Yellow Jackets

FRIENDLY, general interest, non LDM discussions with other forum members.
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Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:25 pm

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

Good to hear you folks are getting good weather in the Dakota`s. Visited a friend several years ago in Montana. When he invited me up the weather was beautiful and in the 70`s. By the time I made it to Bozeman it was very, very cold. Spent about a week at his ranch near a little community believe it is called Hot Springs. Coldest I have been in a long, long time.


Gosh I really LOVE Montana, in fact tried to move there but the seller of the place could not meet us in price and that idea went out the window. What a beautiful place, even with the harsh winters.

Klondike also wrote
Ms. Corbin`s book both conceals and reveals. A dance of what is and what is not. The question is why. Even deception can tell you a great deal if you are open to its truth. Perhaps deception is used to hide great truths if so no harm no foul. We always have the responsibility to separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps there is a picture in Ms. Corbin`s book of the drift mine that is known as the ldm, if so then obviously it is the most important book written on the subject. Is there such a picture. Yes there is.


Well that is interesting, I would ask what leads you to conclude the photo is definitely of the LDM and not any other possibility, if you can share that publicly?

Klondike also wrote

In terms of the wreckage of the ancient ship in the Salt River, another group is working that as I write this. In 60 days that will be worked out and stored in the same place the contents of Spirit Mountain are interned.


That is a dang shame; now no one will likely ever know anything about it. Too bad, a wrecked ancient Old world ship found in AZ, far from the sea, would settle that argument over Isolation vs Diffusion theories of history in an absolute way. You would not believe some of the counter-arguments I have received, like the finding of ancient Punic wrecks off Honduras and Mexico only showed they crossed the water, not that they reached the shore! :roll: Hence if one ship could be shown to have made its way well inland from the sea, it could no longer be argued that the ships sank before ever reaching America.

Klondike also wrote

As far as the Smithsonian goes the files were given a while back along with a number of other things for safe keeping. The name it is gifted under is really quite humorous. Don`t expect anyone will figure it out. It is too simple,

Perhaps it will one day be given to someone as a gift. Perhaps it already has. Stamped and ready to go.

Merry christmas and may the stars keep you safe.


Klondike


Merry Christmas to you too, hope it is your best one ever, and that goes to Joe and anyone else reading our little discussion here.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:04 pm

I keep forgetting to add this:

[/quote]
WHAT MAKES A GOLD-TELLURIDE DEPOSIT?

COOK, Nigel John, Natural History Museum, University of Oslo, Boks 1172 Blindern, Oslo, NO-0318, Norway, nigelc@nhm.uio.no, CIOBANU, Cristiana Liana, South Australian Museum and School of Earth and Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide, North Terrace, Adelaide, S.A, 5000, Australia, and SPRY, Paul G., Geological and Atmospheric Sciences, Iowa State University, 253 Science I, Ames, IA 50011
Gold-telluride deposits are currently considered to result from low-temperature (<300�C) hydrothermal processes, with the telluride-bearing parageneses recognized as a specific depositional event. The tellurides can be precipitated either at the same place or separately from native gold ore, depending upon precipitation mechanisms, local setting, etc. Contemporary viewpoints for telluride formation include a Te-rich source, generally magmatically-derived, transport of Te as aqueous/vapor species within hydrothermal fluid, and precipitation of ore minerals due to mechanisms such as boiling, mixing, temperature decrease, fluid-rock interaction etc. This model fits well with a shallow epithermal environment (<5 km). Indeed, most Au-telluride deposits are of such type, even though good examples of deposits formed in deeper (>5 km) settings, e.g., orogenic and intrusion-related types, are known.

In contrast, telluride-enriched deposits include a wider range of deposit types, e.g., Au-rich VMS deposits, porphyry Au(Cu) and Au skarns. In these, some proportion of the gold may occur as Au-(Ag)-tellurides, or as native gold/Au-minerals paragenetically tied with tellurides of other elements, notably bismuth. Bi-tellurides and altaite can also be considered as precious metal carriers given LA-ICPMS analyses on these minerals from various deposit types that show Au values of tens to hundreds of ppm.

