Greetings,
I am breaking my word to reply again, just rather astonished at the latest turns of this story. "You folks got a bible out of all this." Right, and you have presented zero evidence to support that contention, as with so many previous points. Klondike or whoever you really are, you have described a mythical place and a case of theft of priceless antiquities, illegal international smuggling and deception, as if it were something we all ought to admire. I do get a reaction to your statements but it is quite the opposite, for if your stories have any truth in them at all, it is a string of crimes that ought to be investigated and prosecuted. There are laws about such things as you have described, and even laws about aiding and abetting crimes, even after the fact - making you a possible accessory to several felonies.
If I were you and your stories are true, then I would be contacting the authorities at the earliest opportunity and informing them of everything I know of that operation. You say you want to protect these "holy" things yet have revealed their existence to the public as well as telling the general route of the thieves in their getaway. I hope you got paid well for your part, for this could end in a bad way for you.
I thought Joe had struck a nerve there when he brought up the issue of the language used in this "library of Oz" as there is no record of any Atlantian written language, in fact there is no evidence that Atlantis had a written language at all. Writing of the period of Atlantis was of the most rudimentary kind, pictures painted or carved in cave walls. If the books were really written in Atlantian, then no one alive could possibly read them. But you have said there is a sort of "Rosetta stone" in the mix too, which alone would be a priceless antiquity to all of mankind, not just to your select private club. To illustrate a parallel, what if someone had simply stolen the Qumran scrolls and spirited them away to Iceland, where a group of neo-monastic types kept them in their own private possession. We would see that as a major crime and would pursue those thieves.
I wish you luck in this story as I am fairly convinced your whole effort has been to confuse, baffle and mislead any and all whom would read your posts. The only one that appears to have been affected however is whoever is posting your posts, for no one seems to be buying this stuff. I hope that you will choose to do the right thing if your story is true at all, and contact the proper federal authorities at once.
My apologies if anything I said is offensive, and for breaking my word to keep silent to you Klondike; no offense was intended; I think it is high time that you re-examine this whole story and your part in it.
Oroblanco
Yellow Jackets
Re: Yellow Jackets
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Hi Roy,
Hope all is well with you, Beth and the pups.
These sites have always been a place for folks who have ideas of writing a book to float those ideas and "facts" in and effort to lend familiarity to there story, if and when it's finally published.
I've suspected that with Ben almost from the start when he posted as Late49er. It soon became evident that his effort was some kind of a continuation of the Calalus fiction.
Ben is a highly intelligent individual who has the ability to pull in diverse historical and archaeological facts to bolster his story here. His latest efforts have brought in the Valsequillo Reservoir "finds" to give some parallel credence to Calalus. While some of the circumstances in the two stories do exist, the archaeological evidence is not close.
I have a number of books that discuss Valsequillo, and have followed the story for awhile, but not recently. At this point, I have no idea what is taking place down there. Last I read, there is no consensus of opinions.
On the other hand, Calalus has been a dead issue for quite awhile.
Take care,
Joe
Hope all is well with you, Beth and the pups.
These sites have always been a place for folks who have ideas of writing a book to float those ideas and "facts" in and effort to lend familiarity to there story, if and when it's finally published.
I've suspected that with Ben almost from the start when he posted as Late49er. It soon became evident that his effort was some kind of a continuation of the Calalus fiction.
Ben is a highly intelligent individual who has the ability to pull in diverse historical and archaeological facts to bolster his story here. His latest efforts have brought in the Valsequillo Reservoir "finds" to give some parallel credence to Calalus. While some of the circumstances in the two stories do exist, the archaeological evidence is not close.
I have a number of books that discuss Valsequillo, and have followed the story for awhile, but not recently. At this point, I have no idea what is taking place down there. Last I read, there is no consensus of opinions.
On the other hand, Calalus has been a dead issue for quite awhile.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hi Joe,
All is well here, in fact much better than expected in so far as weather has been concerned. I hope all is well with you folks - and please give an extra snack to Smoky?
I am well aware that Ben/Klondike/Late 49er/Starman/Peter is highly intelligent and has presented many interesting historical and ahistorical facts into the discussion. As to his real name and exactly how many personalities are really living in the same body, he did state at one point that
I have no belief in his story as presented, and in general, usually there is little harm in spinning a fantasy story, but Klondike aka multiple ID'es presented a case that if it were true, is a string of crimes. Would we want to keep engaging someone who claimed to have committed a murder and kidnapping? If it were false then there is no harm, but if true then it is a form of tacit approval. Klondike/Late/Ben/Starman/Peter et al have not told a story of that magnitude but is describing felonies and clearly saying he approves of the acts. The attempts to mislead others to go hiking into areas that are at minimum slightly dangerous and difficult, to see "battlefields" and "ruins" are less offensive but still could entice someone to get into great difficulties or injured, lost etc. The Fish Creek canyon example comes to mind as an example of this, which is a fairly difficult hike (at least it is for me) and zero evidence of any mass battle apparent. He or she or they may make assertions that I simply failed to see any, which would be to assume that I do not look things over pretty carefully and is very mistaken. I was a bit offended at his statement that I was really there looking for evidence of Atlantis or some other kind of treasures, which was utterly false as I was looking for evidence of a missing person and had no treasure hunting equipment of any kind with me, unless a camera and dog is considered treasure hunting equipment.
Klondike or whoever that person(s) really is or are, has had quite a run on this and if you wish to continue the "debate" (a totally one sided discussion for I have never seen Klondike change a position in the slightest due to any amount of fact that you or anyone else has presented to him or them) I have no intention of stopping or hindering you, I am simply telling him or her or them that it would be healthy and wise to re-examine his/her/their part in this farce. If the stories have been truth, then crimes have been committed and something needs to be done about it, if they are false then that ought to be made clear.
I won't keep pestering Klondike et al about this, but retain the right to post if I see him again telling 'the public' to go a-scampering about on Coronado Mesa or any other potentially dangerous area. Let us not wink and nod when such suggestions are proposed for this is very far from a private discussion and someone may just take Klondike et al seriously.
I am not angry with Klondike et al, just disgusted and repelled by his story and attitude. I just hope that he or she or they will do the right thing at some point. There is such a thing as carrying a spoof too far.
Take it easy Joe, I hope you are enjoying a most pleasant spring and I look forward to seeing you in the future.
Roy ~ Oroblanco <sorry I don't have five or six alternate identities
>
All is well here, in fact much better than expected in so far as weather has been concerned. I hope all is well with you folks - and please give an extra snack to Smoky?
I am well aware that Ben/Klondike/Late 49er/Starman/Peter is highly intelligent and has presented many interesting historical and ahistorical facts into the discussion. As to his real name and exactly how many personalities are really living in the same body, he did state at one point that
and it is quite possible that Ben Davis is his real name but thanks to the many posts and many identities assumed or real, we can not know for sure. It fits the pattern of diversion and diffusion this poster has followed from when he or she first jumped into the Calalus discussion back in 2010, or even earlier but that was the first I read of his or her posts along these lines. I have had conversation with him or them here for over a year at least.My real name is Peter. I am not a local.
