Ben,
Have you ever questioned how the path/trench to the kiln could have been cut, leaving every artifact untouched and not uncovering others? By coincidence, I assume, the trench had to be created to
miss all evidence of the people of Calalus. No evidence of a great battle or bodies/artifacts, have
ever been found.
Using the lead artifacts as evidence of a (final) battle is ludicrous. Such "weapons" would be completely
impractical and, I believe, have no historical precedent. That being said, lead has been used in the manufacture of swords for centuries. 1-3% is the normal mix of lead for such weapons. Copper is the main ingredient with tin being mixed in at around 8-9%.
The people of Calalus would have been capable of producing much better metal for weapons. I imagine you have read the article by Don Burgess, so you should have answers for all of his questions/points.
Take care,
Joe
Yellow Jackets
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo
Perhaps it would serve us to return to the original focus of this discussion. At that time two different positions were put forward to explain the deposition of the artifacts on Silverbell Road.
1. The artifacts were planted approximately 10-20 years before the discovery.
2. The artifacts are legitimate and were dropped in a marshy area by the survivors of the destruction of Calalus.
It seems that your primary question was to explain how the artifacts could be found at various levels in the Caliche.
So now let us ask which position more adequately answers your concerns. It would seem to me that position two does. It is easy to understand that artifacts dropped in a marshy environment would in fact sink to different levels and that subsequent flooding would in fact sort the artifacts to different depositional levels.
The planting theory offers little to explain why the artifacts were found at different levels. It can only say the tricksters did what they did with no explanation as to why. Furthermore have you ever asked yourself why folks would go to all the trouble to create the artifacts if their purpose was simply to plant them on Silverbell Road? Just creating the artifacts by themselves would be no small accomplishment and then to plant them in hardened Caliche would require a tremendous amount of work. Was this what folks 20 years before the discovery of the artifacts were up to? Would someone of the intellectual attainment that was required to create the dialogue on the artifacts also have the skills to create them and given this have the interest in planting them on Silverbell Road. On the other hand the refugees of the destruction of Calalus didn`t have to create a story. They only had to record what they knew had happened. They used technology easily available to them, and most important they did not have to expend the resources to plant them they simply dropped them.
What I have always found remarkable about the planting arguments is they always at some point in time disconnect from the phenomena at hand. The folks that argue as you do that the relics were created before the discovery are simply overwhelmed by the why issue. The folks that argue they were created at the time of the discovery are overwhelmed by the stratification issue and the inability to provide any real villain in the whole business. I remember a while back reading a quite scholarly effort to put all of this, the planting, on the discoverers and almost fell on the floor laughing when the fellow seem to suggest that all of this was cooked up in the kitchen of one of the discoverers. Of course the assay reports done by Bent puts this nonsense to rest but it is a good read.
What seems to happen is that folks who believe in planting are desperate to find anything to show that the artifacts are not what they present themselves to be and simply move from one argument to the next trying to throw something up on the wall that will stick. This way they don`t have to look closely at the absurdity of their own position that is the artifacts were planted.
This takes us logically then to the Geology issue, which seems to be the last great hope of those who hope to prove all of this is a fraud. Basically their position seems to be the geologists will save them from having to deal with the truth. I imagine they all sing in chorus, thank God.
But what is it the Geologists are really saying. Well first off we can say honorable men can disagree. Do the Geologists who say the Geology on Silverbell Road proves the artifacts cannot possibly be what they present themselves to be really understand the Geology of Silverbell Road. I know personally one internationally regarded Geologist who understands this issue on a very basic level who simply says well nuts. It would tend to agree. But let`s take what Mr. Covey says and see if things are as clear as you seem to suggest.
On page 107 of Calalus Reopened Mr. Covey states:
“No one knew the rate of caliche deposition when Geologist Julian Hayden guessed the undisturbed caliche overlying Tucson artifacts Pleistocene/Early Holocene, notwithstanding absence of mastodon tusks, Clovis points, or extinct diatoms, etc. An engraved quotation from The Aeneid proved, rather, the artifacts could not predate the 1st century B.C. They were not Pleistocene, therefore fake. It seems not to have occurred to the distinguished scientist that if they were accurately self-dated 774-900 A.D. The caliche had been misdiagnosed. Hayden also did not think to compare caliche overlying Snaketown, 55 crowfly mi.NW on the Gila, whose foundations and potsherds that date largely contemporary with Tucson artifacts’ dates, were know medieval. So Hayden would not have been so illogical as to call Snaketown`s identical through shallower caliche Pleistocene. He knew it accumulated since the city`s total abandonment c.1450—an incredible accrual defying common sense, especially when factoring in the 12th century Great Drought.
I have often wondered, and not being a trained Geologist, perhaps these thoughts are completely nuts. Let’s say for the point of argument that the geological setting is Pleistocene. If at the time the artifacts were dropped and the history of the people is correct, that being the area was marshy, given subsequent flooding isn`t it possible the artifacts could be real and at the same time be in a Pleistocene setting. What do I know probably just a crazy thought? Perhaps you can help straighten me out on this.
Mr. Ribaudo you will do well to remember that what we are ultimately talking about here is history. The history or the earth and the history of human beings. Both have the same problems of interpretation. Anyone who claims to be able to write the final chapter on the artifacts by observing simply what they believe is in front of them today is doomed to failure. Essentially what these folks do is look for patterns, they fall flat footed in seeing the exception which is right in front of them. In a sense to understand the matter at hand you have to transport yourself back in time and through an act of imagination simply do the best you can and figure out what happened. There are no final answers. Only our best guesses. I know the artifacts on Silverbell Road are real only because I too am a historical being who can look back over the traditions and history of the people and see what happened. Oz, Circlestone, Calalus, the Trail Maps tell you one simple story. They were here. Of course the library of Oz was a huge help in putting it all together.
The people who left the artifacts are well understood. All you have to do to see this is take a shovel to Snaketown and dig down about two feet below the lowest depth that has previously been dug, take the time to understand artifact 18, after all there is a view on that artifact that you have contemplated and even took a picture of, look at the Trail Maps, understand that they operate on multiple levels not the least of which is a star chart, and look at the similar marking on the artifacts that identify a trail system in the Superstitions.
While most of your questions can be dealt with by a close reading of the Bent text I will take a moment to respond to some of your questions.
1. I don`t recall ever saying there was a battle on Silverbell Road. I don`t believe there was. From my readings the artifacts were simply dropped by a group of folks on the run. The weapons, well we can only speculate as to their purpose. Were they adequate for battle? Imagine so. You see they do exist and if they were not planted they are in fact real.
2. You question about the path/trench being cut without exposing other artifacts is based on a false premise. First we have no records of any discoveries but we do have an account that two weapons were found. It seems that both Cummings and Bent believed the story. I would expect there would not be a wealth of archeological evidence regarding the survivors of Calalus if they only camped here a few days with no battles being fought...
3. Yes I have read Mr. Burgess`s work and it is a remarkable effort to understand the issues. Having said that he falls, I believe into the planting side of all of this and his arguments must be viewed within that perspective... I could never figure out who he believed planted the artifacts. He seems to hint but never take a leap. Obviously anyone who puts a lot of credence into Haury`s importance in all of this does could use a bit of help. But that is a personal opinion and I am sure his work is an honest effort. Have to say I really enjoyed reading his work. I have no real interest in refuting his work. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
4. You seem to go back to this issue of money and Mr. Bent. Mr. Bent provides a solid rebuttal to this contention in his work. I believe him and know that the argument is fallacious. Perhaps you should re-read the Bent account. Also what is the point of the argument? You believe the artifacts were planted before the discoverers came along so what does this have to do with the artifacts being genuine?
5. As Bent has proven the University did a rather poor job in their efforts on SilverBell Road and I believe Cummings never believed the artifacts were planted. There is a bit of revisionist history that has been developed to suggest this line of thinking after the fact. Most of it pretty silly.
6. I believe the term Migration and Diffusion is the name of a magazine.
7. I believe bones were found during the dig. This along with the waxy substance was lost by the bad news bears over at the University. I have often wondered how this small bit of information was ignored by subsequent investigators. Wouldn`t bones suggest something?
So I have tried to answer some of the questions you have raised as best I can. I am not a Geologist. Klondike is. And he and I have walked the site on several occasions looking for things. I believe him when he tells me it is the real deal. And when I saw the same symbols in Oz and walked the underground sites near Wickenburg, Snaketown, and prayed in the Temple in Eldorado Canyon, well I need no more proof.
You have asked a number of questions, I would just like to ask you one. If the artifacts were planted why?
And one final thought. We are perfectly content with you folks believing whatever it is you believe. This has been an enjoyable dialogue and the next time I visit my home in Wickenburg, water my garden and look over at the last two maps I will simply smile, and simply think to myself since everyone has all the answers there must not be any more questions.
Would like to wish you and yours a happy holiday season. Going over to Atlanta to catch the Georgia Tech/Georgia game with some folks from Wake Forest and visit with family up in the North Georgia area.
Take Care,
Ben
Perhaps it would serve us to return to the original focus of this discussion. At that time two different positions were put forward to explain the deposition of the artifacts on Silverbell Road.
1. The artifacts were planted approximately 10-20 years before the discovery.
2. The artifacts are legitimate and were dropped in a marshy area by the survivors of the destruction of Calalus.
It seems that your primary question was to explain how the artifacts could be found at various levels in the Caliche.
So now let us ask which position more adequately answers your concerns. It would seem to me that position two does. It is easy to understand that artifacts dropped in a marshy environment would in fact sink to different levels and that subsequent flooding would in fact sort the artifacts to different depositional levels.
The planting theory offers little to explain why the artifacts were found at different levels. It can only say the tricksters did what they did with no explanation as to why. Furthermore have you ever asked yourself why folks would go to all the trouble to create the artifacts if their purpose was simply to plant them on Silverbell Road? Just creating the artifacts by themselves would be no small accomplishment and then to plant them in hardened Caliche would require a tremendous amount of work. Was this what folks 20 years before the discovery of the artifacts were up to? Would someone of the intellectual attainment that was required to create the dialogue on the artifacts also have the skills to create them and given this have the interest in planting them on Silverbell Road. On the other hand the refugees of the destruction of Calalus didn`t have to create a story. They only had to record what they knew had happened. They used technology easily available to them, and most important they did not have to expend the resources to plant them they simply dropped them.
What I have always found remarkable about the planting arguments is they always at some point in time disconnect from the phenomena at hand. The folks that argue as you do that the relics were created before the discovery are simply overwhelmed by the why issue. The folks that argue they were created at the time of the discovery are overwhelmed by the stratification issue and the inability to provide any real villain in the whole business. I remember a while back reading a quite scholarly effort to put all of this, the planting, on the discoverers and almost fell on the floor laughing when the fellow seem to suggest that all of this was cooked up in the kitchen of one of the discoverers. Of course the assay reports done by Bent puts this nonsense to rest but it is a good read.
What seems to happen is that folks who believe in planting are desperate to find anything to show that the artifacts are not what they present themselves to be and simply move from one argument to the next trying to throw something up on the wall that will stick. This way they don`t have to look closely at the absurdity of their own position that is the artifacts were planted.
This takes us logically then to the Geology issue, which seems to be the last great hope of those who hope to prove all of this is a fraud. Basically their position seems to be the geologists will save them from having to deal with the truth. I imagine they all sing in chorus, thank God.
But what is it the Geologists are really saying. Well first off we can say honorable men can disagree. Do the Geologists who say the Geology on Silverbell Road proves the artifacts cannot possibly be what they present themselves to be really understand the Geology of Silverbell Road. I know personally one internationally regarded Geologist who understands this issue on a very basic level who simply says well nuts. It would tend to agree. But let`s take what Mr. Covey says and see if things are as clear as you seem to suggest.
On page 107 of Calalus Reopened Mr. Covey states:
“No one knew the rate of caliche deposition when Geologist Julian Hayden guessed the undisturbed caliche overlying Tucson artifacts Pleistocene/Early Holocene, notwithstanding absence of mastodon tusks, Clovis points, or extinct diatoms, etc. An engraved quotation from The Aeneid proved, rather, the artifacts could not predate the 1st century B.C. They were not Pleistocene, therefore fake. It seems not to have occurred to the distinguished scientist that if they were accurately self-dated 774-900 A.D. The caliche had been misdiagnosed. Hayden also did not think to compare caliche overlying Snaketown, 55 crowfly mi.NW on the Gila, whose foundations and potsherds that date largely contemporary with Tucson artifacts’ dates, were know medieval. So Hayden would not have been so illogical as to call Snaketown`s identical through shallower caliche Pleistocene. He knew it accumulated since the city`s total abandonment c.1450—an incredible accrual defying common sense, especially when factoring in the 12th century Great Drought.
I have often wondered, and not being a trained Geologist, perhaps these thoughts are completely nuts. Let’s say for the point of argument that the geological setting is Pleistocene. If at the time the artifacts were dropped and the history of the people is correct, that being the area was marshy, given subsequent flooding isn`t it possible the artifacts could be real and at the same time be in a Pleistocene setting. What do I know probably just a crazy thought? Perhaps you can help straighten me out on this.
Mr. Ribaudo you will do well to remember that what we are ultimately talking about here is history. The history or the earth and the history of human beings. Both have the same problems of interpretation. Anyone who claims to be able to write the final chapter on the artifacts by observing simply what they believe is in front of them today is doomed to failure. Essentially what these folks do is look for patterns, they fall flat footed in seeing the exception which is right in front of them. In a sense to understand the matter at hand you have to transport yourself back in time and through an act of imagination simply do the best you can and figure out what happened. There are no final answers. Only our best guesses. I know the artifacts on Silverbell Road are real only because I too am a historical being who can look back over the traditions and history of the people and see what happened. Oz, Circlestone, Calalus, the Trail Maps tell you one simple story. They were here. Of course the library of Oz was a huge help in putting it all together.
The people who left the artifacts are well understood. All you have to do to see this is take a shovel to Snaketown and dig down about two feet below the lowest depth that has previously been dug, take the time to understand artifact 18, after all there is a view on that artifact that you have contemplated and even took a picture of, look at the Trail Maps, understand that they operate on multiple levels not the least of which is a star chart, and look at the similar marking on the artifacts that identify a trail system in the Superstitions.
While most of your questions can be dealt with by a close reading of the Bent text I will take a moment to respond to some of your questions.
1. I don`t recall ever saying there was a battle on Silverbell Road. I don`t believe there was. From my readings the artifacts were simply dropped by a group of folks on the run. The weapons, well we can only speculate as to their purpose. Were they adequate for battle? Imagine so. You see they do exist and if they were not planted they are in fact real.
2. You question about the path/trench being cut without exposing other artifacts is based on a false premise. First we have no records of any discoveries but we do have an account that two weapons were found. It seems that both Cummings and Bent believed the story. I would expect there would not be a wealth of archeological evidence regarding the survivors of Calalus if they only camped here a few days with no battles being fought...
3. Yes I have read Mr. Burgess`s work and it is a remarkable effort to understand the issues. Having said that he falls, I believe into the planting side of all of this and his arguments must be viewed within that perspective... I could never figure out who he believed planted the artifacts. He seems to hint but never take a leap. Obviously anyone who puts a lot of credence into Haury`s importance in all of this does could use a bit of help. But that is a personal opinion and I am sure his work is an honest effort. Have to say I really enjoyed reading his work. I have no real interest in refuting his work. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
4. You seem to go back to this issue of money and Mr. Bent. Mr. Bent provides a solid rebuttal to this contention in his work. I believe him and know that the argument is fallacious. Perhaps you should re-read the Bent account. Also what is the point of the argument? You believe the artifacts were planted before the discoverers came along so what does this have to do with the artifacts being genuine?
5. As Bent has proven the University did a rather poor job in their efforts on SilverBell Road and I believe Cummings never believed the artifacts were planted. There is a bit of revisionist history that has been developed to suggest this line of thinking after the fact. Most of it pretty silly.
6. I believe the term Migration and Diffusion is the name of a magazine.
7. I believe bones were found during the dig. This along with the waxy substance was lost by the bad news bears over at the University. I have often wondered how this small bit of information was ignored by subsequent investigators. Wouldn`t bones suggest something?
So I have tried to answer some of the questions you have raised as best I can. I am not a Geologist. Klondike is. And he and I have walked the site on several occasions looking for things. I believe him when he tells me it is the real deal. And when I saw the same symbols in Oz and walked the underground sites near Wickenburg, Snaketown, and prayed in the Temple in Eldorado Canyon, well I need no more proof.
You have asked a number of questions, I would just like to ask you one. If the artifacts were planted why?
And one final thought. We are perfectly content with you folks believing whatever it is you believe. This has been an enjoyable dialogue and the next time I visit my home in Wickenburg, water my garden and look over at the last two maps I will simply smile, and simply think to myself since everyone has all the answers there must not be any more questions.
Would like to wish you and yours a happy holiday season. Going over to Atlanta to catch the Georgia Tech/Georgia game with some folks from Wake Forest and visit with family up in the North Georgia area.
Take Care,
Ben
Re: Yellow Jackets
We wish you a very happy holiday season Ben, I have been following the discussion although not commenting or questioning. I hope you have a very pleasant journey.
As to the debate, having met Joe in person I can assure you that his purpose has not been simply to be a nay-sayer, nor for that matter was that what I wanted; Joe does try to keep an open mind, and his concerns about the Calalus artifacts are solidly based on expert opinions. I think what Joe (and I) have been saying is "convince us" - to ask you to present the case and sway our opinions. I don't think your debate has been in any way futile, nor Joe's. Debate of facts and opinions do further our knowledge, regardless of what the truth turns out to be.
Happy holidays Ben, if you decide to continue the discussion when you return I will be happy to read it.
Roy
As to the debate, having met Joe in person I can assure you that his purpose has not been simply to be a nay-sayer, nor for that matter was that what I wanted; Joe does try to keep an open mind, and his concerns about the Calalus artifacts are solidly based on expert opinions. I think what Joe (and I) have been saying is "convince us" - to ask you to present the case and sway our opinions. I don't think your debate has been in any way futile, nor Joe's. Debate of facts and opinions do further our knowledge, regardless of what the truth turns out to be.
Happy holidays Ben, if you decide to continue the discussion when you return I will be happy to read it.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
First of all, I am not desperate to prove anything. I am looking at the same evidence for the artifacts that you are.
"I have often wondered, and not being a trained Geologist, perhaps these thoughts are completely nuts. Let’s say for the point of argument that the geological setting is Pleistocene. If at the time the artifacts were dropped and the history of the people is correct, that being the area was marshy, given subsequent flooding isn`t it possible the artifacts could be real and at the same time be in a Pleistocene setting. What do I know probably just a crazy thought? Perhaps you can help straighten me out on this."
I don't see how I can "straighten" anyone out on the geology of Silverbell. As I have often said, I don't know $#!t about rocks, or even dirt for that matter. That being said, I am willing to give the people who have made their living in geology the benefit of the doubt, especially over professors of history and legal ethics.
The arguments put forth on the subject in the article by Don Burgess, are replete with verifiable facts by a number of professional in the field. Their geological history of the area, and the mountains above Tucson, seem to present a solid case for their conclusions. On the other hand, you don't really present any scientific facts to bolster your side of the debate. Supposition is not fact, which is what you are letting your emotions dictate. What if, suppose, it could be and possible won't win the debate.....in my eyes.
"It is also almost impossible to conceive of a current of water of sufficient velocity to move the leaden artifacts. If they had been carried to their present position by a strong current, they must have been deposited, not in an eddy, but in the midst of a rapidly moving stream. The artifacts are associated with very finely divided material, such as calcium carbonate. This occurs both below and above the position of the artifacts. This material is light and would not have been deposited anywhere except in and eddy. It is, therefore, hard to conceive of heavy material, such as the leaden crosses, and light material, calcium carbonate, being deposited together."
It seems to me, if you have any argument at all, it has to be OZ. At this point in time, there is exactly zero evidence that your OZ ever existed. Your theory that great battles took place from one end to the other of the Superstitions, killing most of the remaining people from Calalus has no physical evidence, which every great battle leaves in its wake, to prove that such a fight ever took place.
IMHO, it all boils down to OZ.
I really appreciate your replies, but need something with a little more meat on the bones.
Did you see OK State against Iowa tonight? One of the biggest upsets in college football in years.
Have a safe trip.
Joe
First of all, I am not desperate to prove anything. I am looking at the same evidence for the artifacts that you are.
"I have often wondered, and not being a trained Geologist, perhaps these thoughts are completely nuts. Let’s say for the point of argument that the geological setting is Pleistocene. If at the time the artifacts were dropped and the history of the people is correct, that being the area was marshy, given subsequent flooding isn`t it possible the artifacts could be real and at the same time be in a Pleistocene setting. What do I know probably just a crazy thought? Perhaps you can help straighten me out on this."
I don't see how I can "straighten" anyone out on the geology of Silverbell. As I have often said, I don't know $#!t about rocks, or even dirt for that matter. That being said, I am willing to give the people who have made their living in geology the benefit of the doubt, especially over professors of history and legal ethics.
The arguments put forth on the subject in the article by Don Burgess, are replete with verifiable facts by a number of professional in the field. Their geological history of the area, and the mountains above Tucson, seem to present a solid case for their conclusions. On the other hand, you don't really present any scientific facts to bolster your side of the debate. Supposition is not fact, which is what you are letting your emotions dictate. What if, suppose, it could be and possible won't win the debate.....in my eyes.
"It is also almost impossible to conceive of a current of water of sufficient velocity to move the leaden artifacts. If they had been carried to their present position by a strong current, they must have been deposited, not in an eddy, but in the midst of a rapidly moving stream. The artifacts are associated with very finely divided material, such as calcium carbonate. This occurs both below and above the position of the artifacts. This material is light and would not have been deposited anywhere except in and eddy. It is, therefore, hard to conceive of heavy material, such as the leaden crosses, and light material, calcium carbonate, being deposited together."
It seems to me, if you have any argument at all, it has to be OZ. At this point in time, there is exactly zero evidence that your OZ ever existed. Your theory that great battles took place from one end to the other of the Superstitions, killing most of the remaining people from Calalus has no physical evidence, which every great battle leaves in its wake, to prove that such a fight ever took place.
IMHO, it all boils down to OZ.
I really appreciate your replies, but need something with a little more meat on the bones.
Did you see OK State against Iowa tonight? One of the biggest upsets in college football in years.
Have a safe trip.
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hi Folks,
I have been reading these pages on the Relics discovery and must admit that it sounds like the war inside my head for the last 25 years. I think I found a solution to this mystery, and if I take the negative sides of each of your arguments, I think you are both right, but still left with the mystery.
One says they cannot be real, that the artifact assemblage does not imply a colony of 8th Century roman jews in southern Arizona.
The other side says it cannot be a hoax. that Bent and Manier could not be responsible since the artifacts were being excavated under close scrutiny and a lot of photographs. Besides, the mesquite tree they pulled out of there was dated to 50-yrs old by AE Douglas, aka mr. tree ring. Artifact #9 was exposed sticking out of the wall of the hole left by the tree when they pulled it. That’s when Douglas called a halt to the excavations and called Cummings, who was in Cuicuilco, Mx. At a minimum, that puts the burial/deposition of the artifacts at 1875.
Burgess concluded hoax because like most of those who could not explain them, and deparately relied on the default conclusion, Bent and Manier did it, or had a hand in it -- hence perpetuating the humiliation of Bent and his family's legacy. Again, the messengers get the blame. I told Burgess about the tree ring date that he left out of his tome, and he was pretty surprised. I believe it is discussed in Bent’s chapter 9, on science. Photos of the tree are early on in the book.
With respect to hoax in general, prior to 1875, there are only two historic groups in the region – early Catholics and Civil War armies -- that would have had the resources, time, energy, and purpose, to have carried out all that work, and then buried it. Why? The idea it was a Mormon planting conspiracy conducted to bring merit to their mythology? The Mormons distanced themselves from the Relics very early on, since the dates were over a thousand years later than their 500 BC comfort zone.
So if they are not real, and not a hoax, could they be a cache? Something that was not supposed to be found by strangers. Again, prior to 1875, the two groups could be narrowed down to Catholics and Civil War outfits. I think the square and compass and dinosaur and all the Hebrew could rule out the Catholics, leaving Sherod Hunter’s outfit the main suspect. I think there might be a link to the Knights of the Golden Circle, and probably to Albert Pike, and/or that the regalia belonged to a Masonic field lodge inside Sherod's outfit. Also, maybe there is a similar tie to the Las Lunas stone. Like one of the relics, it also references the ten commandments. Below is a link to an archaeological forum where I posted these ideas last year.
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewt ... f=9&t=2764
One thing that just happened a few days ago was looking at the name Theodorus, on the Relics, the first king (?). You can pull Sherod out of that name, (??)
Chris
I have been reading these pages on the Relics discovery and must admit that it sounds like the war inside my head for the last 25 years. I think I found a solution to this mystery, and if I take the negative sides of each of your arguments, I think you are both right, but still left with the mystery.
One says they cannot be real, that the artifact assemblage does not imply a colony of 8th Century roman jews in southern Arizona.
The other side says it cannot be a hoax. that Bent and Manier could not be responsible since the artifacts were being excavated under close scrutiny and a lot of photographs. Besides, the mesquite tree they pulled out of there was dated to 50-yrs old by AE Douglas, aka mr. tree ring. Artifact #9 was exposed sticking out of the wall of the hole left by the tree when they pulled it. That’s when Douglas called a halt to the excavations and called Cummings, who was in Cuicuilco, Mx. At a minimum, that puts the burial/deposition of the artifacts at 1875.
Burgess concluded hoax because like most of those who could not explain them, and deparately relied on the default conclusion, Bent and Manier did it, or had a hand in it -- hence perpetuating the humiliation of Bent and his family's legacy. Again, the messengers get the blame. I told Burgess about the tree ring date that he left out of his tome, and he was pretty surprised. I believe it is discussed in Bent’s chapter 9, on science. Photos of the tree are early on in the book.
With respect to hoax in general, prior to 1875, there are only two historic groups in the region – early Catholics and Civil War armies -- that would have had the resources, time, energy, and purpose, to have carried out all that work, and then buried it. Why? The idea it was a Mormon planting conspiracy conducted to bring merit to their mythology? The Mormons distanced themselves from the Relics very early on, since the dates were over a thousand years later than their 500 BC comfort zone.
So if they are not real, and not a hoax, could they be a cache? Something that was not supposed to be found by strangers. Again, prior to 1875, the two groups could be narrowed down to Catholics and Civil War outfits. I think the square and compass and dinosaur and all the Hebrew could rule out the Catholics, leaving Sherod Hunter’s outfit the main suspect. I think there might be a link to the Knights of the Golden Circle, and probably to Albert Pike, and/or that the regalia belonged to a Masonic field lodge inside Sherod's outfit. Also, maybe there is a similar tie to the Las Lunas stone. Like one of the relics, it also references the ten commandments. Below is a link to an archaeological forum where I posted these ideas last year.
http://archaeologica.boardbot.com/viewt ... f=9&t=2764
One thing that just happened a few days ago was looking at the name Theodorus, on the Relics, the first king (?). You can pull Sherod out of that name, (??)
Chris
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pippinwhitepaws
- Expert
- Posts: 831
- Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 2:30 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
whew....
armies in arizona?????? who was that? certainly not the confederates...the had a few people...not even a true battalion...
the union did send troops, who founded fort whipple and camp verde...
these troops were more concerned with captian walker, CSA, discharged for wounds...in the walker/prescott area...who was removing gold from the bradshaws...and shipping it to california.
any serious historian will tell you all the grown men in tucson hid in bars til the end of the war, and the arrival of troops to subdue the apache.
{duh}
the mormon battalion, was more of a wagon train, than a fighting force.
the only "civil war " battle in arizona was pichao peak, and less than ten men were killed or wounded...
while caliche is a renewable resource....just add water to our desert and watch it grow to the surface...i find it difficult to accept any of the explanations for these artifacts...
{i should say objects, since artifacts have some provenance}.
there has never been an "army" in arizona...army men...and women...
in troop or battalion strength...nothing more...
until WWII. when general Patton had a division in training....out of california.
these things would be more believeable if reality and fact were in the mixture.
good sicience fiction though
armies in arizona?????? who was that? certainly not the confederates...the had a few people...not even a true battalion...
the union did send troops, who founded fort whipple and camp verde...
these troops were more concerned with captian walker, CSA, discharged for wounds...in the walker/prescott area...who was removing gold from the bradshaws...and shipping it to california.
any serious historian will tell you all the grown men in tucson hid in bars til the end of the war, and the arrival of troops to subdue the apache.
{duh}
the mormon battalion, was more of a wagon train, than a fighting force.
the only "civil war " battle in arizona was pichao peak, and less than ten men were killed or wounded...
while caliche is a renewable resource....just add water to our desert and watch it grow to the surface...i find it difficult to accept any of the explanations for these artifacts...
{i should say objects, since artifacts have some provenance}.
there has never been an "army" in arizona...army men...and women...
in troop or battalion strength...nothing more...
until WWII. when general Patton had a division in training....out of california.
these things would be more believeable if reality and fact were in the mixture.
good sicience fiction though
Re: Yellow Jackets
welcome to my world.
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22sher ... =firefox-a
http://azrebel.tripod.com/page6.html
"On February 10, 1862, Captain Hunter and Company A, Baylor's Regiment of Arizona Rangers were ordered to proceed to Tucson, Arizona, there to establish an advanced military post for observation of Union forces known to be gathering in California, and to pacify the surrounding area, which was under threat of attack by the dreaded Apache Indians.10 These orders marked the beginning of Captain Hunter's Arizona Campaign, which was to last until May 14, 1862. Arriving in Tucson on 27 February 1862, Hunter conducted a brilliant hit-and-run campaign in which his tiny Confederate force (consisting of less than 100 men) liberated what is now the state of Arizona from the rule of the United States, carried the Confederate flag to within 80 miles of the Colorado River (the farthest west penetration of the Confederate army), captured or destroyed foodstuffs and hay stored for the use of a 2,000-man Union army from California, thus delaying the advance of said army by more than a month, and fought and won the westernmost skirmish (Stanwix Station, March 30, 1862) and battle (Picacho Pass, April 15, 1862) of the War Between the States. During this campaign they inflicted losses of 3 killed, 4 wounded, and ten captured on the Californians, for a loss of only three men captured (by the Yankees at Picacho Pass) and one dead (not by enemy action...Private Benjamin Mays died ofpleurisy at San Simon on 25 February 1862).11 They also fought 2 engagements against the Apaches in which they lost four men killed (at Dragoon Springs on May 5, 1862) while in return slaying five of their enemies (on May 9, also near Dragoon Springs).12 They were finally forced to evacuate Tucson on May 14, 1862, arriving back at Mesilla on May 27, 1862.13 When the Confederate Army of New Mexico evacuated the Mesilla region and went back to Texas, Captain Hunter and Company A (which had, in June 1862, been amalgamated with other Arizona cavalry companies to form Lt. Col. Philemon T. Herbert's Battalion of Arizona Cavalry) went with them.14" ... (more)
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22sher ... =firefox-a
http://azrebel.tripod.com/page6.html
"On February 10, 1862, Captain Hunter and Company A, Baylor's Regiment of Arizona Rangers were ordered to proceed to Tucson, Arizona, there to establish an advanced military post for observation of Union forces known to be gathering in California, and to pacify the surrounding area, which was under threat of attack by the dreaded Apache Indians.10 These orders marked the beginning of Captain Hunter's Arizona Campaign, which was to last until May 14, 1862. Arriving in Tucson on 27 February 1862, Hunter conducted a brilliant hit-and-run campaign in which his tiny Confederate force (consisting of less than 100 men) liberated what is now the state of Arizona from the rule of the United States, carried the Confederate flag to within 80 miles of the Colorado River (the farthest west penetration of the Confederate army), captured or destroyed foodstuffs and hay stored for the use of a 2,000-man Union army from California, thus delaying the advance of said army by more than a month, and fought and won the westernmost skirmish (Stanwix Station, March 30, 1862) and battle (Picacho Pass, April 15, 1862) of the War Between the States. During this campaign they inflicted losses of 3 killed, 4 wounded, and ten captured on the Californians, for a loss of only three men captured (by the Yankees at Picacho Pass) and one dead (not by enemy action...Private Benjamin Mays died ofpleurisy at San Simon on 25 February 1862).11 They also fought 2 engagements against the Apaches in which they lost four men killed (at Dragoon Springs on May 5, 1862) while in return slaying five of their enemies (on May 9, also near Dragoon Springs).12 They were finally forced to evacuate Tucson on May 14, 1862, arriving back at Mesilla on May 27, 1862.13 When the Confederate Army of New Mexico evacuated the Mesilla region and went back to Texas, Captain Hunter and Company A (which had, in June 1862, been amalgamated with other Arizona cavalry companies to form Lt. Col. Philemon T. Herbert's Battalion of Arizona Cavalry) went with them.14" ... (more)
Re: Yellow Jackets
Greetings Chris,
An interesting alternative explanation you have. I think it might be productive to research the CS + Masonic angle further.
Pippin wrote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Te ... America%29
an interesting chapter also covers this:
http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/ha ... div.4.html
One has to wonder when sherod would have found time to have such artifacts made up, for the lead alloy castings (as I understand it, all are cast) would have required original moulds for each to be poured, then to be hastily buried or otherwise end up in caliche with the Yankees breathing down their necks - ???
It is possible of course but when did Sherod or his men have time to create and then conceal the artifacts? And why bother to hide them at all, for that matter?
I have had a problem with the artifacts from a different angle, personally; the existence of an 8th century Roman-Jewish-Samaritan colony in Arizona would mean that they must have left the Roman (actually Byzantine) world to arrive in AZ. The seafaring capabilities of the Byzantines, while considerably better than has been generally supposed (as is shown in recent discoveries and studies) falls short on crossing the Atlantic unless by sheer accident. Then too, we have some of the records of the Byzantines themselves, and for a whole colony of some province to flee, having to pass the straits of Gibraltar where they would likely be noticed, is never mentioned. So the Calalus "colony" seems to spring from nowhere.
Not to say that it is impossible that any people arrived in America from the Old World in ancient times, just that in those cases where we see some indication, there are usually matching ancient documents that support such visits. As for the 'library' of "Oz" we have yet to see even a single photo, so (for me) it is as ephemeral as the Oz with the wizard and Dorothy. If as it is claimed, the "library" has been cleaned out, illegally looting rare ancient artifacts and documents from American soil and then smuggling to a foreign country (South Africa) then I sincerely hope that the perpetrators will be caught and punished, and the artifacts and documents returned to their rightful place in an American museum.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, and wishing you a very Happy Thanksgiving!
Roy
An interesting alternative explanation you have. I think it might be productive to research the CS + Masonic angle further.
Pippin wrote
I agree; the CS invasion force into AZ was quite small, and did not stick around long. As to Col Sherod's linkage with the Masons, while possible I would like to see some documentation. Wiki has a decent article on Confederate Arizona:these things would be more believeable if reality and fact were in the mixture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_Te ... America%29
an interesting chapter also covers this:
http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/ha ... div.4.html
One has to wonder when sherod would have found time to have such artifacts made up, for the lead alloy castings (as I understand it, all are cast) would have required original moulds for each to be poured, then to be hastily buried or otherwise end up in caliche with the Yankees breathing down their necks - ???
It is possible of course but when did Sherod or his men have time to create and then conceal the artifacts? And why bother to hide them at all, for that matter?
I have had a problem with the artifacts from a different angle, personally; the existence of an 8th century Roman-Jewish-Samaritan colony in Arizona would mean that they must have left the Roman (actually Byzantine) world to arrive in AZ. The seafaring capabilities of the Byzantines, while considerably better than has been generally supposed (as is shown in recent discoveries and studies) falls short on crossing the Atlantic unless by sheer accident. Then too, we have some of the records of the Byzantines themselves, and for a whole colony of some province to flee, having to pass the straits of Gibraltar where they would likely be noticed, is never mentioned. So the Calalus "colony" seems to spring from nowhere.
Not to say that it is impossible that any people arrived in America from the Old World in ancient times, just that in those cases where we see some indication, there are usually matching ancient documents that support such visits. As for the 'library' of "Oz" we have yet to see even a single photo, so (for me) it is as ephemeral as the Oz with the wizard and Dorothy. If as it is claimed, the "library" has been cleaned out, illegally looting rare ancient artifacts and documents from American soil and then smuggling to a foreign country (South Africa) then I sincerely hope that the perpetrators will be caught and punished, and the artifacts and documents returned to their rightful place in an American museum.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, and wishing you a very Happy Thanksgiving!
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: Yellow Jackets
Howdy Roy,
On the Pro/Genuine side, that the Relics are what they say they are, I read in the 5 volume set called The History of the Jews, that their navigation guild, the Naviculari, took over from the Phoenicians ~ 200 AD. That might provide the means.
And then there's a little nugget. A Jewish Princedom in Feudal France, 768-900 (Study in Jewish History). This provides a contemporaneous Jewish “kingdom” that was sanctioned by Rome.
http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Princedom- ... 0231032986
Another oft cited thing about New World Romans is the gridded layout of Teotihuacan, the only gridded city design in the Americas, which the Romans were also doing in the Old World. Donno. Food for thought.
This is a good summary of Hunter in Tucson.
http://www.bitsofblueandgray.com/conf_camp_page_4.htm
Also, there are recent metallurgical reports I am trying to obtain that ID the lead as pot metal. Having seen the relics up close, it seems there might be a couple types of lead being used. Every one needs to be assayed. Maybe they brought in a few of the pieces from somewhere else. (?) In the link above, there is a list for Sherod's mission, but I am sure they were always on the lookout for mines and precious resources. And I like the possible link to Las Lunas. It would sure solve some anomalous loose ends in the sw archaeological record.
W/ respect to transoceanic diffusion, the Solutrean-Clovis connection is open and shut. Also, the Olmec and the Shang Dynasty could be an explosive connection. It's all fun.
On the Pro/Genuine side, that the Relics are what they say they are, I read in the 5 volume set called The History of the Jews, that their navigation guild, the Naviculari, took over from the Phoenicians ~ 200 AD. That might provide the means.
And then there's a little nugget. A Jewish Princedom in Feudal France, 768-900 (Study in Jewish History). This provides a contemporaneous Jewish “kingdom” that was sanctioned by Rome.
http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Princedom- ... 0231032986
Another oft cited thing about New World Romans is the gridded layout of Teotihuacan, the only gridded city design in the Americas, which the Romans were also doing in the Old World. Donno. Food for thought.
This is a good summary of Hunter in Tucson.
http://www.bitsofblueandgray.com/conf_camp_page_4.htm
Also, there are recent metallurgical reports I am trying to obtain that ID the lead as pot metal. Having seen the relics up close, it seems there might be a couple types of lead being used. Every one needs to be assayed. Maybe they brought in a few of the pieces from somewhere else. (?) In the link above, there is a list for Sherod's mission, but I am sure they were always on the lookout for mines and precious resources. And I like the possible link to Las Lunas. It would sure solve some anomalous loose ends in the sw archaeological record.
W/ respect to transoceanic diffusion, the Solutrean-Clovis connection is open and shut. Also, the Olmec and the Shang Dynasty could be an explosive connection. It's all fun.
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hola amigo Chris,
Very good points indeed, yet still with rather large problems. That there were Jewish "kingdoms" or colonies located around the Mediterranean is well established, in Carthage, Spain etc after the Diaspora. However we need a record of a Jewish-Samaritan group that fled or emigrated, not one that was simply existing.
Linking the Calalus artifacts to Los Lunas is even more problematical; the Calalus relics are clearly Christian or quasi-Christian, while the Los Lunas dekalogue is believed by most to be Jewish religion. The Calalus artifacts are largely written in Latin, while Los Lunas is in either Hebrew or Phoenician. Then there is the time line problem - for the Los Lunas to date to the time of Solomon and thus be explainable, would mean that it was 1700-1800 years older than the Calalus artifacts. I am not convinced the Los Lunas dekalogue is even a set of the Ten commandments for there are problems in that too; like to interpret it as 10 commandments, you have to start with the top line, skip to the 3rd line, then go back into the 2nd line (that one was inserted later, hence the smaller line spacing !), it then goes on with the left half of the 3rd line and continues all the way down to the last line. You also have to ignore two words on line 4. It can be read in Phoenician and you get a very different translation, without having to do that odd hatchet job of reading it or ignore words.
I think that many skeptics would take issue in your characterizing the Solutrean solution as it has been phrased, but if you add in the Cactus Hill points the odd time gap and technical changes are worked out. The problem with that as a fallback position is again the timeline - for we are talking Ice Age, not 800 AD. I am convinced that Solutrean people came to America across the Atlantic, but that is over ten thousand years before the alleged Calalus colony. Seafaring during Medieval times was not on a par with the age of Columbus or even with the Classical age, there would be many problems for a cross-oceanic voyage in a typical Byzantine merchant ship of the eighth century AD.
I think Sherod Hunter has a better candidacy as the source of the Calalus artifacts than the Roman-Jewish-Samaritan theory, on the grounds mentioned.
Roy
Very good points indeed, yet still with rather large problems. That there were Jewish "kingdoms" or colonies located around the Mediterranean is well established, in Carthage, Spain etc after the Diaspora. However we need a record of a Jewish-Samaritan group that fled or emigrated, not one that was simply existing.
Linking the Calalus artifacts to Los Lunas is even more problematical; the Calalus relics are clearly Christian or quasi-Christian, while the Los Lunas dekalogue is believed by most to be Jewish religion. The Calalus artifacts are largely written in Latin, while Los Lunas is in either Hebrew or Phoenician. Then there is the time line problem - for the Los Lunas to date to the time of Solomon and thus be explainable, would mean that it was 1700-1800 years older than the Calalus artifacts. I am not convinced the Los Lunas dekalogue is even a set of the Ten commandments for there are problems in that too; like to interpret it as 10 commandments, you have to start with the top line, skip to the 3rd line, then go back into the 2nd line (that one was inserted later, hence the smaller line spacing !), it then goes on with the left half of the 3rd line and continues all the way down to the last line. You also have to ignore two words on line 4. It can be read in Phoenician and you get a very different translation, without having to do that odd hatchet job of reading it or ignore words.
I think that many skeptics would take issue in your characterizing the Solutrean solution as it has been phrased, but if you add in the Cactus Hill points the odd time gap and technical changes are worked out. The problem with that as a fallback position is again the timeline - for we are talking Ice Age, not 800 AD. I am convinced that Solutrean people came to America across the Atlantic, but that is over ten thousand years before the alleged Calalus colony. Seafaring during Medieval times was not on a par with the age of Columbus or even with the Classical age, there would be many problems for a cross-oceanic voyage in a typical Byzantine merchant ship of the eighth century AD.
I think Sherod Hunter has a better candidacy as the source of the Calalus artifacts than the Roman-Jewish-Samaritan theory, on the grounds mentioned.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: Yellow Jackets
Well, the guys in Tucson were called Roman Jews for a reason. There were plenty of hebrew letters and several jewish ceremonial items. There are also glaring errors with the latin on the Relics. Maybe the errors were intentional. Maybe they are clues. Albert Pike and friends still remain the most logical source of both attempts at fake writing. It had to be a group who had a big enough crew to bury the suckers 6ft deep over an area of about 2000-2500 sqft.
Re: Yellow Jackets
Gentlemen:
The artifacts on Silverbell Road and Valsequillo Reservior have one simple message. They were here. Because of this their discoverers were villified and treated with contempt. The difference being that Bent knew the artifacts were real before he passed away. He saw the truth.
The artifacts themselves? The academic community in Mexico, I believe primarily one person, simply did away with them. In America the artifacts made their way to the descendents of the people who created them while the folks in Tucson were delivered a wonderous copy. The best that money could buy. Bent appreciated the irony. The academic community was convinced the artifacts were a fraud. The ones in Tucson are. It really is quite funny. The real artifacts are safely stashed in an underground remain of Calalus near Wickenburg, Arizona.
The library of Oz is also safe. In a galaxy far, far away. After all Atlantis, Calalus is nonsense anyway, isn`t it? And who would want to be part of destroying the foundations of a great American Religion? Perhaps more people than you can imagine wanted Oz safely out of America.
The children of Calalus are still with you.
May the stars keep each of you safe.
Klondike
The artifacts on Silverbell Road and Valsequillo Reservior have one simple message. They were here. Because of this their discoverers were villified and treated with contempt. The difference being that Bent knew the artifacts were real before he passed away. He saw the truth.
The artifacts themselves? The academic community in Mexico, I believe primarily one person, simply did away with them. In America the artifacts made their way to the descendents of the people who created them while the folks in Tucson were delivered a wonderous copy. The best that money could buy. Bent appreciated the irony. The academic community was convinced the artifacts were a fraud. The ones in Tucson are. It really is quite funny. The real artifacts are safely stashed in an underground remain of Calalus near Wickenburg, Arizona.
The library of Oz is also safe. In a galaxy far, far away. After all Atlantis, Calalus is nonsense anyway, isn`t it? And who would want to be part of destroying the foundations of a great American Religion? Perhaps more people than you can imagine wanted Oz safely out of America.
The children of Calalus are still with you.
May the stars keep each of you safe.
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,klondike wrote:Gentlemen:
The artifacts on Silverbell Road and Valsequillo Reservior have one simple message. They were here. Because of this their discoverers were villified and treated with contempt. The difference being that Bent knew the artifacts were real before he passed away. He saw the truth.
The artifacts themselves? The academic community in Mexico, I believe primarily one person, simply did away with them. In America the artifacts made their way to the descendents of the people who created them while the folks in Tucson were delivered a wonderous copy. The best that money could buy. Bent appreciated the irony. The academic community was convinced the artifacts were a fraud. The ones in Tucson are. It really is quite funny. The real artifacts are safely stashed in an underground remain of Calalus near Wickenburg, Arizona.
The library of Oz is also safe. In a galaxy far, far away. After all Atlantis, Calalus is nonsense anyway, isn`t it? And who would want to be part of destroying the foundations of a great American Religion? Perhaps more people than you can imagine wanted Oz safely out of America.
The children of Calalus are still with you.
May the stars keep each of you safe.
Klondike
Interesting spin on what took place. At first, the "discoverers", at Silverbell, were treated with the utmost respect and efforts were made to give them all possible assistance. That included manpower and the written offer to purchase the artifacts, if they proved to be legitimate. The terms were very generous for the time. When the evidence turned against the "artifacts" authenticity, the vitriol and name calling came from the opposite direction you suggest.
The fact that someone has hidden all of the "evidence" does not bode well for the truth of your story. The fact that you have chosen this forum for floating your story publicly, is also a strike against any truth that might have once been attached to the artifacts.
The scientific evidence/facts at Silverbell make a much better case against the artifacts than your flights of fantasy and twisting of the facts make for them. You have created an interesting work of fiction here, going far beyond what the original story suggested.
Your "faith" will not work for most of the people who are reading these posts. Without some small bit of physical evidence, you have wasted a number of years here. You seem upset that we question the truth of your story, much like what happened to the folks at Silverbell. They, at least, had the artifacts to lean on.
I am still waiting for the book. That is the only point in all of this. If there is no book forthcoming, you are missing a few sandwiches in your picnic basket.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
I really was interested in your answer to the question of who planted the artifacts. Seems we have one vote for the Confederates, one vote for the survivors of Calalus, and it appears the intellectual community votes to lay it all on the discoverers.
I have to assume you simply believe they were planted but by who and why is of little importance. Interesting position to say the least.
It seems to me Mr. Bent was treated poorly but that it is my opinion, and subsequent investigations were by any standard well pitiful. And really that was not a bad thing. Much good came from it.
On another subject this is really a special time of year to visit the Chapel of the Cross in Sedona. Beautiful, beautiful place. It seems to me the folks responsible for all of this were very, very special. Imagine there was quite the inspiration to build such a structure in such a incredible place.
This is a very special Christmas. A time for celebration and joy for the people.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Ben
I really was interested in your answer to the question of who planted the artifacts. Seems we have one vote for the Confederates, one vote for the survivors of Calalus, and it appears the intellectual community votes to lay it all on the discoverers.
I have to assume you simply believe they were planted but by who and why is of little importance. Interesting position to say the least.
It seems to me Mr. Bent was treated poorly but that it is my opinion, and subsequent investigations were by any standard well pitiful. And really that was not a bad thing. Much good came from it.
On another subject this is really a special time of year to visit the Chapel of the Cross in Sedona. Beautiful, beautiful place. It seems to me the folks responsible for all of this were very, very special. Imagine there was quite the inspiration to build such a structure in such a incredible place.
This is a very special Christmas. A time for celebration and joy for the people.
Merry Christmas to you and yours.
Ben
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben:
The history of both Marguerite Brunswig Staude and her chapel is well represented here:
http://www.gatewaytosedona.com/article/id/83/page/1
Got no idea where you came up with the revisions,but according to the history,Sedona was only one of many possible locations.
"Staude investigated many potential sites with her husband and the architects, but it was when they flew over Sedona that the future home of the Chapel of the Holy Cross seemed to declare itself. First, an RX-the apothecary emblem--had been painted in the rocks at the foot of the spur. (Staude's father had made his fortune in the wholesale drug business.) Second, and more significant, Staude saw a sight that still delights and humbles visitors to the Chapel-a red rock formation to the east that looks like the Madonna and child, surrounded by rock figures that some people say look like praying nuns; others like the three wise men. "
Seems Los Angeles or Budapest were her first two choices.
But Sedona was do-able.
"She studied under renowned artists in Greece, Italy, Paris, Mexico and the United States. Yet it was in New York City that she dreamed of building a cathedral.
A cruciform style dominated the original sketches she shared with Lloyd Wright — son of Frank Llyod Wright — who created an architectural model respecting Brunswig Staude’s sculptural format.
Working together for over a year their plans were printed and ready to implement.
But her attempts to build the cathedral in Los Angeles and Budapest, Hungary failed. Brunswig Stuade’s construction efforts paused for 25 years.
After marrying Anthony Staude in 1938 the couple purchased a Sedona ranch in 1941 as a vacation home. It was here that Brunswig Staude’s dream dramatically changed from building a cathedral to building a chapel dedicated to finding God through art."
http://www.catholicsun.org/2006/july6/l ... hapel.html
Regards:SH.
The history of both Marguerite Brunswig Staude and her chapel is well represented here:
http://www.gatewaytosedona.com/article/id/83/page/1
Got no idea where you came up with the revisions,but according to the history,Sedona was only one of many possible locations.
"Staude investigated many potential sites with her husband and the architects, but it was when they flew over Sedona that the future home of the Chapel of the Holy Cross seemed to declare itself. First, an RX-the apothecary emblem--had been painted in the rocks at the foot of the spur. (Staude's father had made his fortune in the wholesale drug business.) Second, and more significant, Staude saw a sight that still delights and humbles visitors to the Chapel-a red rock formation to the east that looks like the Madonna and child, surrounded by rock figures that some people say look like praying nuns; others like the three wise men. "
Seems Los Angeles or Budapest were her first two choices.
But Sedona was do-able.
"She studied under renowned artists in Greece, Italy, Paris, Mexico and the United States. Yet it was in New York City that she dreamed of building a cathedral.
A cruciform style dominated the original sketches she shared with Lloyd Wright — son of Frank Llyod Wright — who created an architectural model respecting Brunswig Staude’s sculptural format.
Working together for over a year their plans were printed and ready to implement.
But her attempts to build the cathedral in Los Angeles and Budapest, Hungary failed. Brunswig Stuade’s construction efforts paused for 25 years.
After marrying Anthony Staude in 1938 the couple purchased a Sedona ranch in 1941 as a vacation home. It was here that Brunswig Staude’s dream dramatically changed from building a cathedral to building a chapel dedicated to finding God through art."
http://www.catholicsun.org/2006/july6/l ... hapel.html
Regards:SH.
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Somehiker,
I have always been impressed with Mrs. Staude`s creation, "a chapel dedicated to finding God through art". I would imagine the only thing that would complete it would be an observatory. Perhaps the chapel is very, very close to a ancient site. A site that opens many gates.
If Aristotle is correct that all men seek happiness and happiness is a life of action goverened by virture, I suspect happiness would be quite easy in a place like this.
As far as the history of the Chapel goes perhaps there is another history. Just think still today some folks believe the trail maps and the priest/horse whatever were created by the same person. Seems a bit silly to me. Having said that it is very true that one was created as a reaction to the other.
Just as the trail maps were created as a reaction to the map room of Oz.
It seems to me that the beauty of Sedona would not be lost on the people. Their name for this piece of paradise was Rhoda. A more ancient people also visited but their major interest was the Superstitions.
Have a joyful holiday season.
Ben
I have always been impressed with Mrs. Staude`s creation, "a chapel dedicated to finding God through art". I would imagine the only thing that would complete it would be an observatory. Perhaps the chapel is very, very close to a ancient site. A site that opens many gates.
If Aristotle is correct that all men seek happiness and happiness is a life of action goverened by virture, I suspect happiness would be quite easy in a place like this.
As far as the history of the Chapel goes perhaps there is another history. Just think still today some folks believe the trail maps and the priest/horse whatever were created by the same person. Seems a bit silly to me. Having said that it is very true that one was created as a reaction to the other.
Just as the trail maps were created as a reaction to the map room of Oz.
It seems to me that the beauty of Sedona would not be lost on the people. Their name for this piece of paradise was Rhoda. A more ancient people also visited but their major interest was the Superstitions.
Have a joyful holiday season.
Ben
Re: Yellow Jackets
The Ark of the Covenant.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Randy,
The Ark of the Covenant? Good question. The library of Oz went back at least 10000 years and chronicled the world of a more ancient people. America was a very interesting place from what can be determined.
On another ancient story that is of interest to some folks is the history of the holy grail. The library of Oz had documents from the time proir to Calalus and continuing through the existence of the Colony that establishes the holy grail was in fact Mary and that her bloodline in facts continues. Surprisingly enough there is much truth in the movie, The Davince Code. I have often wondered how history would have been different if the contents of the library had been discovered by Coronado and other searchers. Would the Church have simply destroyed the whole library in the hopes of maintaining a world view that is basically wrong. As Late used to say God is inside each of us. A church cannot give us what is already there.
The irony of the library is that the ancients came to America as did the settlers of Calalus looking for power and wealth. The library that they created was the true treasure. Maybe Plato did have the last laugh. The lost portions of the Critias only confirms what the Library of Oz was a tribute to. The truth. Then again Plato always had hidden meanings in his dialogues. Good thing certain types of analysis have never been used on the Critias. A gentleman in England who has done a lot of work understanding the dialogues could see quite clearly the dialogue, both the complete version and the one in the public domain is quite true.
Perhaps it is better that the contents of the library are with the folks who cared for it for so long and sacrificed so much. A good thing folks discounted the Tucson Artifacts for so long. No better road map to Oz ever existed.
94.6%Pb, 4.7%Sb, 91.6Pb, 7.6%Sb, 0.6Ag, 0.3%Sn, 0.2%Cu. Any thoughts?
Klondike
The Ark of the Covenant? Good question. The library of Oz went back at least 10000 years and chronicled the world of a more ancient people. America was a very interesting place from what can be determined.
On another ancient story that is of interest to some folks is the history of the holy grail. The library of Oz had documents from the time proir to Calalus and continuing through the existence of the Colony that establishes the holy grail was in fact Mary and that her bloodline in facts continues. Surprisingly enough there is much truth in the movie, The Davince Code. I have often wondered how history would have been different if the contents of the library had been discovered by Coronado and other searchers. Would the Church have simply destroyed the whole library in the hopes of maintaining a world view that is basically wrong. As Late used to say God is inside each of us. A church cannot give us what is already there.
The irony of the library is that the ancients came to America as did the settlers of Calalus looking for power and wealth. The library that they created was the true treasure. Maybe Plato did have the last laugh. The lost portions of the Critias only confirms what the Library of Oz was a tribute to. The truth. Then again Plato always had hidden meanings in his dialogues. Good thing certain types of analysis have never been used on the Critias. A gentleman in England who has done a lot of work understanding the dialogues could see quite clearly the dialogue, both the complete version and the one in the public domain is quite true.
Perhaps it is better that the contents of the library are with the folks who cared for it for so long and sacrificed so much. A good thing folks discounted the Tucson Artifacts for so long. No better road map to Oz ever existed.
94.6%Pb, 4.7%Sb, 91.6Pb, 7.6%Sb, 0.6Ag, 0.3%Sn, 0.2%Cu. Any thoughts?
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
"The Ark of the Covenant? Good question. The library of Oz went back at least 10000 years and chronicled the world of a more ancient people. America was a very interesting place from what can be determined."
As one of the few people in to world to have seen the "library of Oz", can you tell us what language it's contents were written in?
Thanks in advance,
Joe
"The Ark of the Covenant? Good question. The library of Oz went back at least 10000 years and chronicled the world of a more ancient people. America was a very interesting place from what can be determined."
As one of the few people in to world to have seen the "library of Oz", can you tell us what language it's contents were written in?
Thanks in advance,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
Peter is out of pocket for a while so let`s see.
Just curious did you ever figure out who planted the Tucson Artifacts?
The library of Oz has been visited by a number of folks. As far as languages go I am no expert but it is safe to say the language of the Ancients was not created by the locals. It seems they made a lot of effort to understand the languages of native peoples but their representation in the library is rather limited.
The ancients recorded their history on copper and gold plates. It simply put is the language of Atlantis. The balance is a mixture of Greek, Hebrew, Latin and other languages. The Map Room was by far, at least to me the most interesting. There side by side were languages that allowed one to understand most of what was stored there. One could say the Map Room was truly a Rosetta Stone that opened many gates.
Interestingly enough the language of the ancients always seemed to me to be more of a song than a language. Those folks had a real concern for beauty and balance in their logos. Really is quite beautiful.
Since a portion of the library of Oz is recorded on this site, one could argue that English is the major language of the library in America.
Didn`t realize language was an interest of yours. Did you know that the word mona is a Greek word for a stopping place and in Cherokee the word mona means the land where the Elohi tarried. After the fall of Calalus many refugees made their way east and settled in the south. Imagine there are oral histories there that speak of such things and those stories are handed down from one generation to the next.
Could be the Cherokees are quite close to all of this.
Ben
Peter is out of pocket for a while so let`s see.
Just curious did you ever figure out who planted the Tucson Artifacts?
The library of Oz has been visited by a number of folks. As far as languages go I am no expert but it is safe to say the language of the Ancients was not created by the locals. It seems they made a lot of effort to understand the languages of native peoples but their representation in the library is rather limited.
The ancients recorded their history on copper and gold plates. It simply put is the language of Atlantis. The balance is a mixture of Greek, Hebrew, Latin and other languages. The Map Room was by far, at least to me the most interesting. There side by side were languages that allowed one to understand most of what was stored there. One could say the Map Room was truly a Rosetta Stone that opened many gates.
Interestingly enough the language of the ancients always seemed to me to be more of a song than a language. Those folks had a real concern for beauty and balance in their logos. Really is quite beautiful.
Since a portion of the library of Oz is recorded on this site, one could argue that English is the major language of the library in America.
Didn`t realize language was an interest of yours. Did you know that the word mona is a Greek word for a stopping place and in Cherokee the word mona means the land where the Elohi tarried. After the fall of Calalus many refugees made their way east and settled in the south. Imagine there are oral histories there that speak of such things and those stories are handed down from one generation to the next.
Could be the Cherokees are quite close to all of this.
Ben
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hi Ben,
[Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
Peter is out of pocket for a while so let`s see.
Just curious did you ever figure out who planted the Tucson Artifacts?
The library of Oz has been visited by a number of folks. As far as languages go I am no expert but it is safe to say the language of the Ancients was not created by the locals. It seems they made a lot of effort to understand the languages of native peoples but their representation in the library is rather limited.
The ancients recorded their history on copper and gold plates. It simply put is the language of Atlantis. The balance is a mixture of Greek, Hebrew, Latin and other languages. The Map Room was by far, at least to me the most interesting. There side by side were languages that allowed one to understand most of what was stored there. One could say the Map Room was truly a Rosetta Stone that opened many gates.
Interestingly enough the language of the ancients always seemed to me to be more of a song than a language. Those folks had a real concern for beauty and balance in their logos. Really is quite beautiful.
Since a portion of the library of Oz is recorded on this site, one could argue that English is the major language of the library in America.
Didn`t realize language was an interest of yours. Did you know that the word Mona is a Greek word for a stopping place and in Cherokee the word Mona means the land where the Elohi tarried. After the fall of Calalus many refugees made their way east and settled in the south. Imagine there are oral histories there that speak of such things and those stories are handed down from one generation to the next.
Could be the Cherokees are quite close to all of this.
Ben]
I am also not an expert on language's, but I am very familiar with the history of "written" languages. I guess it was "Peter" who wrote:
"The Ark of the Covenant? Good question. The library of Oz went back at least 10000 years and chronicled the world of a more ancient people. America was a very interesting place from what can be determined."
I assume that the books in the library were not "at least 10000 years" old. If the language of Atlantis is part of the written work in the library, there is no one who could possibly read them, as Atlantis is said to have existed thousands of years before the first known writing,
which would have been Sumerian or, more precisely, cuneiform script.
There are many similarities between words and meanings around the world. In many cases it is random chance, in others there is a direct link between cultures.
"One could say the Map Room was truly a Rosetta Stone that opened many gates."
If that's true, who gave you the right to hide/protect that knowledge from the world, for whom it must have been intended.
I don't really care how the "artifacts" got buried in the middle of the caliche deposits. What seems obvious is that someone did plant them where they were found.
Will there be a book coming soon?
Take care,
Joe
[Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
Peter is out of pocket for a while so let`s see.
Just curious did you ever figure out who planted the Tucson Artifacts?
The library of Oz has been visited by a number of folks. As far as languages go I am no expert but it is safe to say the language of the Ancients was not created by the locals. It seems they made a lot of effort to understand the languages of native peoples but their representation in the library is rather limited.
The ancients recorded their history on copper and gold plates. It simply put is the language of Atlantis. The balance is a mixture of Greek, Hebrew, Latin and other languages. The Map Room was by far, at least to me the most interesting. There side by side were languages that allowed one to understand most of what was stored there. One could say the Map Room was truly a Rosetta Stone that opened many gates.
Interestingly enough the language of the ancients always seemed to me to be more of a song than a language. Those folks had a real concern for beauty and balance in their logos. Really is quite beautiful.
Since a portion of the library of Oz is recorded on this site, one could argue that English is the major language of the library in America.
Didn`t realize language was an interest of yours. Did you know that the word Mona is a Greek word for a stopping place and in Cherokee the word Mona means the land where the Elohi tarried. After the fall of Calalus many refugees made their way east and settled in the south. Imagine there are oral histories there that speak of such things and those stories are handed down from one generation to the next.
Could be the Cherokees are quite close to all of this.
Ben]
I am also not an expert on language's, but I am very familiar with the history of "written" languages. I guess it was "Peter" who wrote:
"The Ark of the Covenant? Good question. The library of Oz went back at least 10000 years and chronicled the world of a more ancient people. America was a very interesting place from what can be determined."
I assume that the books in the library were not "at least 10000 years" old. If the language of Atlantis is part of the written work in the library, there is no one who could possibly read them, as Atlantis is said to have existed thousands of years before the first known writing,
which would have been Sumerian or, more precisely, cuneiform script.
There are many similarities between words and meanings around the world. In many cases it is random chance, in others there is a direct link between cultures.
"One could say the Map Room was truly a Rosetta Stone that opened many gates."
If that's true, who gave you the right to hide/protect that knowledge from the world, for whom it must have been intended.
I don't really care how the "artifacts" got buried in the middle of the caliche deposits. What seems obvious is that someone did plant them where they were found.
Will there be a book coming soon?
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
Oh I would contend that how the artifacts arrived on Silverbell is quite significant. The same planting argument was made regarding the discoveries made at Valsequillo Reservoir, and like the planting assertions regarding the Tucson Artifacts were pretty silly. If you haven`t read Mr. Hardaker`s work, The First American, pick it up. Great Read. Have to say the effort by the Mexican intellectual community to kill this discovery was a bit more impressive than the efforts of the locals in Arizona.
The library of Oz is safe with our people. At the end of the day the world is simply not ready for what was in there. Are you really interested in destroying two great religions. Regardless of their validity they do a lot of good and the world would be a poorer place with out them. Faith is sometimes more important that the truth. Many great things have been accomplished because illusions were kept whole. Just consider the LDM. It is a great illusion. But what a wonderful tale. And to think you folks got a Bible out of all of this.
There is a canyon in the Superstitions that we could not bear to harm. In that canyon are remains of Latin, Hebrew, Greek and the language of Atlantis. It is not too hard to find. One might say the two monuments you discovered along with certain celestial information would take you right there. The Ancients wrote a beautiful poem there and succeeding people added to it. The poem is about the Thunder God.
Did you ever think that the way to find Atlantis was to simply look not for the destroyed remains of a people many, many leagues beneath the Ocean but to find her treasures in a out of the way place that was simply cherished and cared for by so many for such a long, long time. Perhaps that is what the cross in Sedona is all about.
Yes the ancients had a language. The most beautiful language that was ever created.
No books. You know how such things can be full of mis-information. Imagine whale beaching is simply too time consuming. No point anyway.
Ben
Oh I would contend that how the artifacts arrived on Silverbell is quite significant. The same planting argument was made regarding the discoveries made at Valsequillo Reservoir, and like the planting assertions regarding the Tucson Artifacts were pretty silly. If you haven`t read Mr. Hardaker`s work, The First American, pick it up. Great Read. Have to say the effort by the Mexican intellectual community to kill this discovery was a bit more impressive than the efforts of the locals in Arizona.
The library of Oz is safe with our people. At the end of the day the world is simply not ready for what was in there. Are you really interested in destroying two great religions. Regardless of their validity they do a lot of good and the world would be a poorer place with out them. Faith is sometimes more important that the truth. Many great things have been accomplished because illusions were kept whole. Just consider the LDM. It is a great illusion. But what a wonderful tale. And to think you folks got a Bible out of all of this.
There is a canyon in the Superstitions that we could not bear to harm. In that canyon are remains of Latin, Hebrew, Greek and the language of Atlantis. It is not too hard to find. One might say the two monuments you discovered along with certain celestial information would take you right there. The Ancients wrote a beautiful poem there and succeeding people added to it. The poem is about the Thunder God.
Did you ever think that the way to find Atlantis was to simply look not for the destroyed remains of a people many, many leagues beneath the Ocean but to find her treasures in a out of the way place that was simply cherished and cared for by so many for such a long, long time. Perhaps that is what the cross in Sedona is all about.
Yes the ancients had a language. The most beautiful language that was ever created.
No books. You know how such things can be full of mis-information. Imagine whale beaching is simply too time consuming. No point anyway.
Ben
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
While there are some striking similarities between the circumstances surrounding Calalus and
Valsequillo Reservoir, the artifacts are of another world altogether. I notice our old friend
Cyclone Covey was involved there as well.
Someone else I have had contact with in the past, is Dr. Michael D. Coe, and he also wrote a few
lines concerning the findings at Valseqillo Reservoir. They can be found in his book, "Mexico". As well as having Dr. Coe's book, I also have Mr. Hardaker's book.
Personally, I am waiting for a more definitive conclusion to be reached on the available evidence before putting that discovery to bed. Like Calalus, the major piece of evidence has left the building......so to speak.
"And to think you folks got a Bible out of all of this."
Really....."You folks"
What holy book did you folks get out of OZ? One that must be hidden from the world, even though the "truth" is in there. I am interested in the truth, no matter who or what is hiding behing the lies.
Take care,
Joe
While there are some striking similarities between the circumstances surrounding Calalus and
Valsequillo Reservoir, the artifacts are of another world altogether. I notice our old friend
Cyclone Covey was involved there as well.
Someone else I have had contact with in the past, is Dr. Michael D. Coe, and he also wrote a few
lines concerning the findings at Valseqillo Reservoir. They can be found in his book, "Mexico". As well as having Dr. Coe's book, I also have Mr. Hardaker's book.
Personally, I am waiting for a more definitive conclusion to be reached on the available evidence before putting that discovery to bed. Like Calalus, the major piece of evidence has left the building......so to speak.
"And to think you folks got a Bible out of all of this."
Really....."You folks"
What holy book did you folks get out of OZ? One that must be hidden from the world, even though the "truth" is in there. I am interested in the truth, no matter who or what is hiding behing the lies.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
Let`s see. The Stone Maps, The Tucson Artifacts, Circlestone, Calalus, Oz, The Bible. You folks really have been given a wealth of things to ponder. Perhaps the first thing to do is consider what is the common element in all of these gifts.
I would just offer that deception and revealing are the common traits.
For example the Stone Maps. You might want to consider the distinction between the typesetter and the creater. There is one. A very big one. Also I would look at the marvelous and strange friends Pegleg had.
So how do the maps reveal and conceal and what has all of this to deal with their purpose. To understand that you have to be comfortable with the notion of contradiction and to not ask of the phenomena that which it cannot answer.
1. The trail maps were created by someone who really did not understand what they were doing. That is why it is for the lack of a better word a mess. Your interpretation of the maps is correct but not complete. The trail maps can only take you a way to the mystery. That is both their truth and their deception.
2. The H/P whatever is total deception but does take you to specific places.
3. What makes all of this possible is the tie in of the maps to a very, very old prexisting trail system.
4. There is another mystery of the trail maps. Why is it that Fish Creek Canyon runs like a hot wire right through the middle of it? Why does the trail maps have a trail but doesn`t have one, and yet the ultimate end of the trail is in a canyon not far from Fish Creek Canyon and the Salt River. But then again a searcher has been there for years.
The purpose of the maps is also a contradiction. There is no single purpose. Only the currents of a thousand plus years of protecting the holy. Imagine you could argue the most important purpose of the trail maps is to protect the holy, if you are comfortable with that reality.
Anyway for us the Superstitions has its appeal, particularly Roger`s Canyon but the rest who really cares. I would not spend to much effort looking for the end of the trail. It was lost a long, long time ago.
The library of Oz contained the foundations of a number of holy books. Not really surprising when you consider that the divine is in each of us. We only have to open the gate.
Anyway good luck in your searches.
Klondike
Let`s see. The Stone Maps, The Tucson Artifacts, Circlestone, Calalus, Oz, The Bible. You folks really have been given a wealth of things to ponder. Perhaps the first thing to do is consider what is the common element in all of these gifts.
I would just offer that deception and revealing are the common traits.
For example the Stone Maps. You might want to consider the distinction between the typesetter and the creater. There is one. A very big one.
Also I would look at the marvelous and strange friends Pegleg had.So how do the maps reveal and conceal and what has all of this to deal with their purpose. To understand that you have to be comfortable with the notion of contradiction and to not ask of the phenomena that which it cannot answer.
1. The trail maps were created by someone who really did not understand what they were doing. That is why it is for the lack of a better word a mess. Your interpretation of the maps is correct but not complete. The trail maps can only take you a way to the mystery. That is both their truth and their deception.
2. The H/P whatever is total deception but does take you to specific places.
3. What makes all of this possible is the tie in of the maps to a very, very old prexisting trail system.
4. There is another mystery of the trail maps. Why is it that Fish Creek Canyon runs like a hot wire right through the middle of it? Why does the trail maps have a trail but doesn`t have one, and yet the ultimate end of the trail is in a canyon not far from Fish Creek Canyon and the Salt River. But then again a searcher has been there for years.
The purpose of the maps is also a contradiction. There is no single purpose. Only the currents of a thousand plus years of protecting the holy. Imagine you could argue the most important purpose of the trail maps is to protect the holy, if you are comfortable with that reality.
Anyway for us the Superstitions has its appeal, particularly Roger`s Canyon but the rest who really cares. I would not spend to much effort looking for the end of the trail. It was lost a long, long time ago.
The library of Oz contained the foundations of a number of holy books. Not really surprising when you consider that the divine is in each of us. We only have to open the gate.
Anyway good luck in your searches.
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
There is no real way to reply to your last post, as it was full of riddles, with no answers.
To return to your earlier post trying to make some connection between Valseqillo Reservoir and Calalus, I have one question that applies to both.
How did these two disparate groups of people manage to each appear in a single place without leaving a single sign or artifact from any previous location? Man does not move across the landscape without leaving a plethora of signs for his passing.
You have no such art before, or after, for Valseqillo, and no equal for Calalus before they show up at Silver Bell. In my unqualified opinion, that's a huge red flag. Fraud is rampant in this field.
Take care,
Joe
There is no real way to reply to your last post, as it was full of riddles, with no answers.
To return to your earlier post trying to make some connection between Valseqillo Reservoir and Calalus, I have one question that applies to both.
How did these two disparate groups of people manage to each appear in a single place without leaving a single sign or artifact from any previous location? Man does not move across the landscape without leaving a plethora of signs for his passing.
You have no such art before, or after, for Valseqillo, and no equal for Calalus before they show up at Silver Bell. In my unqualified opinion, that's a huge red flag. Fraud is rampant in this field.
Take care,
Joe