CALALUS

Non LDM treaure hunting and Old West history.
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pippinwhitepaws
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Re: CALALUS

Post by pippinwhitepaws » Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:48 pm

mind if i pay attention?

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wwjohnson
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Re: CALALUS

Post by wwjohnson » Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:51 pm

klondike,

Tom Glover in his book The Golden Dream Part 1, states on page 281, the Jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) and Superstition Mountains ores are Mesothermic. While classifying the Goldfield Arizona ores from the Mammoth, Black Queen, Bulldog and Wasp mines as being Endothermic.

This is a very confusing and misleading statement.

Endothermic is not a type of gold ore vein deposit, it is the process or reaction in which a system absorbes energy from it's surroundings in the form of heat.

Both Mesothermal and Epithermal as well as Hypothermal gold ore vein deposits are Endothermic. They are all Endothermic. They all were formed by reaction to absorbing energy from it's surroundings in the form of heat so how can a Mesothermic deposit be different from Endothermic ?

And one thing I really don't understand is how Mr. Glover determined some of the ores to be Mesothermic ? How did he arrive at that conclusion ? Given the SED testing he did and the detailed explanation of the tests, it is impossible to determine Mesothermic from Epithermal from Hypothermal.

I fully believe Mr. Glover found very distinct differences in the ores he tested but do not believe he came close to acurately classifying the types of deposits and used a very generic method for determining the formation of the different ore bodies.

Only one ore was tested that Mr. Glover believed could have come from the same deposit as the jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) and that was the ore Mr. Glover called, Camp ore.

On page 281 Mr. Glover writes: " The composition of these ores suggested that the Camp Ore could have come from the SAME SOURCE as the Jewelry Ore (Waltz's Ore).

The "SAME SOURCE".

In an independant analysis done seperate from Mr. Glover's ore analysis, the Camp Ore was found to be Epithermal in composition.

It should be noted the camp ore samples were the only ore samples Mr. Glover tested where he was given full permission to do any testing on that ore including any destructive testing he wished to do. All the other samples were either on loan or had the caviat they be returned or not destroyed in the testing.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:40 pm

Hola amigos,
This got to be an extremely long reply, out of necessity in order to address the many points covered. I am sorry for my inability to condense these replies, and ask your indulgence. I will make every effort to keep things more brief in future.
Ben wrote
Is this statement true why yes it is in some instances. Is it true in every instance let`s see. Robert Boyle the famous Canadian Geologist indicated in his work "Gold", (1979 page 540), "has(Boyle) advocated a multiple hypotheses for the origin of placer gold...These considerations suggest that the gold of placers is of bother detrital and chemical origin...A recent and importent discovery concerning the origin of gold nuggets has been made by Watterson, Nishi, And Botinelly. They have observed that the spores of Bacillus cereus precipitate gold and that laboratory grown gold crystals around these spores and indistingushable from dodecacathedral gold crystals found in nature. There is a centuries-old tradition among placer miners that gold "grows" in placers. There is probably much truth in the adage".


I put "detrital" in bold type as it is another example of gold eroded out of a host rock. The theory of bacterial genesis for ore deposits is not accepted by all geologists, and while interesting is more of a curiosity than a useful tool for finding ore deposits; a good point being that bacterially-accumulated gold forms crystal structures, and we know that crystalline gold is quite rare in nature. I don't know of any placer deposits that have been classed as having been created via biological actions rather than erosion of host lodes. Wiki has this very good explanation of placers, quote
Placer deposits are sourced from pre-existing gold deposits and are secondary deposits. Placer deposits are formed by alluvial processes within rivers, streams and on beaches. Placer gold deposits form via gravity, with the density of gold causing it to sink into trap sites within the river bed, or where water velocity drops, such as bends in rivers and behind boulders. Often placer deposits are found within sedimentary rocks and can be billions of years old, for instance the Witwatersrand deposits in South Africa. Sedimentary placer deposits are known as 'leads' or 'deep leads'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ore_genesis#Gold

Perhaps there is some misunderstanding here of what the bacterio-genesis theory of gold ore depositation is saying; the theory is that it is bacteria which is precipitating the gold out of the extremely hot aqueous solution into the host rock, not that it is forming placer deposits. Placer deposits would be highly altered by the introduction of the extremely hot aqueous solutions which carry gold in a dissolved state, to say nothing of the extreme pressures. They would not be placers when we find them but something quite different.

