Yellow Jackets

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klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

We answer what we can without endangering what it is we protect. Whether or not that meets your standard of proof is your issue not ours.

You indicate you are seeking answers but you statements show you are really looking for nothing. Nothing other than idle chatter. A chatter that you find comfortable because it reassures you that your little island of knowledge is all there is in the sea. Basically you talk to yourself.

You see Roy idle chatter is an activity of nothingness. You indicate:

"I don't believe in the Calalus artifacts much less the Oz story and library, the Star People or stone maps".

If you do not believe in any of this then why bother with it. I suspect you bother with it because at the end you do believe. The contradiction is you are not willing to do the work to understand, you want it given to you but earning it is not in your gene pool.

Earning it means for one thing figuring out the look of the Salt River as it flowed 2000 years ago past Fish Creek Canyon and compare it to the maps. But to do this requires effort. Something you simply cannot do.

Good luck in Roger`s Canyon.

Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

We answer what we can without endangering what it is we protect. Whether or not that meets your standard of proof is your issue not ours.

You indicate you are seeking answers but you statements show you are really looking for nothing. Nothing other than idle chatter. A chatter that you find comfortable because it reassures you that your little island of knowledge is all there is in the sea. Basically you talk to yourself.

You see Roy idle chatter is an activity of nothingness. You indicate:

"I don't believe in the Calalus artifacts much less the Oz story and library, the Star People or stone maps".

If you do not believe in any of this then why bother with it. I suspect you bother with it because at the end you do believe. The contradiction is you are not willing to do the work to understand, you want it given to you but earning it is not in your gene pool.

Earning it means for one thing figuring out the look of the Salt River as it flowed 2000 years ago past Fish Creek Canyon and compare it to the maps. But to do this requires effort. Something you simply cannot do.

Good luck in Roger`s Canyon.

Klondike
Ben,

We carry on this farce for the same reason you do, boredom. It's entertaining.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

We answer what we can without endangering what it is we protect. Whether or not that meets your standard of proof is your issue not ours.
I see - so simply giving out your NAMES, if any, and stating what language and what kind of writing is in that "library" would somehow endanger "it"? In other words, you don't want reality to burst this imaginary world?


Klondike also wrote

You indicate you are seeking answers but you statements show you are really looking for nothing. Nothing other than idle chatter. A chatter that you find comfortable because it reassures you that your little island of knowledge is all there is in the sea. Basically you talk to yourself.
You are projecting again. If you re-read the previous posts, you will find that I was not only responding to your statements, but asking questions in return. Fantasy worlds are indeed idle chatter, seeking the truth is hardly such a waste of time.

Klondike also wrote

You see Roy idle chatter is an activity of nothingness. You indicate:

"I don't believe in the Calalus artifacts much less the Oz story and library, the Star People or stone maps".

If you do not believe in any of this then why bother with it. I suspect you bother with it because at the end you do believe. The contradiction is you are not willing to do the work to understand, you want it given to you but earning it is not in your gene pool.
As usual, you resort to insult. I suppose you will soon be complaining about the lack of respect and courtesy again, when you have been flinging insults almost from the start. You do not know me, clearly.

Klondike also wrote
Earning it means for one thing figuring out the look of the Salt River as it flowed 2000 years ago past Fish Creek Canyon and compare it to the maps. But to do this requires effort. Something you simply cannot do.
If there were some reason to look at the flow of the Salt river 2000 years ago, I would have already been doing just that. So far, you have presented nothing to amount to such reason. And again, more insult, and proof that you do not know me at all.

Klondike also wrote


Good luck in Roger`s Canyon.
What on Earth would I be doing in Rogers canyon? Where did I ever say that I had any intention of going there? Oh I am planning to be in Arizona later this year, but it won't be in Rogers canyon, nor Fish creek canyon, nor Horse mesa, nor Blacktop or Miners Needle. I won't even be in the Superstitions. For you see, I have other things I do, including searching for lost treasure, which is not and never was located in the Superstitions. I had a lot of fun searching in the Superstitions for a number of years, but never saw enough gold or silver to make it exciting to me. Rogers canyon has a number of old silver mines, and supposedly some gold was mined out of one of the mines there a few years back. I doubt very much that those fellows who mined out that gold, left behind lots more for someone else to find. Hence my lack of interest in hiking there. On the other hand, if you consider the Dons camp to be "in" the Superstitions, then I must correct that statement to say that I will be there, if possible, for a day or two, for the big reason of seeing my friends and meeting some online friends that I had never met in person before. You were invited there as well, and I would happily shake your hand there if you should. I am 100% certain that Joe would shake your hand as well. Even if we were enemies however, the standing rule at these rendezvous is that the hatchets are left outside the camp gates. Somehow I doubt you would join us there however.

Joe has exhibited the patience of Job with you, and I have tried to give you as much leeway as possible to present your case. You keep wanting others to do that job for you, to sort of convince themselves. Perhaps you are unaware but it is common practice that when someone makes an extraordinary claim, which demands extraordinary proof - that proof has to be presented by the person(s) making the claim. You are the ONLY person that has told this story of Oz, the library et al. Yet you can not even say what kind of writing is in those tablets or books, nor what language. Can you back off from a statement you made, when you can not prove it? Not so far as I can see.


In a way you are right however, when you say that I am "talking to myself" - for it has become abundantly clear that YOU are ignoring a great deal of what is written to you.

Last chance Klondike - here are those pesky questions again:

What are the real names of the members of your group?

What language are those books in the library of Oz written in?

What kind of writing system are they composed of?

