So Ben,
Would it be safe to assume, from your long silence, that you don't really want to discuss the Bent Manuscript?
Are there statements in there that you just can't defend? That would make sense to me, as Mr. Bent knew nothing about archaeology. For instance, he had no knowledge of the history or prehistory of the Gila River, and made erroneous comments about it, in relation to his finds, that anyone knowledgeable in local archaeological history should know.
I will understand if you have changed your mind about such a discussion.
Take care,
Joe
Yellow Jackets
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
I have been out of pocket for a while and just saw your post today.
I believe there are a number of copies out there. Seems you should be able to secure one from a library.
The copy I have was given to my father by Bent and has some rather personal information that I am not prepared to share. Mr. Bent was kind enough to autograph dad`s copy.
On page 352 of Bent`s work is the following quote:
"As I stated, in the beginning, this is not a literary gem, but, I hope, that if have provided something of interest to the reader and of some signifance to prosperity. It is the most complete factual narrative report of this mysterious find, that has been written. It not only presents the correct factural matter of record, but emphasizes the honorable and unassailable interest and activities of all of the fine people who sincerely participated in the discovery and unearthing of the Tucson Artifacts".
You see Mr. Ribaudo if you acquaint yourself with Bent`s effort you will have to come to grips with the well bullshit that has been propogated in the name of science over the last 80 years regarding those items. I should know we helped.
Who know maybe your heroes will not come out so well in all of this. Perhaps an individual who claimed the artifacts were planted was not even there the day those particular items were discovered. Maybe you will question what really happened to the University records in all of this and why so much either disappeared or simply walked away on its own. Mysterious fires, failed memories all are a part of this.
And at the bottom of all of this a honest man that the tradition ignored as they continued to lay down lawyer after lawyer of intellectual nonsense. Nonsense they would have gotten away with except Mr. Bent was an honest man.
I suspect if you read Bent that you will become his biggest fan.
By the way the discovery site of the artifacts has the same geological issues as the Snaketown location.
And did you know that at the same time the Tucson Artifacts were being discovered a similar discovery was made at Casa Grande that bears on all of this?
I will be glad to discuss the Bent work with you.
Take Care,
Klondike
I have been out of pocket for a while and just saw your post today.
I believe there are a number of copies out there. Seems you should be able to secure one from a library.
The copy I have was given to my father by Bent and has some rather personal information that I am not prepared to share. Mr. Bent was kind enough to autograph dad`s copy.
On page 352 of Bent`s work is the following quote:
"As I stated, in the beginning, this is not a literary gem, but, I hope, that if have provided something of interest to the reader and of some signifance to prosperity. It is the most complete factual narrative report of this mysterious find, that has been written. It not only presents the correct factural matter of record, but emphasizes the honorable and unassailable interest and activities of all of the fine people who sincerely participated in the discovery and unearthing of the Tucson Artifacts".
You see Mr. Ribaudo if you acquaint yourself with Bent`s effort you will have to come to grips with the well bullshit that has been propogated in the name of science over the last 80 years regarding those items. I should know we helped.
Who know maybe your heroes will not come out so well in all of this. Perhaps an individual who claimed the artifacts were planted was not even there the day those particular items were discovered. Maybe you will question what really happened to the University records in all of this and why so much either disappeared or simply walked away on its own. Mysterious fires, failed memories all are a part of this.
And at the bottom of all of this a honest man that the tradition ignored as they continued to lay down lawyer after lawyer of intellectual nonsense. Nonsense they would have gotten away with except Mr. Bent was an honest man.
I suspect if you read Bent that you will become his biggest fan.
By the way the discovery site of the artifacts has the same geological issues as the Snaketown location.
And did you know that at the same time the Tucson Artifacts were being discovered a similar discovery was made at Casa Grande that bears on all of this?I will be glad to discuss the Bent work with you.
Take Care,
Klondike
Re: Yellow Jackets
Mr. Ribaudo,
I really should proof this stuff. Layer after layer, not lawyer after lawyer. Have to say there might be something to that mistake.
that I have provided, not if have provided.
Hope you get a copy, read it and get back to me. I am interested in your thoughts.
Klondike
I really should proof this stuff. Layer after layer, not lawyer after lawyer. Have to say there might be something to that mistake.
that I have provided, not if have provided.
Hope you get a copy, read it and get back to me. I am interested in your thoughts.
Klondike
Re: Yellow Jackets
Mr. Ribaudo,
If you indeed take the time to acquaint yourself with the most detailed work ever written on the Tucson Artifacts and as Ely said become communicative, ask yourself a few questions.
1. This whole business ended up exactly the way it was intended. While the intellectual community was busy discrediting the artifacts, others were busy securing items that could locate Oz and other locations. It was important that the effort on Silverbell road come to and end so activities of the most important order could happen. The discovery of the artifacts was an accident. That accident had to be fixed before other things surfaced that would have proved the artifacts genuine. Look at the individuals who were in position to make this happen in the intellectual community. Who were they?
2. Why was the dig handled by private individuals for a number of years while the University vapor locked on the excavation. Why was the University effort such that nothing was really proven. Was it important that nothing be proved? And who was it important to?
3. Why did all of the University records simply disappear? Lost in a fire or did the records provide proof that the articles were genuine. Perhaps the university did find something that was never revealed. Something that would shake the academic community to its core.
4. Why did records disproving the existence of Calalus make their way into the public mainstream in recent years.
5. What is the commen meaning that can be found on the Trail Maps, the Latin Heart and the Tucson Artifacts. That meaning expressed so elequently is the location of a holy place, west of Rome, in the North West portion of the Superstitions, a location we call Oz. A location on the third planet from a star.
Klondike
If you indeed take the time to acquaint yourself with the most detailed work ever written on the Tucson Artifacts and as Ely said become communicative, ask yourself a few questions.
1. This whole business ended up exactly the way it was intended. While the intellectual community was busy discrediting the artifacts, others were busy securing items that could locate Oz and other locations. It was important that the effort on Silverbell road come to and end so activities of the most important order could happen. The discovery of the artifacts was an accident. That accident had to be fixed before other things surfaced that would have proved the artifacts genuine. Look at the individuals who were in position to make this happen in the intellectual community. Who were they?
2. Why was the dig handled by private individuals for a number of years while the University vapor locked on the excavation. Why was the University effort such that nothing was really proven. Was it important that nothing be proved? And who was it important to?
3. Why did all of the University records simply disappear? Lost in a fire or did the records provide proof that the articles were genuine. Perhaps the university did find something that was never revealed. Something that would shake the academic community to its core.