The fact that Au(Ag)-tellurides are stable with native Te at oxidizing conditions (Py, Hem stability) implies that deposits formed under reducing conditions (reduced Au skarns, orogenic Au, intrusion-related) are excluded from the category of Au-telluride deposits. This is despite their enrichment in Bi-telluride species stable with native Bi (Po, Mt stability). An improved definition of the term �gold-telluride deposits' is thus necessary, encompassing the genetic connotation given by the presence of tellurides other than those of Au-Ag. Emphasizing this idea further, the role that melts from the Au-Bi-Te or Au-Pb-Te systems may play in scavenging Au from hydrothermal fluids, or concentrating Au during metamorphism, provides for new ways of considering Au-telluride deposits. Their formation may be dependant upon specific mechanisms of telluride enrichment rather than imposed by a Te-rich source. [/quote]

Abstract from:
https://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2007AM/finalprogram/abstract_131060.htm

This explains (far better than I could) one of the big reasons why any gold tellurides showing up in any gold ore specimen, SUPPOSED to originate in the Superstition mountains of AZ, raises a red flag for me. Gold tellurides do exist in AZ, the closest area that I am aware of to the Superstitions being in the Mule mountains of Cochise county (where we used to live) and the tellurides are not abundant in any district in AZ that I am aware of. Hence if some ore specimen turns up WITH tellurides, and the USGS studies done on the Superstitions did not find ANY evidence of any Tellurium being present anywhere in or in adjacent areas they examined, it raises issues that the specimen MAY have come from a very different location and this raises the possibility of a fraud being perpetrated. There should be Tellurium present, if not abundant then in measurable quantities, if it is to be found in any gold ore from a region - not be completely absent!

Too much fraud, fiction and plain vanilla erroneous information have gotten mixed in to the LDM legend over the years. We should be trying to get it sorted out, to remove the tons of chaff from the flyspecks of genuine information so that one day perhaps someone will truly find the lost Dutchman gold mine. I look forward to that day, of course it would be sweet if it were ME that found it, but as I no longer hunt the lost Dutchman mine - at least not THIS lost Dutchman mine of Jacob Waltz (have recently spent some time hunting the lost Dutchman of the Vultures however, will not rule out another run at it nor at the 3rd Dutchman mine, Youngman's in the Bradshaws) that is very long odds indeed.

Nothing to be ashamed of in having been fooled by some of the phony and erroneous information that has been in circulation, some has been broadcast by experts at deception, subverting true history (including their own personal histories) and requires research to expose it. Hopefully we are getting better at catching these deceptions. Anyway thought I would explain why the supposed tellurides present in a gold ore specimen raised suspicions for me, as likely also for others.

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas, and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy A. Decker ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:06 pm

OOps made an error there, can't correct it however. The quoted extract begins at WHAT MAKES... and ends at ..imposed by TE rich source. Hopefully that is apparent to anyone reading it, apologies for not catching it before hitting "submit".

Merry Christmas to you all.
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:24 pm

Hello Roy,

Montana is beautiful, but the winters, well a bit rough.

As far as the LDM goes, let`s just consider my comments an introduction. The ldm that relates to the ore that was tested at UNR came from a played out drift mine in PIstol Canyon that pinched out at depth. Having said that a cross-cut was made and the vein was intersected at a lower depth. Ore taken from the lower depth matches up closely. The composition of the ore is fairly uniform and I suspect will not vary. Epithermal in nature with Tellurium and other minerals one would expect to find. The vein branches out and can be found in several locations near by. I would reference you to a comment that was made in Robert Sikorsky`s work, "Ouest for the Dutchman`s Gold", page 142:

"He told me many things about the Superstitions that actually flabbergasted my wildest expectations about his people. Since he was a relative of the medicine man, at a certain young age he was told where eight Spanish mines were covered up near their sacred burial grounds and that one of them, I assumed, was the Dutchman."

One of those 8 mines was the mine in Pistol Canyon. It will be discovered again in the first quarter of 2016.

I don`t expect the wooden frame to be removed. What those folks are after is the ships treasure. Taking the ship out would be far too public. And not sure I would call it a Roman ship it was constructed in what is now Arizona by the settlers of Calalus. Actually not that far from Horse Mesa.

You folks take care. A lot of packing to do so perhaps talk to you next year.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Fri Dec 11, 2015 2:36 pm

Hello Roy,

One final thought. I have wondered if those 8 mines could be the genisis of the hide map. I have become to believe that the stone maps and the hide maps perhaps cross each other in several areas of the range thus reflecting their common point of origin. The creators of the Stone Maps were interested in one thing, the hide map another. Each represents very real locations in the range but from different perspectives. Next we have the Spanish and then the locals involved in the same general area creating and destroying things for their own specific reasons.

