Yellow Jackets

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klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:03 pm

Hello Roy,

Hope you and yours are having a merry christmas.

The word Calalus comes from the ancients. It was their name for the new world. And who were these ancients? The citizens of Atlantis. Explorers from Atlantis were familiar with much of the new world. This familiarity was passed down to us in the library of Oz and was pointed to in the unpublished portions of the Critias. The Critias being the source document that triggered several voyages of discovery, not just by our people.

In the past numerous pointers to this have been made. Most folks simply laugh and move on. And that is ok. Because some have taken it very, very seriously and have been rewarded for their efforts.

Perhaps the following may help. The language of the ancients was remarkable. In fact it has always impressed me as pure rythm with a richness in thought and imagination that has never since been equaled. For example above the library of Oz is the symbol O. This symbol expresses the end and yet also tells us that within the library is the history of how these people reached the end. The symbol therefore reflects both a object and a verb. A process and a end point. And under this is the notion that the beauty of existence is just this there is a beginning and an end.

Using this concept let us look and the words Atlantis and Calalus. The two objects reflect a process. That is the exploration that led to Calalus. The O tells us the end of that process and the destruction of the beginning and the end.

I mentioned this a long time ago and it seems it was simply glossed over as a trite comment. Understanding this comment opens a gate. A few have walked through. On one of the Tucson Artifacts is the inscription, "Calalus the unknown land". Odd word for settlers to just create, and why is this land unknown? Remember the artifacts were created during the last days of the people. The land of Calalus our people knew of was not unknown. The parts of Calalus that were unknown were the areas of North America that were revealed in The Critias that had not been explored. The word Calalus was simply put handed down and utilized by our people from a sense of thanks and awe. The scope and span of the efforts of the ancients was never to be matched again.

This then takes us to the discovery in Nova Scotia. Simply put, from the library it is clear the ancients were in that part of North America. Whether it was from an effort to secure minerals or other reasons, they were there. It makes sense to me at least there were subsequent explorations from the Roman Empire that found their way there. Perhaps if the wreck is examined answers can be determined.

Now we have two ships, one in the Salt River and the other off the coast of Nova Scotia. What else can they tell us about the world we live in.

Sorry, I know you folks want a silver bullet of proof but that is something that we have said we cannot provide. Far too much has been said. Having said that several people have found their way to Oz and given the transition that is place I would like to release them from their commitments to remain silent. If they choose to remain silent that is ok.

Roy, I have lost a lot in the last few months, and am simply worn out. I would not change a thing but the miles have caught up I am afraid.

May the stars keep you safe.


Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:13 pm

Hello Roy,

One final point. The inscription, "Calalus the unknown land", also has a secondary meaning that is reflective of the conditions during the holocaust. The survivors of the death and destruction that befell the people were thrust from their known land to a land they did not know. A journey that would take them east to the marsh that is now known as Silverbell Road, and east to what is now a known land. The eastern portion of the United States.


Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:34 pm

Roy,

I have no illusions as to my own abilities and knowledge. I doubt, in this lifetime, I could ever post anything close to what you have just done. A man's got to know his limitations.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:53 pm

Thank you Klondike and Joe thank you for the kind words, however undeserved. Remember I have seen YOUR library, and think you probably do have the very same 'classics' I do, like Strabo's geography. I can spot those little green Harvard hardcover books a half mile away buddy! :mrgreen:

I had hoped Klondike that you had turned up some Old World source to support your ideas concerning Calalus as the ancients name for America. I have seen nothing to support that contention. The Tucson artifacts are not an Old World source. Also, the only evidence I know of that gives us any indication of the Atlantian language points to a very different language family, one not known for being phonetically pleasing at all. Rather displeasing in fact. Then there is that whole issue of "O" and the meanings you are assigning to it, which are not supported by any sources I am aware of. Even this 'holocaust' you keep referring to as if it were real, can you provide us some kind of evidence that anything like it really happened? Other than the highly questionable Tucson artifacts?

Klondike you are an educated man, so perhaps you can not see how difficult it is to just accept the whole Calalus/Oz tale at face value. I am not an educated man, what little I do know is almost entirely self taught. Hence I must struggle with even Latin, which pretty much any academic can take in stride. I don't even have an issue with the concept of ancient VISITORS coming to America, long before Columbus. In fact I am 100% certain that it happened. We don't even have to refer to a Salt River shipwreck that has yet to see any documentation or proof by the way, for several shipwrecks are already documented, NOT however at Oak Island Nova Scotia nor the Salt River in Arizona. Just from memory, one was found in Mexico on the coast, "deeply buried in sand", another off the coast of Honduras that is today a protected site, and yet another (the oldest of the lot) off the coast of the Bimini (if memory serves, correction welcome) and yet another in the Bay of Jars in Brazil. All of these have one thing in common, and it is North Africa, and the direct linkage to Phoenician peoples. I am including the western Phoenicians in that term, also called Punic empire. The only Roman shipwreck that I am aware of, has not been actually located, the big clue that it is there is in the Roman coins that keep washing ashore in Massachusetts at a specific location.

Anyway at this point I am perfectly willing to throw in the towel - for you are not offering any evidence to prop up the whole Calalus/Oz tale, we are supposed to just swallow it hook line and sinker, let our eyes go out of focus and dream of some epic and noble experiment in the primitive southwest, where a large colony of exiled Roman/Samaritan/Jews built an empire and then were subjected to a horrific holocaust by the Toltecs, whom as far as I could determine never trekked so far north as America at any time.

What does surprise me is that you and your cohorts have never bothered to look for a real Calalus in the only area where it COULD have existed, and that location is no where near Arizona or New Mexico. It is in central Mexico, the homelands of the real Toltecs, and the same general area where the only solid evidence of any Roman visitors has ever been found in the Americas on dry land - the puzzling stone statue head found in a pyramid at Calixtlahuaca; here is an abstract on it:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1304316/posts

Did it never occur to you that the real location of Calalus, might be in southern/central Mexico? The Tucson artifacts, even if they were real, could very well have ended up buried in Arizona after a LONG journey, which might even fit with the story line found inscribed on them. But no need for any 'holocaust' to have occurred, and the 'empire' may have been simply that they imposed themselves as a ruling class on a more primitive people, whom were not really primitive at all as they had built their own cities and had developed complex calendars and their own writing system etc. Compared to the lack of evidence in the Superstition range, southern Mexico abounds with ancient ruins and clear evidence that the ancient Mexicans had been in contact with SOME other culture that visited by sea, hence the need for actual lighthouses as are found in ancient Mesoamerican sites along the coast of Mexico. No such ruins with a lighthouse are found in the US.