4. Why did records disproving the existence of Calalus make their way into the public mainstream in recent years.
5. What is the commen meaning that can be found on the Trail Maps, the Latin Heart and the Tucson Artifacts. That meaning expressed so elequently is the location of a holy place, west of Rome, in the North West portion of the Superstitions, a location we call Oz. A location on the third planet from a star.
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
I appreciate your reply, and the chance to discuss the Bent Manuscript and the Tucson Artifacts. While not convinced of the Calalus thingie, I am interested in the story.
There is a glyph that is found in Hieroglyphic Canyon, that matches a symbol found on the artifacts. It involves a trident. I believe that may very well be what brought you to me on this Forum, as Late49er in the first place.
I have always wondered why you chose to try and weave me and my own version of the Stone Maps into your story. I believe that Hieroglyphic may be the "why".
I will need some time to study the first half of the manuscript, as well as some other documents that I will receive by Wed.
I look forward to dissecting as much of the mystery as I can.....with your assistance.
Give me a week.
Take care,
Joe
I appreciate your reply, and the chance to discuss the Bent Manuscript and the Tucson Artifacts. While not convinced of the Calalus thingie, I am interested in the story.
There is a glyph that is found in Hieroglyphic Canyon, that matches a symbol found on the artifacts. It involves a trident. I believe that may very well be what brought you to me on this Forum, as Late49er in the first place.
I have always wondered why you chose to try and weave me and my own version of the Stone Maps into your story. I believe that Hieroglyphic may be the "why".
I will need some time to study the first half of the manuscript, as well as some other documents that I will receive by Wed.
I look forward to dissecting as much of the mystery as I can.....with your assistance.
Give me a week.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
I hope you enjoy Mr. Bent`s work. As he said it is not a work of art it is however the most detailed history of the artifacts out there. While Mr. Bent defends his position as to the genuiness of the artifacts he is not shy about presenting opposing views.
I believe it was on 01/24/25, that artifact 7 was discovered. The artifact has a trident and directly below it a view you might find familiar. On both sides of this artifact are elements of a trail system that brings into view the system identified on the trail maps.
This system was created by both the settlers of Calalus and a more ancient people.
I think Bernice would be very happy with your source. After all none of us should be a novice in this effort.
Take Care,
Klondike
I hope you enjoy Mr. Bent`s work. As he said it is not a work of art it is however the most detailed history of the artifacts out there. While Mr. Bent defends his position as to the genuiness of the artifacts he is not shy about presenting opposing views.
I believe it was on 01/24/25, that artifact 7 was discovered. The artifact has a trident and directly below it a view you might find familiar. On both sides of this artifact are elements of a trail system that brings into view the system identified on the trail maps.
This system was created by both the settlers of Calalus and a more ancient people.
I think Bernice would be very happy with your source. After all none of us should be a novice in this effort.
Take Care,
Klondike
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
The more I read of the McGee/Bent correspondence, the more I understand your trying to make a Calalus/OZ/Superstition Mountains connection. Not that there is any evidence to support those connections, but I can see why you have attempted to do so.
In the letters, Bent shows a casual interest in the Superstitions, prodded by the McGee's explorations. It seems you have certainly made a mountain (OZ/Calalus) out of a molehill here.....No pun intended.
Since everything has been removed from the Superstitions, why not put an end to the OZ charade by giving it's location to some trustworthy people, such as Paul and Wayne (Somehiker)? If that seems to be out of the question, a few pictures would help. I would suggest that you not post more pictures of the Techatticup mine in Eldorado Canyon. That did not work out very well the last time you did it.
I am ready to get into the Bent Manuscript which, of course, has nothing to do with OZ. If you remain unwilling to produce some kind of verifiable evidence of it's existence, I am through with that part of the discussion. I'm sure you can see how that is a dead end...........without some proof.
On the other hand, Calalus remains interesting.
Take care,
Joe
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
I thought it might be more appropriate to post your response on the discussion board where the dialogue was suggested rather than on the Calalus thread even if there is obviously a lot of cross over material.
Any discussion of the Bent work necessarily is grounded in a understanding of Oz. Calalus would never have existed without Oz. Just like in more recent times the LDM legend is nothing more or less than an effort to stear folks away from the vicinity of Oz or in some instances simply helping folks stay confused that are interested in the area. Remember the efforts, quite successful of Jim Bark.
Your suggestion of proof of the existance of Oz while tempting is simply not possible, unless it is on our terms and convience. Sometimes I believe the magnitude of what has gone on escapes you. We have given enough clues that anyone with a bit of grit and determination will find more than ample evidence regarding the existence of both Oz and the settlers of Calalus in the Superstitions. Calalus was a wide ranging city state with various towns scattered across Arizona, New Mexico, and Southern Nevada.
It is interesting how we have placed clues throughout these discussions and well it seems they have landed on as Late used to say you can lead them to water but you cannot make them drink. For example the main city of Calalus was located where now one finds Sedona, Arizona. We spoke of the importance of The Chapel of the Cross and nearby structures, the stars, yet it seems the hints are well it doesn`t really matter. Yes there are still remains of Rhoda in the Sedona area. Near Wickenburg, and Snaketown are locations we care for along with a temple in Eldorado Canyon, Nevada.
Furthermore has anyone ever noted the connection between the Tucson Artifacts and Oz? On the Tucson Artifacts there exists the Letters OL that repeat continually. Some have taken it to mean the author of the artifacts. In reality OL stands for the most holy site in Calalus that gave meaning to the people. In modern times we simply call it Oz. Oz because it still is holy to us and the fact that the Circlestone site bears a striking resemblance to the underground workings of Oz. From the sky Circlestone says many things to those who will understand.
I think it would be better to simply state several fundamental truths regarding mutual areas of interest rather than engage in a dialogue. Simply put I don`t find you well communicative.
1. The trail maps are the real deal. You solution is correct that is why we find your efforts interesting. Nothing more nothing less. Without the two remaining trail maps that exist in a garden in Wickenburg, Arizona nothing is really gained.
2. The horse/witch whatever is a modern creation created to deceive.
3. The Tucson Artifacts are also the real deal. these artifacts provide a roadmap to various trails in the Superstitions and trails of more ancient people that can clearly be seen on artifact 18. On this artifact is the word Calalus being highlighted by the snake while directly on the other side of the artifact are symbols also evident on the trail maps. What this is telling you is that Oz is the ground of Calalus.