I have no belief in his story as presented, and in general, usually there is little harm in spinning a fantasy story, but Klondike aka multiple ID'es presented a case that if it were true, is a string of crimes. Would we want to keep engaging someone who claimed to have committed a murder and kidnapping? If it were false then there is no harm, but if true then it is a form of tacit approval. Klondike/Late/Ben/Starman/Peter et al have not told a story of that magnitude but is describing felonies and clearly saying he approves of the acts. The attempts to mislead others to go hiking into areas that are at minimum slightly dangerous and difficult, to see "battlefields" and "ruins" are less offensive but still could entice someone to get into great difficulties or injured, lost etc. The Fish Creek canyon example comes to mind as an example of this, which is a fairly difficult hike (at least it is for me) and zero evidence of any mass battle apparent. He or she or they may make assertions that I simply failed to see any, which would be to assume that I do not look things over pretty carefully and is very mistaken. I was a bit offended at his statement that I was really there looking for evidence of Atlantis or some other kind of treasures, which was utterly false as I was looking for evidence of a missing person and had no treasure hunting equipment of any kind with me, unless a camera and dog is considered treasure hunting equipment.
Klondike or whoever that person(s) really is or are, has had quite a run on this and if you wish to continue the "debate" (a totally one sided discussion for I have never seen Klondike change a position in the slightest due to any amount of fact that you or anyone else has presented to him or them) I have no intention of stopping or hindering you, I am simply telling him or her or them that it would be healthy and wise to re-examine his/her/their part in this farce. If the stories have been truth, then crimes have been committed and something needs to be done about it, if they are false then that ought to be made clear.
I won't keep pestering Klondike et al about this, but retain the right to post if I see him again telling 'the public' to go a-scampering about on Coronado Mesa or any other potentially dangerous area. Let us not wink and nod when such suggestions are proposed for this is very far from a private discussion and someone may just take Klondike et al seriously.
I am not angry with Klondike et al, just disgusted and repelled by his story and attitude. I just hope that he or she or they will do the right thing at some point. There is such a thing as carrying a spoof too far.
Take it easy Joe, I hope you are enjoying a most pleasant spring and I look forward to seeing you in the future.
Roy ~ Oroblanco <sorry I don't have five or six alternate identities
>"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Roy,
"and it is quite possible that Ben Davis is his real name but thanks to the many posts and many identities assumed or real, we can not know for sure. It fits the pattern of diversion and diffusion this poster has followed from when he or she first jumped into the Calalus discussion back in 2010, or even earlier but that was the first I read of his or her posts along these lines. I have had conversation with him or them here for over a year at least."
A number of years ago I looked up Ben Davis, as he had provided too much information in his e-mails and posts. Got his office phone # and gave him a call. We had a very pleasant conversation and he gave me the impression that he fully believed the story he was spinning here.
I believe all of the various posts that are coming our way are from the same computer......in his office, no matter if it's Ben, Late, Klondike......etc. This remains true even when Klondike is "Out of pocket", I assume in Africa or Northern California......I believe in the Silicon Valley area. Blue.....something or other as I recall. Memory is failing bad.
The story is preposterous, without a single piece of evidence to lend support. Promises have been made to various members here, including myself, without a single one kept, as far as I know. The fiction started from the beginning of Ben's posts, and have continued unabated to the present date.
If it's about a book, I'm a buyer, even though I seldom read fiction these days. Like Kraig's stories, I assume it will contain a lot of serious history, which makes it somewhat worthwhile. Like BBs stories, it prods me to dig into real history.....with a purpose. I like that incentive.
Ben is a Judge Advocate as I recall, so I doubt he needs to by appraised of the legal ramifications of the actions he claims have been taken. Just another reason to believe his stories are complete fiction.
All just my opinion. On the other hand, he keeps it interesting.
Take care,
Joe
"and it is quite possible that Ben Davis is his real name but thanks to the many posts and many identities assumed or real, we can not know for sure. It fits the pattern of diversion and diffusion this poster has followed from when he or she first jumped into the Calalus discussion back in 2010, or even earlier but that was the first I read of his or her posts along these lines. I have had conversation with him or them here for over a year at least."
A number of years ago I looked up Ben Davis, as he had provided too much information in his e-mails and posts. Got his office phone # and gave him a call. We had a very pleasant conversation and he gave me the impression that he fully believed the story he was spinning here.
I believe all of the various posts that are coming our way are from the same computer......in his office, no matter if it's Ben, Late, Klondike......etc. This remains true even when Klondike is "Out of pocket", I assume in Africa or Northern California......I believe in the Silicon Valley area. Blue.....something or other as I recall. Memory is failing bad.
The story is preposterous, without a single piece of evidence to lend support. Promises have been made to various members here, including myself, without a single one kept, as far as I know. The fiction started from the beginning of Ben's posts, and have continued unabated to the present date.
If it's about a book, I'm a buyer, even though I seldom read fiction these days. Like Kraig's stories, I assume it will contain a lot of serious history, which makes it somewhat worthwhile. Like BBs stories, it prods me to dig into real history.....with a purpose. I like that incentive.
Ben is a Judge Advocate as I recall, so I doubt he needs to by appraised of the legal ramifications of the actions he claims have been taken. Just another reason to believe his stories are complete fiction.
All just my opinion. On the other hand, he keeps it interesting.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Roy,
Seems your panties are in quite the wad there. Perhaps keeping to the discussion would be helpful and trying to avoid well sensationalism would be a better path.
I have indicated that the trail maps have multiple meanings. I will present three.
1. Joe`s solution is the well best of the litter.
2. Another solution is to take the trail maps and align the tip of the knife with where the Salt River and Fish Creek Canyon meet. This also will bring to focus portions of the trail Maps. What is important about this solution is the lack of a trail.
3. A third solution involves taking the trail on the maps and realizing it is also a star chart. This perspective gives one the thinking behind the folks that laid out the original trails that are utilized by those who followed in their efforts to understand the creators.
As we have indicated before there is no reason for anyone to endanger themselves looking for anything in the Coronado Mesa area. There is nothing to see.
The library of Oz is safe. That is all that matters. The rest is just footnotes.
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
As we have indicated before the proof is all around you. About 2 feet at Snaketown. Just a shovel is all that is needed.
Roy, Mr. Ribaudo,
A dialogue is only possible if folks maintain a well certain civility to the discussions. I wish both of you nothing but the best but really what is the point? Believe what you will.
Klondike
Klondike
Seems your panties are in quite the wad there. Perhaps keeping to the discussion would be helpful and trying to avoid well sensationalism would be a better path.
I have indicated that the trail maps have multiple meanings. I will present three.
1. Joe`s solution is the well best of the litter.
2. Another solution is to take the trail maps and align the tip of the knife with where the Salt River and Fish Creek Canyon meet. This also will bring to focus portions of the trail Maps. What is important about this solution is the lack of a trail.
3. A third solution involves taking the trail on the maps and realizing it is also a star chart. This perspective gives one the thinking behind the folks that laid out the original trails that are utilized by those who followed in their efforts to understand the creators.
As we have indicated before there is no reason for anyone to endanger themselves looking for anything in the Coronado Mesa area. There is nothing to see.