I guess that one has to enter a sort of 'dream time' as the Australian aborigines put it, to imagine a real Calalus and make castles out of the rocky formations in the Superstitions. I honestly am sorry that I am not able to do that. I don't mind entertaining theories that are out of the ordinary and even not accepted by academics, (like ancient contact with the Americas for instance) but I have to have solid evidence and supporting records to believe in it. So far the only kind of documented evidence AND solid evidence you keep relying on are those Tucson artifacts, and to me they are more than a little sketchy. Heck we have been over this many times now - but when Dr Barry Fell, a self admitted diffusionist and academic prone to see Ogham writing in every scratch on a rock, pronounced the Tucson relics a modern fraud, doesn't that give you pause? Obviously not!

So thank you again Klondike, however it was a bit disappointing to find we are back to square ten. I would say square one, but this all started with some papers of Sims Ely and has grown now to include Oak Island, Atlantis and many other things which are clearly not related and often disconnected by thousands of years. Remember, Atlantis was destroyed circa 9.500 BC, and the Calalus artifacts supposedly date to around the 7th century AD. Over ten thousand years gap in the time line there. Even if some far-ranging Roman Samaritan explorers did happen on a hidden library of Atlantian scrolls, it is pretty much a certainty that they could NEVER read them. The closest related language was a dead language by the 7th century AD, so for any Roman speaking people the Atlantian written language would be akin to Martian. If only you could see things from our view, you might be able to grasp how it all sums up, to someone that is not able to just IMAGINE the whole thing as real.

The only conclusion I can make is that all of this is really just a historical-fantasy fiction novel you have been composing, and have been floating the ideas here to see how they do, and weaving into your tale every new mystery that turns up online and on TV. If that is the case, you will have a large and ready market for your book. If on the other hand, you believe that you have been presenting history, you are quite mistaken and perhaps it might help for you to re-read your own posts, but from the viewpoint of someone that has no belief in Calalus, and see if you find it all convincing.

Sorry to hear that you have lost much, and that apparently you have been wasting your time here trying to explain things, missing the whole point at the same time. You see Klondike, I would LOVE to believe that a real Calalus existed, that some ancient colony did come to Arizona and built cities etc, but the only evidence to support this tale are the Calalus artifacts, and they are almost certainly modern frauds. But perhaps you will one day decide to investigate the possibility of a real Calalus but in south central Mexico, where real Toltecs did have a real empire, and we will have a new angle to discuss. So if you had hoped to convince us that Calalus is real, there is a real "library" from Atlantis involved etc then your efforts have fallen very short. But it has always been interesting, and hope springs eternal that perhaps you do have that 'silver bullet' to prove your case.

Wishing you and yours a very Happy and prosperous New Year, please keep in mind that no matter how much we may disagree on this topic (or several for that matter) it has NO bearing whatsoever on friendship, at least not in my book, and if anything I posted has caused offence, my sincere apologies for no offence has been intended. Even the ribbing and jabs are INTENDED in good humor, though the written word often seems much more harsh than the spoken word. Good luck and good hunting to all reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Sign me disappointed, but always willing to hear you out,
Roy A. Decker ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:58 pm

PS one final thought here, but one PHOTO of ONE of those books from the library of Oz, would at least give us something to mull over. Can you post ONE photo of one of those books or scrolls or tablets? It might be a big help. Thanks in advance.
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:21 am

Hello Roy,

The library of Oz contained many things. Maps, plates made of copper and gold, gates to a far distant past. Art, well the list goes on. The language on those plates were not readable to our people. Only in recent times has a deciphering of the language become possible. What our people added while impressive was but a drop in a bucket that already over flowed. Our people could decipher enough of the maps for their purposes but little more.

At the time of the holocaust one of those maps lead our people east in the attempt of finding another gift left by the ancients. A gift if found would be a guarantee of our survival. That was not to be however and this gift still remains hidden in the mountains of what is now known as Georgia. Hidden I might add near the Etowah River at a point close to a small community named Auraria. Also near this community is a mine known as the Battle Branch Mine. A mine that was worked by a minor who`s first name is Jacob, the last name is debatable it seems.

Who knows maybe something will show up one day validating everything. Perhaps not. No one really knows for sure. Perhaps someone will one day visit Snaketown and dig a little deeper and find evidence of a people. The people who wrote: "Calalus an unknown land".

As far as books go. Those have already been written. The author did an excellent job it seems. :D

For now all that can be said has been said.

Happy Holidays and good luck in your efforts.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:49 am

Ben,

"As far as books go. Those have already been written. The author did an excellent job it seems".

Did you mean to write "books", as in more than one?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:58 am

Roy,

As always, your posts are clear, concise and polite. It seems I have always worn heavier boots as I tiptoe through these little literary minefields.

Ben has been avoiding posting the smallest piece of evidence to support his story for lo these many years. You would think that someone, so obviously intelligent, could cobble together some kind of convincing picture(s) to bolster his tale. Even a theft of someone else's obscure picture would, likely, work. I gave up on ever seeing such evidence long ago.

Happy New Year!

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:03 am

Ben once posted this picture of OZ:

Image

It was quickly removed, but it only took me a few minutes to find it on the Internet.

It was a good, if fruitless, try.

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:00 pm

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

As always, your posts are clear, concise and polite. It seems I have always worn heavier boots as I tiptoe through these little literary minefields.

Ben has been avoiding posting the smallest piece of evidence to support his story for lo these many years. You would think that someone, so obviously intelligent, could cobble together some kind of convincing picture(s) to bolster his tale. Even a theft of someone else's obscure picture would, likely, work. I gave up on ever seeing such evidence long ago.

Happy New Year!

Joe


Thanks for the very kind words amigo, and I do recall that photo but did not save it; in fact think it had been pulled by the time I got online and only the fact that you had caught it, allowed me to see it at all. It comes from a mine in Nevada if memory serves? Funny part is that two years or so ago we were in a mine in Arizona that has a spot that looks remarkably like that, but can not be the same as it is slightly different. It is an easy one to get to from a road and the last time I happened to visit it (it is on the way in to a more interesting area) some nitwit had pulled all but one of the supporting timbers out, to build a camp fire at the entrance! So I expect that mine won't be open too much longer.

I think Ben can appreciate that we are being honest with him. We could have pretended to believe everything, in order to get him to open up and then go on the attack to try to discredit him and everything associated. I know that I would sooner have someone be honest with me, whether we agree or not. I get the impression you almost have to believe in Calalus before you can see it, sort of like the fairies (not intending to be offensive with that term, there was quite an interesting flap in Britain in the late 1800s when photos of fairies surfaced, later discredited of course but one photo remains inexplicable) yet Ben has insisted all along that the ruins exist, the library, the whole she-bang, which is why I keep asking to see some solid proof. It is incredible to me that Ben would have studied these artifacts and ruins and NOT have taken multiple photos of them.

