Yellow Jackets

FRIENDLY, general interest, non LDM discussions with other forum members.
Post Reply
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike - glad that you still keep tabs, even if only sporadically.

Cibola is quite a legend in itself; seven cities, seven temples, seven caves of Chicomoztoc? Unwritten history is a fascinating world unto itself. Do you think Coronado's capture of the seven pueblos was the real Cibola?

I have to agree with Joe here - why not publish? You have posted enough information to fill a book, and this would get the history out to the public, and let them judge for themselves. The people who visit the treasure forums are pretty much mostly treasure hunters (myself included) and while most have a deep interest in history, this is a tiny fraction of the public.

Good luck and good hunting to everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And to Ben, I hope you will compile the story you have posted, into a book. It could easily become a best seller.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Oroblanco wrote:Klondike - glad that you still keep tabs, even if only sporadically.

Cibola is quite a legend in itself; seven cities, seven temples, seven caves of Chicomoztoc? Unwritten history is a fascinating world unto itself. Do you think Coronado's capture of the seven pueblos was the real Cibola?

I have to agree with Joe here - why not publish? You have posted enough information to fill a book, and this would get the history out to the public, and let them judge for themselves. The people who visit the treasure forums are pretty much mostly treasure hunters (myself included) and while most have a deep interest in history, this is a tiny fraction of the public.

Good luck and good hunting to everyone reading this, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. And to Ben, I hope you will compile the story you have posted, into a book. It could easily become a best seller.
Oroblanco
Roy,

Either Ben is telling us a true story, or it's been a very long wind-up for a book. As I always have, I lean towards the long wind-up, or the imaginative musings of a bored intellectual/academic.

Take care,

Joe
klondike
Part Timer
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Joe, Hello Roy,

Oz is about what you have not seen not what you have.

It is about what has always, well for at least 10000 years, has been in Fish Creek Canyon. Roy when you walked right by Oz we were there.

it is about what is high up on the east side of West Boulder Canyon. Joe you made it there. Further than anyone else. The ancients that preceded you there completed the journey you started.

"This business about the Maps is interesting. Folks still going round and round with who did it and why. Maybe the place to start is the trail systems that are reflected on the Maps. The main trail is over 10000 years old, the rest is just graffiti".

"Finally he had found an ancient trail which climbed the mountain at a angle....WE never put in a more interesting day on any Dutchman hunt". page 168-169. "The Lost Dutchman Mine", Sims Ely.

Many have walked this trail, most never knew they were ever on it. The Way is this. A trail that many take but few find. Will you find it?

And the knowledge in the library. One should be careful about what you want, you very well may find it. The world will never be the same.

More to follow.

May the Stars keep you safe.

Klondike
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Hi Klondike;
The only other people I saw were below the bridge on Fish creek, actually out of the canyon itself, unless you were up on top of the cliffs. If you had already searched that area, and knew that mister Capen was not there, why did you not mention it to anyone? I could have spent the time and energy looking elsewhere.

Well this has certainly been a long wind-up for the pitch, still think you should compile it into a book, people will surely buy it. Ancient libraries are occasionally found, like the one at Herculaneum, however those are horribly burned to carbon. If the library of Oz is intact, I can't see any reason not to make it public. What more harm can an ancient book do, than say the gospel of Judas, which was once thought to be too dangerous for the public or the Dead Sea scrolls. The fact that you have not posted even a single photo of one book, scroll or codex suggests that you have none. You have not even answered the question about what kind of writing is in them - is it Latin, or Greek or Aramaic or Egyptian or Mayan or what language were they using 10,000 years ago? What type of writing is it, cuneiform, hieroglyphics, alphabetic, ideograms, or something else, and what type is it exactly?

Yes indeed it is wise to be careful what you wish for, as you just might get it. I still think you could put this in book form, and find a ready audience.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Oroblanco wrote:Hi Klondike;
The only other people I saw were below the bridge on Fish creek, actually out of the canyon itself, unless you were up on top of the cliffs. If you had already searched that area, and knew that mister Capen was not there, why did you not mention it to anyone? I could have spent the time and energy looking elsewhere.

Well this has certainly been a long wind-up for the pitch, still think you should compile it into a book, people will surely buy it. Ancient libraries are occasionally found, like the one at Herculaneum, however those are horribly burned to carbon. If the library of Oz is intact, I can't see any reason not to make it public. What more harm can an ancient book do, than say the gospel of Judas, which was once thought to be too dangerous for the public or the Dead Sea scrolls. The fact that you have not posted even a single photo of one book, scroll or codex suggests that you have none. You have not even answered the question about what kind of writing is in them - is it Latin, or Greek or Aramaic or Egyptian or Mayan or what language were they using 10,000 years ago? What type of writing is it, cuneiform, hieroglyphics, alphabetic, ideograms, or something else, and what type is it exactly?

Yes indeed it is wise to be careful what you wish for, as you just might get it. I still think you could put this in book form, and find a ready audience.
Oroblanco
Roy,

Great question......What language, what written language? I believe I have broached that question before. Received the same answer I believe you will receive...........

Think Ben may have painted himself into a corner there, but he will definitely find a way out. The man is brilliant.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Hi Joe - I am expecting the answers will be that the language, will be Atlantean, and the script type is Aztlan sacred glyphs. The problem there is that we have some hint as to what the Atlantean language really was, or was directly related to, and it very likely will be possible to read any Atlantean writing based on that identity. <Language family> I am waiting to see which language Ben says those books are written in, and what kind of writing it is. If he refuses to answer then I have my answer too, that this library does not really exist.

I hope you and Carolyn,< and to Ben too if he is reading this>, are having a great holiday weekend.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
klondike
Part Timer
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

Someone tells you that you walked right by the most important historical site in the world and you have no response other than discussing why you were there and telling us that all depends on the answer of one question. Wow.

It seems you are on the same trail you were on when this was posted on 08/30/2014:

Roy,
In reading your efforts several things step out to illustrate my concern. First you have not acquainted yourself with the most important work regarding the Tucson Artifacts. That is the Thomas Bent work, “The Tucson Artifacts”. This work is a must for any serious historical effort to understand the discovery of the artifacts and the events surrounding the discovery. Your failure to do so represents a serious error in historical methodology. Next you tell us you have not seen the artifacts and therefore have not in person examined them for yourself. This is another serious error because your stance prevents you from a direct contact with the main historical text regarding Calalus. Simply put I estimate that not over 20% of what is going on with the artifacts has ever been understand. Who knows maybe you would be the individual who could uncover things that others have missed. Additionally you have indicated an aversion to getting your hands dirty. The simple fact is that without spending the time searching for the very remains you contend are not there you are simply ensuring that perhaps things will not be found. At least by you. And last by not engaging the artifacts and their history you fall back on a history that the Tucson Artifacts bring into question. You then use this history to attack the artifacts. Is this real history? No.

An authentic historical effort by you would involve sometimes the simplest things and that begins by recognizing the importance of the correct questions. For example a historian would not be so concerned with the fact that you were in Fish Creek Canyon but would try to understand why we were there. Also why are these revelations being made now, and does this suggest what may come.

In addition if you would take the time to examining artifact 13, as I suggested, you would find other things that I did not mention that are very important to understand what has transpired with the artifacts. For example when Covey examined artifact 13 he made a remarkable observation. What is that observation and why is it important? What does it tell us?

Also an authentic historical effort requires one not to take steps that alienates and shuts down sources. In your comments you have indicated if the history is true then folks need to go to prison. If the story is fiction then we are dealing with a Nazi fairy tale. Do you really believe this is the type of thing to tell folks who might share more with you regarding the most important historical discovery the world has seen?

Roy,

The real question is why would we share anything? That question is truly important and we may or may not answer it shortly.

The language of Atlantis. It is beautiful. Understanding it is a whole different matter. Reverse engineering it from what followed is impossible from what I have been told by those qualified in these things. Imagine you can start with this: O. Their symbol for well we told you that already. If I remember correctly you did not believe our answers so why go further?

Klondike
klondike
Part Timer
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

Perhaps you should ask one simple question and only one question. What is it we want? The answer might just astound you.

Klondike
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Klonkide - I see that you have avoided answering the simple question. I can assure you that the Atlantian language would be recognized today as directly related to a language that is easy to read, and would not be too difficult to translate. Never heard this particular language family referred to as 'beautiful' however.

My handling the artifacts would not provide any stamp of approval whatsoever. If I were to swear to the world that they are real, it would carry the same weight as if no one did. The story you wove around it, complete with illegal smuggling and theft of antiquities, if true would result in prison time which is one of the reasons I have suspected that you were simply weaving a tale. There is a statute of limitations on such things however so if it has been long enough, there is no danger of prosecution.

You really do not know me, to think that I don't like to get my hands dirty. It also surprises me that a search for a missing man, would be insignificant in importance to you. There are some evidences of an ancient Indian presence in Fish creek canyon, not that much as far as I can see and most probably Hohokam or possibly Sinagua. I have seen far more evidence (pottery sherds, walls etc) in the Sierra Anchas or even on the west side of Four Peaks. The pottery sherds are identical too. But since you say you were there, you surely must have known about Jesse Capen's Jeep location being so close to that canyon, and that the search for him had not yet gone over it - did you bother to look for him while you were there?

You find no problem that the lead alloy the Tucson artifacts are made of, has antimony, in the same percentage as found in car battery plates of the 1920s? Lead does not occur in nature with antimony, so that had to have been added to make that alloy. Do you know of any ancient Roman or Byzantine relic made of a lead alloy that contains antimony?

By the way you are again twisting what I said, for I did not say your tale is a Nazi fairy tale. I pointed out that this same kind of thing was done by the Nazis to tie in Atlantis with their super race theories. The fact that you have implied this "knowledge" is only for certain people, is rather an echo of the 'chosen' people. The Greeks did not say that the Atlantians were superior physically, just that they were virtuous and righteous but fell away from that into aggression and conquest.

So you say the language used in the books of the library of Oz is Atlantian. What language is most closely related to it? What is the writing type, is it alphabetic, hieroglyphic or what? An internet search will not turn up the answer, but if you have seen such writing these questions are easy.

I still think you should put your story into a book. There is a huge market for this kind of thing. Trying to sell the story to treasure hunters is not going to prove very profitable, nor will it add credence to your theory. Perhaps you are unaware of it, but just by being a treasure hunter, automatically puts a stamp of bias against anything that treasure hunter might say as probably biased, based on a greedy over-optimistic outlook and everyone knows how all treasure hunters are great liars. This is why I said that even if we were to agree wholeheartedly, and shout it to the world, it would not only not help you, it might hurt your credence in the view of the general populace. However you have certainly enough material for a book, with Bent and Covey for source/backing to lend some authentication. Lots of people would eat it up like candy.

I look forward to the day when you announce the book is available for sale.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

klondike wrote:Hello Roy,

Someone tells you that you walked right by the most important historical site in the world and you have no response other than discussing why you were there and telling us that all depends on the answer of one question. Wow.

It seems you are on the same trail you were on when this was posted on 08/30/2014:

Roy,
In reading your efforts several things step out to illustrate my concern. First you have not acquainted yourself with the most important work regarding the Tucson Artifacts. That is the Thomas Bent work, “The Tucson Artifacts”. This work is a must for any serious historical effort to understand the discovery of the artifacts and the events surrounding the discovery. Your failure to do so represents a serious error in historical methodology. Next you tell us you have not seen the artifacts and therefore have not in person examined them for yourself. This is another serious error because your stance prevents you from a direct contact with the main historical text regarding Calalus. Simply put I estimate that not over 20% of what is going on with the artifacts has ever been understand. Who knows maybe you would be the individual who could uncover things that others have missed. Additionally you have indicated an aversion to getting your hands dirty. The simple fact is that without spending the time searching for the very remains you contend are not there you are simply ensuring that perhaps things will not be found. At least by you. And last by not engaging the artifacts and their history you fall back on a history that the Tucson Artifacts bring into question. You then use this history to attack the artifacts. Is this real history? No.

An authentic historical effort by you would involve sometimes the simplest things and that begins by recognizing the importance of the correct questions. For example a historian would not be so concerned with the fact that you were in Fish Creek Canyon but would try to understand why we were there. Also why are these revelations being made now, and does this suggest what may come.

In addition if you would take the time to examining artifact 13, as I suggested, you would find other things that I did not mention that are very important to understand what has transpired with the artifacts. For example when Covey examined artifact 13 he made a remarkable observation. What is that observation and why is it important? What does it tell us?

Also an authentic historical effort requires one not to take steps that alienates and shuts down sources. In your comments you have indicated if the history is true then folks need to go to prison. If the story is fiction then we are dealing with a Nazi fairy tale. Do you really believe this is the type of thing to tell folks who might share more with you regarding the most important historical discovery the world has seen?

Roy,

The real question is why would we share anything? That question is truly important and we may or may not answer it shortly.

The language of Atlantis. It is beautiful. Understanding it is a whole different matter. Reverse engineering it from what followed is impossible from what I have been told by those qualified in these things. Imagine you can start with this: O. Their symbol for well we told you that already. If I remember correctly you did not believe our answers so why go further?

Klondike
Ben,

I have and have read the Bent Manuscript a number of times. I have also seen the artifacts and photographed and touched them.

I still do not believe any of the fantasy that has been created around them.

The simple answer to this bogus mystery is.......boredom. I do hope our collective questioning has relieved some of boredom and kept you.....somewhat, on your toes.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
klondike
Part Timer
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Joe,

Glad to know you have done the basic research someone needs to do to have an intelligent conversation regarding the artifacts. Does that relieve Roy of the same obligation?

If it does not perhaps you can share your library with him.

Hello Roy,

If your knowledge of law is on par with your knowledge of the Tucson Artifacts, lets just say I would not take it to the bank. Instead we will share somethings and somethings we will not. If that is a problem ok.

You see Roy you just keep recycling the same old arguments without well learning things that would help you move deeper into the subject matter.

For example you state:

"You find no problem that the lead alloy the Tucson artifacts are made of, has antimony, in the same percentage as found in car battery plates of the 1920s? Lead does not occur in nature with antimony, so that had to have been added to make that alloy. Do you know of any ancient Roman or Byzantine relic made of a lead alloy that contains antimony?"

Yes I do the Tucson Artifacts.

If you read the Bent work and the chemical analysis included you would see your argument is well nonsence. See analysis performed by Pellegrin and Sons, in 1925. Pay particular attention to the comments regarding the Starr and Old Padres Mine. Lead and Antimony together, yes. Just to help see the following Covey comments:

"He for instance threw out a imprecise allusion to the artifacts as similar to common type-metal unlike the crude local lead, when he himself had reported in January, 1926 that the artifact metal, showing traces of tin, gold, silver, and copper, bore the character of ores mined in the Tucson mountains. Two years before his final report, the Tucson form of assayers, A.L. Pellegrin & Son, had proved Cummings’ earlier contention; the artifacts metal was identical to ores from local mines; type metal has 1 1/2 to three times the antimony content of the artifacts; also, type metal has no traces of gold or silver at all".

Also if you read the Bent work you would find that one artifact was found beneath a 50 year old tree. Which pretty much puts to end your concern about car battery plates of the 1920`s. See the referenced comments by Hardaker listed below:

"An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense".

Since we are giving opinions it seems to me that you and Joe simply have not done the hard work that is necessary to understand the artifacts or the library of Oz. And really you refuse to do so. The analysis that was presented on another website connecting the artifacts and the library of Oz and the ancients was never even commented on by you or Joe.

What you want to do is simply put to condemn something you do not understand and are unwilling to learn. You cannot even ask one simple question I presented.

Gentlemen you are not practicing History you are practicing fiction.


Klondike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

[Also if you read the Bent work you would find that one artifact was found beneath a 50 year old tree. Which pretty much puts to end your concern about car battery plates of the 1920`s. See the referenced comments by Hardaker listed below:

"An artifact found under a 50-year old Mesquite tree provides a maximum date of ca. 1874. Also, the artifacts were scattered over a 2500-foot area on an eroding terrace, and then covered up all together, buried between three to six feet below the modern surface. There was absolutely no evidence of pits dug to plant the pieces under the surface; this is verified in the photographs and by multiple professional accounts during the discoveries, including comments by Dr. Neil Judd who personally excavated two of the pieces; Judd was a nephew of UAz’s Dr. Byron Cummings, and a Smithsonian archaeologist working at Chaco Canyon. To do all that earthmoving, an army begins to make sense".]

Nearly all of the artifacts were found from the side of a trench that was dug in the earth at the site at a much earlier date. There was some indication that some of the artifacts were placed/inserted into the hollowed out side of the trench.

The caliche is the dead giveaway for me. The artifacts were found in the caliche at widely differing depths. The caliche is over 10,000 years old, as I recall.

I have done all the research that I feel the story is worth. You are the one who has been working like crazy to convince us that the whole thing is not pure fantasy. As Roy has asked, what language is the library of Oz written in? You have danced around the answer.

You don't know what Roy has or how much he has researched the subject. Instead of sneering at our efforts, just end it by providing one ounce of PROOF. No need to give away the store, just a nibble at the edges. You haven't and can't because all you have is an interesting story.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

EDIT - I see that Joe has also replied to this, and I must agree. Klondike, PLEASE provide some proof that library is real.

Klondike wrote
<snip>
What you want to do is simply put to condemn something you do not understand and are unwilling to learn. You cannot even ask one simple question I presented.

Gentlemen you are not practicing History you are practicing fiction.
Are you looking in the mirror while typing that last part amigo? :roll:

Are you dead certain that I do not have Bent's manuscript, nor ever read it? :wink:

I guess I have my answer as to what the writing is in the books of that library of Oz.

Why is it so important for you to convince Joe or me that the story of Calalus is real, and the additional story you have made public with the library of Oz? Do you think that either or both of us, represent the most stalwart disbelievers? I can assure you that is far from the case.

For an example, I am 100% convinced, that Carthaginians visited America in the BC period. The evidence is thin indeed, no library like Oz nor a site with a collection of unusual artifacts. But there is a scattering of artifacts over a dozen states and four countries, including coins, pottery, carved inscriptions, a metal urn, (that particular item found by an archaeological dig, proving that even the archies find such things once in a while) and several actual shipwrecks.

To further support it, we find ancient records of such voyages in Aristotle, Plutarch, Diodorus, even Pliny and Aelian have some hints. So we know something about the Carthaginian explorers, despite the fact that when Carthage was destroyed, all of her libraries were burned or given to her enemies, because her enemies had some knowledge that Carthage was sending out expeditions into the Atlantic ocean and thus recorded it, even if imperfectly.

Even more circumstantial evidence exists too - geographical place names tend to outlast the people who named them, so there is a city in Mexico that has the full name of one of the two named Carthaginian explorers known to have voyaged in the Atlantic, Himilco, in the city of Xochimilco. Even a US state has a name that could be Punic, Alaska, which coincidentally means 'the great land' according to the natives, and Al Asqa in Punic means the exact same thing. Coincidences?

Carthage even supposedly attempted to plant a colony in America too, but this was later withdrawn by order of their Senate, so it is possible that someone may find that site some day where ancient Carthaginians tried to found a town or city. It may even have been found but not recognized.

This is why I keep pressing you for SUPPORTING evidence for Calalus and your library of Oz. There really were ancient voyagers who came to America. In some cases it is a fairly good case, even if circumstantial. With Calalus we have only those peculiar lead artifacts, not even a piece of Roman/Byzantine pottery found near them to support it. Don't you think that a whole ARMY of men, would have had more than some lead artifacts with them? Would you not expect that SOME kind of written record from the Old World would refer to a whole colony sailing off to the New World? The Byzantines certainly kept records and did not get destroyed in the seventh century AD. If there were such a colony making an exodus, why were no other ships sent off to try to contact them, if for no other reason than to determine if they had survived? The Norse sent out expeditions to check on Vinland and Greenland, the English did it when they lost touch with the Roanoke colony for several years due to the war with Spain, and so forth. Yet there is no record of any following expedition to Calalus either.

Instead, you keep going to attack me personally, or Joe. You don't seem to realize that story you told, included acts of theft of antiquities and smuggling which are felonies. If you think I am wrong about that, I suggest you read over this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_stelae#Looting

I am not trying to threaten you or frighten you with that, just pointing out that your story includes some felonious behavior. I still do not see the library mentioned in the Calalus artifacts inscriptions either, so have to conclude that is your addition to the story on them.

The fact that you will not or can not even tell us what kind of writing is on the books or scrolls or tablets in that library, certainly does not convince me that it must be real.

Your story is a good one, and I am sure you will find plenty of believers. If you doubt that, take a look on Treasurenet and you will see several supporters of Calalus as a true story.

Sorry but I don't buy it. Professor Covey supported them as genuine, and Covey is among the few academics who believe that pre-Columbian crossings of the oceans happened. So since you have supporters, including academics, why does it seem to bother you so much that two treasure hunters don't?

If you have not put your story into a book form, I hope you will. After all he who laughs last, laughs best, and I would like to see your story proven true. Despite your repeated attacks on me (and Joe) I am a supporter of pre-Columbian voyagers and limited contact, but only where there is at least a circumstantial case with supporting evidence. I may have mentioned this before but the famous Nez Perce chief Joseph had in his possession a family heirloom, a clay tablet with ancient cuneiform writing on it. He stated that it has been in their possession for a very long time. The tablet was genuine and ancient, no one contested it, yet has anyone proposed a story of ancient Babylonians voyaging to America? No, nor is there any record of such a voyage. How did such an artifact find its way to the Amerindians of the mountain northwest? No one knows - but it is not necessary that a Babylonian handed it to a Nez Perce, it could have been cast ashore from a shipwreck with no survivors, or passed via trade over thousands of miles.

On the other side, there are plenty of fakes and mistakes in the world of pre-Columbian artifacts too, like the supposed ancient Hebrew coins found in Kentucky. They were judged by an Israeli expert to be 1800s replicas which were given to children for getting good grades. Others were found out more quickly like the Cardiff giant, a fake made to fool the academics for the amusement of a farmer. Surely you do not contend that large stone statue is a real ancient representation of Adonis with Phoenician writing on the base. You strike me as a very intelligent, probably well educated man - I am just a simple country boy with a HS education and a few college courses that have nothing to do with this topic. Put your story into book form, your results will surely be a pleasant surprise. After all, isn't that what you want, for people to believe in Calalus and the library of Oz? Not that many people read the treasure hunter forums, and worse, most of the people reading and posting in them are treasure hunters, and you know the reputation treasure hunters have in society as wild-eyed, deluded, obsessed, not too bright to put it mildly, and/or fools, as well as rivalling fishermen for being great liars. Do you think that convincing some treasure hunters Calalus is real, will bolster your case? 8O

To anyone reading this long debate, good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

As I believe I have mentioned before, in Roy, you have found a worthy historian to debate.

Good luck, I believe you will need it.

Joe Ribaudo
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Cubfan64 »

Ok, I'll ask it then...

What is it you want?

You know how to get in contact with me if you would like - it would be nice to hear from you again as it's been quite awhile.
klondike
Part Timer
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Paul,

I left you a pm. I really would have enjoyed teaching that class.

Hello Joe, Hello Roy,

I have enjoyed our discussion and wish both of you a pleasant summer. I have places to go, people to see, and things to do.


Klondike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

klondike wrote:Hello Paul,

I left you a pm. I really would have enjoyed teaching that class.

Hello Joe, Hello Roy,

I have enjoyed our discussion and wish both of you a pleasant summer. I have places to go, people to see, and things to do.


Klondike
Klondike,

Maybe Ben can take up the slack. :lol:

Joe Ribaudo
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

klondike wrote:Hello Paul,

I left you a pm. I really would have enjoyed teaching that class.

Hello Joe, Hello Roy,

I have enjoyed our discussion and wish both of you a pleasant summer. I have places to go, people to see, and things to do.


Klondike
More games amigo? Have a great summer yourself, I too have promises to keep and miles to go before I sleep. I do manage to find time to get online however, except when I have to stay at the ranch where there is no internet or cell coverage.

Joe - thank you for those very kind words you posted recently, however undeserved. It looks like we have the same pattern (again) when the tough questions arise, the tough get going! (Away!) 8O :mrgreen:

I have wondered what the real agenda is behind this story, which started out very different from what it ended up. I could not remember but on looking it up, it was some letters and papers of Sims Ely, which were being considered to offer to a museum. Did anything ever come of that? Do you recall the early discussion? I notice that a lot of posts have vanished, or at least it seems like I can remember quite a few more posts back there (2005-8) than are there now which is too bad, because memory can get it wrong. Late 49er seems to have started things off with some deception, which never helps build confidence in a conversation.

If he or they are reading this, I was not being sarcastic or funny when I said I hope this is a lead-in for a book to come out. Otherwise the whole thing looks more like a fun game being played at our expense for someone's amusement. :roll:

Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

I remember it quite well as I was the one that Late chose to, initially tell his story to. I put him in touch with David Leach who worked for the museum at the time. I believe he got George Johnson involved and emails were exchanged.

Eventually, I asked him to send me a copy of Ely's signature, which he agreed to do. Like many other things, it never came. They claimed to have letters and a signed first edition of the Ely book.

Ben came on the scene and said the museum showed no interest in what they had, which was a bald faced lie, as I had the emails that were exchanged. I still have them.

All attempts to make face to face contact with Ben were promised but never delivered, as far as I know. It remains a long standing game.

Good luck on drawing out anything from the Ben Davis collective group.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe - thanks, though I wish that if there really were some of Sims Ely's papers, they could have been donated to the SMHS.

Sometimes I am a bit slow on the draw, I should have asked Klondike what I had with me if they saw me hiking up Fish creek. I did not see a soul or even a recent track after passing from the bridge up. The only other people I saw were camped down on the flat below the bridge. If that is the place they are referring to as the location of Oz, it would be pretty easy to check it out. But I did not think to ask, for I did have something that would be easy to see and tell if someone really did see me. It was not a metal detector. One thing for sure, if ever I want to hike that canyon again, it will be DOWN the canyon and not up. Dang near broke my neck several times there.

Perhaps we could talk Ben and/or his friends to come to the rendezvous this October? Ben if you are reading this, would you give it a consideration? A lot of really nice people to meet and shake hands, and the standing rule is the hatchets are left outside the camp gates.

Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

Ben has been invited to a Rendezvous, including the first one. He ordered a number of T-Shirts with the names of those who were going to come with him. He canceled at the last moment and I was stuck with the shirts.

As you have said, I'm sure he would still be welcomed.

Take care,

Joe
User avatar
Oroblanco
Part Timer
Posts: 418
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:31 pm
Location: Black Hills SD
Contact:

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Oroblanco »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Roy,

Ben has been invited to a Rendezvous, including the first one. He ordered a number of T-Shirts with the names of those who were going to come with him. He canceled at the last moment and I was stuck with the shirts.

As you have said, I'm sure he would still be welcomed.

Take care,

Joe
I remember you telling me of this deal. I just thought I would ask one last time, for we all have a limited number of years to be alive, there are not an endless number of chances to get together to meet and swap tales around the campfire. If he thinks it is some kind of a 'trap' he is very much mistaken.

I am reminded of an incident I had with a professor at a major university whom contacted me on Desert USA a few decades ago, as he wanted a good sized box of a mix of red and black lava rocks, the size of your fist or larger to put in his garden. He offered to refund what ever it would cost me to ship it, so I sent him a large box of the rocks, and it cost me $54 in shipping because it was heavy and he wanted it ASAP. He then refused to refund the cost, and then soon after, refused to answer letters or calls. I thought about contacting his university about it but figured it was a good lesson for me. See what you can learn from a university professor? How to avoid getting cheated! :lol: As we still hear from Ben occasionally, perhaps he still intends to make good on the shirts, so I am not going to say it is the same thing. Yet.

I hope all is well with you folks, don't forget to give Smoky an extra treat for no reason at all. I don't expect we will hear from Klondike, Late49er, Starman et al for some time.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Cubfan64
Expert
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:20 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Cubfan64 »

klondike wrote:Hello Paul,

I left you a pm. I really would have enjoyed teaching that class.

Hello Joe, Hello Roy,

I have enjoyed our discussion and wish both of you a pleasant summer. I have places to go, people to see, and things to do.


Klondike
pm sent
klondike
Part Timer
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2006 8:48 am

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by klondike »

Hello Paul,

Had a moment and wanted to catch up a bit. Hope things are well with you and yours. It is odd to consider how things can change so quickly and yet sometimes not change at all. Sometimes everything revolves around a lost opportunity but there is always another day. Believe that line came from Gone With the Wind. Somehow that movie reflect a lot more of history than simply the war of northern aggression. A number of our people served in the confederacy. In fact several rather important folks were in the Arizona theater, particularly Tucson.

Speaking of Tucson. I always wondered why folks never put together the fact the trail maps were always a bit and parcel of the Tucson Artifacts. The Latin Heart being the lynch pin.

Mr. Ribaudo and Roy,

Having a dialogue with you gentlemen is so like being in a bad western movie. You can always count on the bad guys to put lead(not the Tucson Artifacts), in your back when you exit the saloon. Seems if you can`t deal with the discussion at hand simply shoot them in the back as they head out for the summer.

Since t-shirts and other nonsense is all you can deal with so be it. The great t-shirt scandal occurred when we could not attend the first festival in the desert because of the death of two of our associates. Mr. Ribaudo was made aware of this and an offer was made to pay for the t-shirts but he never followed through with the shirts or sent us a bill. The offer still holds but I may have to use a South African bank.

I believe this was about the same time Mr. Ribaudo was trying to buy artifacts from the Superstitions from us. Needless to say we turned his offer down.

As far as face to face contact go Joe was invited to meet folks at a dig in Eldorado Canyon but as he says the offer was a day late and a dollar short.

The rest of the comments are simply nonsense and why waste time simply going over the craziness of the past.

Simply put Oz was and still is the most important historical site in the world. Nothing here changes that. In a way that is wrong. You had a chance to change that if you had asked one simple question in and honorable and respectful manner. For about 24 hours the gate was open.


Klondike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Re: Yellow Jackets

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

Save your fairy tails for folks like NP or Matthew. They have been telling tall tails for so long they can no longer recognize the truth......if it hits them in the face.

You have my offer somewhat screwed up, but you know that.

When you go out the door shooting, you might expect to find some lead following your departure.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
Post Reply