The library of Oz is safe. That is all that matters. The rest is just footnotes.
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
As we have indicated before the proof is all around you. About 2 feet at Snaketown. Just a shovel is all that is needed.
Roy, Mr. Ribaudo,
A dialogue is only possible if folks maintain a well certain civility to the discussions. I wish both of you nothing but the best but really what is the point? Believe what you will.
Klondike
Klondike
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Roy,
America is a wonderful place. It gives us all opportunities to do things with our lives that are rarely possible in most of the world. Having said that there were worlds that existed before this one that attaches to some of us but not to others. The children of Calalus cared for the library of Oz after the destruction of the people and for many, many years before the United States was created.
I remember as a child hearing the wonderous stories of those who gave their lives in the Canyon of the Souls to protect Oz.
I remember my first visit to Oz and the pride I felt knowing our people cared for such a place with their blood.
Roy you are very, very wrong. In this case what was right was done. If you cannot see that then you will never understand the Superstitions. You see Roy Oz is the Superstitions and the Superstitions is Oz.
Good luck in your adventures and may you find success in whatever you attempt.
Klondike
America is a wonderful place. It gives us all opportunities to do things with our lives that are rarely possible in most of the world. Having said that there were worlds that existed before this one that attaches to some of us but not to others. The children of Calalus cared for the library of Oz after the destruction of the people and for many, many years before the United States was created.
I remember as a child hearing the wonderous stories of those who gave their lives in the Canyon of the Souls to protect Oz.
I remember my first visit to Oz and the pride I felt knowing our people cared for such a place with their blood.
Roy you are very, very wrong. In this case what was right was done. If you cannot see that then you will never understand the Superstitions. You see Roy Oz is the Superstitions and the Superstitions is Oz.
Good luck in your adventures and may you find success in whatever you attempt.
Klondike
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
"As we have indicated before the proof is all around you. About 2 feet at Snaketown. Just a shovel is all that is needed."
Really! 2-feet from the stratigraphic testing that has already been done? Do you believe Snaketown existed prior to the Hohokam culture? If the proof that is all around me is buried 2-feet below the surface of what has already been excavated, how do you know what will be found there? What era will that extra 2-feet put someone in?
I am familiar with the history of Snaketown, so your adding it into the mix is not awe inspiring. Is this going to turn into another slam of Emil Haury? If so, you should provide some of your qualifications to judge him.
No one is excited here. You should make a serious attempt to get over yourself.
Take care,
Joe
"As we have indicated before the proof is all around you. About 2 feet at Snaketown. Just a shovel is all that is needed."
Really! 2-feet from the stratigraphic testing that has already been done? Do you believe Snaketown existed prior to the Hohokam culture? If the proof that is all around me is buried 2-feet below the surface of what has already been excavated, how do you know what will be found there? What era will that extra 2-feet put someone in?
I am familiar with the history of Snaketown, so your adding it into the mix is not awe inspiring. Is this going to turn into another slam of Emil Haury? If so, you should provide some of your qualifications to judge him.
No one is excited here. You should make a serious attempt to get over yourself.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Klondike wrote
Klondike also wrote
Suggesting we stand in Eldorado canyon
Telling Randy how to get to a small canyon near Coronado Mesa,
Suggesting that we visit Calalus
This one has them all, Calalus, Oz, Circlestone, Coronado Mesa, Canyon of the Souls, Rogers Canyon <http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 412#p20412
I could go on but I have no desire to embarrass you, perhaps you simply forgot the earlier posts.
Klondike also wrote
Will you do the right thing? I have some doubt. I wish you good luck and good hunting, and hope you will choose to do the right thing. One last thing - while I do not know every square foot of the Superstition mountains, I do have some understanding of them as well as their history, without needing to fantasize any imaginary part. There are real mysteries there like Circlestone and the Lost Dutchman mine too, which are fascinating in their own right, without needing any embellishments.
Joe - I did not catch it where he said he was a Judge Advocate, which if true, would make it even more inexplicable for him to have such positive views about looting and smuggling. Kind of makes you wonder.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
Ah, so an insult is supposed to convince me? Rest assured that I am very far from excited, unless you consider disgust a form of excitement. It is you that has made all the sensationist statements around here amigo.Hello Roy,
Seems your panties are in quite the wad there. Perhaps keeping to the discussion would be helpful and trying to avoid well sensationalism would be a better path.
Klondike also wrote
Then perhaps I can jog your memory? You have been trying to draw people to go out to your sites right along.As we have indicated before there is no reason for anyone to endanger themselves looking for anything in the Coronado Mesa area. There is nothing to see.
Suggesting we stand in Eldorado canyon
<http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 915#p20915>Then again if one desires to understand the Superstitions one must stand in Eldorado Canyon and look out over a thousand years of history.
Telling Randy how to get to a small canyon near Coronado Mesa,
<http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 092#p21092Hello Randy,
If one follows the Salt River to a small canyon near Coronado Mesa, one will find several starbursts, spirals that lead up to the Mesa. Beneath one of the starbursts is a covered up cave that takes one to Oz.
Suggesting that we visit Calalus
<http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 350#p20350>Sorry you can`t make the visit to Calalus. Having said that we have pretty well telegraphed the location so that someone capable of figuring out four of the six Stone Maps should be able to beat us there.
This one has them all, Calalus, Oz, Circlestone, Coronado Mesa, Canyon of the Souls, Rogers Canyon <http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 412#p20412
I could go on but I have no desire to embarrass you, perhaps you simply forgot the earlier posts.
Klondike also wrote
I passed over your return to the Stone Maps as I have no interest in them, never did trust them and the evidence now looks fairly solid that they are a modern forgery. As to the rest of your post, what a wonderful story, and without foundation of truth. I had hoped that you might choose to do the right thing, and either admit this has all been a dupe, a spoof intended to fool treasure hunters or for your own entertainment, or on the (small) chance that there was some truth in it, to contact the authorities for violations of the Antiquities Act as well as smuggling of stolen antiquites. If I had believed your story, I would have been sorely tempted to contact the US Attorney's office in Arizona myself; in fact I can give you the email: [email protected]America is a wonderful place. It gives us all opportunities to do things with our lives that are rarely possible in most of the world. Having said that there were worlds that existed before this one that attaches to some of us but not to others. The children of Calalus cared for the library of Oz after the destruction of the people and for many, many years before the United States was created.
I remember as a child hearing the wonderous stories of those who gave their lives in the Canyon of the Souls to protect Oz.
I remember my first visit to Oz and the pride I felt knowing our people cared for such a place with their blood.
Roy you are very, very wrong. In this case what was right was done. If you cannot see that then you will never understand the Superstitions. You see Roy Oz is the Superstitions and the Superstitions is Oz.
Will you do the right thing? I have some doubt. I wish you good luck and good hunting, and hope you will choose to do the right thing. One last thing - while I do not know every square foot of the Superstition mountains, I do have some understanding of them as well as their history, without needing to fantasize any imaginary part. There are real mysteries there like Circlestone and the Lost Dutchman mine too, which are fascinating in their own right, without needing any embellishments.
