Yellow Jackets

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Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
Mr. Ribaudo and Roy,

Having a dialogue with you gentlemen is so like being in a bad western movie. You can always count on the bad guys to put lead(not the Tucson Artifacts), in your back when you exit the saloon. Seems if you can`t deal with the discussion at hand simply shoot them in the back as they head out for the summer.
Your departure certainly had odd timing, and the "lead" was more like a few barbs. You have tossed plenty over this discussion.

Will it do any good for me to ask you to post some photos of the books, or tablets, scrolls, codex or what ever kind of records are or were in this library? I have asked before and you would not post any photos. What kind of writing is on the books, is it hieroglyphics, alphabetic, cuneiform, numeric or what? What language are the books written in? These are important questions. If you can not answer them, how can we believe there was any such library?

People make up wild stories and post them on treasure forums all the time. There was one about a Time Portal in the Superstitions not so long ago, that made the newspapers and people were trying to hire guides to go hunt tyrannosaurs in the Superstitions because of that. I think you would admit that the story of Oz and the underground secret library, which are not found mentioned in the writing on the Tucson artifacts, is hard to believe without having seen the library and books. Did you simply accept the story as absolute truth the first you learned of it, without seeing any evidence? What was your reaction when you were first told of it? I bet you wanted to see it and had plenty of doubts until you did. Truth is often stranger than any fiction, I would love to see this story proved true - however so far you have not convinced me, or Joe for that matter.

NP and his mission on the Superstitions story are a case in point. In his case, having talked to him by pm, I found him quite intelligent and not prone to fantasies, and in fact I think he really believed the story of the mission was true. Perhaps he had accepted it at face value without checking it. As to Mr Roberts we have a different sort of situation. He certainly has a great deal of historical knowledge, but having been the source of a number of points or statements that have proven to be not true, makes us hesitant to accept anything he says without checking it.

One last thing Klondike, but I would bet a proverbial nickel that if our debate positions were reversed, and I were the one posting a story as you did, you would be just as hesitant to believe it and would want to see solid proof. I will leave the door open that you may yet post or otherwise provide that kind of evidence that Oz and the library are not just added on stories to the Calalus saga, and hope that you don't bolt out that door again so rudely.

Good luck and good hunting to everyone reading this, I hope you are all having a great summer and may you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
Mr. Ribaudo and Roy,

Having a dialogue with you gentlemen is so like being in a bad western movie. You can always count on the bad guys to put lead(not the Tucson Artifacts), in your back when you exit the saloon. Seems if you can`t deal with the discussion at hand simply shoot them in the back as they head out for the summer.
Joe, did you know that you and I are the BAD GUYS? 8O :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

What.....Are you telling me you have never seen a bad guy running out the door with
hot lead whistling around his head?

Don't hold your breath waiting around for Ben to provide any kind of evidence for
OZ. We have all been waiting for lo these many years.

Hope all is well.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

You asked:

"Will it do any good for me to ask you to post some photos of the books, or tablets, scrolls, codex or what ever kind of records are or were in this library? I have asked before and you would not post any photos. What kind of writing is on the books, is it hieroglyphics, alphabetic, cuneiform, numeric or what? What language are the books written in? These are important questions. If you can not answer them, how can we believe there was any such library?"

I believe the earliest writing came out of Mesopotamia and was Sumerian. Thousands of years prior to that writing, there was a system of manipulating symbols. It was simply a method of counting and accounting for goods that were traded. The symbols were clay tokens.

The only books that would have meaning for us today, would be an accounting of the history of the time. Could the people of the era even read such books, or was that reserved for the priests and some kind of royalty?

Ben has told us that this library is of great importance to the world of today. That would indicate that he, or someone else, has the ability to read the books. This despite the age he has attributed to the library.

Why has he been trying to get us to understand what took place and resided in OZ, without giving us the tools to understand it.

On the other hand, it has been fun. :lol:

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

You asked:

"Will it do any good for me to ask you to post some photos of the books, or tablets, scrolls, codex or what ever kind of records are or were in this library? I have asked before and you would not post any photos. What kind of writing is on the books, is it hieroglyphics, alphabetic, cuneiform, numeric or what? What language are the books written in? These are important questions. If you can not answer them, how can we believe there was any such library?"

I believe the earliest writing came out of Mesopotamia and was Sumerian. Thousands of years prior to that writing, there was a system of manipulating symbols. It was simply a method of counting and accounting for goods that were traded. The symbols were clay tokens.

The only books that would have meaning for us today, would be an accounting of the history of the time. Could the people of the era even read such books, or was that reserved for the priests and some kind of royalty?

Ben has told us that this library is of great importance to the world of today. That would indicate that he, or someone else, has the ability to read the books. This despite the age he has attributed to the library.

Why has he been trying to get us to understand what took place and resided in OZ, without giving us the tools to understand it.

On the other hand, it has been fun. :lol:

Take care,

Joe
I am equally puzzled as to his motive(s) in trying to get us (and anyone reading this) to accept and believe the story of Oz, the Tucson artifacts etc and even including Atlantis in the mix. I have had some doubts that he even believes it himself.

Also agree that it has been fun (and you are right, it often has happened that the BAD GUY went flying out the door with hot lead following him! :mrgreen: ) and did get me to go back to the books, which I very much enjoyed. As you pointed out, we do not have any evidence of any kind of writing being done circa 10,500 BC, nor who or whom would have been able to read it. There are suggestions in the Egyptian and Phoenician sources, that some kind of writing system or some way of recording events was in use even before that time, perhaps pictograms on rock walls or perhaps it was simply oral history passed around the tribal camp fires for centuries.

But we are told that a whole library of such books exists, that this collection of texts was found in a secret underground vault in the Superstitions, and the texts were then smuggled to South Africa. Hence my questions about what kind of writing it is, what language are they written in, for if he could read them, then it must be a known language and likely not Atlantian at all, and he refuses to answer these questions OR to post a photo of any of the texts. I for one am very skeptical about this story especially when he can't say what kind of writing it is or provide a single photo of one of the texts. But I thought it cannot hurt to ask, some people are difficult to get to open up, our friend has frequently been insulted over the discussion so perhaps he will provide some answers and photos after a cooling-off period? Or is he simply myth-building, to fulfill some less-than honorable goal, or to boost sales for an upcoming book? I hope it is not something dishonorable, and a book would likely be a top seller, even if fictional.

I hope all is well with you folks, STAY COOL and to anyone reading this, I hope you are having a great summer!
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Gentlemen:

Well it seems some progress is possible. A little.

As has been indicated before the library is really two libraries. The first library was created by the ancients and details of its contents have been extensively posted on another web site. The contents of this library were in the form of tablets. Tablets created from a mixture of copper and gold. The second library is a mixture of material from the ancient world at the time of Calalus books, etc., that were brought here from the old world. Also I might add an extensive and comprehensive effort by the settlers themselves regarding the world and peoples they encountered here.

As far as proof goes we have been abundantly clear as to the location of the library. Also in another dialogue positive evidence linking the library of Oz to the Tucson Artifacts was established to anyone willing to simply take the time to study the artifacts and use that dialogue to interpret what is really right in front of you.

For a brief moment there existed an opportunity for conclusive proof to be presented but that moment has passed. You had the opportunity to open that gate but you didn`t. Having said that I will briefly present what would have been part of a public announcement geared to answer the question, what is it we wanted.


When our young people attain the age of 18 they participate in a class. This class lasts for 30 days. We teach them in detail what they have seen in our museum and been taught by their families their entire lives. They are provided several texts as study material that are returned at the end of each day. Those texts include:

1. Timaeus, Critias, the extended version
2. A history of Oz, 227 pages.
3. A history of the People, the voyage of discovery, the creation of Circlestone, the holocaust,the Tucson Artifacts. 349 pages.
4. The Lost Dutchman Mine, Sims Ely. Published by Eyre&Spottiswoode, London
5. Maps of the ancient world from the time of Atlantis till the destruction of Calalus. Modern Maps of the Superstition Mountains, Southern Nevada,(Eldorado Canyon, Spirit Mountain in particular) and Arizona showing the locations of temples and cities of Calalus and the ancients.

The class is introduced with a short history lesson. It goes something like this:

We are all the children of Calalus. Some of us older, some of us younger. Great sacrifices were made by those who preceded you. Today you sit in a beautiful museum surrounded by the history of your people and the history of a more ancient civilization. Both have many similarities. Both were destroyed because of their pride, both cared for a library that taught them to be better. Neither was. In the last days of Calalus it was decided to conceal the library and create artifacts that would be a testament to the people and a map home to their most holy place in the Superstition Mountains. A place we call Oz. A place they simply referred to as OL.

The soldiers, both men and women who died in the Superstitions saving Oz were the best of our people. They died to protect our heritage and a more ancient one. If you look out the windows to the cemetary you can see the last resting places of those we have brought home. You also know that one of them carved on a cave wall in the Canyon of the Souls, the words, "May the Stars keep you safe". From your text you can see a photograph of this. Now I will call your attention to the walls of the museum where this sentence is written in every language of mankind. Why so? It is because this soldier understood what he was about to die for. His people, and a library that would one day be a beacon to all mankind. A library that would teach us the preciousness of human life and how fragile it is. We are the shepherds of this world not its destroyers. You will come to understand the particular role that the people, who traveled the world by the stars, played in this project. The Star People.When the ancients sealed up the library and carved a O above its entrance to them it represented that the world was ending. They were wrong. Oz is just the beginning.

May the stars keep you safe. Now let us begin.

Perhaps for a long time you folks have asked the wrong question about what our motive was. Originally it was to remove the library for its own safety. Now the library has been converted to data that we can turn on in a second and make available to all mankind. It is quickly becoming apparent our job is done.

What we would like is to return the original contents of the library to its home, restore the site and teach classes there free of charge for the whole world. The site will be a world heritage site and under the auspices of the United Nations.

On a personal level I would like to teach the first class, and afterwards turn all of this over to young folks. Hopefully they will learn from our mistakes.


Klondike


You see gentlemen sometimes having an open mind, being polite and respectful does pay dividends. The language of the ancients? To us it is beautiful. To the folks who unraveled it particularly one lady it is as she said. "A gift from a world we can only imagine. While the language is no longer with us it still exists in the very fabric of our world in a million places. It engulfs us".

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Well thank you Klondike for the explanation of your motives, as a group and individually.

There was a brief moment in time, when I thought you might actually be on to something, but your avoiding answering rather simple questions pretty well sealed it. You neglected to say what kind of writing this "library" or libraries are written in, and what language(s) the writing is in. If there really were a library, or now two of them, those answers would be the simplest of all to answer. I now can understand why you never have posted any photos of the books or scrolls or what ever form of written tablets they are, copper/gold etc. It is hard to photograph what does not exist.

I respectfully disagree with your group's motive, on the grounds that it is intended to teach a future generation a fictitious version of history. I don't take history lightly, and believe in telling it warts and all, even in correcting it where our historians have failed us, as in the example of ancient explorers visiting America - but not in fictionalizing it. You have not proven that any Roman colony existed in Arizona, much less anything to tie it in with Plato and Atlantis. An image on the highly questionable Tucson artifacts does not prove that a library exists. Neither does a dinosaur on the same artifacts prove they had encountered living dinosaurs.

What is rather remarkable is your choice of venue, for launching this altered history project; you must realize that most if not all of the members here are treasure hunters, and the idea of consigning any part of Arizona to the UN control would be anathema. Plus most treasure hunters are seeking a financial gain in their quest, not the altruistic type motives of training a new generation of people to believe in what certainly appears to be a fictional version of history. I would have thought that contacting the news media or some very popular internet site like Facebook or Twitter, would reach a much larger audience, and also people whose main interest is not treasure hunting.

You have been trying to play games here from the very start Klondike, and continue to do so, as with your "there was a brief moment" type of "tease". When Joe and I won't play the way you wish, you have reacted by vanishing for weeks or months as if pouting like a spoiled child. I wonder how you would like it were Joe and I to act that way.

I wish you good luck, except that being honest, I hope that your idea of creating some kind of UN "history" site in the Superstition mountains will not come to pass. Stranger things have happened though so who knows? Hasta luego muchachos;
Oroblanco

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― Socrates
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Oroblanco,

Oh well. So much for progress.

As we have stated in the past on numerous occasions there is a history, a real history that you have not really taken the time to understand. The clues, the hints all lead to something very very real and very important.

Several years ago a young anthropologist walked into our library in South Africa. She was a very intelligent lady, who simply enough had read these discussions and developed a passion for understanding the truth. She worked through what had been posted, researched a lot on her own and put it all together. She now works on the staff at the library.

Your quote by Socrates was interesting. I will leave you one by the Duke. "I don`t like quitters, I never have." You see Roy she was not a quitter. She did not surf the internet searching for one mystery after another developing only a shallow knowledge of everything and no knowledge of anything. I have always believed that quitters like to blame others for their failures, people who succeed reach the top. It is easy to do what you and Mr. Ribaudo do it is hard to engage the truth and benefit from its revealing.


Good luck in your efforts,

Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

You never fail to bring a smile to my face. In that vein, has your anthropologist ever wrote or even hinted about your momentous find?

Good luck,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
Hello Oroblanco,

Oh well. So much for progress.
Indeed, for a moment I almost thought you might provide a photo of one of those library books or tablets, and describe what sort of writing it was, along with what language it is supposedly written in. Imagine my disappointment! :?

Klondike also wrote

As we have stated in the past on numerous occasions there is a history, a real history that you have not really taken the time to understand. The clues, the hints all lead to something very very real and very important.
A "real" history, as in one that is recorded, documented, and supported by corroborating evidence? Like for instance, the Norse voyages to America? Clues, hints etc more mind games. You seem to underestimate your fellow members here as a regular habit. To continue:

Klondike also wrote

Several years ago a young anthropologist walked into our library in South Africa. She was a very intelligent lady, who simply enough had read these discussions and developed a passion for understanding the truth. She worked through what had been posted, researched a lot on her own and put it all together. She now works on the staff at the library.
So you found a believer willing to commit to your project? Good for you - in fact I have no doubt that you could find millions more, if you were to put this story you have proposed into a book form. That would not make it true, but people are happy to support all kinds of doubtful theories.

Klondike also wrote
Your quote by Socrates was interesting. I will leave you one by the Duke. "I don`t like quitters, I never have." You see Roy she was not a quitter. She did not surf the internet searching for one mystery after another developing only a shallow knowledge of everything and no knowledge of anything. I have always believed that quitters like to blame others for their failures, people who succeed reach the top. It is easy to do what you and Mr. Ribaudo do it is hard to engage the truth and benefit from its revealing.
More indirect insults, and this after you make such a big deal out of courtesy and respect. :roll:

As per your usual pattern, you have presumed that Joe and I obtain all, or nearly all of our information from surfing the internet, which is unfortunately chock-a-block full of false, misleading and pure fantasy information. Oh, there is good information too, but it is wise to always confirm anything found on the internet via other sources. I do make use of the internet for quotes especially, and as a general rule, already know what quote I am seeking and it is considerably faster to cut and paste, rather than sit here with book in lap, trying to hand type every syllable.

You also continue to underestimate what Joe or I have studied, to make such statements as "a shallow knowledge". It does continue to surprise me, that a person of such obvious intelligence as yourself, is also apparently incapable of viewing this discussion from any viewpoint other than your own. I have tried to point it up to you, as in the example of how you might react and desire stronger evidence, were we to propose such a story as you have posted here. But unfortunately you are apparently not able to see any other viewpoint, even for the sake of considering what your own posts are coming across.

As to that "quitters" bit - it is not Joe nor I whom have repeatedly "run away" from the discussion, that was you amigo.

Clearly, you wish for us, and others reading the discussion but not posting, to believe and accept the tale you have provided, which is mostly not found on the Tucson artifacts and has the hallmarks of originating entirely in you or someone very close to you. You insist that the "library of Oz" or now two libraries exist, along with the rest of that story, yet your answer as to what sort of writing and what language is "the language of the ancients" and how it is "beautiful" to you. Well we have a strong clue as to what the language of the story of Atlantis really was, and it was not Egyptian nor Greek, (re-read Plato if you doubt my assertion on this) and that language is one that I have never heard of anyone ever describing it as "beautiful". In fact it is loaded with gutteral and nasal sounds, rather unpleasant to hear and to speak. Not to say that language is an ugly one, personal names in fact are often quite beautiful, like Bostar as an example. But the language itself, is not particularly pleasant sounding, not lyrical or musical as with some Amerindian languages.

As you might imagine, if you were able to see things from another person's view, this evasion of yours on what language that library is written in, as well as what kind of writing, also only raises even more doubts about your story. :(

If you really want Joe and I to at least start to accept the tale of Oz, the library and all the rest, it is going to take strong evidence - starting with photos of the tablets or books or what ever kind of records you say were found in that 'library" or pair of libraries. Then it might help your case to explain why the lead alloy which the Tucson artifacts are made of, matches the lead alloy used in car batteries of the early 20th century.

Don't get me wrong, I have enjoyed re-reading Plato, Aristotle, Aelian, Plutarch and even modern studies, but some have not been pleasant reading like Covey's confusing, jumbled work on Calalus. You have continued to mention an "extended" version of Plato's works on Atlantis too, which does not exist as far as I have been able to determine, and I have access to some very good resources on ancient books. If you have an 'extended version' it would practically be a crime to withhold it from humanity, that is if it is genuine and not just something someone has added on to Plato's great works. People have been writing books and signing false names since the invention of writing of course, which does not make them genuine. However considering that you were apparently unaware that smuggling and theft of antiquities from the US amounts to federal felonies (as well as state felonies) we must conclude that either you are fine with committing felonies or the whole thing is fictional.

You have indicated a desire to teach, to increase the knowledge of humanity, well bringing to light a genuine extended version of Plato would be doing just that. However considering your hesitance at even mentioning your real name, I don't expect you are going to make any part of your "extended" version public either.

You are not the first to try playing these mind games amigo, nor will you be the last. A glance through any of the popular online forums will turn up any number of people pretending to have secret knowledge, special "groups" of "gate keepers" whom will only allow true believers to have access to their "special" knowledge. I can't speak for Joe on this aspect, but I have tried to grant you the benefit of the doubt, awaiting some kind of solid evidence to be produced that might help your case. If you think that Joe and I have been harsh on your claims, you have seen nothing - I hope you will pitch this tale of "Oz" to real historians and publicly, and be prepared for some tough questions. Few will have the patience that Joe has exhibited with you, and some will not be so polite about their opinions.

I wish you luck in your projects, although part of it I would be very much against. Unless you can post something more substantial than more mind games, I am pretty well done with this. I would be happy to discuss and debate history with you any time - but no nonsense either.

Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

I believe your post is a perfect example of giving up. You return to the same arguments you have previously made as though they have never been made and I may say answered on many, many occasions. For example you want to talk about car batteries while we wish to discuss the most important historical site in the world. See below:

Roy states:

"You find no problem that the lead alloy the Tucson artifacts are made of, has antimony, in the same percentage as found in car battery plates of the 1920s? Lead does not occur in nature with antimony, so that had to have been added to make that alloy. Do you know of any ancient Roman or Byzantine relic made of a lead alloy that contains antimony?"

Response:

Yes I do the Tucson Artifacts.

If you read the Bent work and the chemical analysis included you would see your argument is well nonsence. See analysis performed by Pellegrin and Sons, in 1925. Pay particular attention to the comments regarding the Starr and Old Padres Mine. Lead and Antimony together, yes. Just to help see the following Covey comments:

"He for instance threw out a imprecise allusion to the artifacts as similar to common type-metal unlike the crude local lead, when he himself had reported in January, 1926 that the artifact metal, showing traces of tin, gold, silver, and copper, bore the character of ores mined in the Tucson mountains. Two years before his final report, the Tucson form of assayers, A.L. Pellegrin & Son, had proved Cummings’ earlier contention; the artifacts metal was identical to ores from local mines; type metal has 1 1/2 to three times the antimony content of the artifacts; also, type metal has no traces of gold or silver at all".

Also if you read the Bent work you would find that one artifact was found beneath a 50 year old tree. Which pretty much puts to end your concern about car battery plates of the 1920`s. See the referenced comments by Hardaker listed below:

"An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense".

Since we are giving opinions it seems to me that you and Joe simply have not done the hard work that is necessary to understand the artifacts or the library of Oz. And really you refuse to do so. The analysis that was presented on another website connecting the artifacts and the library of Oz and the ancients was never even commented on by you or Joe.

What you want to do is simply put to condemn something you do not understand and are unwilling to learn. You cannot even ask one simple question I presented.

Gentlemen you are not practicing History you are practicing fiction.


Klondike

Roy,

You see you return to this issue as though it has not been previously discussed. You never engage you simple repeat, repeat and repeat. And well then it becomes more and more boring responding and have you ignore what is being said.

Also you cry out for complete transparency while at the same time wanting to put folks in jail if it is ever given. Do you see a problem with your thinking here? Perhaps that is why we are speaking with other folks about all of this.

It seems you have a problem with the Oz site becoming a world heritage site under the auspices of the United Nations. Perhaps if you had experienced what happened to the temple complex in Spirit Mountain you would sing a different tune. That`s right if it isn`t in the history books or you can`t google it it must not be real. Well it is.

If you engage the Tucson Artifacts and the history they tell us you might one day find yourself walking into the same library in South Africa. I will be glad to give you a tour. In fact I believe the duke would also approve.

I will give you one final thing to think about. As we have stated the 0 symbol that was carved above the library is the same symbol that is engraved on the Tuscon Artifacts. It is also on the Trail Maps and is designated the circle within the circle. Guess I would call it a dot within the circle. The first 0 symbol on the trail maps shows the library of the ancients, the second circle indicates the library of our people. It is right in front of you as the end point that the trail maps take you to. Pretty simple but you have to be available to see it. Are you available?


Klondike
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

As I'm sure you know, the earliest form of writing was cuneiform out of Mesopotamia. It did not spring forth full grown, but evolved out of thousands of years of counting/accounting of an agriculture nature. The beginning of that accounting, came about with the invention of agriculture, around 8000 B.C.

Small tokens were modeled in clay in various geometric forms and used for counting and accounting of goods. Those tokens remained unchanged for around 5000 years until the rise of cities, where they simply multiplied in number and complexity.

The Sumerians took the token method of communicating numbers and over thousands of years developed it into writing. At the same time as accounting of goods came about, political power began its rise.

Ben must show us a form of writing, so far unknown, because of the age he places on the books of the library. What happens when you start creating a convoluted and extensive false history, is that the details often get lost in the prolific writing. As Ben has evolved his story, using our own posts and thoughts as his own, he adds and changes the details to match such things. My own summation of this process, is that he hopes to draw us into his fantasy by using familiarity with our own experiences to cloud the truth.

I really see no harm in what he is doing, as you and I seem to be the only folks paying much attention to what he writes in his various identities. I suppose I should add NP in, as he so wants to have something he knows, that no one else does.

Anyway, it's always interesting to see where Ben goes, just before diving down into the rabbit-hole.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

To understand what you do not know you must first let go of what you think you know. You can dismiss as fantasy that which you do not understand but in doing so you are poorer for not taking the leap that all true discovery begins with.

The books in the library are not difficult to understand. The tablets are a whole different matter. To find the specificity you seek start with what you have already been given that is the linkage between the Tucson Artifacts, the library of Oz, and most recently the trail maps.

From there think through the various symbols and signs that are in the Superstitions that speak to an ancient past. Think of a place that has been found before and since forgotten. From a lost canyon to a armory on Bluff Spring Mountain. It is all there.

This is not about what is known it is about what is not. You are in uncharted territory where thinking is the only thing that will open the past. Simply relying on what you know will not get you there. Just as what you think you know about the trail maps is comforting, what you can`t deal with is where those maps lead. They lead to Oz.

And that rabbit hole takes you not only to the language of the ancients but to the ancients. The ancients gave up and carved their symbol for the end above the library entrance 0. At least they had a legitimate reason to give up.

At least our young lady didn`t.

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Cactusjumper wrote
Ben must show us a form of writing, so far unknown, because of the age he places on the books of the library. What happens when you start creating a convoluted and extensive false history, is that the details often get lost in the prolific writing. As Ben has evolved his story, using our own posts and thoughts as his own, he adds and changes the details to match such things. My own summation of this process, is that he hopes to draw us into his fantasy by using familiarity with our own experiences to cloud the truth.
Joe I can't see a thing to disagree with in your post. I quoted that paragraph because I especially agree with it. This fantastical land of "Oz" with the underground library, smuggling of the 'books' to S Africa etc has been entertaining and as you said, probably harmless if kept in perspective.

Hello Klondike et al;
Another LONG post, so I must beg your indulgence. Thank you in advance.

<you wrote>
If you read the Bent work and the chemical analysis included you would see your argument is well nonsence.
Maybe you have not gotten it, despite repeated attempts, but I do not accept Bent's analysis. Your explanation is more like wishful thinking. What Byzantine or Roman artifacts from the Old World are made of that same lead-antimony alloy? As you evaded that question (as usual) here is the answer. None. The Tucson artifacts are UNIQUE in that aspect, which raises major red flags.

<you also wrote>
Since we are giving opinions it seems to me that you and Joe simply have not done the hard work that is necessary to understand the artifacts or the library of Oz. And really you refuse to do so. The analysis that was presented on another website connecting the artifacts and the library of Oz and the ancients was never even commented on by you or Joe.
Maybe you do not understand that when someone makes claims as you have, you are the person that should then provide proof to back up your statements. It is not up to us, to "work" to figure out what you have or think you have is true or not. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

<you also wrote>
Also you cry out for complete transparency while at the same time wanting to put folks in jail if it is ever given. Do you see a problem with your thinking here? Perhaps that is why we are speaking with other folks about all of this.
When someone makes a great historical discovery, it is normal practice for it to be announced to the world, with lots of transparency and government permits. Perhaps you were unaware of that. However your story includes theft of antiquities and smuggling of such antiquities out of the country, which are felonies and now at least you seem to realize that. IF you had really found such a 'library' it should have been brought to the attention of the state and federal authorities and in particular the Smithsonian Institute, and you should have obtained the necessary permits before proceeding with any excavation or removal. So either you knew that what you were doing was illegal, or it is all fantasy and never really happened. Considering the evasiveness and lack of any photographic proof, which would surely be 'safe' to post if it is located in another country, we can only conclude that it is not a true story.

<you also wrote.
It seems you have a problem with the Oz site becoming a world heritage site under the auspices of the United Nations. Perhaps if you had experienced what happened to the temple complex in Spirit Mountain you would sing a different tune. That`s right if it isn`t in the history books or you can`t google it it must not be real. Well it is.
Yes to the first part, perhaps but not likely to the second, and again you present NO PROOF for the last.

<you also wrote.
If you engage the Tucson Artifacts and the history they tell us you might one day find yourself walking into the same library in South Africa. I will be glad to give you a tour. In fact I believe the duke would also approve.
Thank you for the kind offer, however doubtful it may be that I would ever be visiting South Africa any time soon. Had considered purchasing a couple of different mining claims there a few years back, but they were sold before I could act on it. (One must strike while the iron is hot, he who hesitates often loses) BTW you do know that John Wayne, whose real name was Marion Morrison, was an actor, right?

<you also wrote>
I will give you one final thing to think about. As we have stated the 0 symbol that was carved above the library is the same symbol that is engraved on the Tuscon Artifacts. It is also on the Trail Maps and is designated the circle within the circle. Guess I would call it a dot within the circle. The first 0 symbol on the trail maps shows the library of the ancients, the second circle indicates the library of our people. It is right in front of you as the end point that the trail maps take you to. Pretty simple but you have to be available to see it. Are you available?
The trail maps :roll: - well now we have come full circle, and how appropriate that you conclude your post with the 0 symbol - for zero is the total proof we have seen of this library of Oz. What language are those books written in again, was it Swahili? And the writing itself, was it Rongorongo? Considering you failed to answer those simple questions repeatedly, I must conclude that my guesses then are correct. I am being facetious of course, for you evaded those questions over and over again. And yet you still think it is Joe and I whom are unwilling to do your "work" for you, to prove "Oz" is real and the whole Calalus story true?

Side thing here but you have also repeatedly used the "we" in reference to your self and your group, whomever they are - so who or whom exactly is the "we" you refer to?

I wish you luck Klondike, you seem to live in your own world and that is enough for you. By the way, you are aware that those stone maps are modern works, not ancient right? Did you read what Garry posted in another thread, about what he learned about their origins? It might 'rock' your world, but then again considering your level of belief, maybe not.

I told you that I was happy to discuss history or debate it, but this "Oz" has passed the ridiculous stage a while ago. You insist that we must accept Bent's manuscript as gospel, and more, the library of Oz, and the stone maps as well, when the stone maps are even more doubtful than the Tucson artifacts. You can sure have the last word too on Calalus and Oz, since you refused to answer two very basic questions after repeated requests, I don't see how we can proceed on that topic any further. As far as I can determine, the "library of Oz" never existed. If it did, you would easily be able to say what the language is that the books are written in, and what sort of writing they are composed of. You can not - clearly.

I hope everyone reading this long discussion is having a great summer, and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

PS while I was typing this, Klondike wrote, to Cactusjumper:
To understand what you do not know you must first let go of what you think you know
.

Hmm - so we must empty our heads, to understand? You don't see a problem there? Let us know when the translation of those books from the library of Oz will be available on Amazon will you? Especially that extended work of Plato on Atlantis. I look forward to that day.
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

From a previous post:

"I will give you one final thing to think about. As we have stated the 0 symbol that was carved above the library is the same symbol that is engraved on the Tuscon Artifacts. It is also on the Trail Maps and is designated the circle within the circle. Guess I would call it a dot within the circle. The first 0 symbol on the trail maps shows the library of the ancients, the second circle indicates the library of our people. It is right in front of you as the end point that the trail maps take you to. Pretty simple but you have to be available to see it. Are you available"?

Klondike

It is obvious you are not available. It is a shame though. A symbol from the time of Atlantis right in front of you. A symbol that appears on the Tucson Artifacts, along with a symbol for library. I believe they appear together 14 times. Maybe more maybe less but the most important symbol on the Artifacts. The symbol also appears below the base of three temples shown on the artifacts together with a symbol denoting a library.

Also the symbol exists as a prominent landmark in the Superstitions. A landmark that points the way to the library and also shows the way home for ancient mariners. Some call that symbol Circlestone. We call it what it really is a gate to the library of Oz.

But then again how can all of this compare to the vast wealth of evidence that points elsewhere. Quite favorably actually.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Curious symbol found on one of the Calalus artifacts
Curious symbol found on one of the Calalus artifacts
calalus sombrero.jpg (17.78 KiB) Viewed 71236 times
klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

From a previous post:

"I will give you one final thing to think about. As we have stated the 0 symbol that was carved above the library is the same symbol that is engraved on the Tuscon Artifacts. It is also on the Trail Maps and is designated the circle within the circle. Guess I would call it a dot within the circle. The first 0 symbol on the trail maps shows the library of the ancients, the second circle indicates the library of our people. It is right in front of you as the end point that the trail maps take you to. Pretty simple but you have to be available to see it. Are you available"?

Klondike

It is obvious you are not available. It is a shame though. A symbol from the time of Atlantis right in front of you. A symbol that appears on the Tucson Artifacts, along with a symbol for library. I believe they appear together 14 times. Maybe more maybe less but the most important symbol on the Artifacts. The symbol also appears below the base of three temples shown on the artifacts together with a symbol denoting a library.

Also the symbol exists as a prominent landmark in the Superstitions. A landmark that points the way to the library and also shows the way home for ancient mariners. Some call that symbol Circlestone. We call it what it really is a gate to the library of Oz.

But then again how can all of this compare to the vast wealth of evidence that points elsewhere. Quite favorably actually.


Klondike
What do you call this symbol? <See attached file>
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

Interesting why you picked this symbol. Oh well it is what it is. Let`s say for the point of discussion it is a bishop`s cap.

Now you can humor me.

1. The photo you posted is of one of the rather famous Tucson Artifacts. Which artifact? I will give you a hint the word begins with L.

2. Below the symbol you will see a temple. What are the three letters that appear below it?

3. On the reverse of this artifact are several symbols that are important in understanding both the Travis book and a physical landmark in Arizona. What are those symbols?

4. Variations of this symbol appear on several of the artifacts. What do those variations suggest?

5. This particular artifact suggests that the Tucson Artifacts were created by multiple parties. Why?

You see Roy if you want to understand the artifacts you will want to understand and answer these questions. If not you are just surfing the internet practicing voodoo history or laying traps.

Answer the questions Roy the duke will be proud of you.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

Interesting why you picked this symbol. Oh well it is what it is. Let`s say for the point of discussion it is a bishop`s cap.
That is interesting, that you interpret that symbol as a bishop's cap. I fail to see the resemblance, one might say it is a Mexican sombrero.

Bishop's hats
Image

Sombrero
Image

In my opinion there is more resemblance to the Mexican hat than an ancient bishop's mitre cap.

Klondike also wrote

Now you can humor me.

1. The photo you posted is of one of the rather famous Tucson Artifacts. Which artifact? I will give you a hint the word begins with L.

2. Below the symbol you will see a temple. What are the three letters that appear below it?

3. On the reverse of this artifact are several symbols that are important in understanding both the Travis book and a physical landmark in Arizona. What are those symbols?

4. Variations of this symbol appear on several of the artifacts. What do those variations suggest?

5. This particular artifact suggests that the Tucson Artifacts were created by multiple parties. Why?
A quiz amigo? Are you still trying to play games? I will be more than happy to answer this 'pop quiz' when you answer the questions I have asked of you repeatedly, especially two concerning the library of Oz and who or whom is in your group.

Klondike also wrote

You see Roy if you want to understand the artifacts you will want to understand and answer these questions. If not you are just surfing the internet practicing voodoo history or laying traps.

Answer the questions Roy the duke will be proud of you.


Klondike
What an odd accusation to lay against me, "voodoo history" - am I the one here on a treasure forum, pitching a rather wild story of a whole civilization, directly linked to Atlantis, in the Superstitions? Some might call that projection.

You now are linking Travis Tumlinson's manuscript is also linked to your story? When did this become a part? Do you have that manuscript? I don't, so this does not help me understand it since I do not have a copy.

It is also peculiar that you would think that my simple question as to what you call a symbol on one of the Calalus artifacts, may be "laying traps". You made a rather big deal out of one symbol appearing 14 times, so I presumed you must have some name or meaning for all the symbols on the artifacts, and was curious what you call this example. Nothing more, nothing less. This particular symbol may well be the signature mark of the artist who created the artifacts.

Why do you suppose the language used on the Calalus artifacts is Latin, rather than Greek? Any theory on that?

I tried to point out to you that context is an extremely important factor for any history story that is at odds with the accepted/acknowledged version. With the Calalus artifacts the context should include documentation or at least a known legend of that expedition leaving the Old World in the right time period, or at least close to it. Also other, outlying supporting evidences that a whole group of Byzantine colonists had been present, and we have nothing of that sort. Silverbell road site is an island of artifacts. Worse, not even a single coin dating to the correct time period was found there, nor anywhere near it, nor any other Byzantine artifact or inscription.

Out of curiosity, not laying a 'trap' for you, especially since you refuse to answer a whole string of questions I have tried to ask politely, but what are your views on the Cardiff Giant? Or if you do not have enough information on that example, what about the Vorhee Plates? JUST CURIOUS as to your views on either or both, not anything more or less. Thank you in advance;

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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

Let us be perfectly clear. This dialogue, if it is to happen, will be based on you being the student and we will guide you. If this is not possible then simply quit and pursue well Bigfoot or maybe you and Joe can pursue the lizard men of Roger`s Canyon. Understand they have been kidnapping young women to repopulate their civilization.

The five questions you were asked are important to start you out. Once you answer them and demonstrate you are serious additional questions and insights will be given to point you on the way.

Just to help you understand you are not being sent on a fool`s errand I will point something out to you that may help. We have argued that the trail maps are the real deal and point the way to Horse Mesa. The maps show the same part of the range only from a different perspective. This can be seen from the Topography demonstrated on the Heart Map. It can also be shown from a view of the Trail Map. The Trail Map starts north of the Salt River and works you down Fish Creek Canyon with the first marker being Black Cross Butte. If this is true then the Salt River is clearly indicated. Take a look at the Salt River on a topography map. Some similarities can be made out. Now go back in time and figure out how the Salt River appeared several thousand years ago. There are ways to do this. Once you do that the Salt is a remarkable match to the Trail Map. Perhaps that will help you date the information on the Trail Map better.

Never less if this is too much then there are always the lizard men who need understanding.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Another LONG post amigos so I must beg your indulgence, thank you in advance.

Klondike wrote
Hello Roy,

Let us be perfectly clear. This dialogue, if it is to happen, will be based on you being the student and we will guide you. If this is not possible then simply quit and pursue well Bigfoot or maybe you and Joe can pursue the lizard men of Roger`s Canyon. Understand they have been kidnapping young women to repopulate their civilization.
I see, so your desire to TEACH has so affected your ability to hold a conversation that you cannot do so, unless you are the teacher, and I (or whomever is trying to have a discourse with you) is the "student". 8O :roll: More on this in a moment.

Klondike also wrote

The five questions you were asked are important to start you out. Once you answer them and demonstrate you are serious additional questions and insights will be given to point you on the way.
Heck you refuse to answer three simple questions for me, that anyone whom had seen such a library as you describe could easily answer, and names should be the simplest of all possible questions. How about an exchange, three for five? You answer those three, and I will answer your five? Somehow I don't see that happening, but to continue:

Klondike also wrote

Just to help you understand you are not being sent on a fool`s errand I will point something out to you that may help. We have argued that the trail maps are the real deal and point the way to Horse Mesa. The maps show the same part of the range only from a different perspective. This can be seen from the Topography demonstrated on the Heart Map. It can also be shown from a view of the Trail Map. The Trail Map starts north of the Salt River and works you down Fish Creek Canyon with the first marker being Black Cross Butte. If this is true then the Salt River is clearly indicated. Take a look at the Salt River on a topography map. Some similarities can be made out. Now go back in time and figure out how the Salt River appeared several thousand years ago. There are ways to do this. Once you do that the Salt is a remarkable match to the Trail Map. Perhaps that will help you date the information on the Trail Map better.
Perhaps you do not understand, I am not your student, this is not a class nor a course in any school of learning. I do not believe in the stone maps, and am not about to go a-hiking off to see various landmarks that hundreds or more have already looked at. To be sure, it is mighty pretty country, BUT...? What is the point? Can you get to the point? Have you already followed out your path or trail, to its ending? If so, why all the games? Why not post your findings, and let the world be the judge? Could it be that there are no findings, only things that can be seen in the mind and only in the mind?

Klondike also wrote
Never less if this is too much then there are always the lizard men who need understanding.


Klondike
I am taken aback at your offhand remarks about the Lizard People. Have they done you harm? Are they not entitled, as a species, to do something to help preserve the continuance of their species, even if this means the involuntary assistance of another species, so long as it does them no permanent harm? Perhaps you would be wise to be less flippant in the way you address our scaly friends amigo, for remember, they reside in the very mountains that you are convinced was Oz, and their forbearance alone allowed you to even enter those ancient sanctuaries. Or perhaps you were unaware that you were being watched and monitor-ed? <Cheap pun there> :mrgreen: We won't even address your comments about our hirsute and sizable forest brethren, out of respect.

It is obvious now that you can not answer the basic questions about what language this supposed library is composed of, nor what type of writing system was employed. The fact that you continue to evade the questions and refuse to answer, proves that you do not know the answers. If you are expecting that we will forget about that problem and move on to other aspects of your story line, you are mistaken.

Your story line has certainly evolved and grown since the beginning, for now not only does it include the doubtful Calalus artifacts, but also Circlestone, the Peralta stones, Travis' manuscript which so far is unpublished and unfinished, the Star People, Atlantis, and of course the underground library (or libraries) with mysterious 10,000+ year old writing that you can not tell us what language nor what type of writing it is. Can you see a problem there?

I asked you about two cases of hoax, and again you refuse to answer, which implies that either you do not know about them, or believe they were not hoaxes. What is next to add on to Calalus, will it be Ubar the city so evil it was swallowed by the desert sands, or the giant Roc of Sinbad's voyages? I wonder, how do the Hohokam fit into your version of history? Do you include them or do you convert them into Byzantine colonists to fit the story of Calalus and now Oz?

As you have expressed a desire to TEACH, and including attempting to engage fellow members of a treasure forum as your "students" perhaps you could do just that - teach a course on Oz, Calalus and the stone maps? Have you considered contacting a college or university, to offer such service? There may even be a stipend involved. Your listed study materials should not be impossible to gather up enough copies for class use, so long as the materials were returned after the classes. Not trying to brag or boast but I was honored to have some of my work adopted by several schools, concerning ancient explorers reaching America, so that should prove that they are certainly open to the idea of alternate history, if well supported and with enough documentation. In teaching this class, you would have an audience of ready ears and eyes, eager young minds looking for instruction and guidance. Just your sort of thing, I would think.

If you are unable to have a discussion about history, ancient or otherwise, unless it is on that teacher-student footing, then we have reached the proverbial logjam and will make no progress. I am always interested in any and all evidences of ancient (pre-Columbian) visitors to the Americas from the Old World (east or west) and unfortunately, the Calalus story is not such evidence. There have been other supposed bits of evidence, that on closer scrutiny prove to be modern and/or hoaxes, like the "ancient Hebrew" coins found in Kentucky, which turned out to be 19th century tokens given to children for doing well in school. I do not understand why you have such a professed belief in it, much less the additional stories you have tacked on. Did you know there really IS evidence of ancient Old World visitors to Arizona, found in Arizona? Not the funky lead artifacts of Silverbell road either, and not Byzantine nor Roman. Unfortunately you seem to be so engrossed in this story you keep promoting, that we probably can not discuss the other pieces of evidence that are not related to Calalus in any way.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

Ben is already at the University of Nevada. Thus the teaching thingi.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

As I have written a number of times before, Ben has been following the different LDM Forums for many years. He will take some minor thing we have written and infused it into his ever expanding story. In the process, he is mixing our facts with his fiction blending it all into a more believable tale.

It's really been a masterful bit of chicanery. When I grow up, I want to concoct those same kinds of believable fiction. I was getting close over on Tnet with my little story of finding treasure in the Supe's. As good of a mix of fact and fiction as I will ever attempt.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

The subject matter is the Tucson Artifacts and the library of Oz. Understanding these phenomena is not something you can attack in general terms. You have to know what the relevant questions are to ask and the trails that lead to the truth. Those trails are not obvious nor are they easy to find.

What you do is simply jump around from one data point to another and what is important you simply miss. We answer what we can and nothing more.

What was it the Duke said about quitters. The easiest way to quit is not to acknowledge how little you understand. While the Duke was right about quitters Late was also right that you can lead folks to water but you cannot make them drink.

Good luck to you and Joe with the lizard men. Believe that is a worthwhile quest. Perhaps it will be your vision quest.


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Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe R wrote

Ben is already at the University of Nevada. Thus the teaching thingi.
I think you had mentioned that before, but we are talking with Klondike at the moment, and there are supposed to be several different persons using the same ID (Late49er, Klondike, Starman, et al) which was a piece of information I had hoped that Klondike would share - the names of these people in his group. Otherwise it simply looks like one person using multiple IDs like a game or suffering from multiple personality disorder.

Joe R also wrote
As I have written a number of times before, Ben has been following the different LDM Forums for many years. He will take some minor thing we have written and infused it into his ever expanding story. In the process, he is mixing our facts with his fiction blending it all into a more believable tale.

It's really been a masterful bit of chicanery. When I grow up, I want to concoct those same kinds of believable fiction. I was getting close over on Tnet with my little story of finding treasure in the Supe's. As good of a mix of fact and fiction as I will ever attempt.
I have seen this mixing in progress, and thought your bit of fiction was actually pretty good. You may have missed your calling there.

Klondike wrote
The subject matter is the Tucson Artifacts and the library of Oz. Understanding these phenomena is not something you can attack in general terms. You have to know what the relevant questions are to ask and the trails that lead to the truth. Those trails are not obvious nor are they easy to find.

What you do is simply jump around from one data point to another and what is important you simply miss. We answer what we can and nothing more.

What was it the Duke said about quitters. The easiest way to quit is not to acknowledge how little you understand. While the Duke was right about quitters Late was also right that you can lead folks to water but you cannot make them drink.

Good luck to you and Joe with the lizard men. Believe that is a worthwhile quest. Perhaps it will be your vision quest.
How can you miss the point about the context of the Calalus artifacts being of such importance? If you had anything to support them, as for example a record of such an expedition from the Byzantine empire, it would be a great support and make further investigation into these highly questionable artifacts worthwhile. Otherwise they remain an ISLAND of evidence, that has been studied at length.

Side thing here but quitting? Whom is the one quitting here amigo? From this end it looks like you. Projecting again? You are the one setting rules about how we may have a discussion - "or else".

Do you know about the relic found on Peters mesa? Arizona has a most fascinating history, including ancient history of which only a portion is recorded. I was stunned to learn of the ball courts in the valley (and right up to the very edge of the Superstitions) even to the finding of several of the rubber balls used in that ancient game of Mesoamerican origins. Clearly, the history of the area is far richer and more complex than is found in our history books. But let us not foul that history with false and fictional stories either. Atlantis for instance, is not in the Superstition mountains.

I would suggest that you talk to Ben, perhaps he can arrange for you to teach a class at the university in Nevada on a regular basis? Or failing that, have you as a guest instructor on occasion? By the way, still waiting for the answers to the questions about that library, the names etc. Cat got your tongue?

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Re: Yellow Jackets

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Postscript - Joe - perhaps you have wondered why I have been trying to engage Klondike again after our series of long pauses and little progress in getting at the truth here. That is my main reason. I would like to get at the truth of this matter, WHY is he trying to pitch this story here, what is the goal, who are these other persons supposedly using the same ID and computer?

I don't believe in the Calalus artifacts much less the Oz story and library, the Star People or stone maps. This approach that Klondike has taken, trying to "guide" us to his story line has not worked for several years now. I thought I had mentioned that I no longer live in AZ and am not about to spend the little time I will have in AZ each year, running some pre-assigned trail to look at landmarks but he continues to push that "follow the stone maps trail" idea. I have seen Fish creek canyon and did not impress me as having the slightest evidence of linkage to Calalus or Atlantis for that matter as one example.

But if Klondike could give us his real name (assuming it is a he) and the real names of the other members of this group he keeps referring to, we would have a new angle to look at. Clearly there is no library or he would have instantly been able to answer what the language was and the type of writing, so I don't know why he can not back off that part of his story line.

I think we can safely conclude the discussion, since Klondike et al are proving unable to provide those answers. It has been interesting and at times, fun. I suspect that much of this tale that has been pitched, is imaginary, based in part on the story of Calalus, now linked to Atlantis and Circlestone and quite a few other points that were discussed on the various treasure forums. At this point it would be wrong if Ben does not compose this into a novel.

I wish I had not lost touch with a friend I knew in South Africa, but unfortunately have not heard from him in twenty years or it might be possible to find that "school" where this fictional tale of Oz is supposedly being taught, along with this mysterious museum that Klondike has been unable to even provide the name of. He does not want us checking on any of his "facts" apparently.

It is looking like you may never get reimbursed on those custom T-shirts. Maybe those names can be scraped off, and the shirts used by someone? I very much doubt that Klondike will show up at the rendezvous, which is really his loss.

I hope all is well with you and yours, you old sourdough Joe! :mrgreen: I look forward to seeing you in October, if we can work it out (the dogs are an issue).
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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