Side thing here but I am starting to wonder if there were not a real Calalus, however not in Arizona at all. The Toltec history does include warfare and conquest, their enemies not clearly defined, and again we do have not just one site with ancient ruins in the Toltec homeland but a multitude of them to choose from. If a ship or more than one from the Old World, full of Romans (or Byzantines to be more accurate) accidently crossed the Atlantic as ships occasionally do even in our historic times and became shipwrecked on the coast of Mexico near the Toltec homeland, we have a perfect set up to match the Tucson artifacts story line. Just one difference in that it is not in Arizona where the events occur. These Mediterranean and un-willing 'colonists' may have been viewed by the local tribes as god-like, as we have in the examples from the historic period, and thus could have set themselves up as a sort of ruling elite class. And like the similar examples we have in the historic period (conquest of the Aztecs) over time the local tribes or their neighbors came to realize these newcomers from the sea were no gods and overthrew them. If survivors of this were not able to retreat back to the Old World by sea, it is not illogical that they may have fled north, ending up in Arizona perhaps. All pure speculation of course but it does surprise me that someone as intelligent and educated as Ben would not have pursued this angle and researched it. Especially when we know the Toltec homeland to be in south central Mexico, and they are specifically named on the Tucson artifacts.

In other words it is POSSIBLE that the Tucson artifacts are CASTINGS of real artifacts found or recovered somewhere else, perhaps even in Arizona although really we probably should be looking in Mexico. Here is a map (from Wiki so keep that in mind for accuracy) for our readers that never post:
Image

Could the truth of the Tucson artifacts be that the discoverers had really found cast COPIES of originals? If so, what happened to the originals? You know that until recent times, it was not at all uncommon for treasure hunters to dig and hunt for relics, with no permits or any rules at all, and then sell, trade, swap or otherwise dispose of their finds to anyone with money. It was not illegal for some time so not throwing stones for the practice, though it still happens and now is very illegal. In other words we may be discussing a set of replicas someone made with an eye to sell replicas of very real artifacts, then thought better of it (finding out he or she had illegally obtained the original relics and that copies would help the police find him) so buried them to get rid of them. Considering the time period that the lead tests pointed to (car batteries, 1920s) new laws were coming into effect about digging, selling and trading antiquities. I know the US had an Antiquities Act by 1906 but what about Mexican law? I do not know - and it is believable to me that someone digging and selling antiquities in Mexico, suddenly finding his activities made illegal, might wish to dispose of evidence north of the border.

I tried to point out to Ben that some of the incidents of the story he has posted are describing crimes - it is not legal to sneak ancient artifacts our of the USA, nor is it legal to sneak them into South Africa, and he was deeply offended by what I pointed out. I had and have no intention of turning him in, and in fact he has posted it for the world to read on the internet so if that smuggling really occurred, it would behoove those involved to try to rectify matters ASAP. But as you pointed out, it would hardly bring the police knocking on the door if a photo of one of the Oz tablets were posted. Plus there is no law against possession of copies or REPLICAS.

Oh well perhaps Ben will publish the discoveries, as SHOULD be done if they are genuine, and provide all the evidence that even the worst skeptics could not deny, and have the last laugh on all of us. Stranger things have happened!

Well I am supposed to be working on something instead of soaking up coffee and boring my friends online - so will close here. I hope all is well with you Joe and with you Ben, and to anyone reading our discussions. There are at least several other people that follow this but will not post, I have tried to get them to join in without luck so far, perhaps that will change soon. I hope you have a great day,
Roy ~ "Oroblanco"
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Tue Dec 29, 2015 12:06 pm

For some reason that map did not post so will try again:
Image
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:05 pm

Gentlemen:

The photograph that Joe posted came from a mine in Eldorado Canyon, Nevada. Believe it is the Techatticup. A lot of Gold was taken from that mine, some of it quite beautiful. Seems we posted the photograph as a guide to illustrate a location that was close to what we refer to as Oz 2. Oz 2 was important because of its location on the Colorado River and the foundries there that produced weapons and in the end the Tucson Artifacts.

Eldorado Canyon was also important because of its nearness to Boulder City and the city manager that was active in the initial searches there for Oz 2. Also it was a way station for the transport of gold from the Superstitions to the Mexican mine on the Comstock where it was processed.

The Tucson Artifacts are nothing more or less than a map home and a history of the people in the new world up to the time of the holocaust. It is also a link to the library of Oz as previously demonstrated.

As far as the location of the library we have been quite clear and also quite clear as to the location of Rhoda.

Hello Joe,

The books I am referencing are no. 2 and no 3. These works are currently not available for general circulation.

Did you folks ever decide to make public the Bent/McGee correspondence?


When our young people attain the age of 18 they participate in a class. This class lasts for 30 days. We teach them in detail what they have seen in our museum and been taught by their families their entire lives. They are provided several texts as study material that are returned at the end of each day. Those texts include:

1. Timaeus, Critias, the extended version
2. A history of Oz, 227 pages.
3. A history of the People, the voyage of discovery, the creation of Circlestone, the holocaust,the Tucson Artifacts. 349 pages.
4. The Lost Dutchman Mine, Sims Ely. Published by Eyre&Spottiswoode, London
5. Maps of the ancient world from the time of Atlantis till the destruction of Calalus. Modern Maps of the Superstition Mountains, Southern Nevada,(Eldorado Canyon, Spirit Mountain in particular) and Arizona showing the locations of temples and cities of Calalus and the ancients.


Roy,

As far as Mexico goes it seems fairly clear that some of our people made it there, but we have unsuccessful in locating folks there.

Belief is a powerful tool in understanding something. Belief will aid the intellect in making connections that the intellect in and of itself cannot make.

For example what does it mean to say Calalus is? What exactly does the is refer to. If the intellect is left along it simply looks for a thing that obviously the intellect cannot grasp. If Calalus and the library is a process then the imagination can guide your intellect to what has always been right in front of you. The ancients understood this. :idea:

Regards,

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Tue Dec 29, 2015 6:53 pm

klondike wrote:Gentlemen:

The photograph that Joe posted came from a mine in Eldorado Canyon, Nevada. Believe it is the Techatticup. A lot of Gold was taken from that mine, some of it quite beautiful. Seems we posted the photograph as a guide to illustrate a location that was close to what we refer to as Oz 2. Oz 2 was important because of its location on the Colorado River and the foundries there that produced weapons and in the end the Tucson Artifacts.