Glad my only interest in the range is a group of roses and a few other things in the Roger`s Canyon area. :lol:

Really all I have the energy for anymore. Too many miles on the engine.

May the stars keep you safe.


klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Fri Dec 11, 2015 6:22 pm

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

Montana is beautiful, but the winters, well a bit rough.

As far as the LDM goes, let`s just consider my comments an introduction. The ldm that relates to the ore that was tested at UNR came from a played out drift mine in PIstol Canyon that pinched out at depth. Having said that a cross-cut was made and the vein was intersected at a lower depth. Ore taken from the lower depth matches up closely. The composition of the ore is fairly uniform and I suspect will not vary. Epithermal in nature with Tellurium and other minerals one would expect to find. The vein branches out and can be found in several locations near by. I would reference you to a comment that was made in Robert Sikorsky`s work, "Ouest for the Dutchman`s Gold", page 142:

"He told me many things about the Superstitions that actually flabbergasted my wildest expectations about his people. Since he was a relative of the medicine man, at a certain young age he was told where eight Spanish mines were covered up near their sacred burial grounds and that one of them, I assumed, was the Dutchman."

One of those 8 mines was the mine in Pistol Canyon. It will be discovered again in the first quarter of 2016.


Thank you for explaining. I presume you are predicting that Mr Roberts will "discover" that mine, as he just mentioned that he is spending time this winter and early 2016 looking for it? Won't that kind of "steal his thunder" that you already had found it and know where it is? :lol:

Klondike also wrote


I don`t expect the wooden frame to be removed. What those folks are after is the ships treasure. Taking the ship out would be far too public. And not sure I would call it a Roman ship it was constructed in what is now Arizona by the settlers of Calalus. Actually not that far from Horse Mesa.

You folks take care. A lot of packing to do so perhaps talk to you next year.

Klondike

"


Last bit first, hope your move is an easy one, and your new home will be just what you are looking for. Moving is never fun, heck our last move ended up taking the better part of a month to get all our things in one place. Don't ask! :mrgreen: :roll: I can't imagine trying to move in the holiday season.

I would think that the people of Calalus, if they originated from the Byzantine empire, very likely would have considered themselves Romans, just as the Rumanians of today feel they are direct descendants, and as the Byzantines themselves called themselves "Romans" even though Rome had become a pagan/barbarian stronghold centuries earlier. The key point would be the building methods used - if they are Old World methods and tools, it points to Old World people, if they are New World methods and tools, then even if the builders were basically Mediterranean by blood, the ship or boat would be considered a New World one by our experts and thus built by Amerindians not Europeans.

Klondike also wrote
One final thought. I have wondered if those 8 mines could be the genisis of the hide map. I have become to believe that the stone maps and the hide maps perhaps cross each other in several areas of the range thus reflecting their common point of origin. The creators of the Stone Maps were interested in one thing, the hide map another. Each represents very real locations in the range but from different perspectives. Next we have the Spanish and then the locals involved in the same general area creating and destroying things for their own specific reasons.


Hard to say from this point in time. :?:

Klondike also wrote

Glad my only interest in the range is a group of roses and a few other things in the Roger`s Canyon area. :lol:

Really all I have the energy for anymore. Too many miles on the engine


I hear you - and can empathize! Those hills and canyons have definitely gotten steeper and longer over the years, and that brush and cactus has grown thicker and thicker. I am sure of it, I don't care what the map makers say! :mrgreen:

Wishing you and yours (and anyone reading this) a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, hope your move is pleasant or at least is done fairly easily for you. NO hurry on a reply, certainly not on my account!
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:14 pm

Good luck Mr. Roberts and god speed.

Roy,

The Superstitions are a place of destiny and a monument to history. The past, future, and present collide in one small area to create legends. A number of them touch each other in the most surprising ways. A journey to the ldm leads you to the past and its trail weaves to the present and the future.

A number of years ago a small article was written in the Los Angeles Times. The article appeared in the August 1,1965 edition. It is just a brief piece and tells us a bit about Amos Hawkins, who at the time was the head of the Pinal County Search and Rescue Unit. In it Mr. Hawkins tells us :

"Hawkins has been searching for victims for some 35 years. If anyone were skeptical--and many are--about the mine, it should be Hawkins. Yet, he declares his belief in the mine`s existence, but tempers it by adding that he`s never had time to look for the lode since his job is to locate people who've become lost trying to find it."