Joe - I did not catch it where he said he was a Judge Advocate, which if true, would make it even more inexplicable for him to have such positive views about looting and smuggling. Kind of makes you wonder.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Roy,
"I did not catch it where he said he was a Judge Advocate, which if true, would make it even more inexplicable for him to have such positive views about looting and smuggling. Kind of makes you wonder.
late49er"
What follows is the post by Ben, in his Late49er ID. It also comes from Ben's comuputer at his office:
Post subject: integrity
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:10 am
Part Timer
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Reno, Nevada
If any of you would like to have an intelligent discussion regarding the LDM please feel free to e-mail me at the college. [email protected]
Right now I have to teach a course involving ethics for the supreme court of the former soviet republic of Tajikistan. I believe some of you folks could learn a lot by looking your self in the mirror and asking yourself what it is you see.
You see, at the end of the day, all we bring into this world is our intergrity and, as Heraclitus noted it is our destiny.
Maybe this whole business, the LDM, is so full of lies and deceit, it poisons everyone it touches.
This is such a damn shame.
This will be my last post on this circus.
Regards,
Late 49er
____________________________________________
That post resulted in my calling Ben and having a nice visit with him.....On the phone.
Take care,
Joe
"I did not catch it where he said he was a Judge Advocate, which if true, would make it even more inexplicable for him to have such positive views about looting and smuggling. Kind of makes you wonder.
late49er"
What follows is the post by Ben, in his Late49er ID. It also comes from Ben's comuputer at his office:
Post subject: integrity
Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:10 am
Part Timer
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 3:40 pm
Posts: 110
Location: Reno, Nevada
If any of you would like to have an intelligent discussion regarding the LDM please feel free to e-mail me at the college. [email protected]
Right now I have to teach a course involving ethics for the supreme court of the former soviet republic of Tajikistan. I believe some of you folks could learn a lot by looking your self in the mirror and asking yourself what it is you see.
You see, at the end of the day, all we bring into this world is our intergrity and, as Heraclitus noted it is our destiny.
Maybe this whole business, the LDM, is so full of lies and deceit, it poisons everyone it touches.
This is such a damn shame.
This will be my last post on this circus.
Regards,
Late 49er
____________________________________________
That post resulted in my calling Ben and having a nice visit with him.....On the phone.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
I haven't known Mr. Davis to be secretive in any way as to his identity. I've spoken to him on the phone as well.
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Paul,
Hope things are well with you and yours. May the stars keep you all safe.
Hello Roy,
I believe Klondike made it perfectly clear to you that there is nothing to see on Coronado Mesa. Is Eldorado Canyon important to the history of the Superstitions you bet. I would imagine there would be no safety concerns in visiting Eldorado Canyon and looking out over a thousand years of history. Really Eldorado Canyon is a quite dull place but if it terrifies you by all means stay away.
Why yes there are trails in the Superstitions that are marked with starbursts. I have personally taken one all the way from Klondike Springs to Fish Creek Canyon and beyond. The only thing I found on the trail to be concerned about was a few rather large, fat snakes. Actually quite a relaxing few days on the trail. Is there a small canyon near Coronado Mesa with Starbursts yes there is. Since you seem to spend time in the area you may even come across one.
As has been stated time and time again Oz is gone. There really is nothing to talk about there.
I do find it rather sad your lack of interest in the Stone Maps. It really is an important element in understanding the history of the Superstitions. And yes Fish Creek Canyon is right in the middle of it. A lot of folks have understood that. Both historical and current folks.
It is intriguing you seem to think we have sites that we are trying to entice folks to visit. Actually we have created nothing of importance in the range. And as far as smuggling goes don`t you think that statement is a bit silly. How can one take that which has always been yours to begin with. All that has been done is protecting the holy. A concept you should be able to handle but perhaps not.
Actually we have been very open to conversations and have made little effort to well hide identites. Late and Eldorado were fine, fine men that I was proud to be friends with for many, many years. Klondike is a world class Geologist and much like his father has a incredible kindness. Dog is probably the most intelligent person I have ever met in putting together the meaning of ancient texts. His father was an incrediably gifted well map maker.
I could go on but what is the point.
Joe,
Roy`s rather hysterical rants did remind me we did in fact invite you years ago to meet with Klondike and dog in Eldorado Canyon. Sorry you couldn`t make it. You missed a fine meal. What was it you said something about a day late and a dollar short. It is a shame the trip was never possible. You really can see a thousand years of history standing in Eldorado Canyon.
Well Gentlemen have a good life and I am sure the stars will keep you safe. Perhaps the best way to sum all of this up is to repeat what Joe said, "a day late and a dollar short".
Ben
Hope things are well with you and yours. May the stars keep you all safe.
Hello Roy,
I believe Klondike made it perfectly clear to you that there is nothing to see on Coronado Mesa. Is Eldorado Canyon important to the history of the Superstitions you bet. I would imagine there would be no safety concerns in visiting Eldorado Canyon and looking out over a thousand years of history. Really Eldorado Canyon is a quite dull place but if it terrifies you by all means stay away.
Why yes there are trails in the Superstitions that are marked with starbursts. I have personally taken one all the way from Klondike Springs to Fish Creek Canyon and beyond. The only thing I found on the trail to be concerned about was a few rather large, fat snakes. Actually quite a relaxing few days on the trail. Is there a small canyon near Coronado Mesa with Starbursts yes there is. Since you seem to spend time in the area you may even come across one.
As has been stated time and time again Oz is gone. There really is nothing to talk about there.
I do find it rather sad your lack of interest in the Stone Maps. It really is an important element in understanding the history of the Superstitions. And yes Fish Creek Canyon is right in the middle of it. A lot of folks have understood that. Both historical and current folks.
It is intriguing you seem to think we have sites that we are trying to entice folks to visit. Actually we have created nothing of importance in the range. And as far as smuggling goes don`t you think that statement is a bit silly. How can one take that which has always been yours to begin with. All that has been done is protecting the holy. A concept you should be able to handle but perhaps not.
Actually we have been very open to conversations and have made little effort to well hide identites. Late and Eldorado were fine, fine men that I was proud to be friends with for many, many years. Klondike is a world class Geologist and much like his father has a incredible kindness. Dog is probably the most intelligent person I have ever met in putting together the meaning of ancient texts. His father was an incrediably gifted well map maker.
I could go on but what is the point.
Joe,
Roy`s rather hysterical rants did remind me we did in fact invite you years ago to meet with Klondike and dog in Eldorado Canyon. Sorry you couldn`t make it. You missed a fine meal. What was it you said something about a day late and a dollar short. It is a shame the trip was never possible. You really can see a thousand years of history standing in Eldorado Canyon.
Well Gentlemen have a good life and I am sure the stars will keep you safe. Perhaps the best way to sum all of this up is to repeat what Joe said, "a day late and a dollar short".