Eldorado Canyon was also important because of its nearness to Boulder City and the city manager that was active in the initial searches there for Oz 2. Also it was a way station for the transport of gold from the Superstitions to the Mexican mine on the Comstock where it was processed.

The Tucson Artifacts are nothing more or less than a map home and a history of the people in the new world up to the time of the holocaust. It is also a link to the library of Oz as previously demonstrated.

As far as the location of the library we have been quite clear and also quite clear as to the location of Rhoda.

Hello Joe,

The books I am referencing are no. 2 and no 3. These works are currently not available for general circulation.

Did you folks ever decide to make public the Bent/McGee correspondence?


When our young people attain the age of 18 they participate in a class. This class lasts for 30 days. We teach them in detail what they have seen in our museum and been taught by their families their entire lives. They are provided several texts as study material that are returned at the end of each day. Those texts include:

1. Timaeus, Critias, the extended version
2. A history of Oz, 227 pages.
3. A history of the People, the voyage of discovery, the creation of Circlestone, the holocaust,the Tucson Artifacts. 349 pages.
4. The Lost Dutchman Mine, Sims Ely. Published by Eyre&Spottiswoode, London
5. Maps of the ancient world from the time of Atlantis till the destruction of Calalus. Modern Maps of the Superstition Mountains, Southern Nevada,(Eldorado Canyon, Spirit Mountain in particular) and Arizona showing the locations of temples and cities of Calalus and the ancients.


Roy,

As far as Mexico goes it seems fairly clear that some of our people made it there, but we have unsuccessful in locating folks there.

Belief is a powerful tool in understanding something. Belief will aid the intellect in making connections that the intellect in and of itself cannot make.

For example what does it mean to say Calalus is? What exactly does the is refer to. If the intellect is left along it simply looks for a thing that obviously the intellect cannot grasp. If Calalus and the library is a process then the imagination can guide your intellect to what has always been right in front of you. The ancients understood this. :idea:

Regards,

Klondike


Two items there Klondike, first you again refer to an "extended version" of Critias. I have not been able to find any such extended version of Critias. Who or whom was the author or editor that added to Plato's dialogue? It obviously was not Plato. I have asked you to post even an extract of the extended portion, which you have ignored several times. So now I will settle for the name of the editor or author that has added this 'extension' which you keep referring to, thanks in advance.

Side thing here but it is funny you would choose the very edition of Ely's book that I own. I had no idea they were at all rare or unusual until fairly recently. Why that particular edition, if I may ask? I have compared it to the American edition and can see no real differences.

The other thing is that if you must believe in Calalus to grasp it, then it almost certainly never existed. Like the fairies, in that sense. I have known a couple of individuals that had very strong beliefs in some otherwise very odd things, like the fairies, and they could "see" them all the time, and their handiwork in every flower that blossomed. Meanwhile flowers will blossom under glass where no fairies could ever reach them, so long as the rest of their needs were met. Likewise with Calalus, if it is or was a real place, with real people, then they would have left us LOTS of evidence of their existence. Not just a handful of relics that now I am thinking are probably lead casts made in the 1920s. There should be a bread crumb trail, so to speak.

To give an example of a parallel, since we now have Oak Island getting mixed in with Calalus, Henry Sinclair allegedly sailed to America around 1320 AD. There is a written legend of this voyage in Old World records. If memory serves it is called the Zeno narratives. (Correction welcome) And sure enough, there is evidence IN America to match this legendary voyage, among the Micmac tribe we find the culture-hero figure {Glooscap )that came from the sea and even "held court"; then there is the Westford Knight, <a stone carving found in Massachusetts> which is now becoming so worn away by weathering that it will not be visible at all to the naked eye in a few years, which seems to mark the burial site for one of Sinclair's knights that was killed there. There are ancient ruins of what appears to be a Medieval village in Nova Scotia
which is otherwise inexplicable. The mysterious stone tower in Rhode Island has also been suggested as the work of Sinclair as well. At any rate we have not only stone carvings, local native legends, a real historical person AND that key piece of evidence, a WRITTEN RECORD from the OLD world that matches.

IF Calalus really happened, then there must be a written record of an 'exodus' or the emigration of the colony from what must have been the Byzantine empire. We have fairly good records from the Byzantines, in spite of the mass destruction of libraries and records with the fall of Constantinople in the 1400s, so if such a naval expedition DID set out, there is a record of it. I am not an expert in Byzantine history, really they never held much interest for me even though it is a rich history. Byzantine sailing ships were not as good as the ships of the Roman empire of centuries earlier, in fact they were considerably smaller and certainly not built for sailing the open oceans. But if a colony were indeed sent out, or departed because they were fleeing the Ottoman conquest, this should be mentioned in SOME Byzantine record. How these ships were able to sail past the straits of Gibraltar is another issue, for they were controlled and tightly guarded by Moorish forces. I have asked for any kind of documentation to support this story before, and continue to request it - if you know of some such record, I would appreciate if you could share it.

Last bit - I get the impression you think that we (or I, singularly) are intellectually incapable of understanding Calalus, and can assure you that it is certainly NOT outside of Joe's mental capabilities, nor is it so incomprehensible to me. What IS incomprehensible is why you continue to believe in it, yet refuse to provide solid proof that would very much tilt the scales and perhaps enlist two more 'believers' if you will. Like for instance with this 'extended version' of Critias, why not post the extended portion? Surely the copyright has expired, if it was really composed or written by Plato himself.

I can't seem to get you to understand the issue here. But let me give you an example of some 'legend' that I am 100% convinced is true and real, yet virtually all of academia (large "A" academia) is of the opinion that it never existed. Norumbega. In fact I am convinced that it was discovered, and fairly well proven to exist in Massachusetts. You can read the book that convinced me online (free) at:

https://books.google.com/books?id=c2ETAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q&f=false

So I am not incapable of "belief" in something that most people deny and refuse to accept as real. Thus far, the case you have presented for Calalus has fallen very short of convincing me (or Joe for that matter) but if you can provide something to substantiate it, I am sure that both Joe and I would very much appreciate it. Thank you in advance,

Roy (Oroblanco)

PS for the record, Cactusjumper Joe is very much capable of grasping a topic and becoming a believer, regardless of what the majority of people believe. If necessary I am sure he could point out examples.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:36 pm

Hello Roy,

Did you ever consider the possibility that this dialogue is structured precisely because you and Joe are very, very intelligent folks.

A number of clues have been posted throughout the years that some have connected and others have not. What we have found remarkable about all of this is the folks who have figured all of out this have connected the data in a natural way(for them) that has taken them to the end point. Like the ancients they think in terms of connectivity and process more than things. For example by thinking of Calalus as a process of becoming instead of an object all of the particulars fit together in the whole.

Another example is the symbol above the library of Oz. The same symbol appears on the Tucson Artifacts as a designation of the three temples we have mentioned in other places. Also it appears repeatedly on the Artifacts as a root symbol of the letters OL. These two letters have been misinterpreted as the author of the artifacts. This is patently false since we have previously shown that the Tucson Artifacts were created by two craftsmen each with distinctly different levels of ability. Furthermore the supposed dinosaur that was inscribed on the artifacts well that was a replication of a carving on the wall of the library made by the ancients. Our people used that symbol because of the deep respect and awe for a being they had no way of directly knowing.

Connecting all of this takes you to the inescapable conclusion than Oz is. And if it doesn`t then that is ok.

As far as Ely`s book goes that edition is very, very special. The copy in my library comes from KIngston`s Ltd. in what was one time Rhodesia. We have always used that edition because of certain things that exist that are well hard to explain. The author left clues to a special place there. Hope you enjoy it. So Roy how do you explain a book that was purchased in Rhodesia being used in our class. Perhaps because the class is in South Africa.

Critias. As we have said before Critias was finished by Plato. The portions not in the public view was what lead our people to what would become the Southwestern United States. Other complete editions are maintained in the Vatican, a major U.S. based church and I suspect other places.

I would like to comment on several other points in play at the moment. As I indicated the LDM that produced the ore that was tested at UNR should be found fairly soon. This is really an outstanding accomplishment. A tip of the hat is in order.

Also regarding recent revelations regarding the stone maps. As you know I have been very critical of the circus atmosphere surrounding that whole business. I believe folks should be more respectful of the past and making money off of all of this is well sad. Having said that the description of the original stones as being smallish and defining a rather extensive trail system gives me pause. I am afraid those stones are perhaps very, very real and if there is anyway to test the age the results will be startling. Anyway good luck to those folks. The reaction of the family to all of this is perfectly understandable given the magnitude of those small stones. They truly are a gate if they are what I suspect. Good luck to them.

May the stars keep you safe.


Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Wed Dec 30, 2015 1:21 am

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

Did you ever consider the possibility that this dialogue is structured precisely because you and Joe are very, very intelligent folks.

A number of clues have been posted throughout the years that some have connected and others have not. What we have found remarkable about all of this is the folks who have figured all of out this have connected the data in a natural way(for them) that has taken them to the end point. Like the ancients they think in terms of connectivity and process more than things. For example by thinking of Calalus as a process of becoming instead of an object all of the particulars fit together in the whole.


This sounds like it has all been a game for you. Not a serious discussion.

<you also wrote>

Another example is the symbol above the library of Oz. The same symbol appears on the Tucson Artifacts as a designation of the three temples we have mentioned in other places. Also it appears repeatedly on the Artifacts as a root symbol of the letters OL. These two letters have been misinterpreted as the author of the artifacts. This is patently false since we have previously shown that the Tucson Artifacts were created by two craftsmen each with distinctly different levels of ability. Furthermore the supposed dinosaur that was inscribed on the artifacts well that was a replication of a carving on the wall of the library made by the ancients. Our people used that symbol because of the deep respect and awe for a being they had no way of directly knowing.

Connecting all of this takes you to the inescapable conclusion than Oz is. And if it doesn`t then that is ok.


Actually we have not been discussing the dinosaur for some time. I don't have that much of an issue with it, since dinosaur bones have been found in ancient Greek temples dating to the fifth century BC, so clearly the ancients had found dinosaur bones. They even guessed what some dinosaurs must have looked like, fairly accurately (with some glaring exceptions). However we have yet to see any evidence of any of the three temples, nor the library you keep referring to. Also another point here but will return to that.

<you also wrote>
As far as Ely`s book goes that edition is very, very special. The copy in my library comes from KIngston`s Ltd. in what was one time Rhodesia. We have always used that edition because of certain things that exist that are well hard to explain. The author left clues to a special place there. Hope you enjoy it. So Roy how do you explain a book that was purchased in Rhodesia being used in our class. Perhaps because the class is in South Africa.


I don't see an issue with where a book was purchased, for use in a class. One might wonder why and how I happen to have a UK edition copy of the book, when I reside in the US. Not an issue for me. What is the name of the school where these classes are being taught? But as to this game of more "clues" for us to hunt for, I am sorry to inform you but really I do not have endless amounts of free time. In fact what free time I get, should be spent on a very different project, which takes up most of my computer time. This is a pastime to discuss. So unless you wish to point it out, this is rather silly.

<you also wrote>
Critias. As we have said before Critias was finished by Plato. The portions not in the public view was what lead our people to what would become the Southwestern United States. Other complete editions are maintained in the Vatican, a major U.S. based church and I suspect other places.


It is easy to SAY that Critias was finished by Plato. It is also easy to say that it is in the Vatican. Please provide some proof or this looks like yet more games. Do you really have a longer version of Critias or not? If you can not post anything to prove it, then I will get the impression it is not true. To continue,

<you also wrote>

I would like to comment on several other points in play at the moment. As I indicated the LDM that produced the ore that was tested at UNR should be found fairly soon. This is really an outstanding accomplishment. A tip of the hat is in order.


A bit premature, considering that the person searching, may not even go in the direction you refer to. Secondly, from what you have posted, it certainly sounds like the ore tested at UNR did not come from Jacob Waltz's mine. I don't pass out the congratulations without seeing some kind of actual accomplishment first, as opposed to potential accomplishment.

<you also wrote>
Also regarding recent revelations regarding the stone maps. As you know I have been very critical of the circus atmosphere surrounding that whole business. I believe folks should be more respectful of the past and making money off of all of this is well sad. Having said that the description of the original stones as being smallish and defining a rather extensive trail system gives me pause. I am afraid those stones are perhaps very, very real and if there is anyway to test the age the results will be startling. Anyway good luck to those folks. The reaction of the family to all of this is perfectly understandable given the magnitude of those small stones. They truly are a gate if they are what I suspect. Good luck to them.

May the stars keep you safe.


Klondike


Actually I don't hold much interest in the stone maps. I fail to see any connection with the Tucson artifacts.