I mention this because a searcher for the mine must have carried the article with him into the range. It was found in a most remarkable place. Perhaps the ldm, the thunder gods and a lot more legends lead back to this place.

So what does this all suggest. Perhaps trying to understand the ldm in and of itself is well a fairy tale. The ldm has been found just about everywhere in the range. From east to west just drop a pick and who knows. See the following from page 112," Esperanza ", Don Shade:

"Jake told Vernona that he had been prospecting in Sonora and that he had met one of the Peraltas, who told him about the mine near Iron Mountain on Pinto Creek. Verona told me there was no secret among Jake`s German friends as to the location of the mine, they all knew it was on Pinto Creek."

You see the gold from the played out drift mine in Pistol Canyon that was tested at UNR is one of the eight mines that was mentioned in Sikorsky`s book and Jake was on to it. But Jake was on to a lot of things. One mine? A gatekeeper would say as much. I would think about a place in the range that none of the history speaks to. One that leads to a place of destiny. :D

Some call this place Oz. Others memorialize it as OL, and even others as simply O.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year.

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:37 pm

Ben,

"You see the gold from the played out drift mine in Pistol Canyon that was tested at UNR is one of the eight mines that was mentioned in Sikorsky`s book and Jake was on to it. But Jake was on to a lot of things. One mine? A gatekeeper would say as much. I would think about a place in the range that none of the history speaks to. One that leads to a place of destiny."

Are you still claiming that Jacob Waltz was a "Gatekeeper"?

Merry Christmas!

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby oldpueblo70 » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:51 pm

Klondike,

Glad to see that you're still posting. It is unfortunate that group is the one involved in removing the contents of the ship. I would imagine that the
Smithsonian, and the powers that be have many interesting items that will never see the light of day. I don't think they want to challenge mainstream ideology, religious or academic, that will upset the masses.

Regarding the Smithsonian, I have a couple of ideas as to the name the items are gifted under. Something I'll look into when I have some time.
Is the object you referred to circling the planet more commonly called the Black Knight satellite? Can you elaborate any on Oz being a place of destiny?
I find this subject matter extremely fascinating. I am simply trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. Perhaps someone simply needs to dig a bit deeper to reveal the truth.

This year has come and gone, and the new one is upon us. Still so many unanswered questions, I hope that the new year is better than the last.

To all who read this, wishing you all a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Oldpueblo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:51 pm

Gentlemen:

Hello Mr. Ribaudo

Was Jacob a gatekeeper? Yes he was. Perhaps the truth of this statement is closer than you think. Do you remember in the Bent/McGee correspondence the reference to a canyon and the carvings that were difficult to fathom. That canyon is high up on malaipis, very very windy if I remember. In this particular canyon is a covered mine. Quite easy to find I might add. Inside the mine is proof of Jacob`s background and his efforts. I have wondered why you folks have never revealed the particulars of that correspondence. If you can`t decipher the documents perhaps someone else can.

Hello oldpueblo

Well I am posting a bit but like yesterdays news it is time to move on. More important things in my life now. Have a museum that needs attention. The group that is involved in the Salt River project is well funded. Same folks that Jim Hyatt identified a few years ago as active on Horse Mesa. Really quite nasty. Guess you could say we all contribute to their efforts. A bit of irony there. :lol:

Actually the name is quite simple and it seems to me the right guess on line will open up Pandora`s box. Would be quite the hoot.

Not quite sure what the Black Knight Satellite is. Whatever it is it has nothing to do with us. If it is particularly ominous perhaps the folks with the black helicopters are involved.

When I reference Oz as the destiny of the range what I mean is that Oz was both the beginning and the end point for so much of what has happened in the range. Within its walls the destruction and glory of the ancients was chronicled. Also the destruction of a much less important people who have cared for the library for a long, long time.

Now that library is home with those people yet its ghost still permeates so much of what has gone on there and what will go on.

On another subject it will be fascinating to see the discovery of one of jake`s mines. Hopefully that will lead to the opening up of 7 more mines. I also hope the mine on Malapais and the deeply religious history of that area will be left alone.

Feel free to pm me here.


Happy Holidays,

Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:47 pm

Ben,

The folks with the "black" helicopters are the Government. They admitted the unmarked helicopters were ours, but they were not black......they were dark, dark green. They have flown over Lake Havasu many times, and once landed at our airport north of town. Parked right out in the open, visible from the highway.