4. Late49er, Eldorado, klondike and Dog are different folks. You have been told for a long, long time how all of this is done. Gatekeepers care for each other.
5. The destruction of Oz is a tragedy unparalled in history. Oz was the library that connected the ancient world to the modern world, that gate is now closed.
On a positive front may the stars keep you safe and I hope you are yours have a happy holiday season.
Nothing much else to say. At least you have gained a better understanding of Mr. Bent and maybe a deeper appreciation of you own history.
Take Care
Klondike
The more I read of the McGee/Bent correspondence, the more I understand your trying to make a Calalus/OZ/Superstition Mountains connection. Not that there is any evidence to support those connections, but I can see why you have attempted to do so.
In the letters, Bent shows a casual interest in the Superstitions, prodded by the McGee's explorations. It seems you have certainly made a mountain (OZ/Calalus) out of a molehill here.....No pun intended.
Since everything has been removed from the Superstitions, why not put an end to the OZ charade by giving it's location to some trustworthy people, such as Paul and Wayne (Somehiker)? If that seems to be out of the question, a few pictures would help. I would suggest that you not post more pictures of the Techatticup mine in Eldorado Canyon. That did not work out very well the last time you did it.
I am ready to get into the Bent Manuscript which, of course, has nothing to do with OZ. If you remain unwilling to produce some kind of verifiable evidence of it's existence, I am through with that part of the discussion. I'm sure you can see how that is a dead end...........without some proof.
On the other hand, Calalus remains interesting.
Take care,
Joe
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
I thought it might be more appropriate to post your response on the discussion board where the dialogue was suggested rather than on the Calalus thread even if there is obviously a lot of cross over material.
Any discussion of the Bent work necessarily is grounded in a understanding of Oz. Calalus would never have existed without Oz. Just like in more recent times the LDM legend is nothing more or less than an effort to stear folks away from the vicinity of Oz or in some instances simply helping folks stay confused that are interested in the area. Remember the efforts, quite successful of Jim Bark.
Your suggestion of proof of the existance of Oz while tempting is simply not possible, unless it is on our terms and convience. Sometimes I believe the magnitude of what has gone on escapes you. We have given enough clues that anyone with a bit of grit and determination will find more than ample evidence regarding the existence of both Oz and the settlers of Calalus in the Superstitions. Calalus was a wide ranging city state with various towns scattered across Arizona, New Mexico, and Southern Nevada.
It is interesting how we have placed clues throughout these discussions and well it seems they have landed on as Late used to say you can lead them to water but you cannot make them drink. For example the main city of Calalus was located where now one finds Sedona, Arizona. We spoke of the importance of The Chapel of the Cross and nearby structures, the stars, yet it seems the hints are well it doesn`t really matter. Yes there are still remains of Rhoda in the Sedona area. Near Wickenburg, and Snaketown are locations we care for along with a temple in Eldorado Canyon, Nevada.
Furthermore has anyone ever noted the connection between the Tucson Artifacts and Oz? On the Tucson Artifacts there exists the Letters OL that repeat continually. Some have taken it to mean the author of the artifacts. In reality OL stands for the most holy site in Calalus that gave meaning to the people. In modern times we simply call it Oz. Oz because it still is holy to us and the fact that the Circlestone site bears a striking resemblance to the underground workings of Oz. From the sky Circlestone says many things to those who will understand.
I think it would be better to simply state several fundamental truths regarding mutual areas of interest rather than engage in a dialogue. Simply put I don`t find you well communicative.
1. The trail maps are the real deal. You solution is correct that is why we find your efforts interesting. Nothing more nothing less. Without the two remaining trail maps that exist in a garden in Wickenburg, Arizona nothing is really gained.
2. The horse/witch whatever is a modern creation created to deceive.
3. The Tucson Artifacts are also the real deal. these artifacts provide a roadmap to various trails in the Superstitions and trails of more ancient people that can clearly be seen on artifact 18. On this artifact is the word Calalus being highlighted by the snake while directly on the other side of the artifact are symbols also evident on the trail maps. What this is telling you is that Oz is the ground of Calalus.
4. Late49er, Eldorado, klondike and Dog are different folks. You have been told for a long, long time how all of this is done. Gatekeepers care for each other.
5. The destruction of Oz is a tragedy unparalled in history. Oz was the library that connected the ancient world to the modern world, that gate is now closed.
On a positive front may the stars keep you safe and I hope you are yours have a happy holiday season.
Nothing much else to say. At least you have gained a better understanding of Mr. Bent and maybe a deeper appreciation of you own history.
Take Care
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
"I think it would be better to simply state several fundamental truths regarding mutual areas of interest rather than engage in a dialogue. Simply put I don`t find you well communicative."
That's a very interesting observation. Communication is usually a two-way street. I communicate, you pontificate. That pontification brooks no opposing opinions or allows room for any expressed doubts concerning your "facts".
Unless I find something farther down the road from Mr. Bent, I will have to conclude that you were led to the Superstitions by the McGee's. That would mean that you have read their correspondence with the Bent's and built OZ around their theories. One wonders why you have left out the Book Of Mormon and Joseph Smith.
I am almost through with the letters and will start on the manuscript soon. Right now, I am pretty well convinced that your story of OZ begins with Jack and Bernice.
I look forward to having that two-way conversation with you.
Take care,
Joe
"I think it would be better to simply state several fundamental truths regarding mutual areas of interest rather than engage in a dialogue. Simply put I don`t find you well communicative."
That's a very interesting observation. Communication is usually a two-way street. I communicate, you pontificate. That pontification brooks no opposing opinions or allows room for any expressed doubts concerning your "facts".
Unless I find something farther down the road from Mr. Bent, I will have to conclude that you were led to the Superstitions by the McGee's. That would mean that you have read their correspondence with the Bent's and built OZ around their theories. One wonders why you have left out the Book Of Mormon and Joseph Smith.
I am almost through with the letters and will start on the manuscript soon. Right now, I am pretty well convinced that your story of OZ begins with Jack and Bernice.
I look forward to having that two-way conversation with you.
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
Klondike will be out of pocket for a while and he asked me to convey to you the importance of artifact 18 that was missing in his last post.
Artifact 18 is both a history book and a map. As klondike mentioned on the left side of the artifact is the word Calalus, on the opposite side are symbols that more or less also appear on the trail maps. At the bottom of the artifact is a symbol and a section of trail that points to the location of a site that was important to a more ancient people.
Artifact 18 speaks to that which the people believed was holy and paid homage to those ancient people who came before them. The total story of the artifact is that Oz is the ground of Calalus and that the ground of all are the children of Poseidon.
In the center of the Artifact is a map that represents the world as these folks knew existed at the time of Calalus with its various power centers, Rome, etc.
I would say the Library of Oz pre-dated the settlers of Calalus by at least 8000 years.
We will be all out of pocket for a while but it should take you at least several weeks to digest the Bent work. If at that time you are communicative and can understand that language can been an attempt to find the truth and not simply a play of sophistry we will talk again, if not nothing has really been lost. The letters you are referencing while interesting are not the ground simply an attempt to understand the ground.
You know I never really have understood computers. I was trying to post a communication from Mr. Bent that you might find interesting but when I tried to post it the site keeps saying the document is not acceptable or something. Perhaps I can simply send it to Paul and he can figure all of this out. He seems to understand these things.
Take Care,
Ben
Klondike will be out of pocket for a while and he asked me to convey to you the importance of artifact 18 that was missing in his last post.
Artifact 18 is both a history book and a map. As klondike mentioned on the left side of the artifact is the word Calalus, on the opposite side are symbols that more or less also appear on the trail maps. At the bottom of the artifact is a symbol and a section of trail that points to the location of a site that was important to a more ancient people.
Artifact 18 speaks to that which the people believed was holy and paid homage to those ancient people who came before them. The total story of the artifact is that Oz is the ground of Calalus and that the ground of all are the children of Poseidon.
In the center of the Artifact is a map that represents the world as these folks knew existed at the time of Calalus with its various power centers, Rome, etc.
I would say the Library of Oz pre-dated the settlers of Calalus by at least 8000 years.
We will be all out of pocket for a while but it should take you at least several weeks to digest the Bent work. If at that time you are communicative and can understand that language can been an attempt to find the truth and not simply a play of sophistry we will talk again, if not nothing has really been lost. The letters you are referencing while interesting are not the ground simply an attempt to understand the ground.
You know I never really have understood computers. I was trying to post a communication from Mr. Bent that you might find interesting but when I tried to post it the site keeps saying the document is not acceptable or something. Perhaps I can simply send it to Paul and he can figure all of this out. He seems to understand these things.
Take Care,
Ben
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Ben,
I am well along with Bent's Manuscript......Into the end chapter now. So far I remain unconvinced as to the authenticity of the artifacts, and least as far as the conclusions about Calalus go. Considering the importance you placed on the manuscript, I fully expected to find something of great importance.
The one conclusion I have reached, is that the answer lies in the caliche that the artifacts were found in. Does any of the information that includes the placement of the artifacts in the deposit trouble you at all?
What I find most troubling, is the varying depths of the various artifacts.
I will take another look at 18 when I get home this evening.
As for the "library" that was at OZ.......I find it a bit of a stretch to imagine there was writing 8-9000 years ago, unless it was Chinese. Even more of a stretch to believe the writing was advanced enough to create a library of any worth to the people of today.
If William Bent were alive today, I believe he would be condemning you for removing one artifact or "book" from the public view and shipping it off to Africa. A "private museum" holding such a treasure, from what I have read, would be something that would make Mr. Bent very angry.
Some pictures of this "library" in the cave, would go a long way towards our conversation into another direction all together. Such a picture would not reveal any "secrets", only show that what you have been claiming for all these years has some substance.
There are so many clues that point to the Mormons that the possibility can't be ignored that the artifacts were part of an abandoned attempt to create "proof" for the Book Of Mormon history. In the early days, many such attempts were made, embarrassing the church on a regular basis. So much so, that the official position of the church on any artifacts or geography based history is......No comment.
The connection between Joseph Smith and the Masonic Lodge is well documented. Many of the rituals are identical between the two organizations. It seems obvious that Smith borrowed such things from the Masons.
As an expert on archaeology, Bent leaves a lot to be desired. His tirades against the professionals grows tiresome as you proceed through the manuscript. From your past comments I'm sure you see it from a different perspective.
I had high hopes that an epiphany of some kind would be the end result of reading the manuscript. I am not through the conclusion yet, so there is still time. That being said, it will not come from the accounts of the finding of the artifacts.
Once again, I believe the disparity between the depths of the artifacts in the caliche will prove of some importance in determining if they were covered by man, is some way, or Mother Nature.
Thank you for your reply.
Take care,
Joe
I am well along with Bent's Manuscript......Into the end chapter now. So far I remain unconvinced as to the authenticity of the artifacts, and least as far as the conclusions about Calalus go. Considering the importance you placed on the manuscript, I fully expected to find something of great importance.
The one conclusion I have reached, is that the answer lies in the caliche that the artifacts were found in. Does any of the information that includes the placement of the artifacts in the deposit trouble you at all?
What I find most troubling, is the varying depths of the various artifacts.
I will take another look at 18 when I get home this evening.
As for the "library" that was at OZ.......I find it a bit of a stretch to imagine there was writing 8-9000 years ago, unless it was Chinese. Even more of a stretch to believe the writing was advanced enough to create a library of any worth to the people of today.
If William Bent were alive today, I believe he would be condemning you for removing one artifact or "book" from the public view and shipping it off to Africa. A "private museum" holding such a treasure, from what I have read, would be something that would make Mr. Bent very angry.
Some pictures of this "library" in the cave, would go a long way towards our conversation into another direction all together. Such a picture would not reveal any "secrets", only show that what you have been claiming for all these years has some substance.
There are so many clues that point to the Mormons that the possibility can't be ignored that the artifacts were part of an abandoned attempt to create "proof" for the Book Of Mormon history. In the early days, many such attempts were made, embarrassing the church on a regular basis. So much so, that the official position of the church on any artifacts or geography based history is......No comment.
The connection between Joseph Smith and the Masonic Lodge is well documented. Many of the rituals are identical between the two organizations. It seems obvious that Smith borrowed such things from the Masons.
As an expert on archaeology, Bent leaves a lot to be desired. His tirades against the professionals grows tiresome as you proceed through the manuscript. From your past comments I'm sure you see it from a different perspective.
I had high hopes that an epiphany of some kind would be the end result of reading the manuscript. I am not through the conclusion yet, so there is still time. That being said, it will not come from the accounts of the finding of the artifacts.
Once again, I believe the disparity between the depths of the artifacts in the caliche will prove of some importance in determining if they were covered by man, is some way, or Mother Nature.
Thank you for your reply.
Take care,
Joe
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
WOW!! I should have gone back and reread that before posting. 