Ben also wrote
What I am interested in is what do you believe the Goldfield Deposit tells us about possible Gold Deposits in the Superstitions?


What I get from it is the possibility of similar deposit(s) existing in a similar geology. He is providing proof that the US Forest Service official stance of the Superstitions Wilderness area as being minerallogically barren is false.

Ben also wrote
And why would someone use an epithermal deposit as a major discussion point if the argument is that the jewelry ore comes from a mesothermal deposit?


As proof that economically viable gold deposits have been found in similar geologic settings. Nowhere does Dr Glover state that he is proposing the LDM is an identical type of deposit. Dr Glover mentioned several other gold deposits in volcanic districts such as the El Indio in Chile as being similar. In my own 'backyard' there is a geologically similar area known as the Bear Lodge district (with the famous volcanic plug Devils Tower) and we find gold deposits including a queer example of gold in anthracite coal, <Cambria> believed to be the result of a placer laid on top of the coal which then became mixed into it by the pressure of overlying deposits. I would not propose that we then should then think of the LDM as a coal vein.

Side note but I believe that Dr Glover is a fellow member here on LDGM; perhaps we should invite him to join the discussion? Just a thought, as I do not presume to be able to speak for what exact meanings Dr Glover was intending to present.

Ben also wrote
. All I ask of you is that you accept the possibilty we are dealing with a epithemal deposit. A epithemal deposit with high quartz crystallization temperatures.


Is it possible that the LDM is an epithermal deposit? Yes it is possible, just that the existing specimens are not of that class which points to a different type of deposit. An epithermal deposit with high crystallization temperatures would by definition not be epithermal at least by the system used by many geologists. I am certainly open to discuss the subject of an epithermal gold deposit in the Superstitions as a real possibility, as the known silver mines were of this class if memory serves (except the Silver King of course). I just have strong doubts that the LDM is of this class. There certainly could be epithermal gold deposits in the Superstitions, even in the Wilderness area.

Ben also wrote
A discussion of Starman and Joe`s monuments will offer no proof, it will only point to a way. Such a discussion will lead to the central mystery of Oz and the realization that the crystal deposit I have discussed is only one of two discovered by the ancients. The second deposit is for a lack of better word lost.

That deposit is incredibly dangerous.

If you would like to proceed with such a discussion please advise.


If such a discussion will lead to the central mystery as you term it, then by all means let us proceed. You mention the 'crystal deposit' and describe it as incredibly dangerous; by dangerous do you mean that it is radioactive? Thank you in advance,

Pippinwhitepaws wrote ]quote]mind if i pay attention?[/quote]

I hope you will decide to join in, I think discussions are always enriched by having participation of more brains.

Joe R wrote
That piece of ore is from Rich Hill here in Arizona. The nuggets that are found on the clubs claims, was deposited there when one side of Crossman Peak liquified and flowed down onto the desert floor. There is a gold mine up there, so the peak was a good source.


Isn't if 'funny' that the USGS geologists failed to discovery any gold veins when they did their examination of the Crosman Peak Wilderness? A guy might start to suspect that politics rather than facts were the driving force behind the conclusions produced by these resource studies done whenever a new "wilderness" is being proposed.
Side note here but there is a very old story of a lost Spanish gold placer in your area, however a key landmark was three red hills. Any smallish red hills near those claims? Just curious. I have a photo here somewhere of Beth panning out samples from a short visit we spent there almost 30 years ago, very curious panning results from the area to the NE of Crosman peak; some showed color but no discernible pattern in the sampling. We did not find the foundations that are supposed to be very close to the placer mine.

WWJohnson wrote <addressed to our mutual amigo Ben, whom is posting for our absent member Klondike>
And one thing I really don't understand is how Mr. Glover determined some of the ores to be Mesothermic ? How did he arrive at that conclusion ?


I believe his classification was based on the size of the grains of the minerals as measured, not by the tests; this is the common way geologists do it. His use of the term 'endothermic' is not commonly used in most of the publications and papers I have seen, and may be somewhat misleading to those of us familiar with the older terms as you pointed out; it has the same meaning as epithermal. Dr Glover did not make the determination of the quartz, this was done by the geologist Howard and Martin, (a geochemist) who both classed the samples as mesothermal type independently. They used the common hand lens to make this judgement. If you have Dr Glover's book handy this is found on page 275.

Another side note here for our readers whom may not be posting; grain size is how geologists generally determine the crystallization temperatures of ores. The hotter the temperatures and greater the pressures, the larger the crystals of mineral will be found and conversely, the lower the temperature and pressures, the smaller the crystal size. I could be wrong on this, I am not a geologist just a prospector and this is the way I was given to understand it.
Roy
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Tue Mar 15, 2011 7:46 pm

PS <as if my last post were not long enough>

WWJohnson wrote
In an independant analysis done seperate from Mr. Glover's ore analysis, the Camp Ore was found to be Epithermal in composition.
May I ask who or whom performed the independent analysis? Is this analysis published in a source we can access? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
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Re: CALALUS

Post by wwjohnson » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:59 pm

Oroblanco,

A hand held lens to determine the size of grains in quartz is a rough and hardly "scientific" way to judge quartz type for anything other than a quick yes or no field test with about a 60-40 success rate at best, depending on how far apart on the scale the quartz crystals are. Quartz formed at 300 C and quartz formed at 250 C are almost impossible to tell the difference with a hand held lens, even in the hands of an expert. Anyone wanting a serious analysis would never accept a lens application unless the sample was such a clear cut example of one form or another. Even then, a serious analysis would demand a piston cylinder, pressure, heat analysis at the least.

If I truly wanted to know the type of formation I would never accept a hand held lens judgement I don't care how expert the man holding the lens or how many of them gave their opinions. Out of 100 experts you would have a 60-40 split every time at best.

Howard McCarthy clearly stated during the tests that, " without a destructive test of the quartz he could not be certain as to the type of the quartz."

That means even though he used a hand held lens he could not be certain and his judgement was based on his best guess. I can say for certain if he judged the Camp ore as Mesothermal, he missed with that guess, I cannot say for any of the others because I have never seen them or any tests done on them beyond Mr. Glovers tests. The independant test done on the camp ore included destructive testing of the minerals, gangue and quartz and positively identified the deposit it came from as Epithermal.

The only things Endothermic and Epithermal have in common is Endothermic describes the outside heat and pressure applied to the Epithermal system during it's formation.

The exact same thing Endothermic does to Mesothermal and Hypothermal deposits as the form.

There is no difference, the relationship of Endothermic to Epithermal and Mesothermal deposits are exactly the same. No difference.

The independant analysis of the Camp Ore was done just prior to Mr. Glover's testing and was done in Arizona. I don't believe the analysis is published anywhere in a book, there would be no reason. It was Mr. Glover who came to the owner of the ore and asked for samples and it was a private matter between the two. The owner was not interested in publishing a book or going public and Mr. Glover approached him, not the other way around. Mr. Glover did not see the other analysis before he did his own testing.

I don't know where this leaves the discussion but Mr. Glover made the statement his testing showed the Camp Ore was the only ore tested that could have came from the SAME SOURCE as the jewelry ore (Waltz ore). And Camp ore is definately an Epithermal deposit.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Tue Mar 15, 2011 9:16 pm

WWJohnson wrote
Anyone wanting a serious analysis would never accept a lens application unless the sample was such a clear cut example of one form or another. Even then, a serious analysis would demand a piston cylinder, pressure, heat analysis at the least.

If I truly wanted to know the type of formation I would never accept a hand held lens judgement I don't care how expert the man holding the lens or how many of them gave their opinions. Out of 100 experts you would have a 60-40 split every time at best.
Howard McCarthy clearly stated during the tests that, " without a destructive test of the quartz he could not be certain as to the type of the quartz."

That means even though he used a hand held lens he could not be certain and his judgement was based on his best guess. I can say for certain if he judged the Camp ore as Mesothermal, he missed with that guess, I cannot say for any of the others because I have never seen them or any tests done on them beyond Mr. Glovers tests. The independant test done on the camp ore included destructive testing of the minerals, gangue and quartz and positively identified the deposit it came from as Epithermal.
Well you are certainly welcome to consider the Camp ore as epithermal, I have no problem with it. I respectfully disagree, but that is my prerogative. I cannot base conclusions on an un-published test/study which I have not even seen.

WW Johnson also wrote
The only things Endothermic and Epithermal have in common is Endothermic describes the outside heat and pressure applied to the Epithermal system during it's formation.
I do not disagree on the issue; however it is clear in Dr Glover's book that its use was intended as meaning the same as epithermal, as you can find on page 276, quote

"Endothermal quartzes are deposited at approximately 600 degrees C while mesothermal quartzes are deposited at up to about 1200 C"

Clearly his use of the term Endothermal here may well have been in-appropriate, epithermal would have been more suited in my opinion.


I don't know what all this has to do with Calalus, for I still have seen no evidence of any kind to connect the LDM with those odd relics, so my apologies if this seems quite off-topic.
Oroblanco
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Re: CALALUS

Post by wwjohnson » Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:24 am

Oroblanco,

No problem in disagreeing with the ore deposit, I'm not trying to change anyones mind about anything, was just passing along a fact specifically to klondike and you answered the conversation and asked me some questions which I answered. I'm fine with anything you believe or don't believe.

Will Johnson
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:45 am

Roy,

"I don't know what all this has to do with Calalus, for I still have seen no evidence of any kind to connect the LDM with those odd relics, so my apologies if this seems quite off-topic."

In his book, "Calalus", Covey makes the connection between the Apache and Calalus, as I recall. At the store, so I can't cite the passage. Been a bit shakey the last couple of days, so don't take that to the bank quite yet.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by RONN » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:07 pm

Joe -
Are you doing OK? Being shakey is not good. As for me I just fired my Neurologist yesterday. Sorry about being off subject.
Take good care!
Ronn

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:09 pm

Hello Mr. Johnson,

Thank you for your comments regarding the Camp Ore. I would agree with you that it came from an epithermal deposit. I would not ask you to reveal the mineral suite of the independent analysis, done on the Camp Ore but I imagine the analysis shows minerals such as Telluride’s, Kaolinite, pyrite, quartz, alunite, with a high sulfur content and associated with a known Caldera Complex I would not be surprised to find that an analysis of the Matchbox ore would show the same thing.

Perhaps one of the difficulties of the Glover analysis, and I had to read it again this morning, is the more I look at it the more I am sure it really tells us nothing specific about the sample itself and therefore has no value in a discussion of ore genesis in the Superstitions.

For example on page 276 Glover tells us, "Epithermal quartzes are deposited at up to approximately 200c, while mesothermal quartzes are deposited at well over 200c". What may I ask is the description of quartzes that are deposited between 200c and well over 200c? I have always considered epithermal quartz temperature crystallization to occur between 50-200c, mesothermal between 200-300C and hypothermal forming between 300-500c. Obviously each deposit is in a sense a study unto itself and one may very well find an epithermal deposit with quartz crystallization temperatures above 200c but because of the mineral suite and other factors it would be classified as epithermal. Also there is no presentation of what the specific quartz crystallization temperature of the sample is.

Furthermore since Glover provides no specific comments on the mineral suite of the sample other than statements of similarity no real conclusions can be drawn about the sample.

Hello Roy,

I believe Mr. Johnson is right. You are free to believe what you will and really I cannot add much more to what he has stated. I would have but it really is not important. One thing I would ask you to consider is that you have 2 individuals, that have never met or know each other providing information that while is not on CNN is relevant. Also if you take the time to read over the Glover analysis ask one simple question. What is this really telling us?

Hello Roy, Hello Mr. Johnson,

Both of you seem to be referencing information that I did not read in my copy of Mr. Glover`s work. I attribute that to the fact my edition is 2004 and the two of you probably have the 1999 edition. That is why I was hesitant to comment on your observations.

Hello Roy,

What does this conversation have to do with Calalus and the LDM? Well a lot. Where is Bob Garman when you need him? If the deposit you are interested in is in fact an epithermal deposit associated with a Caldera Complex you have just opened a gate. A gate that takes you to one deposit and another. From those deposits you will find other things.

Hello Joe,

Sorry to hear you are under the weather. Hope things work out ok.


Respectfully

B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by wwjohnson » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:25 pm

Klondike, B,

Yes, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone or change anyones minds about anything. I simply stated a fact in answer to some of your statements and questions.
I'm perfectly fine with anyone believing or not believing whatever they want.

Mr. Glover's ore analysis which appears in the 1999 version of his book, Golden Dream Part 1, is terribly misleading, confusing and in some instances just plain backward from what it appears he was trying to say.

He appears to use the term Endothermic when he really means Epithermal (possibly) and says the quartz in the Superstition ore samples are Mesothermal while the man who tested the ore ( Howard McCarthy) clearly stated he could not be certain what type of quartz it was without a chemical destructive test, a test which was not done. McCarthy does a best guess with a hand held field magnifying glass to try and judge the crystal size while it is nearly impossible for anyone to tell the difference between crystals that may have formed as close together as 50-75 degrees. Ask 100 geologists to determine this using a lens and you will get a 60-40 split at best. Hardly scientific or anything a serious person would hang their hat on or would ever use as "proof". No serious person would consider anything other than a pressure, heat, destructive test to determine quartz composition and deposit type.

You are correct when you say there is no ore analysis information whatsoever in the book, only Similar/Disimilar comparisons of inclusions, gangue and minerals. It was almost as if it was written purposely to confuse people who are actually interested in the different ores composition.

If Mr. Glover truly feels, as he stated on page 281 that the Camp ore was the only ore tested that could have come from the SAME SOURCE the jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) came from, then it follows the Camp Ore analysis ( the REAL analysis ) is extremely close or the same as the REAL Jewelry ore analysis.

Yes, the camp ore was a high sulfidation Epithermal deposit with some of the minerals you noted, one in particular that is a key matching combination of elements , a smoking gun, to both the Camp ore and Jewelry ore deposits. This key matching combination of elements and the relative proportins of these elements is a match between Camp and Jewelry ore and was not found in any of the other ores tested by Mr. Glover. In fact it is found in less than 3% of all gold bearing deposits known to have come from Arizona mines. This could explain the statements made by numerous people who saw Waltz's ore and how it looked like ore they had never seen from any other mine.

I think Mr. Glover did a great job with the ore testing and what he was allowed to do, the Camp ore being the only ore samples Mr. Glover had complete freedom to destroy in testing if he chose to. All the others were either on loan or with directions they specifically NOT be destroyed in the testing.

I was shown a copy of the SED-EDM printout Mr. Glover did on the Camp ore and it was very detailed and matched element for element the minerals found in the independant ore analysis done seperately. I never was able to see the Jewelry ore printout. So the confusion was not in what was tested, it came about in how the results were presented in the book.

Will Johnson
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:35 pm

Mr. Johnson,

You seem to be someone who is on the inside of the LDM legend. You also seem to be pretty familiar with the "Camp Ore". Would you say this looks like that ore?