I can wait a short while for the answers, but not too long. I do have other irons in the fire, and research work of my own waiting for my attention. One other thing but if tossing insults is the way you wish to proceed, there is an old saying about beware what you wish for.
don-t be an a-hole 2 me.jpg
don-t be an a-hole 2 me.jpg (43.27 KiB) Viewed 62999 times
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

PS to Klondike - regardless of whether you will or will not answer those simple questions, don't forget to let me know when those books from the library of Oz are available for purchase, and especially that extended version of Critias.
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

Its not there are no answers to your questions, its just well you approach is how do you say this just boring. You repeat, repeat, repeat the sameness that you seem to be comfortable with. When an attempt is made to point you along the way you simply reject it and return to what is comfortable and makes you secure.

Perhaps I was wrong this is not completely about quitting and blaming others for failure. It is more basic than that it is about well laziness.

Being a student is not such a hard thing. In a way we all are. But choosing the path of ignorance when an opportunity to learn something is well bewildering. Imagine the smallness of such a position in someway is comforting.

Hello Joe,

Read you have a new idea on how the trail maps we created. Good for you. Been a long time.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote

Hello Roy,

Its not there are no answers to your questions, its just well you approach is how do you say this just boring. You repeat, repeat, repeat the sameness that you seem to be comfortable with. When an attempt is made to point you along the way you simply reject it and return to what is comfortable and makes you secure.

Perhaps I was wrong this is not completely about quitting and blaming others for failure. It is more basic than that it is about well laziness.
And the answer is....another insult! 8O :roll:

There is a reason why I keep asking you those questions that you keep evading amigo. See I learned from dealing with professional liars (convicted) for a few years, that one of the main methods used by such persons to avoid answering those "tough" questions is to keep diverting attention or trying to cast blame on the questioner. Do you suppose that it bolsters your case, to keep evading the questions?

This game has been going on since before I even joined this forum, and started out as just an autographed copy of Sims Ely's book and some of his papers, then blossomed into the complex and virtually impossible tale we now see. Do you still have that copy of Ely's book? Joe identified the game very early on, as can be seen in a post from 2006. It is "I have a secret" and we are supposed to play along and run the game board track in a wild goose chase through the Superstition mountains.

If I were to claim that I am not really Roy but am Dr Mortimer Sacshausen and I discovered a cure for all cancers, something so simple and has been there all along, but rather than producing the evidence if you want this cure-all then you must first go to the university of Bern, look for a medical treatise dating to 1589, then you will need to travel to Tula (Mexico) as a vital part of the formula is found on a Mayan stele there but no one has noticed and so forth. Once you have run the course and collected the necessary plants and materials, my group of doctors (whose names we will call X, Y and Z) will then deign to let you know the steps involved. Would you believe that indeed I had found a cure for all cancers, and order airline tickets to Switzerland?

A big difference though is that you rely on the Calalus artifacts, and now also the stone maps, as props for your story. Sorry but I don't believe in them, and I DO leave the door open for any and all, to prove that they are the genuine article. Some have made rather heroic efforts to do just that. That does not mean that I believe these things are real at all, it only means that I am trying to be accomodating for those who do, and who knows perhaps something will turn up tomorrow to prove they are the genuine article after all. I don't see that happening.

There have been a couple of examples where carved stone inscriptions were held to be frauds for decades, and a closer study shows them not to be fraudulent at all, as with the Thoen stone or the Kensington runestone, so it is wise practice to leave the door open for future revelations.

Klondike also wrote
Being a student is not such a hard thing. In a way we all are. But choosing the path of ignorance when an opportunity to learn something is well bewildering. Imagine the smallness of such a position in someway is comforting.
Oh we are choosing a "path of ignorance" and smallness, out of fear of the unknown now. My goodness. Do you suppose that I am fearful of supporting Calalus as real or afraid of taking any controversial position? This is hardly the case. Having known Joe now for roughly ten years, I can safely state that he is likewise fearless of standing his ground and supporting a position regardless of controversy. But he has to be convinced it is the right, and I feel very much the same way. I don't mind arguing something or taking a contrary position for the sake of argument (makes for an interesting discussion at times) but am clear about it when doing so. Another key difference between Joe, me, and your group, is that if we find that we are wrong, we have no problem in admitting it - even changing our minds about something. If I cannot prove something I said, I don't mind admitting that I cannot prove it. I have yet to see any of your group admit to being mistaken, or back off any statement for being unable to prove it.

You already touched on Bigfoot, and I am 99.9% convinced they exist. The dermal ridges in some of the tracks found, are what convinced me. A re-examination of the Patterson/Gimlin footage then followed. I have even had a couple of experiences that may have been Bigfoot over the years, as have several relatives. The "lizard men" you were quick to ridicule, are a core part of the Hopi origin story, and evidences of visitors from other worlds has been found all over the world. Even the top scientists of our time, now state it is an absolute certainty that life exists elsewhere in our galaxy (and universe) and that advanced civilizations must exist, perhaps as many as 10,000 just in our own galaxy. Want to debate the big hairy fellows or alien life? I would be more than happy to oblige. I don't mind if you don't believe, and won't demand that you hike through the Pacific Northwest or sit at Giant Rock watching the night sky for answers.

I think I told you or another member of your group, that I am not just trying to be a hard nose to your story, in fact I am 100% convinced that ancient explorers visited America; some quite by accident, and may not have ever been able to return. Their traces are found dotting the American continents, even far inland - yet the only documented attempt at establishing a colony in the Americas, was by the same sources also ordered to be withdrawn, and punishment of death on any foreigners (to the original discoverers) found to be voyaging there and their ships to be sunk on sight. This particular civilization gained control of the Straits of Gibraltar and tightly controlled any ships passing there for centuries. Only a single Greek expedition managed to pass there in all that time (until the fall of the home country) and his report was so disbelieved on his return to Massalia that he ended life a pauper and in ridicule.