Merry Christmas,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:02 pm

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Ben,

The folks with the "black" helicopters are the Government. They admitted the unmarked helicopters were ours, but they were not black......they were dark, dark green. They have flown over Lake Havasu many times, and once landed at our airport north of town. Parked right out in the open, visible from the highway.

Merry Christmas,

Joe Ribaudo


Correct buddy - I got a couple of photos of the 'black helicopters' when a formation of six or seven went over our place years ago. They were being bought and formed into a sort of secret, private air force by the BATF. Sort of the way the SS formed a separate military in Germany not so long ago. Congress put a stop to it, but not before they had got a bunch of attack helicopters and even some of our top fighter jets, all in the name of enforcing our alcohol, tobacco and firearms regulations.

Have to admit here that I was making fun of people who claimed they saw them, until I saw them with my own eyes too. If needed, and allowing me time to hunt them up, I still have the photos here somewhere. Can almost pin the date as we had just finished the shell of our first house, so I know it was summer of 1989.

Merry Christmas to you and everyone reading this,
Roy ~ Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:11 pm

Klondike, while I realize you are probably busy as heck (so there is NO rush to answer this on my account) but I would like to ask why you believe there were eight mines, associated with Waltz? Even though the argument could be made that he had TWO, one being lode and one placer, that is still short of eight. Thanks in advance.

Wishing you all a very Merry Christmas, had intended to post this in the previous one but can not edit the post so had to do two.
Roy
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:44 am

Gentlemen,

Believe the folks on Horse Mesa were carrying automatic weapons and keeping close eye on anyone in that area. Guess Horse Mesa is interesting. The views have always been superb and the history is phenomenal. Imagine protecting it is important in many different ways.

Roy,

As we can all attest there are many myths surrounding Jacob, none more pervasive than the legend of one mine. Is it reasonable to believe that Jacob was into the range all those years, with the amount of mining activity going on, and he would only be on to one mine? The position to me seems a bit untenable. Is the ldm the mine in Roger`s Canyon that the locals excavated a few years back? It does fit a number of clues yet given the lack of verifiable information concerning the dig who knows. If it is the ldm Jacob was well playing games with the clues. Good man.

Is the ldm the drift mine in pistol canyon? The testing at UNR would suggest it is. But then what about the mines mentioned in the Sikorsky work? If this cluster of mines is relatively close together and from the same geological event how is it possible Jacob missed them?

Let`s now turn our attention to other evidence. In Don Shade`s work, Esperanza, Mr. Shade shares with us on page 134 that:

"Herman stated that Rhiney dug up an iron pot at Jake`s old house that was very heavy and laden with gold. Some of the gold was in the form of nuggets and some of it was in white quartz, which had tiny nuggets imbedded in it. Among the specimens were six pieces of very rich gold ore, none of which looked alike. An assay of these specimens showed one hundred ten thousand dollars to the ton. Of course Rhiney lost them" :lol:

"Bob Garman indicated that at a later time he had seen one of the six specimens which was heavily laden with Gold in translucent chalcedony quartz with traces of pink and gold coloring. It would seem to me that if there were six very rich specimens and all of them were different, they each would have come from a different mine and would have been hand picked for richness. If this hypothesis were true, you might have six clues to six different mines. I firmly believe that Bob was correct in indicting that the matrix was translucent chacedony quartz in that he assumed to be Dutchman Ore."

I believe it is better to think in terms of mines instead of one mine. Having said that there is one mine that we have referred to as ldm1. This mine is well hidden and exists on the contact point between two calderas. One that is known, one that is not. This is a rich mine(epithermal) and Jacob did have gold from this mine. Some of this ore found its way north to Nevada and was processed at Virginia City Nevada in the Mexican Mine. The Mexican Mine becomes important because of its relationship to those that were involved in Roger`s Canyon.

So perhaps it is all a matter of taste. Some believe in one mine and that is ok. Some believe Jacob`s last name is Waltz and that is ok, others like mesothermal quartz and believe they know where Jacob came from. All of it is ok. Christmas is upon us so everyone should believe what they wish. After all the more illusions there are the safer Oz is. Jacob understood this. :D

And just think of all the folks making money off of the illusions. Books, TV it is a virtual Disneyland with everyone getting their own ride.

The truth well that is a whole different matter.

May the stars keep us all safe

Klondike








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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Thu Dec 24, 2015 5:58 pm

Thank you Klondike for taking the time to explain. I respectfully disagree in part, but do agree that a great deal of confusion has been going on in the LDM legend, and continues to go on. Also agree that the truth is quite a different case from what nearly everyone has been believing.