Ben
Re: Yellow Jackets
Klondike wrote
"Any person who shall appropriate, excavate, injure, or destroy any historic or prehistoric ruin or monument, or any object of antiquity, situated on lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States, without the permission of the Secretary of the Department of the Government having jurisdiction over the lands on which said antiquities are situated, shall, upon conviction, be fined in a sum of not more than $500 or be imprisoned for a period of not more than ninety days, or shall suffer both fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court." <United States Code Title 16 › Chapter 1 › Subchapter LXI>
Under the US Antiquities Act, anything found is property of the public. Your friends would need to prove (establish) legal ownership of the artifacts to the US govt before they could legally be removed, much less shipped out of the country. By the way, taking things out of the country without having done that step just mentioned amounts to smuggling. You as a judge advocate should know that very well. Makes me wonder about the ethics class you were teaching.
Oh and Ben, "hysterical"? Really? I could not be more calm, cool and collected. Why do you keep thinking that there is some level of excited activity here? I have merely pointed out that you have told a rather tall tale that involved theft, deception and smuggling, all done in the name of "right" as you define it rather than in the eyes of the law, and you seem to think all that is highly laudable activity. I can see that you are not going to do the right thing, and that really is a shame.
As to the rest of your post, perhaps it might help if you re-read some of your own posts? Yes the Superstitions are a magical place with a fascinating history, that does not need any embellishments. What amazes me is how many folks seem bent on doing just that, like Roberts or Davis et al.
Good luck and good hunting to you, I reserve the right to post if more misleading suggestions are posted, but otherwise I shall not trouble you further. Your own conscience ought to do that if you have one.
Oroblanco
PS Joe and Paul, while Ben Davis has not attempted to hide THAT particular identity, why then all those other personalities? Has he given the full names of any of those others? Or do they all reside in the same body, coming out to talk once in a while? I have known people with mild and harmless little delusions <many of us have little quirks> but have little experience with multiple personality disorder, or schizophrenia.
Perhaps you have not kept up to date on the 1906 Antiquities Act? Here is one paragraph you might find enlightening:Hello Roy,
I believe Klondike made it perfectly clear to you that there is nothing to see on Coronado Mesa. Is Eldorado Canyon important to the history of the Superstitions you bet. I would imagine there would be no safety concerns in visiting Eldorado Canyon and looking out over a thousand years of history. Really Eldorado Canyon is a quite dull place but if it terrifies you by all means stay away.
Why yes there are trails in the Superstitions that are marked with starbursts. I have personally taken one all the way from Klondike Springs to Fish Creek Canyon and beyond. The only thing I found on the trail to be concerned about was a few rather large, fat snakes. Actually quite a relaxing few days on the trail. Is there a small canyon near Coronado Mesa with Starbursts yes there is. Since you seem to spend time in the area you may even come across one.
As has been stated time and time again Oz is gone. There really is nothing to talk about there.
I do find it rather sad your lack of interest in the Stone Maps. It really is an important element in understanding the history of the Superstitions. And yes Fish Creek Canyon is right in the middle of it. A lot of folks have understood that. Both historical and current folks.
It is intriguing you seem to think we have sites that we are trying to entice folks to visit. Actually we have created nothing of importance in the range. And as far as smuggling goes don`t you think that statement is a bit silly. How can one take that which has always been yours to begin with. All that has been done is protecting the holy. A concept you should be able to handle but perhaps not.
Actually we have been very open to conversations and have made little effort to well hide identites. Late and Eldorado were fine, fine men that I was proud to be friends with for many, many years. Klondike is a world class Geologist and much like his father has a incredible kindness. Dog is probably the most intelligent person I have ever met in putting together the meaning of ancient texts. His father was an incrediably gifted well map maker.
I could go on but what is the point.
"Any person who shall appropriate, excavate, injure, or destroy any historic or prehistoric ruin or monument, or any object of antiquity, situated on lands owned or controlled by the Government of the United States, without the permission of the Secretary of the Department of the Government having jurisdiction over the lands on which said antiquities are situated, shall, upon conviction, be fined in a sum of not more than $500 or be imprisoned for a period of not more than ninety days, or shall suffer both fine and imprisonment, in the discretion of the court." <United States Code Title 16 › Chapter 1 › Subchapter LXI>
Under the US Antiquities Act, anything found is property of the public. Your friends would need to prove (establish) legal ownership of the artifacts to the US govt before they could legally be removed, much less shipped out of the country. By the way, taking things out of the country without having done that step just mentioned amounts to smuggling. You as a judge advocate should know that very well. Makes me wonder about the ethics class you were teaching.
Oh and Ben, "hysterical"? Really? I could not be more calm, cool and collected. Why do you keep thinking that there is some level of excited activity here? I have merely pointed out that you have told a rather tall tale that involved theft, deception and smuggling, all done in the name of "right" as you define it rather than in the eyes of the law, and you seem to think all that is highly laudable activity. I can see that you are not going to do the right thing, and that really is a shame.
As to the rest of your post, perhaps it might help if you re-read some of your own posts? Yes the Superstitions are a magical place with a fascinating history, that does not need any embellishments. What amazes me is how many folks seem bent on doing just that, like Roberts or Davis et al.
Good luck and good hunting to you, I reserve the right to post if more misleading suggestions are posted, but otherwise I shall not trouble you further. Your own conscience ought to do that if you have one.
Oroblanco
PS Joe and Paul, while Ben Davis has not attempted to hide THAT particular identity, why then all those other personalities? Has he given the full names of any of those others? Or do they all reside in the same body, coming out to talk once in a while? I have known people with mild and harmless little delusions <many of us have little quirks> but have little experience with multiple personality disorder, or schizophrenia.
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: Yellow Jackets
Klondike - it's been a difficult 6 months, healthwise and just "everything-wise." What doesn't kill us makes us stronger - at least that's what I hear.
Not sure I'll make a trip to the Superstitions this fall or not. I'm still hoping for that opportunity to visit some of the locations you've mentioned in the past, but with 1 week every year or two being the most I can do, what I can see and do is always severely limited.
Oro - All I can tell you is that I spoke with Ben himself on the phone. My understanding is that the other folks (or persona's as you suggest) post responses through Ben - why? I don't know for certain, but I assume to retain annonymity.
Joe has asked me a number of times if Ben, Klondike, etc... have shown or told me anything in private that has convinced me of the truth of the entire story. He didn't ask to know what it was (if anything) I was told, just whether there's something that convinced me.
As I told Joe, the truth of the matter is... Sometimes there are things you just believe, even if the physical evidence isn't enough to convince the average person. Perhaps there is a part of me that just WANTS to believe if that makes any sense? I'm a scientists by nature and by training Oro - one of my main personality traits is to question everything and not believe anything unless it can be proven to me - PERSONALLY. On the other hand, I have another trait that is constantly in battle with that first one... It's the trait of keeping a very open mind about anything and everything. Sometimes those 2 traits can be completely 180 degress from one another and I end up just having to "choose a side."
Some call it naive, some call it stupidity, some call it being gullible. In most cases the trait that wins the battle is the scientist side, but now and then the other side wins. I guess in this case, the open mind is still open.
I hope perhaps that someday, the scientist side will have an opportunity to see or learn something in the case of "Oz" and the other stories Ben/Klondike, etc... have told and my entired mind will be more at ease
. Until then however, I'm content to keep trying to put pieces of the puzzle together and see where they eventually lead.
Anyways, long answer to a very short question
Not sure I'll make a trip to the Superstitions this fall or not. I'm still hoping for that opportunity to visit some of the locations you've mentioned in the past, but with 1 week every year or two being the most I can do, what I can see and do is always severely limited.
Oro - All I can tell you is that I spoke with Ben himself on the phone. My understanding is that the other folks (or persona's as you suggest) post responses through Ben - why? I don't know for certain, but I assume to retain annonymity.
Joe has asked me a number of times if Ben, Klondike, etc... have shown or told me anything in private that has convinced me of the truth of the entire story. He didn't ask to know what it was (if anything) I was told, just whether there's something that convinced me.
As I told Joe, the truth of the matter is... Sometimes there are things you just believe, even if the physical evidence isn't enough to convince the average person. Perhaps there is a part of me that just WANTS to believe if that makes any sense? I'm a scientists by nature and by training Oro - one of my main personality traits is to question everything and not believe anything unless it can be proven to me - PERSONALLY. On the other hand, I have another trait that is constantly in battle with that first one... It's the trait of keeping a very open mind about anything and everything. Sometimes those 2 traits can be completely 180 degress from one another and I end up just having to "choose a side."
Some call it naive, some call it stupidity, some call it being gullible. In most cases the trait that wins the battle is the scientist side, but now and then the other side wins. I guess in this case, the open mind is still open.
I hope perhaps that someday, the scientist side will have an opportunity to see or learn something in the case of "Oz" and the other stories Ben/Klondike, etc... have told and my entired mind will be more at ease
. Until then however, I'm content to keep trying to put pieces of the puzzle together and see where they eventually lead.Anyways, long answer to a very short question
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Paul,
I am sorry to hear of your personal grief. I know we have not spoken in a while and I would welcome hearing from you. Hopefully you can make it out in the Fall. Perhaps this year we can meet. I know Klondike spoke highly of you but since you did not know you met him that really does not count.
You are correct in how we have done business here. I have posted for my friends for many years. For us it is simply easier this way and it is important a certain distance is maintained from some very distasteful folks. That is what a Gatekeeper does.
Faith is a very special gift Paul. I suspect few people really believe in things anymore and the world is a poorer place for it. Faith is all the defenders in the Canyon of the Souls had and because of that faith their people live on and they are not forgotten. It is the folks without faith that lose the most I think because when they leave this world it is as if they were never here. Never think for a moment we do not understand the cost of your faith.
Will the stars keep you safe? Yes if have faith they will.
Roy,
In spite of your rather colorful descriptive adjectives I really have no animosity towards you. You seem to be a decent enough sort and I can assure you our efforts in the Superstitions have not resulted in any violation of statutes. As we have said before appearances can be deceiving and contradictions are not in the things themselves but in our souls. You will just have to look deeper to understand things. If you had done your homework you might remember Late once said that everything happened pretty much the way we said it did, the sequencing is just a bit suspect.
Perhaps a question will illustrate my point. If everything happened just the way we described it but the areas you are concerned about happened before the United States existed what laws were violated?
My real concern with your position is that it is for the lack of a better word morally bankrupt.
Would you steal from a people who have lost so much and have paid an unbelievable price to have such a pitiful few things left to call their own? Would you deny them the joy of showing their children what their ancestors did. I prefer to believe you are not such a person.
You see Roy your position is the same kind of thinking that pervaded a civilized people in the first half of the 20th Century. If you ever take the time to educate yourself in their legal system the folks responsible for the most cruel and massive theft of human life and property, the most morally bankrupt people on this planet well violated none of their country`s laws.
Joe,
As you know we have no real problem with what is his name? The fellow who you seem to believe had some importance in the Calalus digs. As we said he is just a footnote and not a very important one at that. A simple reading of the Bent effort and taking the time to immerse yourself in the University records will aptly support that position.
Well Gentlemen there is not really anything else to discuss.
One final point though. The ancients had a beautiful language. In fact they had 27 words to simply describe the phenomena of love. I am afraid we will never see such a people again. They failed terribly. Perhaps that is the biggest lesson to be learned from the library of Oz.
Regards,
Ben
I am sorry to hear of your personal grief. I know we have not spoken in a while and I would welcome hearing from you. Hopefully you can make it out in the Fall. Perhaps this year we can meet. I know Klondike spoke highly of you but since you did not know you met him that really does not count.
You are correct in how we have done business here. I have posted for my friends for many years. For us it is simply easier this way and it is important a certain distance is maintained from some very distasteful folks. That is what a Gatekeeper does.
Faith is a very special gift Paul. I suspect few people really believe in things anymore and the world is a poorer place for it. Faith is all the defenders in the Canyon of the Souls had and because of that faith their people live on and they are not forgotten. It is the folks without faith that lose the most I think because when they leave this world it is as if they were never here. Never think for a moment we do not understand the cost of your faith.
Will the stars keep you safe? Yes if have faith they will.
Roy,
In spite of your rather colorful descriptive adjectives I really have no animosity towards you. You seem to be a decent enough sort and I can assure you our efforts in the Superstitions have not resulted in any violation of statutes. As we have said before appearances can be deceiving and contradictions are not in the things themselves but in our souls. You will just have to look deeper to understand things. If you had done your homework you might remember Late once said that everything happened pretty much the way we said it did, the sequencing is just a bit suspect.
Perhaps a question will illustrate my point. If everything happened just the way we described it but the areas you are concerned about happened before the United States existed what laws were violated?
My real concern with your position is that it is for the lack of a better word morally bankrupt.
Would you steal from a people who have lost so much and have paid an unbelievable price to have such a pitiful few things left to call their own? Would you deny them the joy of showing their children what their ancestors did. I prefer to believe you are not such a person.
You see Roy your position is the same kind of thinking that pervaded a civilized people in the first half of the 20th Century. If you ever take the time to educate yourself in their legal system the folks responsible for the most cruel and massive theft of human life and property, the most morally bankrupt people on this planet well violated none of their country`s laws.
Joe,
As you know we have no real problem with what is his name? The fellow who you seem to believe had some importance in the Calalus digs. As we said he is just a footnote and not a very important one at that. A simple reading of the Bent effort and taking the time to immerse yourself in the University records will aptly support that position.
Well Gentlemen there is not really anything else to discuss.
One final point though. The ancients had a beautiful language. In fact they had 27 words to simply describe the phenomena of love. I am afraid we will never see such a people again. They failed terribly. Perhaps that is the biggest lesson to be learned from the library of Oz.
Regards,
Ben
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
"Perhaps a question will illustrate my point. If everything happened just the way we described it but the areas you are concerned about happened before the United States existed what laws were violated?"
You seem to be more confused than Mike Tyson at a spelling bee.
The first question that comes to mind is, what reason could you possibly have for posting these fantasies over the years, if the above quote is the truth? You would need to go back through all of the posts you have made here as.....whoever, to see just how transparent your game has been.
Your anger at people like Roy, is a red flag announcing that you are aware of just how lame your story has been. Having folks call it what it is, probably galls you to no end. People who make things up and post them on public sites, like this, often get B.S. called on them. What usually happens is they get angry, call people names, question their intelligence and delete their posts.......if they can. The management has ended that nasty little habit on this Forum. You are stuck with the written history of your posts.