Your scenario of an expedition leaving what would have been the Byzantine empire in circa 775 AD, also flies in the face of other aspects which should present obstacles. St Augustine had proclaimed the world is flat in the fifth century AD, and the art of navigation had actually declined to the point that even crossing the Black Sea or Mediterranean were considered very risky. The Atlantic was the "wine dark sea" filled with horrid monsters and the edge of the world in the eighth century AD. Even if it were possible to cross the Atlantic, it was thought that voyage would require three years, and no continent would bar the path all the way to India. These arguments and others verging on the ridiculous were used against Columbus when he was seeking support for his voyage. How then was this expedition able to get out of the Mediterranean, past the Arabs controlling the straits? Where were they supposed to be traveling to, that storms would carry them across the sea? In the cases of accidental crossings, this most often happened along the Atlantic coast of Africa, where indeed powerful currents and trade winds will carry a ship directly across the ocean, or even a log for that matter. The Calalus relics are silent on this aspect, just as the records of the Byzantines are silent about any such expedition, and as you have been as well.

Yes I have now ventured all over the map, rather than being laser-focused on Fish creek canyon or Horse mesa, but this Calalus story should, MUST address the rest of its tale in its origins, its route of travel, and have left us some evidences of their passing at various places. These aspects you choose to ignore, sort of "choosing a path of ignorance" and by extension laziness, as you have accused me (and Joe) of doing.

As I am still waiting for those revelations to three questions, (going, going,.....) let me ask a less problematic question of you. Since you are convinced the tale is true, what was it that convinced you? Sometimes it is helpful in a dialogue to try to understand the position of your 'opponent' so I would like to know what it was, specifically, that tilted the balance in your mind to the story of Calalus being truth? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

"Each day I grow older, and learn something new." - Solon

PS don't forget to answer those three questions amigo, you may find the whole conversation could change direction entirely when you do. :idea:
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

You see we were born into this history. The students at the museum know more true history of the world by the time they are 19 than well just about anyone. When they look outside and see the cemetery with their ancestors they don`t need any proof.

To outsiders we sometimes provides directions but it is up to them to figure it out. As we have said we will not carry you across the finish line. You have all you need to do the same thing the young lady did. It is just a question of finding the will to do it.

I truly am amazed sometimes how little follow up you folks do regarding the clues we have posted. We have made it clear there have been professional people associated with this project from day one. A little research would have revealed the interconnected parts that point to this very thing. Figure out where one very prominent researcher ended up their career and the pieces start to come together.

You want to keep talking about the world history you know. Why not open up to the history you do not know. When you come to understand that the trail maps take you to Horse Mesa it is easy to stand there and imagine that at one time ships navigated the Salt River from around the world. In fact one sank in the Salt very close to Fish Creek and its remains are still there under a 1000 years of silt. Much the same way the Tucson Artifacts were dumped in a flood plain, which with time would cover them also.

The trail maps. The maps are just a small part of a far bigger picture. The way there is not through the legends of the Superstitions. The way is through the history that is the Superstitions.

I agree with you these discussions become far to heated and there is no reason for that. You need to also accept your responsibility in that situation also. You need to respect we can only answer what we can and if that is a problem simply move on. We have worked with folks who have developed an appreciation of history that has benefited them and us. Several made their way to the museum. In fact recently well it does not matter.

This is your starting point:


1. The photo you posted is of one of the rather famous Tucson Artifacts. Which artifact? I will give you a hint the word begins with L.

2. Below the symbol you will see a temple. What are the three letters that appear below it?

3. On the reverse of this artifact are several symbols that are important in understanding both the Travis book and a physical landmark in Arizona. What are those symbols?

4. Variations of this symbol appear on several of the artifacts. What do those variations suggest?

5. This particular artifact suggests that the Tucson Artifacts were created by multiple parties. Why?

You see Roy if you want to understand the artifacts you will want to understand and answer these questions. If not you are just surfing the internet practicing voodoo history or laying traps.

Answer the questions Roy the duke will be proud of you.

Take it or leave it. And leaving is ok. This is not easy stuff. It never has been. That is not entirely so. It seems for a few it was.

Good luck with whatever path you take.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Still no answers? And speaking of repeating yourself, you have now repeated that same set of questions that was your attempt to dodge those questions for I think the third time now.

You will not "carry me across the finish line"? Do you see this as some kind of race? If you had actually found something, the race is over. Sharing those discoveries with humanity is paramount. Keeping it some kind of proprietary secret as you have, well....not exactly laudable. I fear that you may find historians take a rather dim view of this kind of approach.

Shall we try this one more time?

1: What is the language used in the texts of the library you refer to as "Oz"?

2: What kind of writing is it, alphabetic, cuneiform, hieroglyphs, etc?

3: What are the names of the members of your group?


Very simple questions. Why are these questions so hard for you to answer? Do you have problems with cognitive dysfunction? Are you aware that evasiveness on simple questions, although important ones, is often a sign of a con?

You keep referring to the bread crumb trail of "clues" and hints etc that you have posted, does it exasperate you that we will not follow them? Also you keep referring to "outsiders" - are you a member of a cult?

Perhaps you are not aware of how this discussion has appeared, from the other end of the debate. Clearly you are well educated, and I am but a simple country boy from northern Appalachia with only a HS education. Can you see that someone like me, needs a solid foundation to support such a story as Calalus (and Oz) and that foundation must include supporting evidence found outside of the Silverbell road site, and documentation from an ancient source would be strong evidence as well.

This is why I have been pressing you for that kind of support to this story. For the sake of argument, let us assume that the tale of Calalus (as found on the Silverbell road items) was true, then where shall we find proof that this colony existed, signs of their military campaigns, a record of their departure from the Byzantine empire, perhaps some Arab chronicler made note of the escape of a squadron of ships past the straits of Gibraltar, or some Byzantine coins turned up by accident at a construction site in say, Galveston? Do you know of any other evidence, besides relying on the Calalus artifacts, and now Circlestone (which I find very dubious to connect with the story on several grounds but to continue) and the Peralta stones? If so, why not post these pieces of the puzzle? Do you think that kind of supporting evidence would result in less credibility? I can assure you the opposite would be the case.

You want me to answer your questions and of course to then follow the bread crumb trail. Well without a few answers (and a few photos of some of those texts recovered from the library of Oz) and some kind of supporting, "outside" evidence, I just can't do it. If you had posted a photo of a genuine inscription found in some cave in the Superstitions, written in koine Greek or Latin (even if very bad Latin) that appeared to be hundreds of years old, I would be far more willing to spend my limited amount of time in Arizona to go and check it out for myself.

Side thing here but you know, a fellow could have purchased some cheap Byzantine bronze coins, and posted photos of them to bolster your story line. Not suggesting you should do this, and it might be all too easy to discover such a subterfuge, and I do realize that most archaeologists attach almost no importance to the finding of ancient coins and especially in the Americas, but you see if there had been a Byzantine colony in Arizona in the eighth century AD, it is extremely likely they would have brought some coins with them, as well as armor, weapons, pottery (amphorae especially as they were the most common food storage containers in use for centuries) and these things would remain, even centuries after the last colonists had died off. Also they would have brought their knowledge of writing, if not their other technologies, and we ought to find inscriptions in the regions they visited, even if only as graffiti. Do you know of any such inscriptions, coins, pottery sherds, etc found anywhere in Arizona or Sonora?

Don't answer me with "yes the Calalus artifacts" again because I told you, I don't think they are real. I have been asking you to prove your story for quite some time, Joe even longer, something like ten years now.

Considering your apparent respect for ancient history (as you see it) it did rather surprise me at the way you showed such disrespect for the Hopi mythology. Does their story mean literally, people whom were lizards? Or could it be like most myths, hiding the truth in allegory, that perhaps these mysterious people they called "lizard people" were a culture that wore the skins of alligators, or, as with the strange giant serpent reported in the ancient Egyptian Shipwrecked Sailor's Tale, which turned out to be a troop of soldiers wearing scale armor, that at a distance appeared to be a gigantic and very frightening serpent winding its way toward him. Or perhaps the answer is even more far out, that they had encountered reptilian alien beings, people whom had landed on Earth for their own reasons, perhaps they too were shipwrecked, and this amazing encounter was recorded in the oral mythology of the Hopi people?

I am still waiting for my answers amigo, I think you have had plenty of time to ponder whether to post your replies or not, but although I pride myself on being a patient man, it is not limitless patience. As I mentioned, other tasks await my time, this discussion has gone on for years now and you are still trying to play games. So I am asking you nicely, please answer those questions about the library texts and the people in your group?

If you won't answer, as you have continued to do since they were first asked, you are intelligent enough to realize where the discussion is going to go. I would be happy to continue the discussion with you, but not with endless evasions by you. So go ahead, fire away, make me a believer!

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. I have a feeling this discussion is getting very close to its end. We will see, that much is certain.

Oroblanco

"Seldom are men granted both wisdom and good fortune at the same time" - Hasdrubal Haedrus
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

In a previous post the following was observed:

We are all the children of Calalus. Some of us older, some of us younger. Great sacrifices were made by those who preceded you. Today you sit in a beautiful museum surrounded by the history of your people and the history of a more ancient civilization. Both have many similarities. Both were destroyed because of their pride, both cared for a library that taught them to be better. Neither was. In the last days of Calalus it was decided to conceal the library and create artifacts that would be a testament to the people and a map home to their most holy place in the Superstition Mountains. A place we call Oz. A place they simply referred to as OL.

The soldiers, both men and women who died in the Superstitions saving Oz were the best of our people. They died to protect our heritage and a more ancient one. If you look out the windows to the cemetery you can see the last resting places of those we have brought home. You also know that one of them carved on a cave wall in the Canyon of the Souls, the words, "May the Stars keep you safe". From your text you can see a photograph of this. Now I will call your attention to the walls of the museum where this sentence is written in every language of mankind. Why so? It is because this soldier understood what he was about to die for. His people, and a library that would one day be a beacon to all mankind. A library that would teach us the preciousness of human life and how fragile it is. We are the shepherds of this world not its destroyers. You will come to understand the particular role that the people, who traveled the world by the stars, played in this project. The Star People.When the ancients sealed up the library and carved a O above its entrance to them it represented that the world was ending. They were wrong. Oz is just the beginning.

Who this beacon is handed off to is our decision.

This is your starting point:


1. The photo you posted is of one of the rather famous Tucson Artifacts. Which artifact? I will give you a hint the word begins with L.

2. Below the symbol you will see a temple. What are the three letters that appear below it?

3. On the reverse of this artifact are several symbols that are important in understanding both the Travis book and a physical landmark in Arizona. What are those symbols?

4. Variations of this symbol appear on several of the artifacts. What do those variations suggest?

5. This particular artifact suggests that the Tucson Artifacts were created by multiple parties. Why?

You see Roy if you want to understand the artifacts you will want to understand and answer these questions. If not you are just surfing the internet practicing voodoo history or laying traps.

Answer the questions Roy the duke will be proud of you.

Take it or leave it. And leaving is ok. This is not easy stuff. It never has been. That is not entirely so. It seems for a few it was.

Good luck with whatever path you take.


Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike can you read? Or do you just type out your own words, regardless of what was written to you?