I would like to ask one more question on this topic, that is if you can name all eight mines? Thank you in advance, and if you would rather not or can not name them I will understand and not pester you for it.

Wishing everyone a very Merry Christmas, hope it is a great one for you! Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. :mrgreen:
Oroblanco ~ Roy A. Decker
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:53 pm

Hello Everyone,

For your reading enjoyment.

klondike




http://www.sott.net/article/308709-Swor ... e-Columbus

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby oldpueblo70 » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:45 pm

Very interesting.

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Sat Dec 26, 2015 8:54 pm

Thanks for the link Klondike, interesting article.

The down side is that the "Roman" sword is apparently a modern fake. I won't suggest which articles online to read, but just do a search and you will see.

This raises huge credibility issues for the person who claimed to have found the "Roman" wreck. Did he find a real wreck, and add that modern fake (and clearly Bronze Age, NON-Roman dagger) to add excitement to his discovery?

Worse, there is already MIS-interpretation going on. As with the statement about "Roman Carthage gold coins found" well firstly, they were bronze coins not gold as far as i am aware, and were absolutely NOT Roman in any way. Oh you could say Roman time period I suppose. You could as easily say Greek time period and be as accurate, for the coins are Punic, from the Carthaginian empire, which was very much a seafaring power, the best in the world in their time with a huge military and commercial trading fleet. Carthage also sent out a number of exploring expeditions, not very different from what the Spanish, Portuguese, English, Dutch and others did in the so-called 'Age of Discovery' centuries later. The finding of (Berberis Vulgaris) on Oak Island would certainly show me a link to North Africa and the Punic empire as well, and not the Romans.

Not to say that the Romans did not attempt to cross the Atlantic, at least two such attempts were made but one (described by Strabo) turned back without ever finding any land, and the other apparently only reached the Caribbean islands, which they called the Hesperides, as they were not aware of any continent in the west. Josephus also mentions the attempt to find the continent that the Romans had heard about from their enemies (Carthage) and hinting that this search was unsuccessful, although his statements are rather vague on that point. Anyway it is pretty much a certainty that one or more Roman ships did cross the Atlantic successfully, although based on what evidence we have, it looks like they were not able to return, as with the shipwreck off Beverly Mass.

But people are far more familiar with Romans and ancient Egypt so when something that is clearly Old World is found in the New, they automatically make the leap that it has to be Romans or Egyptians, ignoring the greatest seafarers and explorers of the ancient world entirely. Partly understandable, as the libraries of Carthage were burned and given away to Numidian princes so we do not have their records, and the Phoenicians were rather secretive about the navigations and discoveries they made, on the very reasonable grounds of these secrets had commercial value to them. If they could control the sources for tin (vital for bronze production) spices (being shipped all the way from SE Asia) ivory, ebony, salt, hemp, they could make the greatest profits, and Carthage was all about profits.

Anyway thanks for sharing that, some interesting things being found in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (naturally now that I live too far away to go have a look for myself! Drat it all anyway!) too bad they had to stoop to using fake "finds" though. I really do not know why people will do that, it does them no good and only hurts any real finds by raising doubts in the public.

Wishing everyone happy holidays, especially a very Happy New Year too,
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:09 pm

Oroblanco wrote:Thanks for the link Klondike, interesting article.

The down side is that the "Roman" sword is apparently a modern fake. I won't suggest which articles online to read, but just do a search and you will see.

This raises huge credibility issues for the person who claimed to have found the "Roman" wreck. Did he find a real wreck, and add that modern fake (and clearly Bronze Age, NON-Roman dagger) to add excitement to his discovery?

Worse, there is already MIS-interpretation going on. As with the statement about "Roman Carthage gold coins found" well firstly, they were bronze coins not gold as far as i am aware, and were absolutely NOT Roman in any way. Oh you could say Roman time period I suppose. You could as easily say Greek time period and be as accurate, for the coins are Punic, from the Carthaginian empire, which was very much a seafaring power, the best in the world in their time with a huge military and commercial trading fleet. Carthage also sent out a number of exploring expeditions, not very different from what the Spanish, Portuguese, English, Dutch and others did in the so-called 'Age of Discovery' centuries later. The finding of (Berberis Vulgaris) on Oak Island would certainly show me a link to North Africa and the Punic empire as well, and not the Romans.