By the way Klondike, you keep referring to "our people" as if there were survivors of Calalus, and/or Atlantis by extension, and that you are a part of this group of descendants? How can you trace your lineage to a people that were subjected to such a horrific holocaust that no trace of them can be found today? :? I could as easily claim to be a descendant of the royal family of the kingdom of Lyonesse. Do you expect everyone to just accept that you and your people are the descendants of Calalus, without providing any kind of proof? Isn't that a little bit unreasonable on your part? It does make me wonder about these classes being taught. 8O Is it being taught as mythology? I would not have any problem with that approach.

Wishing you a very Happy New Year, too bad this seems to have been a game after all. Might have been something very different.

Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:14 am

Hello Roy,

I believe the following post says pretty much everything;

Gentlemen,

While it is always pleasing to pursue discussions that reinforce what you already believe perhaps the truth can be better served by embarking on a journey who`s destination is not yet known.

A close reading of the Bent work will diffuse many of the arguments that have been presented regarding the so called planting of the artifacts by their discoverers. Pay particular attention to the discovery of several of the artifacts and the role played by folks who were supposedly planting the artifacts. As far as confessions go a close reading of the Burgess article will probably result in more questions than answers.

Keep in mind that respected folks in the scientific community believe these are the real deal and acquaint yourself with their efforts. One should not dismiss the efforts of Covey nor the beliefs of Hardaker that both believe the artifacts were not planted. In all fairness Hardaker believes the artifacts were not planted but were not a relic of a Roman/Jewish Community referred to as Calalus.

Perhaps as a starting point consider where there is agreement. Calalus no longer exists this we can all agree. As to whether it ever did should be for you an open question. True scholarship will be uncomfortable but it will open a gate that might amaze you.

As far as the relationship between Calalus and the Superstitons a good starting place might be to research the history of the naming of Battle Axe road and the reading of the small work, "Arizona in the fifties".

Obviously having access to the Bent/ Mcgee correspondence may provide some information. I would pay particular attention to the Mcgee comments in one of her articles regarding the location of certain sites in the Superstitions that speak of an ancient presence. Also there are signs high up in Boulder Canyon that speak not only to the Tucson Artifacts but to the presence of a more ancient people.

Having said this if you are only interested in proving a hoax I can only smile and wish you well. If you are interested in finding the truth you may or not succeed but you will be better for the journey. For us Calalus, the Library of Oz, and the Canyon of Souls are very, very real. If what you discover takes you down a different trail that is fine. Go there in good spirit.


Roy

Finding Oz is a journey. Connecting the dots will occurre when you start the journey. That journey starts with imagination and beliefs. Then the dots will connect themselves as you see the whole. You took your first start along the way with your question regarding the Ely book. Now connect that revelation with a certain city manager in Boulder City Nevada, Eldorado Canyon, and soon you will find yourself with Jim Bark and Sims Ely as they climb an ancient trail up Horse Mesa. On that trail is a gate to the ancients. :D

Perhaps then one day you will find your way to a small museum in South Africa, simply knock on the door and ask for klondike. I will be happy to give you a tour of your history.

A new year is upon us and for me it is a time to return home. I could not be happier.

Good luck and I wish you well on your way. A way of the truth.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:42 pm

Wow. Sometimes I get the impression that we must be communicating through at least two translators that are horribly incompetent. :lol:


klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

I believe the following post says pretty much everything; <SNIP>


Your penchant for RE-posting OLD posts is rather offensive and rude. Shall I start doing that too? Like with the numerous un-answered questions, many of them simple ones?


<you also wrote>
Roy

Finding Oz is a journey. Connecting the dots will occurre when you start the journey. That journey starts with imagination and beliefs. Then the dots will connect themselves as you see the whole. You took your first start along the way with your question regarding the Ely book. Now connect that revelation with a certain city manager in Boulder City Nevada, Eldorado Canyon, and soon you will find yourself with Jim Bark and Sims Ely as they climb an ancient trail up Horse Mesa. On that trail is a gate to the ancients. :D


Revelation? What revelation? That you are using a rather less common copy of Sims Ely's book to teach class? I fail to discern any dots to connect. Especially with the LDM and Calalus, which you do rather freely. Oh and by the way, although as far as I know, no one else is aware of it, that "ancient trail" leading up Horse Mesa is almost certainly the work of a gang of Mexican horse thieves whom were very active in the region in the late 1860s and early 1870s. Yes indeed they were keeping horses sort of 'trapped' up there, and had chosen their site well for protection against Indians or lawmen or a posse. But like a great deal of the 'history' involving the Superstitions, this has been mis-identified as somehow linked with the Peraltas and Waltz. And there is indeed evidence of an ancient and mysterious people in the Superstitions, namely the Hohokam. You however seem happy to ignore them and their engineering skills entirely.

<you also wrote.

Perhaps then one day you will find your way to a small museum in South Africa, simply knock on the door and ask for klondike. I will be happy to give you a tour of your history.

A new year is upon us and for me it is a time to return home. I could not be happier.

Good luck and I wish you well on your way. A way of the truth.

Klondike


I wish you well in your journey home, and should I ever find myself in South Africa, I would be more than happy to stop in at your museum and ask for you. HOWEVER.... you have neglected to answer my simple question as to what is the NAME of that school? What is the name of the museum? What town or city are they located in? Perhaps you missed my earlier questions, so I repeated them for you.

You keep trying to get me (and Joe) to play this game, to try to figure out what the heck you are trying to hint at. I do not have the time or inclination to play that game. Even if I had the time, the very fact that someone would be trying to thus be less than straightforward raises red flags for me.
[img]http://www.santabarbaraca.gov/images/RFWsign_1.jpg
[/img]

CAN you answer my questions, or must you resort to subterfuge, hints and similar games? If you think that I represent some danger you are quite mistaken. I don't even live in Arizona or South Africa. I am not a law enforcement officer, although I did work for a department of corrections that was years ago. So I am not trying to trick you into anything. On the other hand, you have been trying to trick me (and Joe) into going off on some snipe hunt for several years now.

So I will try this one more time, in hopes that our incompetent translators will get it right:

What is the name of the school where this rather mythological version of history is being taught?

What is the name of the small museum?

Please post some portion of your supposedly "extended" version of Critias?

Please post at least one photo of one of the texts from the "Oz library"?

How many texts were in this library?

What kind of writing was used in the Atlantian texts?

Can you post one paragraph from one of the Atlantian texts?

Where is the record of this exodus of people from the Byzantine empire, leaving the Old World never to be heard of again?

This tale of Calalus has many issues, not the least of which is the sheer lack of supporting evidence in Arizona. For me that is another red flag, as most frauds are 'islands' with no supporting evidence in the region. Worse, reference is made in the Calalus inscriptions to the Toltecs, which never occupied any part of Arizona. You have claimed that these quasi-Roman ships were sailing up the Salt river. The Salt river empties in to the Colorado, and then into the gulf of California. How did these ships get there? Did they sail around South America or cross the Indian and Pacific oceans?