Your latest statement just shows the contempt you have for us. Never cover up phony stories with a worse one. You have threatened to leave the site more times than bb.......in his prime. On the other hand, like bb, you have sent me in a number of different research directions, and I am the better for it.
Thanks for the ride,
Joe
"Perhaps a question will illustrate my point. If everything happened just the way we described it but the areas you are concerned about happened before the United States existed what laws were violated?"
You seem to be more confused than Mike Tyson at a spelling bee.
The first question that comes to mind is, what reason could you possibly have for posting these fantasies over the years, if the above quote is the truth? You would need to go back through all of the posts you have made here as.....whoever, to see just how transparent your game has been. Your anger at people like Roy, is a red flag announcing that you are aware of just how lame your story has been. Having folks call it what it is, probably galls you to no end. People who make things up and post them on public sites, like this, often get B.S. called on them. What usually happens is they get angry, call people names, question their intelligence and delete their posts.......if they can. The management has ended that nasty little habit on this Forum. You are stuck with the written history of your posts.
Your latest statement just shows the contempt you have for us. Never cover up phony stories with a worse one. You have threatened to leave the site more times than bb.......in his prime. On the other hand, like bb, you have sent me in a number of different research directions, and I am the better for it.
Thanks for the ride,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Paul - no need to explain, and I am sorry to hear that you have had health issues. I hope that you are well on the road to being 100%, and as for this discussion I don't think there is a negative in researching a matter even if it seems far-fetched. I am a bit jealous that you live so close to another ancient mysterious ruin too - Mystery Hill; always meant to visit it but never did.
Joe you have it right on the money again too. A common thread in these cases is the hoaxer is always wanting us to believe, just believe. A truth will stand on its own, without any need of belief to see it.
Ben, I have no personal issue with you, just find your stories are not believable, and if they are then it is a case of several crimes. The Antiquities Act went into effect in 1906, so if your looting pals took the relics and replaced them with fakes before that date, and also smuggled them out of the country before that time you are home free. However you have indicated that the smuggling was quite recent, and the relics were not discovered until 1024, so yep it was crimes if your tale was true. It would have been theft of priceless antiquities from the people of the United States, so yes I have a problem with that. With your background this ought to be obvious. I hope you are putting this all into a book, should be a good one.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Joe you have it right on the money again too. A common thread in these cases is the hoaxer is always wanting us to believe, just believe. A truth will stand on its own, without any need of belief to see it.
Ben, I have no personal issue with you, just find your stories are not believable, and if they are then it is a case of several crimes. The Antiquities Act went into effect in 1906, so if your looting pals took the relics and replaced them with fakes before that date, and also smuggled them out of the country before that time you are home free. However you have indicated that the smuggling was quite recent, and the relics were not discovered until 1024, so yep it was crimes if your tale was true. It would have been theft of priceless antiquities from the people of the United States, so yes I have a problem with that. With your background this ought to be obvious. I hope you are putting this all into a book, should be a good one.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Roy,
To be honest, it's astounding to me to see someone who has worked so hard and so long at establishing zero credibility on this Forum, demean someone like you, who has done just the opposite. Critiquing the performance of Ben on this site does not really take a mental giant. On the other hand, he has provided us all with some interesting subjects to research. He has relieved us of some boredom, just as we have done for him. In the end, that may very well be what it is all about for Ben.
Take care,
Joe
To be honest, it's astounding to me to see someone who has worked so hard and so long at establishing zero credibility on this Forum, demean someone like you, who has done just the opposite. Critiquing the performance of Ben on this site does not really take a mental giant. On the other hand, he has provided us all with some interesting subjects to research. He has relieved us of some boredom, just as we have done for him. In the end, that may very well be what it is all about for Ben.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Joe, thank you for the very kind words, and I agree that getting us back to the books is generally a good thing. Getting folks to go risk life and limb based on a fiction on the other hand is not, but that is just a personal opinion. I do not understand why some people have a compulsion to blend fiction into the history of the Superstitions when the real history is remarkable enough, and has some very real mysteries like Circlestone. There is evidence that the Hohokam were active in the mountains and this deserves further research for another example. I have a problem with bookstores that are mixing historical fiction on the same shelves with nonfiction history books too, for when fiction is getting mixed in, no good can come of it. I would class Ben's efforts here in the historical fiction category, trying to get the nonfiction label.
I wonder if anyone has ever checked out the story Bicknell published a year or so before he wrote about the Lost Dutchman, about finding an ancient Hohokam copper mine on the top of Superstition mountain, along with a 'natural battery'? Ever heard about anyone having found such a site? Thank you in advance;
I hope all is well with you and Carolyn, and wish you a very pleasant evening - please give Smoky a tummy rub! <I hope he likes that and won't draw blood!> 
Roy ~ Oroblanco
I wonder if anyone has ever checked out the story Bicknell published a year or so before he wrote about the Lost Dutchman, about finding an ancient Hohokam copper mine on the top of Superstition mountain, along with a 'natural battery'? Ever heard about anyone having found such a site? Thank you in advance;
I hope all is well with you and Carolyn, and wish you a very pleasant evening - please give Smoky a tummy rub! <I hope he likes that and won't draw blood!>
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Roy,
"I wonder if anyone has ever checked out the story Bicknell published a year or so before he wrote about the Lost Dutchman, about finding an ancient Hohokam copper mine on the top of Superstition mountain, along with a 'natural battery'? Ever heard about anyone having found such a site?"
The story has a familiar ring to it, but I couldn't find a source. Bick made a number of trips into the Supe's and the Four Peaks region. I looked through Tom's "The Chronological History of the Superstition Wilderness Region......" up to the time of his death in Prescott on March 31, 1904.
No mention of his finding a copper mine or a "natural battery". Might just be another tall tale.
Take care,
Joe
"I wonder if anyone has ever checked out the story Bicknell published a year or so before he wrote about the Lost Dutchman, about finding an ancient Hohokam copper mine on the top of Superstition mountain, along with a 'natural battery'? Ever heard about anyone having found such a site?"
The story has a familiar ring to it, but I couldn't find a source. Bick made a number of trips into the Supe's and the Four Peaks region. I looked through Tom's "The Chronological History of the Superstition Wilderness Region......" up to the time of his death in Prescott on March 31, 1904.
No mention of his finding a copper mine or a "natural battery". Might just be another tall tale.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hi Joe,
Well thanks for looking anyway. I just tried to find the article online but apparently it isn't online. I am pretty sure it was 1894 though.
Roy
Well thanks for looking anyway. I just tried to find the article online but apparently it isn't online. I am pretty sure it was 1894 though.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Roy,
Perhaps you should ask Wayne where he found his piece of copper.
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... ?f=1&t=822
Beyond that, copper has been found over around Pinto Creek.
Take care,
Joe
Perhaps you should ask Wayne where he found his piece of copper.