Not to say that the Romans did not attempt to cross the Atlantic, at least two such attempts were made but one (described by Strabo) turned back without ever finding any land, and the other apparently only reached the Caribbean islands, which they called the Hesperides, as they were not aware of any continent in the west. Josephus also mentions the attempt to find the continent that the Romans had heard about from their enemies (Carthage) and hinting that this search was unsuccessful, although his statements are rather vague on that point. Anyway it is pretty much a certainty that one or more Roman ships did cross the Atlantic successfully, although based on what evidence we have, it looks like they were not able to return, as with the shipwreck off Beverly Mass.

But people are far more familiar with Romans and ancient Egypt so when something that is clearly Old World is found in the New, they automatically make the leap that it has to be Romans or Egyptians, ignoring the greatest seafarers and explorers of the ancient world entirely. Partly understandable, as the libraries of Carthage were burned and given away to Numidian princes so we do not have their records, and the Phoenicians were rather secretive about the navigations and discoveries they made, on the very reasonable grounds of these secrets had commercial value to them. If they could control the sources for tin (vital for bronze production) spices (being shipped all the way from SE Asia) ivory, ebony, salt, hemp, they could make the greatest profits, and Carthage was all about profits.

Anyway thanks for sharing that, some interesting things being found in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick (naturally now that I live too far away to go have a look for myself! Drat it all anyway!) too bad they had to stoop to using fake "finds" though. I really do not know why people will do that, it does them no good and only hurts any real finds by raising doubts in the public.

Wishing everyone happy holidays, especially a very Happy New Year too,
Oroblanco


Roy,

That's what happens when you put off making a reply. Someone like you jumps in and removes all wind from my sails, so to speak.

Actually, I was going to say......I believe I will wait to see if that "ship" floats long enough to reach the mainland before stepping aboard. Oak Island, the production, has always had credibility issues as far as I was concerned. Stopped watching it a long time ago.

What the show really needed, was for someone to throw them a life preserver. 8O And so one was conjured up. Believe that story is going to sink like a ........lead sword. :lol: Could it be that it will turn out to be identical in makeup, to the Tucson artifacts?

Have a great New Year!

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:17 pm


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Sat Dec 26, 2015 10:55 pm

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Hmmmmm?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PARTICOLARE-SCU ... rmvSB=true

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo



Holy cow Joe that was fast - you must have seen the relicas before, to know where to look for them, perhaps? I think they are modeled after a Celtic burial dagger found in England (if memory serves, which could be wrong) that dated to before the time of the Romans. It certainly looks Bronze Age and not the Roman empire period to me, plus a bronze weapon would be very out of date (obsolete) by Roman days. Iron was no longer rare and expensive by the time of Alexander (well before classical Roman empire) so bronze weapons went out of use. That looks like an EXACT match to me which fairly settles the story as FAKE.

Amen on the Oak Island deal. I do admit to watching it occasionally, getting sucked in by ads that seem to indicate that they are FINALLY going to actually DIG where they have hit something down there (wood and some type of concrete) which is the only sensible thing to do, but they keep going off on tangents, some getting pretty ridiculous like the Aztec-Montezuma theory. I get the impression they are milking it for as long as possible, as if they already know what is in the actual 'money pit' itself.

I hope all is well with you and Carolyn, and that you are feeling better every day. Nothing like feeling like crap during the holidays to sap any interest in it. Sorry did not mean to take the wind out of your sails, sometimes we do think alike despite our differences! (ha ha)
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sun Dec 27, 2015 2:01 am

Roy,

A simple search for "Roman period short sword" will show you all you need to see to expose this somewhat obvious hoax.

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=r ... mp=yhs-002

Makes you wonder who is doing the research on this stuff. While it seems obvious to me, I'm a complete amateur. You don't think Ben Davis might have been the "finder", do you? 8O :lol:

Take care,

Joe

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby klondike » Sun Dec 27, 2015 8:34 am

Gentlemen:

It might be a good thing to let this play out. Oak Island does seem to be an interesting place. If the ship is there it can be excavated

If Romans were in the area why? One would imagine they had specific information to bring them there. After all Calalus was the name given by the ancients to the entire continent. Their knowledge of the continent was extensive.

Pulitzer carried out tests on the sword, using an XRF analyser, which revealed that the sword contained the same metallic properties, with traces of arsenic and lead, that match other Roman artifacts. :D

"The shipwreck is still there and has not been worked," said Pulitzer [via The Boston Standard]. "We have scanned it, we know exactly where it lays, but it will be a touchy thing for the Nova Scotia government to allow an archaeological team to survey it. We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is Roman."