Thank you in advance, although I do not entertain any high hopes that you will now answer the same questions you have ignored and dodged repeatedly. That behavior certainly has not helped your credibility amigo. I prefer things are kept straightforward - especially when dealing with history. Oh I like to play games too, in fact my wife and I have a collection of wargames, which we play in part to 'experiment' and see what could have happened historically, for instance what might have happened had France managed to hang on in 1940, or if the Normandy invasion had only been partially successful. But they are games not being presented to the public as real history. You keep insisting that Calalus is real and historical and have proven incapable of providing solid proof. If you must believe in it to see the whole, then it is myth and not even as good a myth as the Greek gods. Real history has real evidence that proves it. Hence you can still see the marks left on the landscape from the trenches of the first world war. To put it bluntly, as the old miners camp saying goes, either s*** or get off the pot! :mrgreen:

I hope you have a safe and pleasant journey home, wishing you and everyone reading this a very Happy New Year.
Oroblanco

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:00 pm

Roy,

"And there is indeed evidence of an ancient and mysterious people in the Superstitions, namely the Hohokam. You however seem happy to ignore them and their engineering skills entirely."

I believe the Salado Indians would be better suited for your example. The Hohokam were, principally, found in a riverine environment. Gathering food or hunting was primarily done where they could make the round trip in one day, or less. The exception would be hunting trips for Bighorn Sheep which could be found in the Estrella and Superstition mountains.

My main source for that information is "The Hohokam......" by Emil W. Haury.

I think it's way past time to give up on Ben.....etc, for anything that would back up his story. Still......I have enjoyed the trip.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:53 pm

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

"And there is indeed evidence of an ancient and mysterious people in the Superstitions, namely the Hohokam. You however seem happy to ignore them and their engineering skills entirely."

I believe the Salado Indians would be better suited for your example. The Hohokam were, principally, found in a riverine environment. Gathering food or hunting was primarily done where they could make the round trip in one day, or less. The exception would be hunting trips for Bighorn Sheep which could be found in the Estrella and Superstition mountains.

My main source for that information is "The Hohokam......" by Emil W. Haury.

I think it's way past time to give up on Ben.....etc, for anything that would back up his story. Still......I have enjoyed the trip.

Take care,

Joe


Have to respectfully disagree, the irrigation canals seem to run from the Superstitions right toward the ancient Hohokam settlements, and the ball courts etc are more likely linked to the Hohokam than to the Salado. I am NO expert on the Salado but do not recall any mention of their ever having used irrigation in a big way? Correction is welcome, you probably have more references at hand than I do on them.

I am trying to give Klondike et al one last chance. I don't expect anything other than the same stuff we keep getting, including re-posting OLD posts to "this says it all" when it really doesn't SAY anything to prove the case for Calalus, which now includes not only Atlantis but perhaps Oak Island and Georgia, the Peralta stones and the LDM. It can only be a confabulation into a fictional pseudo-history, he can not be serious about much of this. If he really believes this story line he has posted here, I cannot fathom what convinced him it was all true, as he can not post a single photo of a single text from this library of Oz, for a single example of many requests for evidence that he has habitually ignored as if nothing had been asked.

Also trying to keep it civil, for really some of this is tiresome and rude like re-posting old posts instead of composing a reply. Can't understand how a clearly intelligent person could be so incapable of seeing this from a different viewpoint. When someone wants to change history, it takes evidence not some mental state of "seeing" it in the mind's eye. The constant little games are another rather exasperating aspect, why he does not simply put things in straightforward language is beyond me. :roll:

Anyway I won't keep trying forever, will have to wait and see if Klondike has anything to back up his story of Calalus/OZ or not. I am not holding my breath.

Wishing you and Carolyn a very Happy New Year, hope this will be the best year of your lives.
Roy
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:47 pm

Roy,

The Salado did practice irrigation methods and, at least in the area along the salt river and the Tonto Basin, there were no ball courts associated with their culture. That may be due to the small populations in those areas.

Have a great New Year.....

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:56 pm

Hello Roy, Hello Joe,

In my humble opinion thinking comes from knowing the right questions to ask and that shows the imagination is at work.

Roy was the first one to pick up on the significance of the Ely book. That clue simply lay there for years and until Roy`s observation no one sensed something else is going on here:

"Side thing here but it is funny you would choose the very edition of Ely's book that I own. I had no idea they were at all rare or unusual until fairly recently. Why that particular edition, if I may ask? I have compared it to the American edition and can see no real differences. "

The response was:

As far as Ely`s book goes that edition is very, very special. The copy in my library comes from KIngston`s Ltd. in what was one time Rhodesia. We have always used that edition because of certain things that exist that are well hard to explain. The author left clues to a special place there. Hope you enjoy it. So Roy how do you explain a book that was purchased in Rhodesia being used in our class. Perhaps because the class is in South Africa.

Roy`s response was:

I don't see an issue with where a book was purchased, for use in a class. One might wonder why and how I happen to have a UK edition copy of the book, when I reside in the US. Not an issue for me. What is the name of the school where these classes are being taught? But as to this game of more "clues" for us to hunt for, I am sorry to inform you but really I do not have endless amounts of free time. In fact what free time I get, should be spent on a very different project, which takes up most of my computer time. This is a pastime to discuss. So unless you wish to point it out, this is rather silly.

You see Roy just for a moment you opened up to the possibility that something is unique about that particular book, but you recoiled into the interpretations that are comfortable. For you Roy this is only a past time and you do not have endless amount of free time. And that is ok, but if you had faced what is right in front of you your next question should be what makes this book unique. I would have answered and posted a document showing the book did in fact come from Rhodesia. But what is really important is the comments made by a gatekeeper on the opposite page. You would easily recognized the individual. He is a legend in the dutch hunting community.

This then would open up for you another gate. What is this person doing in Rhodesia. No one ever realized this person was ever even out of the states. He taught at the library.

You see we have placed such clues through out our posts over the last 10 years. By asking the right question the trail leads deeper into the mysteries of the Superstitions. When folks show us no learning is occurring we simply walk away till another day. What is funny is on many occassions we have pointed questions out and well put a 80 mile fastball down the middle of the plate. Seems only very rarely has someone knocked it out of the park.

Gentlemen it was always about the questions. The answers take care of themselves.

And now after 10 plus years it is time to go home. And that will happen very, very quickly.

Good luck to both of you and if you have the time connect the dots but now you will have to do it on your own. And if you do not that is ok. There are many histories in the world. It is a good thing we saved this one. It is the root of the tree.

