Yellow Jackets

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Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

The place of worship that is indicated on the Latin Heart is one of the temples that is referenced on the Tucson Artifacts. Remember directly under the temple is 3 symbols. One representing the library, one representing the sign of the ancients, and one representing temple. A literal translation of those three symbols would be: A place of worship that contains the library of the ancients and the library of the people.
I see, so that is your interpretation of those symbols then correct? Thank you, had suspected that was what Starman was referring to on that other forum. He did not post any photos of this temple referred to either. :(

Klondike also wrote

To you other point, as has been pointed out to me, does not take into consideration the impact of such a release of such information if it is not managed properly. And that is true.
As was also pointed out to you by our mutual amigo Joe, who or whom appointed you or your associates to be "gatekeepers" of historical knowledge? Did the government appoint you to withhold such information? If so, you have not done a good job of keeping the whole thing secret. Looks like more evasion rather than your being honest and forthright.

Klondike also wrote

If this is important to you then do your homework if not find another adventure.
Nope, not important to me at all. In fact as this has shaken out, or failed to shake out, the whole Calalus story and the add-on "Oz" tale really are not of any use in proving pre-Columbian contact with the Old World at all. Joe and I have been trying to allow you every opportunity to present and prove up your story, it is not up to us to do that for you. It is after all, YOUR homework and YOUR story, not mine and not Joe's.

Klondike also wrote

There are too many harsh words been said here that are childish and if a dialogue is reduced to the lowest common denominator of the human intellect I had just as soon pass.
Have I called you names? Some of your posts have certainly given the impression of being the work of a pathological liar, possibly a sociopath. Especially the constant attempting to manipulate others. You can easily disprove my suspicions with some photos and real names of other members of your group, that could then be checked. Otherwise it does look like several different "personalities" are all living in the same body, ala Sybil. As you refuse to provide anything like names or photos to support your stories, what else should I conclude? Prove my suspicions groundless, and I will be more than happy to post both an apology and a retraction. As to the last part, more in a moment.

Klondike also wrote

I will leave this with you. If you think those folks on TV ended up on Black Cross Butte and Fish Creek Canyon because they successfully triangulated the location of dead folks, next you will be believing Travis created the Latin Heart.

Klondike
Ah-hem. You are fleeing the discussion again because of how uncomfortable it is? And you speak of childish behavior? 8O :roll: I would point out that I have not said a single thing about the television series, which is after all entertainment not an historical documentary, nor referred to the Latin Heart or Travis Tumlinson.

If you are able to be open and honest, lay your cards on the table and we will talk. Instead of demanding that someone convince themselves that your stories have merit, which is not how it works for any claims as you have posted, provide some proof. Did you do your own homework? If so why did you not ever mention the strange finding of crosses in a cemetery in west Des Moines Iowa, made of shell, or the even stranger story of buried crosses found in California? Wouldn't these be helpful in proving that your Calalus colony had passed that way, or was having some impression on native peoples? Not a single word on these oddities have you mentioned. Hence I must conclude that you are unaware of them. I do not see these as linked to Calalus at all, unfortunately, more likely they are related to wandering Irish monks of the sixth century or another even more obscure source. (The odd diamond shaped tops of the Iowa crosses are particularly curious)

Still waiting for photos and answers Klondike - and as much as I detest deadlines, I do not have endless time to wait for you. I hope you are composing your story into a book, and I do not say that lightly either. Rather than continue to play games, let me put it this way. I will check this forum again on 7-25; if you can not post some answers and photos by that time, I will let you alone. I really do have other things that demand my time and attention.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

Two of the earliest spoken languages were Eblaite and Akkadian, but both were written in cuneiform.

Still not old enough for the OZ library.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

Since boundaries of this dialogue have already been establish please do not tarry. Nothing is really worth the hissy fits you put yourself through because of those boundaries.

Interestingly enough I had contact with an individual who not only has figured out the location of the Temple but from what was said has figured out the location of Rhoda. Next someone will be digging up Sedona.

Perhaps you should work on you interpersonal skills. Calling folks bad names is not the road to success. If you find it somehow satisfying perhaps you should seek medical attention.


May the stars keep you safe.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Well thank you Klondike for not making me wait to the very last moment of the 25th to find your reply.

Klondike wrote
Hello Roy,

Since boundaries of this dialogue have already been establish please do not tarry. Nothing is really worth the hissy fits you put yourself through because of those boundaries.
Hissy fits? Why do you keep assuming that I am SO upset? Tired of the never-ending BS yes, but I think we have been more than patient with you and your stories. Your "boundaries" really exclude any kind of solid proof, don't they? But you seem to have ignored some other boundaries of the dialogue too - like the boundaries of credibility, and of patience.

Klondike also wrote

Interestingly enough I had contact with an individual who not only has figured out the location of the Temple but from what was said has figured out the location of Rhoda. Next someone will be digging up Sedona.
So I guess congratulations are in order, you managed to induce someone to figure out the location of this imaginary "Temple"? How does this lend the slightest bit of credence to your story? Are you bragging of your manipulation of someone? I don't suppose that a real NAME might get attached to this expansion of your story either. Will there be tours of the ruins of Rhoda in the near future? Photos at the least? :wink:

Klondike also wrote
Perhaps you should work on you interpersonal skills. Calling folks bad names is not the road to success. If you find it somehow satisfying perhaps you should seek medical attention.
More evasion and projection. If you think that trying to discuss history with you has been in any way "satisfying" at this end, clearly the issue is reading comprehension at your end. In fact did you read anything in my last post?

Which brings me to the closing part:

Going, going,...... and GONE. Don't bother to post any kind of photos, or real names of anyone Klondike, because your time ran out. You had a "brief window" of a few years time to provide some proof of your story or stories, and all you can do is evade and try to manipulate.

You see, the problem was that you painted yourself into an impossible corner with linking Atlantis to Calalus, adding in a library (or two) of books when no known writing system existed in the time of Atlantis. You can't even say what kind of writing was in those texts or tablets.

I had asked you a while ago if you were still monitoring this forum out of curiosity, and thought I would let you have one more chance to prove up your story. You have had plenty of time to do so, and your posts show nothing but evasiveness, ignoring much of what is written to you and constant attempts to dominate and manipulate others. And you think I should seek medical attention! 8O :lol: No worries however, I won't bother to keep checking this thread to see if you finally or ever do post photos, names etc. I presume that you will not show up at the rendezvous this year either, though for what reason(s) I cannot fathom for surely it is a most pleasant, family-oriented type friendly get together.

Joe wrote
Two of the earliest spoken languages were Eblaite and Akkadian, but both were written in cuneiform.

Still not old enough for the OZ library.
Well the Oz library is almost certainly written in gematria, in the ancient Pakuni language. I presume that ship sunk in the Salt river probably has the video tape collection which was, tragically but heroically lost due to being sunk in the great naval battle of Horse Mesa seaport, fighting off the Toltec battle fleet. I am making plans now to locate and pillage the tomb of the first Calalus king, which as I am sure you will affirm, is well hidden deep underground in the Superstitions. The tentative date for this expedition is set for right after the second Wednesday of next week. I presume you are going with me into this fantastical underworld, so we can document everything - one person alone might not be believed later on. I am not bringing any dogs either, having heard of the well-known fears of the underground people toward all canines.

To all reading this:
Side thing here but for anyone reading this lengthy discussion, this kind of nonsense is a pet peeve of mine. There really is evidence of ancient visitors to America, hundreds and even thousands of years before Columbus, not vast stone ruins or lost colonies of Romans, but fairly solid evidence indicating some limited level of contact in ancient times. It damages the credibility of anyone promoting this ancient contact between Old world and New when we have people making up stuff and broadcasting it to the public as if it were factual. To me, this is worse than a hoax, for a hoaxer usually is doing it for laughs, with someone that presses his case (without any proof) like we have seen here with the land of "OZ" it is not for laughs and will likely find some believers. We have tried to grant plenty of time for these persons to provide some kind of proof to back up this tale of Oz, which now has grown a sunken ship in the Salt river on top of an already impossible story, and have gotten not a single photo of one of the texts in the supposed library, nor a single real name for all these alternate identities.

These are hallmarks of a fraud. Don't be a victim of such frauds - do your own research, there are fascinating pieces of evidence that people were coming from the Mediterranean, Africa and even the Far East to be found scattered all over the continent,1000, 2000, even 3000 years ago, but be wary of such tall tales as you can see in this thread. Heck just a few years ago a strange oblong stone was found near Globe AZ that has ancient Semitic "backwards" writing on it, that unfortunately has since been swept up in the mania to ID everything as Spanish, but the stone really looks to be a land claim monument dating back at least 2500 years. I am 100% certain that more artifacts, inscriptions, perhaps even caches of treasure remain to be found. Go, seek out these clues of our unwritten history - but don't let some anonymous 'know it all' on an internet forum send you on a pointless wild goose chase either.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Roy,

A lot of words. It is surprising that one so gifted with words would find so little time to do the basic work that is needed to begin a journey of discovery.

Perhaps your guiding path is that If you cannot succeed simply rant and rave. Doesn`t work that way.

Simply put do you homework, engage the history you proclaim to have interest in. I really don`t think engagement is what you ever wanted, what you wanted was simply nothing. Well you are there now and you got there without the civility and discipline that you seem to not even now understand.

It is easy to give speeches more difficult to find the truth. All you have proven is sophistry is alive and well in todays world. Perhaps you should do commercials for the Home Shopping Network.

You see Roy no one here is selling anything. We never did. You on the other hand were always selling one simple position. Nothing.

Perhaps helping you start down that path was too much. Obviously hard work is something you should shy away from. I will just leave this hear so your public can understand what it is you had so little time to work:

This is your starting point:


1. The photo you posted is of one of the rather famous Tucson Artifacts. Which artifact? I will give you a hint the word begins with L.

2. Below the symbol you will see a temple. What are the three letters that appear below it?

3. On the reverse of this artifact are several symbols that are important in understanding both the Travis book and a physical landmark in Arizona. What are those symbols?

4. Variations of this symbol appear on several of the artifacts. What do those variations suggest?

5. This particular artifact suggests that the Tucson Artifacts were created by multiple parties. Why?

You see Roy if you want to understand the artifacts you will want to understand and answer these questions. If not you are just surfing the internet practicing voodoo history or laying traps.

Answer the questions Roy the duke will be proud of you.

Take it or leave it. And leaving is ok. This is not easy stuff. It never has been. That is not entirely so. It seems for a few it was.

Good luck with whatever path you take.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
Roy,

A lot of words. It is surprising that one so gifted with words would find so little time to do the basic work that is needed to begin a journey of discovery. <snip>
OMG :lol: :lol: :lol:

<<GAME OVER>>

:roll:
Thanks for the yuk-yuks!

OZ + Library, Temple, Sunken Ship on Salt River, + Atlantis + Calalus + Rhoda = BS
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

It is good to see you can draw conclusions from you limited base of data.

Now you can return to the flat earth society and feel safe and secure within the womb of how does one say this your illusions.

Illusions. Imagine for you that is a good thing. Then again you still have bigfoot and the lizard men to research from the comfort of your computer.

Maybe all of this and your other interests are simply a game. Enjoy.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

It is good to see you can draw conclusions from you limited base of data.
It was simply a matter of your tall tale, with not one photo of a single text from the supposed library, nor anything else to prove there is substance to your tales. Without proof, it remains a tall tale - you could very easily make me a liar however with some photos, real names etc.

Klondike also wrote
Now you can return to the flat earth society and feel safe and secure within the womb of how does one say this your illusions.
Ah yes, insults, your forte and standard fall-back position! Where did I ever mention the flat earth society at all? What does that have to do with this? You are getting pathetic amigo.

Klondike also wrote

Illusions. Imagine for you that is a good thing. Then again you still have bigfoot and the lizard men to research from the comfort of your computer.

Maybe all of this and your other interests are simply a game. Enjoy.


Klondike
Wow - a game, from the fellow whom has been playing this game for over ten years! Hahaha! Do you consider bigfoot or the Hopi legend of the lizard people imaginary? I can easily post photos of bigfoot, and their tracks. Can you post photos of the texts in your Oz library?

Meganthropus Blacki, aka bigfoot
Image

Hopi panel showing lizard people, ant people etc:
Image

A fantastical story of an underground city in LA, of lizard people:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sumer ... iles27.htm

OK now it is YOUR TURN! Hahaha - we both know you can not post photos of texts from your Oz library, and didn't I mention this but I am all done waiting for you.

You can continue to post insults but don't expect that I will play your game any further, and if you like to swap insults, I can sure come up with a few dandies for you too! :mrgreen:

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

I thought you would be on your vision quest with the lizard people by now. :D

Seriously good luck on whatever endeavor you may move on to.

We post what we can. More would just create problems, a lot of problems.

A few of us would like to post pictures, lots, but it is not done that way, never has been. I must admit I have weakened on occasion and not because of your colorful language its just our work is done.

The best way to keep the library safe is now to release it. Just my opinion.

Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

"The best way to keep the library safe is now to release it. Just my opinion."

OK! "Release it." Let the world know where the museum is. Release pictures of OZ, the artifacts and the books/library. It is all too important to keep playing keep away. Time for the world to know.

It's long been believed that advanced civilization's have existed on earth much longer than 10,000 years ago. Your bringing Atlantis into the story of OZ, shows that you have been keeping up with those theories.

We await the book that should follow this fantastic tale.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

I thought you would be on your vision quest with the lizard people by now. :D

Seriously good luck on whatever endeavor you may move on to.
Uh huh. Vision quest - isn't that more in line with OZ?

Klondike also wrote

We post what we can. More would just create problems, a lot of problems.

A few of us would like to post pictures, lots, but it is not done that way, never has been. I must admit I have weakened on occasion and not because of your colorful language its just our work is done.

The best way to keep the library safe is now to release it. Just my opinion.

Klondike
I have to agree with Joe - RELEASE IT. Publishing these texts would do more to preserve them than any museum or hiding hole you can think of.

Of course to publish an ancient text, you first must have an ancient text to begin with, and you have convinced me that you and your group simply don't have any. Hence no photos.

Don't tell me you are giving up on casting insults and aspersions? 8O
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Gentlemen:

I believe the comments below really say everything that for now needs saying:

While it is always pleasing to pursue discussions that reinforce what you already believe perhaps the truth can be better served by embarking on a journey who`s destination is not yet known.

A close reading of the Bent work will diffuse many of the arguments that have been presented regarding the so called planting of the artifacts by their discoverers. Pay particular attention to the discovery of several of the artifacts and the role played by folks who were supposedly planting the artifacts. As far as confessions go a close reading of the Burgess article will probably result in more questions than answers.

Keep in mind that respected folks in the scientific community believe these are the real deal and acquaint yourself with their efforts. One should not dismiss the efforts of Covey nor the beliefs of Hardaker that both believe the artifacts were not planted. In all fairness Hardaker believes the artifacts were not planted but were not a relic of a Roman/Jewish Community referred to as Calalus.

Perhaps as a starting point consider where there is agreement. Calalus no longer exists this we can all agree. As to whether it ever did should be for you an open question. True scholarship will be uncomfortable but it will open a gate that might amaze you.

As far as the relationship between Calalus and the Superstitions a good starting place might be to research the history of the naming of Battle Ax road and the reading of the small work Arizona in the fifties. Obviously having access to the Bent/ Mcgee correspondence may provide some information. I would pay particular attention to the Mcgee comments in one of her articles regarding the location of certain sites in the Superstitions that speak of an ancient presence. Also there are signs high up in Boulder Canyon that speak not only to the Tucson Artifacts but to the presence of a more ancient people.

Having said this if you are only interested in proving a hoax I can only smile and wish you well. If you are interested in finding the truth you may or not succeed but you will be better for the journey. For us Calalus, the Library of Oz, and the Canyon of Souls are very, very real. If what you discover takes you down a different trail that is fine. Go there in good spirit.


Starman 1


Gentlemen you may want to apply your questioning technique to those at a different train station. Now we are being told there is a secret map that is the ground for the stone maps. Not only that other items such as the Latin Heart and the Crosses, since Travis didn`t make them are just part of the exploded myth of the stone maps. Perhaps you should go to that train station, call folks pathological liars since they have not produced the original map and see how far that gets you. :D

Funny seems like everything comes around in a full circle. Now we are back to mesothermal quartz and Barry Storm.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

I have, and have read and reread the Bent/McGee letters. I also have the original letters between Covey and Warren Dexter which no one, including you, has. I have the personal Dexter notations on the Covey book.

In other words, I have done my "homework" and remain unconvinced. On the other hand, I would love to be proven wrong. My mind is open to the possibility that "Calalus" is a true story.

Your "evidence", so far, is underwhelming.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Hmm there is no "LIKE" function here! Nice post Joe. Not sure the "like" functions are such a great idea anyway, people start 'playing to the crowd' instead of having an honest discussion.

I see that Klondike is still at it - and now tossing in mesothermal quartz (which I would say has nothing to do with either Calalus or the LDM) and Barry Storm, as well as re-posting another old post. This from the same fellow that does not like people to repeat a question he doesn't want to answer.

For any kind of claim of people coming from the Old world to the New, in ancient times, requires some kinds of supporting proof. Not an island of evidence. An island of absolutely genuine evidence could very easily be planted. This too has been attempted.

To Klondike - I do have Bent's manuscript and at least some of the Bernice McGee letters, for which I am indebted to Cubfan and Garry who made the letters public. See how nicely things work when they are made public, available to all? Barry Fell, a well known diffusionist and all too ready to see Celts in every rock scratching (some clearly are some kind of ancient inscriptions, don't want to make that sound as if he never found anything) concluded that the Calalus artifacts are modern fakes. I submit that if anyone should have given his stamp of approval to them, it would have been Fell.

Trying to get me (and anyone else) to follow your bread crumb trail to prove the reality of your story is not ever going to work. And by the way, RIF. Reading comprehension is an important thing. Yes the written word often comes across rather harsh, you cannot include subtle body language or speech factors to indicate when something is said that is not intended to be offensive. However, to be accurate I would ask you to post exactly where I called you a pathological liar?

I make this point because I did not call you a pathological liar. I said that your posts certainly are pointing that way, and possibly to a sociopath as well. The constant attempts to manipulate others (like me, for instance, more in a moment) are a key indicator of a sociopath. Sociopaths can be very persuasive, intelligent, charming even, and still be barking at the proverbial moon loonie tunes. However you could have made a liar of ME, so easily that it beggars description, by simply posting some photos of those texts allegedly recovered from the library of Oz, and provide some real names that could be checked. Joe has made no secret of his true name, and neither have I. But you see, Joe has been trying to be honest with you, and you might find if you actually read the posts, that I was as well.

I have known several people over the years with various idiosychronies, "quirks" if you will, and pretty much harmless. One fellow was convinced that he had to wave at everyone that passed his home, and he spent many hours sitting in front of his house, waving at every car or truck that passed. Other than that oddity, he was as normal as anyone. Your story here just keeps growing, as if being made up on the fly.

I don't really care if you post anything to prove it or not, as I know you will not - it is not possible to post photos of things that don't exist. Likewise with the real names. Your insistence that I must follow your instructions to see any proof of Calalus, Oz and the rest, is well, not proving to be very productive. Joe and I have one character feature in common, that is we are both quite stubborn. In other words, the more you push, the less likely I would ever do it, and I certainly do not believe that you could ever get Joe to go a-hiking to see some landmark that has been seen by thousands, photographed as many times, and yet not a trace of any ancient Roman colony found by anyone.

The discussions on the other forums on the Peralta stones et al, have much more evidence than you have ever provided. The only thing in common is that it will never end - the believers will continue to believe, and non-believers are not likely to change their minds either.

I have told you (repeatedly) that I would happily discuss history, and am even willing to speculate somewhat - but it must have some basis in reality. You mentioned Circlestone - do you know the dimensions <diameter> of that stone circle? Do you know if the 'stone age cubit' works in that measurement, or perhaps the cubit of another ancient civilization or culture? How many inscriptions were found at Circlestone?

To show how Circlestone simply is not related to Calalus - there is no trace of any Roman, Latin, Greek or Hebrew inscriptions to be seen there, not even as graffiti. Should some now appear there, it would be modern fakery. So please do not try to link Circlestone with Calalus and Oz. Somehow I rather doubt that asking you nicely will do any good.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy.

You are more than correct that Barry Fell would find, if at all possible, any authenticity in his good friend Cyclone Covey's conclusions on Calalus. I also have a few books by Warren Dexter, having nothing to do with Calalus, and without any mention of that story.

The ESOP Volume 19-1990 deals with the subject in a straight forward, no axe to grind, manner. Considering the natural inclination of the journal and founding editor, Barry Fell, it is indeed enlightening. I am more than impressed with the research into the story.

On the other hand, it's an interesting story and Ben's efforts at convincing us of its truth has been somewhat monumental. It may never die.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Gentlemen:

Perhaps this bears repeating:

"Having said this if you are only interested in proving a hoax I can only smile and wish you well. If you are interested in finding the truth you may or not succeed but you will be better for the journey. For us Calalus, the Library of Oz, and the Canyon of Souls are very, very real. If what you discover takes you down a different trail that is fine. Go there in good spirit".

We have never asked anything of anybody other than if you wish to embark on a voyage of discovery regarding Oz, The Tucson Artifacts, and the people, to only do it in the right way. We can only take you so far and you have to cross the finish line based on you own abilities, thinking and perseverance.

Remember the library of Oz brings into question the very history you believe in. Simply put that is why when you use that history to understand the library you will ultimately fail.

That is one of the reasons we help, and during our own journey we have always reached out to individuals in normal life and in the academic community to help us understand that which we all ultimately have found amazing.

Again, good luck in your adventures.

Klondike

0L(The 0 is the symbol of the ancients. The L is a dual symbol used by both us and the ancients. For us the symbol stands for library. In the language of the ancients the symbol L represents the connections between generations. One line for the past, one line for the future. One generation ends another begins. You will not understand this language looking backwards you have to dwell within it.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Gentlemen:

Perhaps this bears repeating:

We have never asked anything of anybody other than if you wish to embark on a voyage of discovery regarding Oz, The Tucson Artifacts, and the people, to only do it in the right way. We can only take you so far and you have to cross the finish line based on you own abilities, thinking and perseverance.

Remember the library of Oz brings into question the very history you believe in. Simply put that is why when you use that history to understand the library you will ultimately fail.

That is one of the reasons we help, and during our own journey we have always reached out to individuals in normal life and in the academic community to help us understand that which we all ultimately have found amazing.

0L(The 0 is the symbol of the ancients. The L is a dual symbol used by both us and the ancients. For us the symbol stands for library. In the language of the ancients the symbol L represents the connections between generations. One line for the past, one line for the future. One generation ends another begins. You will not understand this language looking backwards you have to dwell within it.
Repeating again! Sheesh. 8O I thought you did not like it when things are repeated?

How unimaginative that you can ONLY bring this story to light, by your prescribed methods. Another red flag of phony flying there. Real history does not need to be approached by a single method.

Your interpretations are rather at odds with established knowledge, concerning the letter symbols. By your interpretation, the writing on the Calalus artifacts would be virtually un-readable.

I believe I have that ESOP article too, thank you Joe some evening I will have to read that. And yes you would think that Fell would support Covey in his conclusions, yet this was not the case. Not good for Calalus, I am afraid, when one of the leading diffusionists calls it phony.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

"you would think that Fell would support Covey in his conclusions, yet this was not the case. Not good for Calalus, I am afraid, when one of the leading diffusionists calls it phony."

Yes, Fell is near the top of the chain when it comes to this kind of thing. No doubt Ben thinks he has also not done his homework as well. Perhaps they should make some kind of contact. I would imagine Ben would have no trouble winning him over to his story. Do you think Fell might ask for the same kind of evidence that we have? Now that would be a hoot!

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

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Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

"you would think that Fell would support Covey in his conclusions, yet this was not the case. Not good for Calalus, I am afraid, when one of the leading diffusionists calls it phony."

Yes, Fell is near the top of the chain when it comes to this kind of thing. No doubt Ben thinks he has also not done his homework as well. Perhaps they should make some kind of contact. I would imagine Ben would have no trouble winning him over to his story. Do you think Fell might ask for the same kind of evidence that we have? Now that would be a hoot!

Take care,

Joe
Hmm - perhaps Fell's non-support is why we must follow that prescribed path, to do it the "right way" or we might well end up making the same conclusions as Fell?

What is rather remarkable to me, perhaps we have covered this before, but Klondike et al never even considered the possibility, even probability, that the Tucson artifacts are not located anywhere near where "Rhoda" was nor any of the events described on the artifacts. The name Toltecs should have been a hot clue, since no Toltec presence has ever been found in AZ that I am aware of anyway.

Then add in that there actually IS evidence of possible Roman visitors to Mexico, but way south of Arizona. In fact we have that enigmatic statuette head found in CALIXTLAHUACA
Image

<very good article on the site where I borrowed this set of images from at:
http://www.unm.edu/~rhristov/calixtlahuaca.html

Then compare where the Toltec empire was located:
Image

There was also the find of a cache of Roman coins on the Atlantic coast of Mexico in the 19th century, don't have any links to that but anyway the point was that those artifacts may have originated in the Toltec homeland, or close to it, and got transported to the site on Silverbell road where they were found. Certainly a stronger case for that location can be made, than to try to place Rhoda in Snaketown or Tucson or Phoenix, all of which had a civilized people living in them in the supposed time period and should then have left SOME traces of contact with these foreigners from across the sea. I guess that Ben, Late49er, Eldorado, Starman,Klondike et al never considered that possibility?
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

"The name Toltecs should have been a hot clue, since no Toltec presence has ever been found in AZ that I am aware of anyway."

You are correct here. The Toltecs, although a strong military society, were primarily a trade people. Their military was not sufficient in numbers to engage in distant warfare. Their power and influence was concentrated in the areas close to Tollan, as they could not maintain a reliable line of resupply of any considerable distance.

One of my main sources for this information is "War and Society in Ancient Mesoamerica" by Ross Hassig.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Gentlemen:

I really enjoyed your posts and wish you well in your endeavors. Joe made a comment that really has helped me understand it well is time to let go. 10 years is a long time and well none of us are getting any younger. I have seen too many good folks pass on and it really is time to celebrate the years remaining and not dwell on what was not accomplished. A lot has been accomplished and that is what should be remembered.

If I have one regret it is not being able to celebrate the accomplishments of some really fine folks that were apart of all of this through the years. One particular person I will never forget. I will always remember our walks here at the University on the Quad. She was quite the lady and was involved in all of this for a long, long time. Her beauty and intellect was rare and her ability to persuade was not to be believed. I remember the days just talking as we walked by the building were the Dutchman Ore was tested and simply trying to figure out what to recommend with all of this. I will always miss her greatly. But enough. I will leave you with this:

Perhaps for a long time you folks have asked the wrong question about what our motive was. Originally it was to remove the library for its own safety. Now the library has been converted to data that we can turn on in a second and make available to all mankind. It is quickly becoming apparent our job is done.

What we would like is to return the original contents of the library to its home, restore the site and teach classes there free of charge for the whole world. The site will be a world heritage site and under the auspices of the United Nations.

On a personal level I would like to teach the first class, and afterwards turn all of this over to young folks. Hopefully they will learn from our mistakes.

Actually I am glad to hand all of this off to a younger person. It will be interesting to see what they do. I have recommended they do things differently. :lol:

Good luck and may the stars keep you safe.


Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

I believe I know who the "young lady" was. Since she is gone now, why not mention her name? My guess is that it's because she never mentioned or wrote anything concerning the Superstitions or the Tucson artifacts.

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Gentlemen:

I really enjoyed your posts and wish you well in your endeavors. Joe made a comment that really has helped me understand it well is time to let go. 10 years is a long time and well none of us are getting any younger. I have seen too many good folks pass on and it really is time to celebrate the years remaining and not dwell on what was not accomplished. A lot has been accomplished and that is what should be remembered.
I see, so now that we will not play your game, and worse, uncomfortable issues have been pointed out (Rhoda may be in south-central Mexico not Arizona) you want to quit and run away. Ten years is a long time of course, and a long time to play a game don't you think?

Klondike also wrote

If I have one regret it is not being able to celebrate the accomplishments of some really fine folks that were apart of all of this through the years. One particular person I will never forget. I will always remember our walks here at the University on the Quad. She was quite the lady and was involved in all of this for a long, long time. Her beauty and intellect was rare and her ability to persuade was not to be believed. I remember the days just talking as we walked by the building were the Dutchman Ore was tested and simply trying to figure out what to recommend with all of this. I will always miss her greatly. But enough. I will leave you with this:
Another nameless person? Why?

Klondike also wrote

Perhaps for a long time you folks have asked the wrong question about what our motive was. Originally it was to remove the library for its own safety. Now the library has been converted to data that we can turn on in a second and make available to all mankind. It is quickly becoming apparent our job is done.

What we would like is to return the original contents of the library to its home, restore the site and teach classes there free of charge for the whole world. The site will be a world heritage site and under the auspices of the United Nations.

On a personal level I would like to teach the first class, and afterwards turn all of this over to young folks. Hopefully they will learn from our mistakes.

Actually I am glad to hand all of this off to a younger person. It will be interesting to see what they do. I have recommended they do things differently. :lol:

Good luck and may the stars keep you safe.


Klondike
How many times are you going to post those several paragraphs? I thought you did not like repeating? Your job is very far from "done" - in fact you have refused to answer a whole string of questions over the years, repeatedly.

Are you aware of the Roman looking mason's marks found on bricks in an ancient Mayan site?
Image
<article at: http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/1241 ... oman-links

Guess what part of Mexico we will find the ruins of Comalcalco in? It is not up in the northern end of the country nor anywhere near Arizona. Yes it is in the southern part of the country, right on the coast.

Really the more you look at it, the greater probability is that the Tucson artifacts, IF genuine, came from some place in southern Mexico where some kind of contact with Romans appears to have occurred in ancient times.

I was a little surprised that you folks never seem to have even considered that possibility, that the strange lead artifacts might have come from well south of the border. Nope - you have been trying to get people to run around in the Superstitions (and elsewhere) for years and insisting that it is all true, we just have to study it "the right way".

I like to look at the big picture - not just one site, and for a story like this Calalus, there must be evidence scattered about that would prove it, not just one single island of evidence in the entire continent. This remote location for the events told of on the artifacts, would also explain the rather odd way the objects were found deposited, seemingly "Dumped" in the place where they were, not due to some flood or being deposited over 10,000 years ago, but dumped in holes because of other reasons. Like a fleeing remnant of the original population, trying to escape from their enemies, and decided to get rid of anything and everything that might slow down that flight, for one example of other possible reasons.

Anyway good luck and good hunting, we all want to be alerted when your book is available, and of course when you publish that library and especially the extended version of Critias.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike - I don't want to see you ever complain about 'childish behavior' again, when you are exhibiting it here repeatedly. From personal attacks when your arguments are failing, to running away and pouting like a spoiled child. A discussion is not a teacher talking at a class of students. Usually a good discussion is an exchange of ideas (and arguments supporting or attacking against) between relative equals. We are not equals of course, on probably several different aspects but we are not in class either.

For your story of Oz to be true, firstly the Calalus artifacts need to be genuine. I remain very far from convinced that they are genuinely over 1000 years old, when every word of the Latin on them can be found in a Latin school text book from the 1920s. But if they were real, then the story they tell should have left a trail of 'crumbs' where over seven hundred 'Romans' (using that term loosely, but Byzantines considered themselves to be Romans) had passed.

I have not seen a single piece of evidence that any Romans have ever entered any part of Arizona, outside of the Calalus artifacts. On the other hand, there ARE some quite intriguing pieces of evidence found in southern Mexico, and elsewhere in the Americas such as in Brazil. Of course that wreck in the Bay of Jars really appears to have originated in North Africa, so would have been a Roman provincial vessel more likely than a ship that set sail from Ostia. But the amphora jars used for commerce in those days were used and re-used, with a ship loading a cargo in one port and carrying them to a distant port as a matter of course, so these Moroccan jars of the 1st-3rd century AD off Brazil, could have been loaded on a Roman ship from Ostia or Puteoli or Rhegium, we won't know unless and until some more study can turn up more clues. But in short (for another LONG post) we have an important clue in the homeland of the Toltecs in southern Mexico, the ancient Roman statuette (head fragment) found in the same general region, the masons marks on bricks also in the same general region, among several other distinct pieces of a puzzle indicating that Romans (again using that term loosely, to mean people from the Roman empire not Rome the city) had visited the region.

In fact the weight of the evidence, (such as it is, thin) points to southern Mexico as the most probable area where the Calalus artifacts, or at least the story it tells, originated.

You have accused me of 'laying traps' for you, repeatedly. In reading back over some of the discussion (such as it was, with numerous evasions) it does appear to be traps, but really only when your stories are leading you into errors and impossible situations. Like the 10,000 year old library, when no known written language existed. Those questions were not intended as traps, in most cases I (or Joe) was asking about a point because of the apparent contradictions or impossibilities your story has contained. So yes they would seem to be traps for someone spinning a fantasy tale, whereas if the story of Oz were true, there should not have been any difficulties. If anything, these 'trap" questions have assisted you in refining your tale, for you have never provided any solid evidence, not even real names of persons involved, to support that tale.

I left out one possible explanation for how the Calalus artifacts could have ended up buried in scattered locations on Silverbell road - that they were trophies taken by people that had successfully conquered the Calalus 'colonists'. Perhaps these warriors, returning to their own homeland, had some bad luck on the way (sickness struck, or a terrible storm, etc) and due to their superstitious beliefs, they believed this ill fortune had befallen them due to those 'magical' relics seized in combat. In such a case, burying them would have been a logical and practical solution, to free them from any curse or dark spirits pursuing them home.

A vanished colony is a most fascinating story, we have several known examples like the Roanoke colony. In that example, we have the documents from the Old World, traces left on Roanoke island, and linguistic (as well as family names, not sure about DNA) evidence pointing to what happened to the people of Roanoke colony. They seem to have moved in with friendly Indians, and the English did not think to look among those Indians until so many years had elapsed that they were lost forever. The survivors were adopted and absorbed into that tribe. If the Calalus story is true, this could have been what happened to those people as well - although having such powerful enemies as the Toltecs points to a bloody and violent end.

These 'Roman' colonists may well have been aggressive, enslaving the natives, were probably quite formidable warriors with iron armor and weaponry, which would hardly have won the hearts of the local peoples. A force of powerful soldiers, seizing anything they liked, spreading fire and the sword to cut a swath, forced religious conversions and enslavement where ever they passed. A likely picture of this story would be very far from the altruistic, noble tale of OZ that you have proposed.

Well as you have chosen to flee the discussion (again) and virtually 'pout' there is no point in following this thread any farther. Almost from the start you seem to have viewed Joe as an enemy, slowly softening to a less adversarial view which is good. On the other hand, I tried to engage you politely, hoping to see your evidence to support your tale, and over time have lost confidence in you entirely. In short - I am fed up with you, your evasiveness, your endless game playing, and constant attempts to manipulate. If you really are a professor at a university, I shudder to think what your classes must be like. Rather than instructing your students, you probably follow the same pattern of behavior, telling some 'clue' and demanding that your students then proceed to find "your" answers by your prescribed methods. It is a good thing to get your students to think, and think for themselves, but unless you provide the materials and sources, their study is hampered by being 'blind' to what information and instructional materials they could be using. Like in our thread here, to parallel that example - photos of those texts supposedly recovered from the OZ library.

To all reading this - good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

"A vanished colony is a most fascinating story, we have several known examples like the Roanoke colony. In that example, we have the documents from the Old World, traces left on Roanoke island, and linguistic (as well as family names, not sure about DNA) evidence pointing to what happened to the people of Roanoke colony. They seem to have moved in with friendly Indians, and the English did not think to look among those Indians until so many years had elapsed that they were lost forever. The survivors were adopted and absorbed into that tribe. If the Calalus story is true, this could have been what happened to those people as well - although having such powerful enemies as the Toltecs points to a bloody and violent end."

I believe the bodies of the colonists from Roanoke have been found. Other than that, great post.

Take care,

Joe
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