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... ?f=1&t=822
Beyond that, copper has been found over around Pinto Creek.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Roy posted this on TNet a year or so ago - I believe it's what he was talking about:
Just a footnote here, something Bicknell published even before there was a Lost Dutchman mine in the Superstitions in the public eye; it could be complete BS of course but reinforces that you never know what will be found in the Superstitions.
MOUNT SUPERSTITION
QUEER PEAK IN ARIZONA THAT
THE APACHES FIGHT SHY OF.
A Gentleman with a Taste for Roaming Makes an Investigation and Finds a
Natural Electric Battery Rude Smelter of the Prehlstorlc Some twenty odd miles due east from
Phoenix, the capital of Arizona territory, rises abruptly to Superstition mountain,which forms a very prominent landmark, as it can be seen for a long dlstance in any direction. On the summit of Superstition mountain, and at the extreme western edge, overlooking tlie rocky bluffs, 200 and 800 feet in height, are the ruins of an old stone fort, such as are frequently found In Arizona at points where a good view of the surrounding country is afforded. About an acre of land, or rather rock, is within this inclosure. In this connection, and as the name of the mountain would indicate, is an Indian legend, and the place is held, even at tho present time, In a degree of veneration and awe by the tribes of that section of Arizona so great as to prevent any of their members hunting on or visiting it.
In the fall of 1883 P. C. Bicknell, who still resides in Phoenix, and who is a thoroughly educated gentleman, with a taste for roaming through the mountains and a penchant for archaeological research, paid a visit to a friend a cattle man residing on the Salt
river for the purpose of enjoying a brief period of recreation in hunting, fishing and the pursuit of his studies in nature. It occurred to him one day to visit the summit of Superstition mountain, which, although four or live miles distant, could easily be accomplished
before night. Taking his rifle and a canteen of water, Mr. Bicknell set out, and after a long walk and a laborious climb reached his objective point in the afternoon.
A LIVING LINE OF FIRE.
He saw nothing remarkable within the inclosure of the fallen walls. Some stone axes, hammers and broken pieces of pottery were scattered about, but as they were of the usual patterns found in all Arizona ruins they did not arouse especial interest. In one corner of the old fort, and nearly covered with fallen rock, he encountered a rude furnace, evidently used for the smelting of ores. Anxious to discover the use of what metal the prehistoric inhabitants had knowledge, he set about removing the stones. The work was very tedious and laborious, and, being absorbed with interest, he paid no attention to the flight of time. Finally he was rewarded by securing a piece of slag and also a specimen of ore which had not been subjected to treatment, and was surprised to find that the mineral was copper. Having settled this matter to the satisfaction of his own mind, Mr. Bicknell arose and cast a look to tho west, to discover that the sun was then sinking behind the range of distant mountains.
This did not disturb him much, however, so he built a fire, roasted a rabbit which he had killed on his way up, and made such preparations as were possible to spend the night comfortably on the mountain. After sundown the atmosphere became quite sultry, and, as there was every indication of a thunder storm, Mr. Bicknell concluded that he would not remain within the walls of the old fort, as the rain was liable to drive from the loose rocks rattlesnakes, centipedes and poisonous insects of various kinds. Therefore he selected for his sleeping place a remarkably smooth rock, about twenty yards in front of the east wall. Putting his hobnail shoes under his head for a pillow, Mr. Bicknell, somewhat exhausted from his long stroll and excitement, soon fell into a deep sleep.
Some time afterward he was suddenly awakened by a sharp electric shock which seemed to pass from the back of his neck downward. Managing to scramble to his feet he ran some distance to the east, and, looking back to his sleeping place, was surprised to see a living line of fire or lightning running across the mountain from north to south. Never having seen "ground lightning" before, Mr. Bicknell was very naturally awe stricken and astounded, but he was more than surprised when, recovering from his bewilderment, he noticed that the electric storm had not passed over tho mountain, but was as distant, apparently, as when he first lay down. The phenomenon lasted but a few moments, but its duration was sufficient for the explorer.
Upon returning to the camp next morning Mr. Bicknell related his experience, which was received with evident incredulity. However, he induced one of the men to accompany him to the mountain a few days afterward. They reached the summit about noon, and the weather was very warm. The men were standing upon the smooth spot which Bicknell had selected for a couch, and he was explaining about his shock, when, with simultaneous impulse, they both sprang forward and gazed into each other's faces in mute interrogation. Subsequent explanation showed that each had experienced a well defined electric shock, as , though by a light current from a galvanic battery.
Mr. Bicknell at once concluded that he would solve the mystery, and set about doing so, although his companion wus most anxious to leave the dread spot. The investigations then begun, and subsequently completed, led to the following discoveries:
On the north side of the precipice was a large dyke of pyritous iron, running east and west, and on its south wall the mineral appeared in the form of protosulphates, or what is commonly known as copperas. In the latter there was a small, irregularly shaped hole several feet in depth, into which water was slowly sipping from a small spring on a slight eminence some yards distant. This water was strongly impregnated with salt. From this pot hole and extending across the mountain top were a number of small veins, or stringers, of copper ore, almost pure in their native state, which terminated, to all appearances, in a heavy ledge of calcspar, bearing galena and a small percentage of gold, running parallel with the copper lead, but on the opposite brink of the bluff. The copper stringers connecting the ledges were evidently what is known in prospectors' parlance as a "blow out," and rested on malpais a kind of glassy slag produced by volcanic heat. Here was a positive and a negative pole, connected with a good electric conductor, and a chemical decomposition taking place that would produce a strong battery. With a jar of the copper stringers, produced by atmosphoric electrical disturbances or a number of persons stopping upon them, why might not a current be induced sufficiently strong as to become destructive to Animal life? But simply the facts are given, and the scientific reader is at liberty to evolve his own theories.
<<from the Evening Bulletin, Jan 15th 1890>>
Re: Yellow Jackets
That is the article Paul, thanks for finding it. I am pretty sure Bicknell is talking about something located more near the western end of the range than east, as Pinto creek actually flows past several copper mines just before crossing the highway. Whether he was just making it up or not I sure don't know.
Roy
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: Yellow Jackets
According to the article this happened on top of Superstition Mountain itself. What's interesting is that there are no ruins up there, so who knows.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,Joe Ribaudo wrote:Ben,
There is no real way to reply to your last post, as it was full of riddles, with no answers.
To return to your earlier post trying to make some connection between Valseqillo Reservoir and Calalus, I have one question that applies to both.
How did these two disparate groups of people manage to each appear in a single place without leaving a single sign or artifact from any previous location? Man does not move across the landscape without leaving a plethora of signs for his passing.
You have no such art before, or after, for Valseqillo, and no equal for Calalus before they show up at Silver Bell. In my unqualified opinion, that's a huge red flag. Fraud is rampant in this field.
Take care,
Joe
I was a bit surprised that you didn't respond to the above post.
It seemed like a great chance for you to put me in my place. Hard to believe it was just because you might not have had any answer.I did have a question about Valsequillo. You mentioned Hardaker's book, "The First American" but you didn't mention any other works that you based your (Calalus) comparisons on. It would be interesting to know what you have learned about the other side of the debate.
I trust you are well, and not overly bored without our little debates.
Take care,
Joe