You complained about repeating, and yet here you go again, repeating your same evasion. 8O :roll:

I must conclude that you are not able to answer three simple questions, that if your story were true, should be the simplest of all questions. What does this tell us about your story?

You continue to add on more and more elements to this tale. Now it includes a sunken ancient ship, in the Salt river. I guess I had that coming, since I asked what was next to be added on. :cry: :palm-hits-forehead-here:
Image

Joe and I have given you over ten years to lay your cards on the table and quit playing games. But do you stop? Nope - it is more of the same old stuff. Believe just believe! Follow the bread crumbs (add in dramatic music here) you have much to learn young grasshopper! :roll: What a manipulative fellow you are! It also appears that you are a pathological liar, and I do not make that statement lightly. :? I would love to have that statement proven wrong however.

Well since you can not answer three simple questions, you are sure welcome to continue to post your 'bait' to try to get people to follow your instructions and become one of the 'faithful' - when you decide you can be open and honest with me, or Joe, I will be happy to resume the discussion with you. Till that day arrives, hasta luego Klondike and the rest of your group, even if they are dwelling all in the same body or a real group of people all too frightened to reveal their real names. That includes Eldorado too.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

“If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.”
― Mark Twain

“Never hide things from hardcore thinkers. They get more aggravated, more provoked by confusion than the most painful truths.”
― Criss Jami
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

This is about no one but you and you alone.

You see the questions you were given to answer were aimed to help you find that which you proclaim to seek. They were also intended to help build confidence that you are a serious person in the pursuit of knowledge.

On the other hand your questions were simply a way for you have an excuse for failure. And at the end you have your excuse now and you can blame others.

Roy are you familiar with Plato`s allegory of the Cave? If not perhaps this will help:

"Plato has Socrates describe a gathering of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them, and begin to designate names to these shadows. The shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners".

Roy all that you have proved is you cannot handle the truth or the journey that is required to find it.

Good luck and may the stars keep you safe.

Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

You were treated with respect when you first came here as Late49er. You claimed you had a book, signed by Sims Ely and some letters. That was your first lie, and it was the first in a long line of prevarications.

It did not take long for respect to turn to total disbelief. You made your own bed, my friend, and then you made a mess in it. There is no turning this thing around at this point. You are in a deep hole and won't surrender the shovel.

There are few people who pay any attention to your post anymore, except for folks like NP and Roberts, who both have their own agendas. It's has been fun watching you follow our posts around and then try to weave them into your tale.

Without more than your word, which is not worth much, you will never convince Roy and myself that anything you have written is worth a plug nickel........unless you put it in a novel, as Roy and I have both suggested was the aim all along.

I know a little about ancient languages and writing so the chance of your producing a written language that is 10,000 years old, that anyone is capable of reading......today, are slim and none. The library of OZ will remain behind the wizard's curtain..........where it belongs.

I know Roy and I both wish you well, but don't take that for some kind of mental weakness. We are, and always have been amused at your little verbal dance.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Mr. Ribaudo:

Not really sure what your problem is with N.P. and Mr. Roberts. I have always found their posts a good read. Whether or not you agree or disagree with them they are respectful and seem to want to add to the body of knowledge regarding the Superstitions.

On the other hand your posts seem to more times than not get personal and you continually play the integrity card. What is really sad is that your behavior tends to infect others. Your calling folks liars has become routine, it is just boring but now Roy has picked up on your behavior and he now is doing the same thing. Sad legacy Joe, sad legacy.

I will just put this here. Maybe it will help your memory:

Mr. Ribaudo,


It is sad to see someone get as desperate as you. Because in desperation one makes mistake after mistake and whether they are pointed out or not they pile up and the totality of mistakes gives the true measure of a man. In the case of Calalus and the Tucson Artifacts it was demonstrated that your knowledge of the matter is limited to secondary sources and you lack an ability to engage in a dialogue regarding the artifacts on a fundamental level. But really that is not such a big deal. Few can. But your real weakness was to not be open for the possibility that something remarkable is sort of speak in your neck of the woods. You would have done a lot better to simply engage in a dialogue admit your limited knowledge and allow Starman to work with you. He was more than willing to do so.

Another trait of desperate people if when possible they will play the integrity card. Much the same way a person who is guilty of a crime will maintain their innocence to the end even when the truth is evident. Also desperate people will get others involved in their shameful behavior. Much as you have done with the Superstition Mountain Historical Society. Tell me Joe are they too so low that they sanction the publication of private e-mails? If those folks have a wit of integrity they will disown you and explain that they had nothing to do with this. If they don`t this simply validates one of the reasons we did not pursue things with them. You see Joe, your lack of integrity has now put into question the integrity of the Historical Society. If they sanction your behavior they are no better than you and in a sense worse. Worse because they claim to be honorable folks.

As we have made it clear we do not enjoy these kind of discussions and prefer to discuss issues on their merit but I see that is impossible. And as I mentioned before you are desperate and desperate people make mistakes. But what then was the mistake you made when you played the integity card? As in other things you simply did not do your homework.


I would refer anyone reading this to take the time to look at a short dialogue that was published on another web site, "The Lost Dutchman Mine". This dialogue appears in a section moderated by Joe Ribaudo and is entitled,"Jake`s ore". the dialogue occurred in October of 2005.

What is clear in this exchange is we were up front that after pursuing several possibilites in Arizona we decided that it was best to do something different. What we were oblique about is that when we said placement in the South we meant South Africa. If you notice what is telling Mr. Ribaudo recognizes his understanding and states, "I will mind my own business here".




Late,

I would suggest that you contact greyhair on this forum, or wait for the camp out and speak to him in person.

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

There is no real reason to speak with Grayhair. We have decided to donate the written material to a University in the South. We are currently discussing placement of the items with with two institutions. It is what it is.

Bill,

The information I am referencing comes from Martin`s diary. We still are debating what to do.



Regards,


Late 49er
Late,

Sorry, I just assumed you would be trying to place the material in Arizona. I will mind my own business here.

Joe,

We wanted to place the material in Arizona. It is clear that it is not wanted. We approached several entities in the state.

Joe,

I need to apologize for my remarks. Irregardless of the circumstances they were inappropriate.

I am sure the folks down there do a wonderful job in promoting Arizona at its history.


Regards,


Late49er

Bill

Have to admit there is a certain amount of humor to all of this.

But have to say the people we have selected will do a quality job and at the end of the day that is all that is really importent.

My associates are both from Georgia and we have selected an institution close to them, and actually given their efforts it is appropriate they receive recognition in their own neck of the woods.

Perhaps this history is better stored near the folks who preserved and nutured the area. Personally I am very proud of what has been done.

Hopefully we will post some material here soon that will be of interest to you.


Regards,


You see Mr. Ribaudo we do not stoop as low as you and the historical society. We simply use public sources. It is just wrong what you did.

Mr. Croves,

As anyone can see you are emotional and I am sorry if my response to you was taken wrong. I think that truthfully Martin did try to engage you and yes you threw him under the train. But that is Ok. Simply do your research.


When all is said and done I would like to repeat what I said in a previous post. It is also what Jim Bark meant. And this goes for all of us.


What is important is that Oz exists, the settlement of the ancients exist and there is a library in South Africa that tells the whole story. I believe one day that someone who saw the tv program on the Artifacts will sense wonder. They will remember Mr. Bent`s work that was shown and begin a journey of truth that will take them to Oz. It will not be an easy trail. They will be exposed to science that will claim the relics are fake, this they will overcome. They will visit the Superstitions and much like the MCGee`s see and experience things that simply do not add up. They perhaps will see these posts and begin to look at the Tucson Artifacts and go high up on a Saddle on the east side of West Boulder Canyon, see the symbol of the ancients, and follow the trail all the way to Horse Mesa. From there they will probably find something we have missed and make their way into the underground chambers there and follow the cave system that will take them up into Coronado Mesa and into the library of Oz. There they will see the map room that was the creation point of the trail maps and they will notice a simple chair. They will walk over to that chair and on that chair will be the address of a museum in South Africa with one simple message, "May the Stars keep you safe" I would imagine they will keep all of this to themselves and make their way to South Africa and knock on the entrance. I suspect they will bring the note and simply say, "May the stars keep you safe". They will be allowed in and experance the awe of wonder of the most important historical site in the world.


I look forward to meeting such a man.


May the stars keep you safe.



I would not worry to much about who is laughing at who. At the end of day perhaps folks are really laughing at you.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Wow - thank you Joe for those very kind words. And I see that Klondike (et al) is still at it, still attacking, never backing off a single verb of that tall tale, and still trying to manipulate. Actually this repeated attempting to manipulate other members here, is what a sociopath would do. Sociopaths are also very often pathological liars. They are also incapable of viewing anything from another person's point of view.

I had thought this story telling was pretty much harmless, heck I don't mind telling a tall tale myself, but if anyone thinks I am serious when telling it, I will make sure they know it is all in fun. Not so for Klondike.

http://www.naturalnews.com/036112_socio ... uence.html

Klondike has also given several clues that hint at more alarming things like perhaps a cult, often referring to us as "outsiders" while he is "in". There are even parallels with one of the darkest chapters of our history, linking his group to some ancient "pure" people, similar to the Aryan mythos that resulted in a terrible bloodbath.

Maybe this Oz-Calalus story and all that is tied in with it, is not so harmless after all. Other people do read our words here, often not posting or even being members - hence there are over 100,000 hits on this one thread (there are a couple of others) when only a few of us are even following it, it does not seem possible that a few people could have hit this thread that many times. If others are reading this discussion, they may well try to follow the various clues posted by Klondike et al and could end up injured, lost or even dead.

Joe, you and I have given Klondike plenty of time to level with us. He refuses, instead he is still playing games and trying to manipulate us. I see in the previous post, he is trying to turn this "proof" part back on me, as if I need to prove something. I am not the one posting a lot of farfetched claims and including a 10,000 year old library (two in one now, it has grown) that if it existed, would almost certainly be an unknown writing system and possibly an unknown language as well - and now we can add on a sunken ancient ship in the Salt river! And I am the one who needs to prove something! :roll: 8O :lol: :lol: :lol:

How did this sunken ship get into the Salt river? Did it sail around Cape Horn, then up into the gulf of California, then up the Colorado river and so forth, or did it go the longer route, passing the Cape of Good Hope and crossing both the Indian and Pacific oceans, then up the gulf of California and Colorado river etc? As you pointed out Joe, when a guy starts weaving such a tall tale, the danged details start to get complicated!

Perhaps you forgot, Klondike, that you first claimed the language of the Oz library was "Atlantian and a mix of Latin, Hebrew and Greek" - which of course would be a most peculiar mixture to find, and the Atlantian should be very similar to a known language which we know of because of the clues Plato gave on it. Why this library should have a collection of different languages is very odd, since it was common practice in the ancient world, to translate all works collected in a library. Hence the famous one at Alexandria, had every book translated into Greek. Supposedly also the one at Pergamum and the considerably smaller but still impressive one at Ephesus. It certainly appears that you do not know what language Atlantian is most closely related to, which makes your statement about the library languages very doubtful. What are these texts written in, 10,000 years ago, you are unable to answer. Does the information in them just flow into the brain via osmosis or ESP? Are they written in ancient braille?

You could have stopped this pesky questioning way back when Joe first broached it in 2012, by posting a few photos of some of the texts supposedly recovered from the Oz library. I asked you fourteen or fifteen times, and every time you have evaded the questions. See a pattern there? I do - in fact there are clear signs of sociopathy including pathological lying. Maybe also Dissociative Identity Disorder as well.http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/diss ... y-disorder

Of course that suspicion could have been put to rest by simply providing the names of the members of your group, which could then be checked and confirmed as real persons, rather than different aspects of the same personality.

Klondike you have failed to establish TRUST, and for the whole of your time here (along with your other group members posting) have been trying to manipulate others.

When challenged on any of your facts, you evade, insult and attack, rather than providing something solid that could be checked. You study your "opponents" <a sign of sociopathy>and I suspect you probably believe that you induced me to hike Fish creek canyon, although you could not tell me what I had with me at the time, which was obvious even from hundreds of yards away and indicates that you did not really see me there. Perhaps you saw my vehicle parked near the bridge.

I was going to just let you go on here, in the belief that your fantasies are harmless however clearly they are not harmless. Even in your own story, you have included several illegal activities and laud them in the highest terms. Your attempts to get people to hike in to remote and somewhat dangerous sites, could get someone hurt, lost or killed.

Why is it not surprising that Klondike would defend Mr Roberts, and NP with his mission in the Superstitions that was proven false. :roll: Birds of a feather?

I hope all is well with you Joe, and with you Klondike - hope you are able to break that barrier that hinders you from being open and honest some day.

Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

Seems Joe has done a fine job on you. He should be very proud. You have reached a whole new level of pathological dysfunctional behavior.

Let`s see is there anyone you don`t blame for your failures? :lol:

Simply figure it out, do you homework, and avoid the hissy fits.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

Seems Joe has done a fine job on you. He should be very proud. You have reached a whole new level of pathological dysfunctional behavior.

Let`s see is there anyone you don`t blame for your failures? :lol:

Simply figure it out, do you homework, and avoid the hissy fits.


Klondike
Rest assured Klondike, I could not be more relaxed and comfortable unless I were asleep. You may think that was an insult to say that Joe has been teaching me, but I take that as a very high compliment. Joe is a realist, with both feet firmly on the ground, and a very good historian. His library is impressive, and he has read every single book in that library, cover to cover. Joe is also as honest as the day is long - he won't even tell the occasional tall tale just for fun, but he is also patient and loyal. Joe could teach history, if he were so inclined, and not need to refer to the books for most of it. Were you to win over Joe, his word would carry much weight with me.

What failures are you trying to assign me? I have no problems accepting blame when I screw up. On the other hand, you have failed to establish trust and credibility even with Joe, whom you have been conversing for over ten years now. You have also failed to answer simple questions, and failed to provide a single piece of evidence to support your story line. In fact you are once again - PROJECTING. http://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/psychpedia/projection

BTW I do have plenty of homework to do - and totally unrelated to this topic. It is a matter of history, and getting the facts straight is the goal. Something you seem to have trouble with.

I do hope that you will seek help, not trying to be funny or sarcastic here but perhaps you have not noticed some of these symptoms that appear in your posts. It could not do any harm to get a checkup, something that probably would be wise for all people to do from time to time.

Side thing here but when I asked you what I had with me in my little 'hike' up Fish creek canyon, it was a DOG. This particular dog had proven very able to locate bones, in fact she had found and dug up mule bones that date back over a century and were well over a foot down at a murder site, and the mule bones had cut marks on them indicating that it had been butchered just as the story reported. I had hoped that if Mr Capen had the misfortune of falling off the cliffs, the dog might find a bone or piece of clothing etc somewhere in the canyon. She found bones, but they were animal bones and very old, and strangely, it turned out that Jesse had indeed fallen off a cliff. Should have taken her to that other cliff I guess. My failure! But if you or your compatriots had really seen me exploring that canyon, including the several times I nearly broke a leg on those roly-poly boulders and STEEP sides, you would have seen the dog as it was not small and was very active.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

You are right about one thing. Anyone trying to engage you in a dialogue obviously will require medical attention. :lol:

You may want to consider whether it is possible to have complete transparency when you tell folks your intent is to put folks in jail if they provide it and then beat them over the head when they refuse to provide it. Just a little thing you might want to think about.

This was always our goal:

"Perhaps for a long time you folks have asked the wrong question about what our motive was. Originally it was to remove the library for its own safety. Now the library has been converted to data that we can turn on in a second and make available to all mankind. It is quickly becoming apparent our job is done".

Our job is done where we go from here it is hard to say.

Perhaps we should just attribute all of this to a failure to communicate.

Good luck in your journeys.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
Hello Roy,

You are right about one thing. Anyone trying to engage you in a dialogue obviously will require medical attention.
You think I play rough? Sheesh. Some would say that it is crazy to keep trying to have a dialogue with you. A lot of folks think that anyone whom would go out searching for lost treasures is crazy. I do think you would not lose anything to have a check up.

Klondike also wrote
You may want to consider whether it is possible to have complete transparency when you tell folks your intent is to put folks in jail if they provide it and then beat them over the head when they refuse to provide it. Just a little thing you might want to think about.
Still repeating that dodge - more evasions. If I were going to try to get you prosecuted, I would have done so already. There are statutes of limitations on such crimes as you included in your tale, not like kidnapping or murder which have no time limits for prosecution. So long as the events happened more than seven years ago, and clearly it looks like it was more than that, you are 'home free'. With the artifacts and library safely in South Africa, no one would face any prosecution. The govt might ask for the return of the artifacts, or again they might not. So your evasion really is groundless. Just an excuse to not provide any photos to prove your story.

The proverbial ball is in your court, has been for quite some time, and you continue to evade and try to play more games.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

Logic? Surely you jest!

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe wrote
Logic? Surely you jest!
Nah - even Klondike knows he has been 'on the spot' ever since you asked him what language those books in the library of Oz are written in, and what kind of writing it is. Three years of evading such simple questions says a lot about his tale.

Some of this discussion has certainly been interesting, like Snaketown. I had never known about the ball courts there, which of course are still debated as some propose they are dance floors just like the Papago dance floors. Yet the finding of the natural rubber balls seems to seal the case (at least for me). The people who lived in Snaketown were trading with very distant peoples, hence the Macaw feathers found there. No mention of this kind of history in our history books, unless you get a "specialty" type book and often hard to find at that. In my opinion the wide-ranging trade that was taking place in the Americas prior to Columbus has been rather suppressed by historians because it endangers the Isolation theory. We have to think of all of the American Indians as groups living practically in isolation from their very neighbors, despite the proof of rather surprising trade links across thousands of miles and even at very distant dates.

I was also unaware that the Mexican national symbol of the snake and eagle may have originated at Snaketown - though that is far from proven at this stage. I wonder if future excavations will be allowed there?

Joe do you know if any fabrics were discovered at or near Snaketown? I am curious as to what sort of fabrics they used (cotton perhaps? Or the coarse cloth made from agave fibers?) and any kind of coloring/dye used on them. Thanks in advance, and as usual there is NO hurry to go hunt up an answer for me, I will trust your memory on it.

Roy
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

They did have cotton and were weaving cloth with it in Snaketown. There was also evidence that they ate cotton seeds as they do have nutritional value. They also had Agave, so they probably used that for fabric as well.

I did not have to search hard, as I have Emil Haury's fine book on "The Hohokam...." which is about the excavations at Snaketown, 1964-1965.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

They did have cotton and were weaving cloth with it in Snaketown. There was also evidence that they ate cotton seeds as they do have nutritional value. They also had Agave, so they probably used that for fabric as well.

I did not have to search hard, as I have Emil Haury's fine book on "The Hohokam...." which is about the excavations at Snaketown, 1964-1965.

Take care,

Joe
Thanks Joe - and that is odd about your choice of book (reference) as I was just looking up a copy of that very book, unfortunately the least expensive was over $50 (used) so it gets added on the to-buy list. I can slip a ten or twenty dollar book past our accountant without raising a blip but $50 will attract attention! (ha ha) :mrgreen:

I hope I can arrange it some day to spend a couple of weeks in your library - with a scanner and note pad! I hope you folks are staying COOL (this weather is made for AC) and I have a few more questions for you that I think you can probably recall off hand, will pop back this evening. I will explain about the cotton thing too if anyone reading this is curious.

Roy ~ Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

PS almost forgot but have you seen this Joe?

http://westerndigs.org/ancient-human-fo ... h-america/

I think they mis-titled it, as the article states the oldest human prints in western Canada, and there are those enigmatic prints in volcanic ash in Mexico, but interesting anyway.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Oroblanco wrote:
Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

They did have cotton and were weaving cloth with it in Snaketown. There was also evidence that they ate cotton seeds as they do have nutritional value. They also had Agave, so they probably used that for fabric as well.

I did not have to search hard, as I have Emil Haury's fine book on "The Hohokam...." which is about the excavations at Snaketown, 1964-1965.

Take care,

Joe
Thanks Joe - and that is odd about your choice of book (reference) as I was just looking up a copy of that very book, unfortunately the least expensive was over $50 (used) so it gets added on the to-buy list. I can slip a ten or twenty dollar book past our accountant without raising a blip but $50 will attract attention! (ha ha) :mrgreen:

I hope I can arrange it some day to spend a couple of weeks in your library - with a scanner and note pad! I hope you folks are staying COOL (this weather is made for AC) and I have a few more questions for you that I think you can probably recall off hand, will pop back this evening. I will explain about the cotton thing too if anyone reading this is curious.

Roy ~ Oroblanco
Roy,

There may be other copies available at less than this:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDet ... D100121503

I have seen the footprints site.

Just put rare Books in your search engine, and you will find a number of sites for used/new, rare books.

You are always welcome here.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

There may be other copies available at less than this:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDet ... D100121503

I have seen the footprints site.

Just put rare Books in your search engine, and you will find a number of sites for used/new, rare books.

You are always welcome here.

Take care,

Joe
Thanks for the tip Joe - and $35 is more reasonable than $50 for a used copy IMHO.

Klondike, Starman, Eldorado, Late49er, Ben, or we are still waiting for some photos of those texts recovered from that library. There is no crime in having a photo of an ancient text, or posting such a photo. I see that Starman has been linking the Latin Heart to a "temple" in the Superstitions now, what temple is he referring to, can any of your tell me? Is it a temple to Poseidon or for the Ark of the Covenant or is it an Hohokam temple?

How about posting a few paragraphs of the extended version of Critias which you referred to repeatedly? English or Greek will do. The ball remains in your court, so to speak.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

The place of worship that is indicated on the Latin Heart is one of the temples that is referenced on the Tucson Artifacts. Remember directly under the temple is 3 symbols. One representing the library, one representing the sign of the ancients, and one representing temple. A literal translation of those three symbols would be: A place of worship that contains the library of the ancients and the library of the people.

To you other point, as has been pointed out to me, does not take into consideration the impact of such a release of such information if it is not managed properly. And that is true.

If this is important to you then do your homework if not find another adventure.

There are too many harsh words been said here that are childish and if a dialogue is reduced to the lowest common denominator of the human intellect I had just as soon pass.

I will leave this with you. If you think those folks on TV ended up on Black Cross Butte and Fish Creek Canyon because they successfully triangulated the location of dead folks, next you will be believing Travis created the Latin Heart.

Klondike
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