Evidence to Support Roman Presence

In an attempt to dismiss skeptics, who may suggest the artifact had simply fallen off the side of a boat in more recent times, Pultizer and his team have dug up numerous other pieces of evidence to support the theory that the Romans made it to the New World more than 1,000 years before Christopher Columbus. These include:
Petroglyphs carved on cave walls and boulders in Nova Scotia by the indigenous Mi'kmaq people, which depict what Pulitzer's team believe to be Roman soldiers marching with their swords, and Roman ships.
Fifty words in the Mi'kmaq language that are nautical terms used by mariners from Roman times.
An invasive species of plant (Berberis Vulgaris) growing on Oak Island and in Halifax, which was once used by Romans to season their food and prevent scurvy on their voyages.
A Roman legionnaire's whistle found on Oak Island in 1901
A metal 'boss' from the center of a Roman shield found in Nova Scotia in the mid-1800s
Gold Roman Carthage coins found on the mainland near Oak Island
Two carved stones on Oak Island that Pulitzer says displays a language from the ancient Levant.

On another point, any chance of the Bent/Mcgee correspondence being made public in 2016. I can understand why you would want it to remain hidden. :D


Klondike

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:47 am

Hi Joe;
Thanks but I doubt your statement about “complete amateur”. I can claim that title however, and have a small collection of Roman and Greek weapons, mainly arrowheads but a few spear points and even a couple Punic. There are not many differences in those types but in swords the styles and lengths etc change drastically between cultures and time periods as you know.

Here is an example of a Celtic bronze age (~700 BC to 200 BC, pre-Roman contact) dagger or sword with an “anthropomorphic” handle, not exactly like the replica being presented in that article but to point out that this style really more closely matches Celtic designs than anything Roman. The length is not a big issue, people find the term “sword” more appealing when really that would have been a dagger, not the first weapon of choice for combat but rather a last ditch thing kept in the belt until and unless the spear and or sword or axe (main weapon) were lost.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/mharrsch/1294135425

photos of others
https://balkancelts.wordpress.com/2014/04/04/celtic-anthropomorphic-swords/

Klondike, from your post I am getting the impression you are accepting this Oak Island “discovery” as genuine? May I ask why, when clearly it not only has signs of being a fraud, but even if genuine are probably quite mistaken in the source culture identification?

I would also respectfully disagree with your statement that Calalus was the ancients name for America. The only reference to that name I could find occurred in Spain, as the site of a battle, and on the Iberian peninsula. Conversely, we do have fairly good evidence that the Greek name for America was Ogygia, not Calalus. The Romans were of the opinion that there was NO American continent, read Strabo’s account of the attempt to circumnavigate the world in his time (first century) that found no continent, even though the two ships sent out (one easterly, one westerly) both turned back after sailing many days at sea without encountering any land blocking their path. One can surmise that they (Romans) had heard of the Americas existence, from both Punic and Greek sources, as we can find mentioned in Plato, which led them to attempt the experiment that (for them) proved the stories false, there was no continent blocking the way across the ocean. This may have even been used by Columbus to bolster his theory of being able to sail west from Europe direct to India or Cipan-gu <Japan>. Hence there is good reason why the Romans had no name for America, since they were convinced (by experiment) that there was no continent in the western Atlantic. There is reason to believe the Romans had found and visited Iceland, which they used the Greek name Thule, or "Ultima Thule" as the most extremely western parcel of land from their point of view.

Of course if you know of some Old World source that refers to America as Calalus, other than the doubtful Tucson relics, I would welcome the chance to read it. We do know that some of the Old World cultures were aware of the Americas and had names for some places, like Alaska, <"the great land" in Punic> and Bar-zil (Brazil, "land of iron" in Punic) for the South American continent, <both Phoenician or Punic names for these places, not Roman at all> or Ogygia to the Greeks, but no Old World source that I am aware of ever refers to it as Calalus. Thank you in advance, hope you can prove me wrong on this point.

Wishing you all a very Happy and prosperous New Year,
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Postby Oroblanco » Sun Dec 27, 2015 11:50 am

PS can't edit that but made an error there, where it says "..that found no continent,..." was supposed to have "...barred their path across the seas." at the end of the sentence. Sorry about that, need more coffee!
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca