Best of luck,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

Now that Ben has, unfortunately, left the building.....so to speak, it looks like any serious discussion on these subjects are being left to the OZ/Calalus doubters, that being you and I. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure you believe in pre-Clovis colonization of the Americas.

As far as I know Monte Verde is the only widely accepted pre-Clovis site. Actually I believe there must be others, just haven't seen any evidence to bet the house on.....yet. Due to the nomadic nature of those early people, it may never come. Talk about looking for a needle in a haystack!

Hope you are both doing well and the pup's are fat and sassy.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Hi Joe,

I hope all is well with you folks. The good weather had kept us fairly busy, so I can't even whine about the weather this time!

My apologies if I drove off Ben, had no intention of that. I fear that I am very much not up to date on the state of research on pre-Clovis, thought that Cactus Hill (VA) was the only "proven" site and that Monte Verde was still considered not, which shows how little I know. Even Cactus Hill has some who denounce it as contaminated or disturbed though.

Here is one I ran across that looks to turn the dates back considerably farther:
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpr ... -americas/

At 48,000 to 32,000 years ago the theory (presented) is of a colonization from Africa rather than Asia or Europe.

Your point about how difficult it will be to find those first colonists if only too true; for unless they were big game hunters or remained in one place for a long time, something that would leave enough traces in other words, it will be pure luck to find them. I did hear that the extremely ancient human footprints found in volcanic ash in Mexico were now considered to be much younger, that had me wondering.

A side thing here but recently I read theories that Neanderthals were sailing across the Mediterranean, which raises more questions for me; for if this were true, why are there no Neanderthal sites in N. Africa? Seems the logical ending point for sailing in that place; and to extrapolate, if they put to sea in the Atlantic (no evidence they did) a crossing of the Atlantic would certainly be possible just due to oceanic currents and prevailing winds. No Mousterian tools found in N. America as far as I know, but then would such a find get the quiet treatment? I know that in many 'digs' when artifacts or relics turn up that do not fit the expected results, in the past such items could end up on the local landfill. This Neanderthal bit puzzles me for their subsistence prey are (were) found in the Americas, and we had that handy land-bridge, what prevented them from following their game herds right across? Just speculating.

Take it easy Joe and I hope you have a very pleasant evening,
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy, Hello Joe,

Let`s see. Joe wants to have a debate regarding Oz and Calalus and laments that positive proof of their existence has not been presented. Once proof is presented Roy wants to put everyone in jail. :D

Seems to me a dialogue that is inherently mean spirited and hateful.

The Trail Maps

I would think that after what klondike posted regarding the maps that a blind man with a cane could be dropped off on Tortilla Mountain and he could find the end of the trail without a seeing eye dog.

On a final note regarding the maps there is one thing that has confused me for years. It might be something you folks may want to consider. Maybe not. While it is true that the trail maps will take you to the end of the trail there are major differences between the maps that were left in Joe`s monuments and the trail maps in the public view. The maps in my garden have a far more ancient feel and have many more likenesses to the trails on the map room of Oz than the trail maps.

I suspect that the trail maps are a copy of a more ancient set of maps that is either lost or being held by someone. If this is the case I have a strong suspicion of who has them. The basis of my position is that we know from our own historical sources that when Coronado visited the range he had church representatives with him that had their own maps. Could they have had the original trail maps? I suspect they did. When they could not figure out the maps because of a trick the creator installed in them :D the original maps were returned to Europe and well after that who knows.

Anyway I would also like to say goodbye and wish you folks the best. I have to say that in spite of some of the insanity that seems to percolate here I have enjoyed the dialogues.

Joe,

Klondikes clues will take you to the end of the trail just don`t make the same mistake that has been made by Coronado and countless others over many, many years.

Take Care,

Ben
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

You have had a long run here. Along the way, there have been many periods of head-nodding. On the other hand, there have been some serious refutations of your many "facts". I don't know what you were expecting, but it's not a teacher student, university type of relationship on this site.

I doubt anyone really wants to see you go, as you have always made us think and do further research. We have always maintained that there is a chance your stories have some merit, but it's hard to believe that anyone accepts them as fact.

At least this has been a place for you to present your story and see what, I believe, the public response will be. I'm sure you already know what the professional response might look like.

Good luck and take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Ben wrote
Once proof is presented Roy wants to put everyone in jail.
Well I have never heard of anyone being arrested for a fictional event so this point is rather uncertain. Then too, even if the story of the theft and smuggling were true, there are statutory limits on such things. :mrgreen: Sorry but I simply don't believe the story. :cry:

Are you considering putting all of this into book form? Just curious, but expect that it would sell very well.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

I don't usually purchase fictional books, but.......I would be a buyer!

Damn fine tale! Kind of reminds me of the story I put together over on TNet. :lol:

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Joe you may have missed your calling, if that story can be our guide! The blend of real persons and events with fiction make for a most compelling story. I hope you will consider (or reconsider) writing a book. Just so long as you do not follow the pattern of some fellows!

What is striking about this whole Oz/Calalus story (for me) is that right in Tucson valley there really was a large ancient city of sophisticated people, up to 50,000 inhabitants by one estimate, that had built over 300 miles of irrigation canals and all without even a draft horse or ox to help with the massive labor. I don't have any estimates on the Phoenix valley Hohokam but they were certainly living and thriving there. Did they have contact with wandering Byzantine or Roman-Jewish-Samaritans? I don't see any evidence (so far) but could not say it would be impossible. In fact I am convinced that several crossings occurred in ancient times, most likely accidental just as Pedro Cabral happened on Brazil. There certainly are mysterious ruins (as at Circlestone) to suggest some unknown people were present. Arizona and the southwest for that matter are filled with mysteries great and small.

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by djui5 »

Ben has been "leaving" for over a year now. I don't think he'll stay away until after I find OZ.
Randy Wright
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

djui5 wrote:Ben has been "leaving" for over a year now. I don't think he'll stay away until after I find OZ.
8O 8O 8O 8O

I do hope you will take a photo or two? Thank you in advance, and I hope all is well with you amigo!
Roy ~ Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

I believe the jury is still out on the Pedra Furada Rock Shelter, even though those who are working the site are more than convinced of it's age. That is the usual case in the archaeological world.

One of the problems, is the good possibility that the artifacts (chipped stones) could be from natural causes. A good case is presented for that theory by David Meltzer, who is mentioned
in your link. That can be found on pages 113-117 of his book, "First Peoples In A New World..."

Mr. Meltzer, along with James Adovasio and Tom Dillehay, two very well known archaeologist, visited the site, by invitation, in 1993. All three raised questions about the conclusions that
had been reached by those excavating the site.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by djui5 »

I'm doing better, thanks Roy.
Randy Wright
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Randy,

You understand a lot more than you know. :D Posting here has been like trying to herd cats. Or as Late once said you can lead them to water but you cannot make them drink.

My bags have been packed for a long, long time.

I wish you only the best in your journey, be safe and perhaps find someone you can trust to share the end of the trail.

I would like to share with you one final clue. The trail maps are like a jigsaw puzzle with a trick. Imagine a jigsaw puzzle that you assemble and the final image not only reflects the picture on the box but also resembles an external reality let`s say a bridge. When one puts together the jigsaw puzzle that ends in little boulder canyon there is a complete set of images. The completed puzzle, the picture on the box and their source in the outside world. Now you only need two more maps.

The second solution only requires the two trail maps in the public view. This puzzle is different. In putting the puzzle together, the correct solution reflects an external reality but it contradicts the picture on the box and contradicts how intuitively you believe the puzzle should be put together. Without knowing what is going on or breaking through the paradigms that people bring to the maps the most simple solution is unseeable. But once it is seen the solution is simple with the entire maps lining up to known markers in the range and the end of the trail can be gotten to in a very short period of time.

The first step to seeing this solution is understanding what Late meant when he said you can lead them to water but you cannot make them drink. Who was Late talking about and why? Perhaps the creator of the maps was leading you to water. Late presented the solution to the trail maps in one of his first posts. It was a gift. Too bad it was not appreciated.

Anyway did not intend to post again so this is the last one.

Take Care and God Bless.

Ben
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by djui5 »

God Bless
Randy Wright
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

"You understand a lot more than you know. Posting here has been like trying to herd cats. Or as Late once said you can lead them to water but you cannot make them drink."

You must be a big city boy........Put a couple of sardine's in that water. :lol: You've painted some pretty pictures of water, but left out the sardine's. 8O

Take care,

Joe....Cat Wrangler, Extroidinair :)
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Randy,

It's good to know that someone understands Ben. If you have the time, perhaps you could explain his last post. :?

It seems he went from just being mysterious, to a full fledged version of "The Riddler".
Puzzle me this Batman.....

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by djui5 »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Randy,

It's good to know that someone understands Ben. If you have the time, perhaps you could explain his last post. :?
His last post is exactly what it is. Clues to solving the stone map mystery. They're plain as day. Figuring it out and hitting the mountains is a different story.
Randy Wright
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Randy,

Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, are you saying this is "plain as day"?

"I would like to share with you one final clue. The trail maps are like a jigsaw puzzle with a trick. Imagine a jigsaw puzzle that you assemble and the final image not only reflects the picture on the box but also resembles an external reality let`s say a bridge. When one puts together the jigsaw puzzle that ends in little boulder canyon there is a complete set of images. The completed puzzle, the picture on the box and their source in the outside world. Now you only need two more maps."

Just out of curiosity, have you been to the heart in Little Boulder Canyon and seen the substance "they" claimed is there. It is said to match the substance found on the Calalus artifacts.

I must confess that Ben's post may be clear to most people. My thinking is impaired by a slight case of Dandy Walker Variaint. :(

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by djui5 »

I'm not saying the solution is plain as day, I am saying his post context is plain as day, as in there isn't a hidden meaning behind the post. He posted clues to help someone figure out the stone maps. Reading the post and knowing the post is about clues to the stone maps resolution is what is plain as day. Figuring out exactly what the solution is would be quite challenging.

That's my take on it.
Randy Wright
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Randy,

One might say the solution is as simple as a Black Cross, a Horse, and Coronado.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

May the Stars keep you safe.

Klondike.

Hello Paul,

Mr. B is out of pocket for a while. He said to let you know everything is safe. Something about not being able to find Gold in Fort Knox.

May the stars keep you safe and have a wonderful holiday season.

Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

klondike wrote:Never ate a turtle. Who knows might be a good catch.

Anyone ever find out if the lizard men's cave system was ever found. Understand they have been kidnapping women from the Phoenix area for many years in hopes of breeding a super race.

Suspect their entrance shafts are in the Roger`s Canyon area. That would explain who took the gold out of LDM 14.

On a serious note I was thinking recently what a fine man Bill 7/11 was. He did a lot of good in those mountains, and he didn't even have to be there to do it.


Klondike
Ben,

That's a very true statement. On the other hand, I believe Bill is rolling around on the clouds laughing his burro off at your praise.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Mr. Ribaudo,

Are you now communicating with folks on the other side? Understand it takes a special gift to carry on such conversations. We can agree on one thing that is Bill was a fine person and perhaps his range of relationships exceeds what you believe.

On another subject the debate of whether or not the pit mine in Roger`s Canyon is the LDM really points out the craziness of all of this. The ore that was tested at the University came from a played out drift mine in Pistol Canyon. Believe there is a picture of it somewhere out there. Perhaps in a book that all of you folks discount too much. The mine pinches out as the result of a fault zone at depth and who knows where one would pick it up. By the way it is a epithermal deposit. Can`t remember any mesothermal quartz in there but who knows. :D

Was going through my collection of photographs taken at Circlestone lately and have to admit have often wondered why folks have not spent more time looking at Circlestone as part of a system of observatories instead of a stand along entity. The observatory on Tortilla Mountain and some things in Casa Grande and the Castle will lead you through several gates. Guess it is all a maze.

Good luck to you and yours.

Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

klondike wrote:Mr. Ribaudo,

Are you now communicating with folks on the other side? Understand it takes a special gift to carry on such conversations. We can agree on one thing that is Bill was a fine person and perhaps his range of relationships exceeds what you believe.

On another subject the debate of whether or not the pit mine in Roger`s Canyon is the LDM really points out the craziness of all of this. The ore that was tested at the University came from a played out drift mine in Pistol Canyon. Believe there is a picture of it somewhere out there. Perhaps in a book that all of you folks discount too much. The mine pinches out as the result of a fault zone at depth and who knows where one would pick it up. By the way it is a epithermal deposit. Can`t remember any mesothermal quartz in there but who knows. :D

Was going through my collection of photographs taken at Circlestone lately and have to admit have often wondered why folks have not spent more time looking at Circlestone as part of a system of observatories instead of a stand along entity. The observatory on Tortilla Mountain and some things in Casa Grande and the Castle will lead you through several gates. Guess it is all a maze.

Good luck to you and yours.

Klondike
Ben,

Things getting a little boring at the university?

Your post is a little mundane, considering some of the tales you have created in the past. I much prefer the gatekeepers in Wonderland genre. Surely that story has not come to its final chapter.......yet.

I believe I know all there is to know about Bill. Have you talked to his brother?

Thanks for the post and take care,

Joe
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