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
I got home and continued to read "The Summary" of Bent's manuscript. On page 324, I came across this statement: "From the very beginning, caliche has been acknowledged as the key to the solution of the mystery." Wow, I must be clairvoyant.
I actually researched caliche and how it is formed many years ago. While the discussion seemed to be the age of the caliche and if it was possible to reconstitute it to "seal" the artifacts in the existing formation, that was not the main thrust of my doubts.
The artifacts were said to be created somewhere else, carried to the Silver Bell location and left there, possibly after a big battle. If that is so, how did artifact #24 at(78")deep, end up 36" below artifact #15 at 42" below the surface,both encased in the same deposit?
Relatively speaking, all of the artifacts are in fairly close proximity to each other. How can the different depths be accounted for? From a simple man, you get simple questions. No doubt there is a simple answer I am overlooking.
Hope you can clear this up for me.
Take care,
Joe
I got home and continued to read "The Summary" of Bent's manuscript. On page 324, I came across this statement: "From the very beginning, caliche has been acknowledged as the key to the solution of the mystery." Wow, I must be clairvoyant.
I actually researched caliche and how it is formed many years ago. While the discussion seemed to be the age of the caliche and if it was possible to reconstitute it to "seal" the artifacts in the existing formation, that was not the main thrust of my doubts.
The artifacts were said to be created somewhere else, carried to the Silver Bell location and left there, possibly after a big battle. If that is so, how did artifact #24 at(78")deep, end up 36" below artifact #15 at 42" below the surface,both encased in the same deposit?
Relatively speaking, all of the artifacts are in fairly close proximity to each other. How can the different depths be accounted for? From a simple man, you get simple questions. No doubt there is a simple answer I am overlooking.
Hope you can clear this up for me.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
This is when I first started researching caliche:
Joe Ribaudo Post subject: CalichePosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:44 am
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Posts: 4981 Wiz,
Blood in not an ingrediant of caliche. Layers of caliche are a product of nature and is found in most semi-arid regions. The Apache, as well as other Indians, did use this natural product mixed with other types of soil (including clay) to seal cracks and make different objects waterproof.
Magill's layer of caliche was most likely natural. It would have been created by runoff and normal leaching of surrounding soil.
You will find caliche everywhere in the Southwest.
Respectfully,
Joe
________________________________________
I have a couple of articles and books on the subject. One of them is "Caliche In Arizona" by J.F. Breazeale and H.V. Smith, which is mentioned in the manuscript.
Joe
Joe Ribaudo Post subject: CalichePosted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:44 am
Expert
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Posts: 4981 Wiz,
Blood in not an ingrediant of caliche. Layers of caliche are a product of nature and is found in most semi-arid regions. The Apache, as well as other Indians, did use this natural product mixed with other types of soil (including clay) to seal cracks and make different objects waterproof.
Magill's layer of caliche was most likely natural. It would have been created by runoff and normal leaching of surrounding soil.
You will find caliche everywhere in the Southwest.
Respectfully,
Joe
________________________________________
I have a couple of articles and books on the subject. One of them is "Caliche In Arizona" by J.F. Breazeale and H.V. Smith, which is mentioned in the manuscript.
Joe
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pippinwhitepaws
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Re: Yellow Jackets
blood is an ingredient in adobe floors...
caliche is salt deposits that leech to the surface of the earth..or closely below...naturally...
caliche is salt deposits that leech to the surface of the earth..or closely below...naturally...
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Pip,
The problem, for me, with the Calalus artifacts is that most were solidly ensconced in caliche. They were only removed with great difficulty and picks or other types of pointed digging tools.
Beyond that, the caliche was both above and below the artifacts, which were found at different depths, as much as three feet in one case. While not impossible, that seems a little hard to accept at face value.
What seems more likely, is that the trench that was created for a pathway to the kilns, was cut down through the caliche, creating caliche walls. The walls were then hollowed out to allow placement of the artifacts, and then resealed with reconstituted caliche, which is not difficult to do. In ten to twenty years, the caliche patch would be hard as the original.
Thanks for your input.
Joe
The problem, for me, with the Calalus artifacts is that most were solidly ensconced in caliche. They were only removed with great difficulty and picks or other types of pointed digging tools.
Beyond that, the caliche was both above and below the artifacts, which were found at different depths, as much as three feet in one case. While not impossible, that seems a little hard to accept at face value.
What seems more likely, is that the trench that was created for a pathway to the kilns, was cut down through the caliche, creating caliche walls. The walls were then hollowed out to allow placement of the artifacts, and then resealed with reconstituted caliche, which is not difficult to do. In ten to twenty years, the caliche patch would be hard as the original.
Thanks for your input.
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
You know I never really have understood computers. I was trying to post a communication from Mr. Bent that you might find interesting but when I tried to post it the site keeps saying the document is not acceptable or something. Perhaps I can simply send it to Paul and he can figure all of this out. He seems to understand these things.
Ben - I didn't catch your comment until today and have been pretty busy lately with trying to get back into the swing of things at work after my trip to AZ.
If you want me to post something here, let me know - you know how to get ahold of me and can e-mail it to me if you would like.
Paul
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Whitepaws
I just got back recently and saw your post. I am not sure how folks can do this sort of thing, but I guess an education does not necessarily improve the ethical qualities in an individual.
Klondike
"First, you ask us to believe the conclusions and work of Bent, over the opinion of someone like professor Haury, who Bent liked to call "Prof. of Prevarication". He also described his work at Snaketown in this way, "...Haury piddled around at Snaketown..."."
well..everyone has their closet full of skeletons.
i lost my job in jerome..when i approached the hopi tribe to come fetch the skull on display in the mine museum...seems this poor fellow was found by haury in the ancient salt mine in camp verde...the mine collapsed...the sinagua person was preserved intact...so haury flays the guy..sending parts all over the place..no record of the even other than a one line mention in a odd letter found in the jerome archives...
so while i have no idea of this conversation...or believe i need to invest the time to come up to speed...haury was no saint...even if he did establish southwest archeology an the anthropology department at U.of A.
take care.
I just got back recently and saw your post. I am not sure how folks can do this sort of thing, but I guess an education does not necessarily improve the ethical qualities in an individual.
Klondike
"First, you ask us to believe the conclusions and work of Bent, over the opinion of someone like professor Haury, who Bent liked to call "Prof. of Prevarication". He also described his work at Snaketown in this way, "...Haury piddled around at Snaketown..."."
well..everyone has their closet full of skeletons.
i lost my job in jerome..when i approached the hopi tribe to come fetch the skull on display in the mine museum...seems this poor fellow was found by haury in the ancient salt mine in camp verde...the mine collapsed...the sinagua person was preserved intact...so haury flays the guy..sending parts all over the place..no record of the even other than a one line mention in a odd letter found in the jerome archives...
so while i have no idea of this conversation...or believe i need to invest the time to come up to speed...haury was no saint...even if he did establish southwest archeology an the anthropology department at U.of A.
take care.
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo
I believe your points are:
1. How does one account for the artifacts being found at various depths? Your examples being Artifact 15 at a depth of 42" and Artifact 24 at a depth of 78".
2. It seems you account for the deposition of the artifacts by suggesting that a trench was created and that the walls were hollowed out to allow placement of the artifacts, and the artifacts were then resealed with re-constituted caliche. I believe you indicated that in 10 to 20 years the caliche patch would be hard as the original.
Basically then you believe the artifacts were planted. Interestingly enough your theory places the planting at an earlier time than the discovery of the artifacts. I know one recent researcher believes the artifacts were planted, but were planted by folks who were part of the discovery.
If the artifacts were planted as you seem to suggest the question becomes what was the motive for this planting? And was there a reason to plant them at different depths? The folks who advocate planting, whether during the 20`s or before have a few problems to deal with. I believe Covey makes the counter-point well in his article in Migration and Diffusion, Vol 5, Issue number 19, 2004 page 108. Covey states:
"We are supposed to believe hypothetical hoaxers first encrusted the lead artifacts with artificial caliche and then somehow inserted them an average 5`--lowest 61/2 feet--and caused them to lie flat, without fracturing the formation. Since 16th century breaking into caliche formations in Central America, Mexico, and the U.S. Southwest, none has ever self re-cemented, any more than cracks in a driveway".
Also Bent`s comments are instructive. Bent makes the point on pages 318 and 319 that tests were made during the discovery phase that attempted to duplicate exactly what you are suggesting. Their efforts failed because while hardening occurred stratification could not be duplicated. Basically the newly formed Caliche had a totally different look than the Caliche that had been formed by natural causes.
From a why perspective the argument for planting is stronger if it is made against the discovers. At least one could say a fraud was perpeturated for either financial gain or to simply embarrass the folks at the University. Not that there was much to embarrass there to begin with. Of course the closer one gets to the discovery date the more difficult it becomes to deal with the issue of stratification and the hardening of the Caliche.
So the question becomes if the artifacts were not planted how did the artifacts end up on Silverbell Road. I believe the answer is quite simple. In fact it is so simple that most folks can`t see it. That is the artifacts are exactly what they present themselves to be. They are the dying remains of a people. The product of a pitiful few that say one simple thing. We were here. Covey had an interesting observation when he stated on page 28 of the referenced article:
“We may wonder why the find threatened the sanity of so many intelligent people, who could not bear the incongruous reality of a medieval Jewish colony on the flood plain of an Arizona river.” As I have stated before Covey is wrong about the location of Rhoda, but so what his sentiments are right on.
What proof is there that these are the dying remains, a message in a bottle tossed into the sea of time? First off the artifacts themselves. On artifact 1 is a simple statement, “The last day and time inevitable has come. I am the Lord am with you.”
Indeed the last days had come. Rhoda was in flames; settlements in Snaketown, Wickenburg, and Eldorado Canyon were being reduced to nothingness. Battles raged from one end of the Superstitions to the other. And without the sacrifices of a few brave men Oz would have also have been lost. But Oz survived and the Artifacts are a testament to that survival and not the least of which a map to her treasures.
So if the artifacts are genuine how did they get to Silverbell Road? To answer that question we have to delve into the oral history of the people. A legend exists in the families that escaped to what is now Georgia and New York, that their ancestors, who survived the destruction of Calalus, camped in a marshy area in from we can tell was either Arizona or New Mexico. These survivors carried with them artifacts and hoped to take the history of the people with them to build a new life and to also have a waybill to come home one day if that was possible. It is told that in this marshy area the artifacts were dumped because the refugees could not care for the artifacts and their weakest. The artifacts were let go to save the future instead of preserving the past. Understand at that time the survivors were so few.
I believe that legend is true. The artifacts were dumped in a marshy terrain. They settled in that marsh and simply disappeared until recent times.
I once told you that when I first saw the artifacts I cried. I cried because I knew the artifacts were a testament not only to the past, but a testament to the future. They tell us the people were here and they tell us the people will not go quietly into the night. They did not. I have often wondered who survived the trek east because those artifacts were dumped.
And remember one other thing. The Geology of Silverbell Road is little understood. Perhaps our people understood it a bit better since they were there.
Take Care,
Klondike
I believe your points are:
1. How does one account for the artifacts being found at various depths? Your examples being Artifact 15 at a depth of 42" and Artifact 24 at a depth of 78".
2. It seems you account for the deposition of the artifacts by suggesting that a trench was created and that the walls were hollowed out to allow placement of the artifacts, and the artifacts were then resealed with re-constituted caliche. I believe you indicated that in 10 to 20 years the caliche patch would be hard as the original.
Basically then you believe the artifacts were planted. Interestingly enough your theory places the planting at an earlier time than the discovery of the artifacts. I know one recent researcher believes the artifacts were planted, but were planted by folks who were part of the discovery.
If the artifacts were planted as you seem to suggest the question becomes what was the motive for this planting? And was there a reason to plant them at different depths? The folks who advocate planting, whether during the 20`s or before have a few problems to deal with. I believe Covey makes the counter-point well in his article in Migration and Diffusion, Vol 5, Issue number 19, 2004 page 108. Covey states:
"We are supposed to believe hypothetical hoaxers first encrusted the lead artifacts with artificial caliche and then somehow inserted them an average 5`--lowest 61/2 feet--and caused them to lie flat, without fracturing the formation. Since 16th century breaking into caliche formations in Central America, Mexico, and the U.S. Southwest, none has ever self re-cemented, any more than cracks in a driveway".
Also Bent`s comments are instructive. Bent makes the point on pages 318 and 319 that tests were made during the discovery phase that attempted to duplicate exactly what you are suggesting. Their efforts failed because while hardening occurred stratification could not be duplicated. Basically the newly formed Caliche had a totally different look than the Caliche that had been formed by natural causes.
From a why perspective the argument for planting is stronger if it is made against the discovers. At least one could say a fraud was perpeturated for either financial gain or to simply embarrass the folks at the University. Not that there was much to embarrass there to begin with. Of course the closer one gets to the discovery date the more difficult it becomes to deal with the issue of stratification and the hardening of the Caliche.
So the question becomes if the artifacts were not planted how did the artifacts end up on Silverbell Road. I believe the answer is quite simple. In fact it is so simple that most folks can`t see it. That is the artifacts are exactly what they present themselves to be. They are the dying remains of a people. The product of a pitiful few that say one simple thing. We were here. Covey had an interesting observation when he stated on page 28 of the referenced article:
“We may wonder why the find threatened the sanity of so many intelligent people, who could not bear the incongruous reality of a medieval Jewish colony on the flood plain of an Arizona river.” As I have stated before Covey is wrong about the location of Rhoda, but so what his sentiments are right on.
What proof is there that these are the dying remains, a message in a bottle tossed into the sea of time? First off the artifacts themselves. On artifact 1 is a simple statement, “The last day and time inevitable has come. I am the Lord am with you.”
Indeed the last days had come. Rhoda was in flames; settlements in Snaketown, Wickenburg, and Eldorado Canyon were being reduced to nothingness. Battles raged from one end of the Superstitions to the other. And without the sacrifices of a few brave men Oz would have also have been lost. But Oz survived and the Artifacts are a testament to that survival and not the least of which a map to her treasures.
So if the artifacts are genuine how did they get to Silverbell Road? To answer that question we have to delve into the oral history of the people. A legend exists in the families that escaped to what is now Georgia and New York, that their ancestors, who survived the destruction of Calalus, camped in a marshy area in from we can tell was either Arizona or New Mexico. These survivors carried with them artifacts and hoped to take the history of the people with them to build a new life and to also have a waybill to come home one day if that was possible. It is told that in this marshy area the artifacts were dumped because the refugees could not care for the artifacts and their weakest. The artifacts were let go to save the future instead of preserving the past. Understand at that time the survivors were so few.
I believe that legend is true. The artifacts were dumped in a marshy terrain. They settled in that marsh and simply disappeared until recent times.
I once told you that when I first saw the artifacts I cried. I cried because I knew the artifacts were a testament not only to the past, but a testament to the future. They tell us the people were here and they tell us the people will not go quietly into the night. They did not. I have often wondered who survived the trek east because those artifacts were dumped.
And remember one other thing. The Geology of Silverbell Road is little understood. Perhaps our people understood it a bit better since they were there.
Take Care,
Klondike
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Paul,
Thanks for your kind offer. Perhaps it was a bit of fate that I could not figure the computer out. After reflection I would have to agree with Klondike and Dog. Simply put you believe in Oz and we have always said you have to believe in Oz to see it. We will simply send things to you and rely on you to keep them to yourself for a while. Enjoy.
Ben
Thanks for your kind offer. Perhaps it was a bit of fate that I could not figure the computer out. After reflection I would have to agree with Klondike and Dog. Simply put you believe in Oz and we have always said you have to believe in Oz to see it. We will simply send things to you and rely on you to keep them to yourself for a while. Enjoy.
Ben
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
I'm not at home right now, so I can't really address all of your points.
I believe "Migration and Diffusion", meaning movement of the artifacts in the caliche, only happens when the caliche has a high crystalline content, which the Silverbell caliche does not have.
The trench was cut long before Mr. Bent ever arrived. I know that Professor Cummings thought, early on, that the artifacts were legitimate, but changed his mind as the work progressed and more evidence was unearthed.
The reason for that are multitude. I will try to address most of them later. One problem, as I recall, was the use of "Gaul" on the artifacts, as well as the drawing of a dinosaur, before they were even known to have existed.
"Battles raged from one end of the Superstitions to the other."
There is no evidence of these "historic" events, as well as any "archaeological" (physical) evidence for the existence of the people of Calalus, other than the Tucson artifacts, which are questionable. As with most evidence of these kinds of stories, the evidence for OZ has been removed from any peer review by the amateur archaeologists who first found it.
"The Geology of Silverbell Road is little understood."
What was known about caliche when Bent made his discoveries was minimal. Things have changed. It is possible to place artifacts into the side of a carved trench which cuts through caliche and reseal it. What was the scientific process used to determine the stratification around the artifacts and what actually encased them. Where are those notes? Perhaps they were in the manuscript, but I don't recall seeing them.
At what age were the differing artifacts encased in the caliche? How did they determine that information? Why were no human remains found in the area? Why were the lead artifacts the only sign of the presence of people from Calalus?
Why did they make weapons from lead, when other material was available? Even if only ceremonial, why lead?
I am still researching, but many questions are rising to the surface.
Take care,
Joe
I'm not at home right now, so I can't really address all of your points.
I believe "Migration and Diffusion", meaning movement of the artifacts in the caliche, only happens when the caliche has a high crystalline content, which the Silverbell caliche does not have.
The trench was cut long before Mr. Bent ever arrived. I know that Professor Cummings thought, early on, that the artifacts were legitimate, but changed his mind as the work progressed and more evidence was unearthed.
The reason for that are multitude. I will try to address most of them later. One problem, as I recall, was the use of "Gaul" on the artifacts, as well as the drawing of a dinosaur, before they were even known to have existed.
"Battles raged from one end of the Superstitions to the other."
There is no evidence of these "historic" events, as well as any "archaeological" (physical) evidence for the existence of the people of Calalus, other than the Tucson artifacts, which are questionable. As with most evidence of these kinds of stories, the evidence for OZ has been removed from any peer review by the amateur archaeologists who first found it.
"The Geology of Silverbell Road is little understood."
What was known about caliche when Bent made his discoveries was minimal. Things have changed. It is possible to place artifacts into the side of a carved trench which cuts through caliche and reseal it. What was the scientific process used to determine the stratification around the artifacts and what actually encased them. Where are those notes? Perhaps they were in the manuscript, but I don't recall seeing them.
At what age were the differing artifacts encased in the caliche? How did they determine that information? Why were no human remains found in the area? Why were the lead artifacts the only sign of the presence of people from Calalus?
Why did they make weapons from lead, when other material was available? Even if only ceremonial, why lead?
I am still researching, but many questions are rising to the surface.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
I have to admit, now that I have read Bent's manuscript and the letters that passed between him and the McGees, the less arguments I see for the authenticity of the Tucson artifacts, Calalus and OZ. There is just too much negative evidence against the entire story.
The argument you have used that "The Geology of Silverbell Road is little understood." may have worked for the late 1920s, but hardly applies today. Even then, the known geology argued against the artifacts being genuine. One of the biggest problems is the fact that the artifacts were found in a deposit that dates back to the Pleistocene era.
That would make the artifacts "at least" 10,000 years old.
James Breazeale, who coauthored "Caliche In Arizona", which I have read a number of times, visited the Silverbell site in 1926. His conclusion was....."If these leaden artifacts were found imbedded in the undisturbed caliche in the hard, tightly-cemented limestone deposit, and if no hoax has been perpetrated they are certainly of exceedingly great age--not one thousand, but nearer one hundred thousand years old."
In addition to Breazeale, we have James Quinlan, a retired Tucson geologist offering this opinion after visiting the site:
"The rocks at the site are gravel, sand and silt, a part of the alluvial fan materials deposited on the east pediment slope of the Tucson Mountains. Recent mapping by Peter W. Lipman, Geologic Map of the Tucson Mountain Caldera, Southern Arizona, USGS Map I-2205. 1993, shows these rocks to be a part of this older alluvial fan unit (Qof). This unit is considered to be Pleistocene or older in age, i.e., older than 10,000 years BP." (Quinlan 1994: 1)
The above information is from "Journal Of The Southwest, Volume 51, Number 1, Spring 2009
It takes a bit more than just believing in Calalus and Oz to make it so, it takes arguments which refute the mountain of evidence that stands against them ever existing. Do you have such arguments? If so, I am willing to give them a chance.
Looking forward to your reply to my last two posts.
Take care,
Joe
I have to admit, now that I have read Bent's manuscript and the letters that passed between him and the McGees, the less arguments I see for the authenticity of the Tucson artifacts, Calalus and OZ. There is just too much negative evidence against the entire story.
The argument you have used that "The Geology of Silverbell Road is little understood." may have worked for the late 1920s, but hardly applies today. Even then, the known geology argued against the artifacts being genuine. One of the biggest problems is the fact that the artifacts were found in a deposit that dates back to the Pleistocene era.
That would make the artifacts "at least" 10,000 years old.
James Breazeale, who coauthored "Caliche In Arizona", which I have read a number of times, visited the Silverbell site in 1926. His conclusion was....."If these leaden artifacts were found imbedded in the undisturbed caliche in the hard, tightly-cemented limestone deposit, and if no hoax has been perpetrated they are certainly of exceedingly great age--not one thousand, but nearer one hundred thousand years old."
In addition to Breazeale, we have James Quinlan, a retired Tucson geologist offering this opinion after visiting the site:
"The rocks at the site are gravel, sand and silt, a part of the alluvial fan materials deposited on the east pediment slope of the Tucson Mountains. Recent mapping by Peter W. Lipman, Geologic Map of the Tucson Mountain Caldera, Southern Arizona, USGS Map I-2205. 1993, shows these rocks to be a part of this older alluvial fan unit (Qof). This unit is considered to be Pleistocene or older in age, i.e., older than 10,000 years BP." (Quinlan 1994: 1)
The above information is from "Journal Of The Southwest, Volume 51, Number 1, Spring 2009
It takes a bit more than just believing in Calalus and Oz to make it so, it takes arguments which refute the mountain of evidence that stands against them ever existing. Do you have such arguments? If so, I am willing to give them a chance.
Looking forward to your reply to my last two posts.
Take care,
Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
One other thing.......It seems likely that this whole thing was about money.....from the start. In the written agreement between Manier and Bent, the bulk of that agreement dealt with division of income which might be derived from the artifacts.
The University of Arizona entered into an agreement with Bent and Manier in Dec. Of 1927 in which the University agreed to pay $16,000 to the partnership, for the artifacts....."contingent on the artifacts being authenticated as pre-Columbian, with Cummings as the judge. When that agreement was made, Cummings believed the artifacts to be authentic.
To add a little perspective, "In 2004 dollars, $16,000 would be equivalent to more than $150,000."
When I started looking into this story, I believed the two men to be innocent of planting any of the artifacts, but have since become much less sure of that.
Once the University came to the conclusion that the artifacts were not pre-Columbian, with the result of a cancelation of the above agreement, the two men, and especially William Bent became very abusive with every professional who doubted the artifacts authenticity. The name calling and private denigration of people like Haury and Cummings, as well as others, became their only defense.
Many of the comments/charges of Bent and Covey are refuted by letters that passed between all of the people involved in the site. Those letters are available.
There was suspicion and mention of a possible "treasure trove" which if found would belong to Bent and Manier.
Take care,
Joe
One other thing.......It seems likely that this whole thing was about money.....from the start. In the written agreement between Manier and Bent, the bulk of that agreement dealt with division of income which might be derived from the artifacts.
The University of Arizona entered into an agreement with Bent and Manier in Dec. Of 1927 in which the University agreed to pay $16,000 to the partnership, for the artifacts....."contingent on the artifacts being authenticated as pre-Columbian, with Cummings as the judge. When that agreement was made, Cummings believed the artifacts to be authentic.
To add a little perspective, "In 2004 dollars, $16,000 would be equivalent to more than $150,000."
When I started looking into this story, I believed the two men to be innocent of planting any of the artifacts, but have since become much less sure of that.
Once the University came to the conclusion that the artifacts were not pre-Columbian, with the result of a cancelation of the above agreement, the two men, and especially William Bent became very abusive with every professional who doubted the artifacts authenticity. The name calling and private denigration of people like Haury and Cummings, as well as others, became their only defense.
Many of the comments/charges of Bent and Covey are refuted by letters that passed between all of the people involved in the site. Those letters are available.
There was suspicion and mention of a possible "treasure trove" which if found would belong to Bent and Manier.
Take care,
Joe
-
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
Assuming the battles you speak of at Silverbell and in the Superstitions actually took place, there would be thousands of artifacts found in both places. This is a fact of archaeology which has held true for many, many years.
If you are thinking of the Massacre Grounds at the west end of the range, that story is, most likely, fiction.
Where are these artifacts and bones?
Take care,
Joe
Assuming the battles you speak of at Silverbell and in the Superstitions actually took place, there would be thousands of artifacts found in both places. This is a fact of archaeology which has held true for many, many years.
If you are thinking of the Massacre Grounds at the west end of the range, that story is, most likely, fiction.
Where are these artifacts and bones?
Take care,
Joe
Re: Yellow Jackets
Hello Mr. Ribaudo,
Can't believe I just responded to your posts and lost the whole thing.
I will crank it up again tomorrow.
Ben
Can't believe I just responded to your posts and lost the whole thing.
I will crank it up again tomorrow.
Ben
-
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets
Ben,
Happens to the best of us.
I can wait.
Joe
Happens to the best of us.
I can wait.
Joe