Image

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: CALALUS

Post by wwjohnson » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:16 am

JoeRibaudo,

" Mr. Johnson,

You seem to be someone who is on the inside of the LDM legend. You also seem to be pretty familiar with the "Camp Ore". Would you say this looks like that ore? "


No I'm certainly not anywhere near, "on the inside of the LDM legend". Compared to people like yourself, oroblanco, mrsoroblanco and a LOT of others, I am just a pilgrim lost in the wilderness.

I am somewhat familiar with the Camp and Jewelry ores having spoken with and having been casualy associated with the people who are in posession of those ores. I'm not an "expert" on either one, just an interested party. I do love geology and can do wet and fire assays so I know one rock from another fairly well.

The gold in your picture does look similar but I cannot tell for certain. That is a very beautiful piece of gold in quartz, can I ask where you got it ?

Will Johnson
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Thu Mar 17, 2011 11:47 am

Mr. Johnson,

When I write "someone who is on the inside of the LDM legend" I mean someone who is steeped in the history if it all.

It seems unlikely that your name is actually Will Johnson, so it seems safe to assume that if you used your real name, many would know you. When I say many, I mean people at the museum and the Dutch hunting community as well.

[If I truly wanted to know the type of formation I would never accept a hand held lens judgement I don't care how expert the man holding the lens or how many of them gave their opinions. Out of 100 experts you would have a 60-40 split every time at best.

Howard McCarthy clearly stated during the tests that, " without a destructive test of the quartz he could not be certain as to the type of the quartz."

That means even though he used a hand held lens he could not be certain and his judgement was based on his best guess. I can say for certain if he judged the Camp ore as Mesothermal, he missed with that guess, I cannot say for any of the others because I have never seen them or any tests done on them beyond Mr. Glovers tests. The independant test done on the camp ore included destructive testing of the minerals, gangue and quartz and positively identified the deposit it came from as Epithermal.]

While possibly unintentional, your comments concerning Dr. Glover and the tests he had done on the material he could accumulate, seem a bit derisive. To date, IMHO, he has written the best, overall, book to be published on the history of the LDM. The research he did was extensive and far reaching in its scope.

The facts are, Dr. Glover did a masterful job despite having a well trusted source turning out to be...less than honest. Many others trusted this same source and used his fictional historical "facts" as Gospel. Only someone, such as yourself, who is steeped in the history of Arizona, and especially the Superstition Mountains and Jacob Waltz could gain that kind of trust.

As you have stated, [Howard McCarthy clearly stated during the tests that, " without a destructive test of the quartz he could not be certain as to the type of the quartz."] That being said, it becomes fairly obvious that Mr. McCarthy was offering a qualified opinion based on the limitations he was working under. He does not offer a definitive opinion, only his best guess. There seems to be little reason to keep repeating the obvious problems with his "opinion", especially since he points them out himself.

[I am somewhat familiar with the Camp and Jewelry ores having spoken with and having been casualy associated with the people who are in posession of those ores. I'm not an "expert" on either one, just an interested party. I do love geology and can do wet and fire assays so I know one rock from another fairly well.]

As far as I know, the number of people "familiar" with those ores is fairly limited. To only be "casually associated with the people who are in pssession of those ores" seems a long shot to me. Something tells me you were in close contact with the owner of the Jewelry Ore just prior, at least, to the last Rendezvous.

To be honest, your posts seem to be marching in lock step with another ex-poster here......Wasp.

You are telling us you are familiar with the Camp and Jewelry Ores, but we have nothing to validate that statement with. After only a dozen or so posts, you are still an unknown. While you seem to know your "rocks", unlike myself, it's your history with the rocks in question that gives me pause.

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: CALALUS

Post by wwjohnson » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:01 pm

JoeRibaudo

As I respectfully said to oroblanco and klondike, I will say to you, I am not trying to convince anyone of anything or change anybodys minds about anything. I am perfectly fine with whatever you believe or don't believe. It makes no difference to me either way.

I am new here and have only posted a few posts, none of them directed to you other than to respectfully answer questions you directly asked me. I support your right to believe whatever you want and to say why you might disagree with the topic.

But I did not come here to fight with anyone, argue with them, bait them into arguments, slander them, threaten them, call them someone theyre not, or in general, be a cyber bully and abuse fellow members.

We all had to sign an agreement with the manager of this website when we registered. Here is what you agreed to : Possibly you could reread the agreement you signed and think about it a little harder or maybe the website moderator could explain it to you if you don't understand what it means.

I agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us.

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:15 pm

Mr. Johnson,

"In fact it is found in less than 3% of all gold bearing deposits known to have come from Arizona mines. This could explain the statements made by numerous people who saw Waltz's ore and how it looked like ore they had never seen from any other mine."

The key part of your statement is "known to have come from Arizona mines". Not all ore that came from Arizona mines can be identified. If Waltz's ore came from his mine in the Bradshaws, or some other mine up there, it's altogether possible that it came from a very rich surface deposit which pinched out quickly.

I would point to the Bully Bueno as a perfect example. Have you ever been to that mine?
Few people actually have, but many think they have. It was so rich they built a town and brought in a stamp mill. Parts of that mill can still be seen hidden in the weeds just above Turkey Creek. The town, as well as the mill were both destroyed/burned by the Apache.

"I agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-orientated or any other material that may violate any laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned, with notification of your Internet Service Provider if deemed required by us."

I don't believe my post to you contained any of those things listed, but I do have a bad habit of saying what I think. Some people find that abrasive, but I stated nothing as fact. That being said, I could be wrong. If my posts offended you, you have my sincere apology. We try to exchange ideas here, which was all I was trying to do. Those ideas are not always acceptable to everyone.

I will back out of this conversation unless specifically addressed.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Thu Mar 17, 2011 8:53 pm

For those who expressed concern for my health, I am grateful for your kindness. It's my sincere wish that everyone here manages to live a pain free life.

Take care,

Joe

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Oroblanco
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:25 pm

Hola amigos,
I read the posts and fear that there may be some reading between the lines so to speak, which resulted in a misunderstanding.

I don't think Joe intended his questions to come across in a hostile manner, I think he was simply curious about WW's familiarity with the Camp ore and any association he may have or had with another member here who posted very similar statements not so long ago, by the handle of 'Wasp'. I was curious too and probably would have asked the same questions - it is only natural to be curious when someone states he is familiar with the Camp ore and has knowledge of geology. So I hope that both Joe and WW will continue to post in this thread as you both clearly have a LOT to contribute.

My wife Beth (Mrs O) is not a member here <yet> but will likely remedy that situation soon.

Thank you WW for the compliment by the way, however I do not feel that I am so familiar with the Superstitions as Joe R or many others; in fact I have never hiked in from the most popular route via the Peralta trailhead. On our last visit we did go there with the intention of spending a few days exploring from that trailhead but could not even find a place to park so ended up returning to more familiar routes. Just my opinion but I think the Superstitions are full of mysteries, as my wife and I learned you can find new things in areas that we thought we knew very well.

For the record, I have never even seen a photo of the Camp ore, so naturally have questions I would like to ask someone who is familiar with it.

I have never been to the Bully Bueno mine Joe, and have wondered if Waltz's stash of gold ore may not have originated from it or one of the other mines he discovered in the Bradshaws - or even in Grass Valley CA where he worked on others' mines. Whether he did or not, clearly Waltz was an experienced prospector who knew how to find rich gold mines which in itself tells us something.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend in South Dakota, ('Dakota Territory')
Roy ~ 'Oroblanco'
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Thu Mar 17, 2011 9:53 pm

Mr. Johnson,

"The gold in your picture does look similar but I cannot tell for certain. That is a very beautiful piece of gold in quartz, can I ask where you got it ?"

Looking back, I see that I failed to give you an answer to the above question. The ring is not mine, but Bob Corbin's. The ore was given to him, through Helen, by a friend. Couple of weekends ago, he told me how Helen got the piece for him as a gift.

We believe Helen Corbin was a very special and talented lady. Even though Carolyn and I never got to meet her, we feel we know her very well through our friendship with Bob. You can't talk to him for very long before Helen is part of the conversation.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by RONN » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:31 pm

Joe -
I couldn't help seeing your post re living a pain free life. That is the primary thing that is keeping me 'down' so to speak. I am not trying to get personal, but if you would like to share thoughts I would be more than happy. Maybe between the two of us we can solve this four letter word called PAIN. Please feel free to email me direct if you so wish.
Take Care,
Ronn

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Cubfan64 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:35 pm

Follow-up article from the April 23, 1882 Daily Picayune (the LA paper that first reported the S.S. Jesmond article about finding the smoking island and artifacts).

Note the last statement. Was it an April fool joke or?

Image

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:51 pm

Thank you Paul for the extra effort, and no foul that it turned out to be a false lead. Always better to know the truth IMHO. Anyway thanks again,
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:15 am

Paul,

Nice work. I never had much faith in this particular story. It's always better to have the truth.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:43 am

Hello Paul,

Not sure I would throw the SS Jesmond account under the bus quite yet. Pretty crowded under there anyway with the Petrasches.

Perhaps looking at the account of James Newdick and the Steamer Wesbourne might be helpful. Seems they ran across the same Island about a month later. Believe it was reported in the N.Y. Post.

Who knows maybe none of this really exists. And if it doesn`t I guess there is not problem. :D

For some reason this reminds me of what Bernice McGee said in a article years ago:

"We could have spent the entire two weeks in this one canyon searching the vast area for other symbols. Of the many petroglyphs we examined, several we are quite excited about. Photographs of these symbols have since been placed in the hands of men who have knowledge to verify our beliefs, perhaps. We have tried to connect them with Apache, Pima, Papago, Salado or Maricopa Indians, but we now have reason to believe that some of these symbols date back to a civilization now extinct. In the excitement of our findings we made the trip back down the mountin in one hour and fifteen minutes".

What Ms. McGee felt in her discovery is what is important that is the sense of wonder. And indeed the Superstitions are a wonderous place. I wonder what those symbols were all about?

Then again one would have to look.


B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Cubfan64 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:51 am

klondike wrote:Hello Paul,

Not sure I would throw the SS Jesmond account under the bus quite yet. Pretty crowded under there anyway with the Petrasches.

Perhaps looking at the account of James Newdick and the Steamer Wesbourne might be helpful. Seems they ran across the same Island about a month later. Believe it was reported in the N.Y. Post.

Who knows maybe none of this really exists. And if it doesn`t I guess there is not problem. :D

For some reason this reminds me of what Bernice McGee said in a article years ago:

"We could have spent the entire two weeks in this one canyon searching the vast area for other symbols. Of the many petroglyphs we examined, several we are quite excited about. Photographs of these symbols have since been placed in the hands of men who have knowledge to verify our beliefs, perhaps. We have tried to connect them with Apache, Pima, Papago, Salado or Maricopa Indians, but we now have reason to believe that some of these symbols date back to a civilization now extinct. In the excitement of our findings we made the trip back down the mountin in one hour and fifteen minutes".

What Ms. McGee felt in her discovery is what is important that is the sense of wonder. And indeed the Superstitions are a wonderous place. I wonder what those symbols were all about?

Then again one would have to look.

B
Ben - Note that along with the newspaper clipping I posted this...
Was it an April fool joke or?
I rarely toss things out without really looking into them. I haven't dug up enough yet on the Westbourne and Cpt. Newdick yet to say anything, but I'm still looking :).

That's a very interesting quotation from Bernice McGee - do you know what article that came from?

Hope all's well.

Paul

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