May the stars keep your safe.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:27 pm

Ben,

I have both first edition, U.S. and English, and there is one striking difference in them. In the English version, there is an extra page in the front of the book. In it the author, Ely, states: "The author of this book first heard the story from Jacob Waltz......" That page is not in the American version, not even in my signed first edition.

Whoever wrote that page did not know the true history of the mine. He also stated that "But every man who has set out to look for this mine since 1895 has come to a violent end"

Nothing in either version has anything to do with South Africa.

Keep 'em coming, as we love hitting them out of the park. :)

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:12 pm

klondike wrote:Hello Roy, Hello Joe,

In my humble opinion thinking comes from knowing the right questions to ask and that shows the imagination is at work.


See what I mean Klondike? Imagination. This has all been a game for you, with the 'clues' and 'questions' that we are supposed to play along and it is a long drawn out guessing game that is supposed to convince us that Calalus is real, Oz is real, the library, etc. It never occurred to you that we were not playing?

To continue:
<you wrote>

Roy was the first one to pick up on the significance of the Ely book <snip> <I am going to pass over this as it is more game playing>
You see we have placed such clues through out our posts over the last 10 years. By asking the right question the trail leads deeper into the mysteries of the Superstitions. When folks show us no learning is occurring we simply walk away till another day. What is funny is on many occassions we have pointed questions out and well put a 80 mile fastball down the middle of the plate. Seems only very rarely has someone knocked it out of the park.

Gentlemen it was always about the questions. The answers take care of themselves.

And now after 10 plus years it is time to go home. And that will happen very, very quickly.

Good luck to both of you and if you have the time connect the dots but now you will have to do it on your own. And if you do not that is ok. There are many histories in the world. It is a good thing we saved this one. It is the root of the tree.

May the stars keep your safe.

Klondike


I am thinking that you were not aware that Sims Ely is listed as the author, but that an editor really arranged the book and composed it into book form? This editor had quite an effect on the outcome of what we can read, because the MSS as Ely had written it, was really a disconnected collection of stories and notes, that did not tell a story and was quite disjointed. The editor fixed that so we have a nice readable book. Perhaps the best one on the Lost Dutchman legend. However there is nothing in it to link to Calalus. If you are seeing a connection, it may well be a misperception.

It is a funny thing, some people never make mistakes. At least they will not admit to them in any way. I have never had an issue with it, and I know that Joe has freely admitted when he was wrong. Have you ever been mistaken Klondike?

So how about those questions I asked you above? To use your habit of repeatedly posting the same words, I will try again:

So I will try this one more time, in hopes that our incompetent translators will get it right:

What is the name of the school where this rather mythological version of history is being taught?

What is the name of the small museum?

Please post some portion of your supposedly "extended" version of Critias?

Please post at least one photo of one of the texts from the "Oz library"?

How many texts were in this library?

What kind of writing was used in the Atlantian texts?

Can you post one paragraph from one of the Atlantian texts?

Where is the record of this exodus of people from the Byzantine empire, leaving the Old World never to be heard of again?

This tale of Calalus has many issues, not the least of which is the sheer lack of supporting evidence in Arizona. For me that is another red flag, as most frauds are 'islands' with no supporting evidence in the region. Worse, reference is made in the Calalus inscriptions to the Toltecs, which never occupied any part of Arizona. You have claimed that these quasi-Roman ships were sailing up the Salt river. The Salt river empties in to the Colorado, and then into the gulf of California. How did these ships get there? Did they sail around South America or cross the Indian and Pacific oceans?

I hope you are not fleeing the discussion due to it becoming uncomfortable for you, rest assured there are NO hostile intentions from this end. However as you pointed out it has now been ten years, a new year is about to dawn and if this discussion is not going to be productive in showing some solid proof of Calalus being real (and by extension, the rest of the now complicated story) I am not going to keep trying. I could get farther arguing with Cactusjumper Joe, and since I know he has a rather impressive library, as with that bit on the Salado-vs-Hohokam issue above, I know he can pull up the relevant information and we can continue. With you, it is always you trying to manipulate us into doing what you wish, to guess at hints and imagine things. Even hiking into places that are not going to result in anything rewarding in a financial way. To put it bluntly I have had enough hiking in the Superstitions without finding gold to suit me.

So you know where I stand - PLEASE post some kind of solid evidence that Calalus is real, or a photo of one of those texts from the library you say existed in the Superstitions. Can you do that? Or are you going to keep dodging, playing mind games and trying to divert the discussion? By the way, internet service is now available in South Africa, and pretty much most places that have phone service world wide. Even where there is no phone service, you can often get internet service via satellite. In fact we had it ourselves at our place in the Sulphur hills, as there was no service of any kind there. So you should be able to continue a discussion even with some interruptions. Of course if the only reason you would wish to participate in a discussion is to play more games, then have no worries for I won't be playing along if you were posting from Antarctica.

Now to argue with Joe! :mrgreen:

I am not convinced - while I will certainly grant that there is a definite overlap in the territories of the Salado and Hohokam, it appears that the Hohokam predated the Salado by centuries. Also they had ball courts dotting the region, some quite close to the Superstitions, which is why I was caught off-guard when Blindbowman claimed he had found one IN the Superstitions. There is a reasonable possibility that one or more may well exist inside the Wilderness Area.

Side thing here but while trying to find a copy of the map showing the locations of the various ball courts found, ran across this interesting article at the AJ public library:
http://www.ajpl.org/archaeological%20society.pdf

Unfortunately I can not seem to locate that map, you may have a copy in fact, it has been posted on 'another forum' some time ago when we were discussing the topic with BB. As far as I know, only the Hohokam in Arizona build ball courts, and the presence of them would point to Hohokam rather than Salado culture.


Wishing you both a very Happy New Year, though I will check back again to see if we can make progress or if I should give up on this before the new year.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Wed Dec 30, 2015 11:15 pm

Hmm I see that I should have phrased that one sentence,

"As far as I know, the only culture within Arizona to build ball courts were the Hohokam"

That is what I intended to mean, unfortunately we can not edit our posts here. Sorry about that!
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Thu Dec 31, 2015 10:01 pm

Okay even I can get the picture. 2015 wraps this up for me, have plenty of other things demanding my time and attention.

Thank you Klondike and your friends, and Joe, and the others whom have participated at various times but rarely post in recent times, for the long and very interesting discussion. By the way I believe Garry Cundiff had made the McGee -Bent correspondence public some time ago. Just Google it if you want to see, and I may be wrong about that.

Wishing you all a very Happy and prosperous New Year, good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca