CALALUS

Non LDM treaure hunting and Old West history.
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klondike
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:56 pm

Hello Joe,

I have to thank you for helping make a rather difficult decision an easy one.


Hello Oroblanco,

What makes the Jesmond discovery important is that a Russion research vessel was in the same general area in 1979 and made additional discoveries. I believe the team was headed by Dr. Andrey Aksenov.

In terms of the crystals, you might want to try to locate a paper written by Dr. Paul Schliemann, where he discusses the Temple of Transparent Walls. I am sure you know who his father was.

The Temple of Transparent Walls is also mentioned in the library of Oz. And of course Chucuna Valley and The Temple of Sais.

I wish both of you well. And for now this dialogue reallly has no where to go but down since it appears we are in the realm of the tooth fairy and mesothermal quartz deposits. Not a lot difference in those two concepts.

Respectfully


B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:54 pm

Ben,

I don't have a problem bowing out of any conversation with you, so feel free to keep the dialog with Roy going. You will get more out of that than my sarcastic input anyway.

I will be just as happy to follow the conversation from the sidelines. Unless asked, I will stay out of it.

Good luck,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:15 pm

Hello Joe,

Really there is for now just not a lot to discuss.

I have suggested to Oroblanco certain research avenues that might prove helpful. That is exactly what we do.

For example the Schielmann paper is rather easily attacked, it is not easily dealt with. Schielmann`s grandfather was involved in a major archeological exacavation and the artifacts Schielmann describes as being found by his grandfather are identical to certain items found here.

A dialogue has a beginning and a end. For now this one really can go no farther.

That is no one`s fault, it is the nature of the beast.

Good luck,

B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:54 pm

Hola amigos,
This will be another very long post, please be patient with me, if anyone does not care to 'wade' through the whole thing I will not be offended. Wish I could say that I am a "man of few words" but it takes me 1000 words to say what others can do with ten. Thank you in advance.
Thank you for that very high praise Joe, I take that as quite a compliment. I only hope that I can some day learn enough to be worthy of such a statement. I am still learning, or trying to learn anyway.

Ben (if I may be so forward as to use first names, and please feel free to refer to me by my name Roy) it appears that my 'demands' to see some sort of solid evidence may be offending you so I won't ask any more. You have a great story there which would make a good book. You may well find that you will have a good number of folks who will accept the story at face value without demanding to see proof. I will point out that it was you who made your story public, surely you must have expected that folks will wish to see evidence to show it it true.

For the record, that "lost" dialogue of Plato was supposedly titled 'Hermocrates' but it may well have never existed, or may have been a projected dialogue Plato planned to commit to paper but never did, having never finished Critias.

Thank you to Joe again for the link on the SS Jessup; seems that it would be difficult to make a discovery as is reported in that tale, by a ship which was not yet built. A quick check of the excellent NY times archive turned up nothing on it, nor on the other ship <Westbourne> which supposedly confirmed the island sighting.

Joe R wrote
All,

Just for the record, it seems unlikely that Plato's story of Atlantis is anything more than fiction. The great historian, Herodotus, called "The Father Of History, who lived and wrote one hundred years before Plato, makes no mention of Atlantis. In fact, his historical writings directly contradict Plato's claims for Atlantis.

I suppose, if you are going to bring Atlantis into a forum discussing the LDM, anything goes for "evidence".
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this issue, as we have in previous discussions on this subject. Herodotus does in fact make mention of Atlantis, a full century before Plato lived, just that most English translations change the text just enough that one will not find it. I do not have my own Greek version of The Histories handy but the relevant portion is online; Atlantis is mentioned in Clio (History, Bk I, 202)
Image
"But one of the mouths of the Araxes flows with clarity into the Caspian Sea. Now the Caspian Sea is by itself, not connected to the other sea; but the sea navigated by all the Greeks and the one outside the Pillars called the Atlantis Sea and Erythaean are truly connected." (Translated by R. Cedric Leonard)
<borrowed from http://www.atlantisquest.com/Writings.html which has several other sources described, use authorized under Fair Use section of copyright law; using a portion of the publication for discussion or illustration and not for profit>

Most translations change Atlantis here to Atlantic, innocently enough as it is clearly referring to the Atlantic ocean, but by simply changing that "s" at the end of the name to a 'c' we erase the very name of Atlantis from Herodotus. As you have pointed out several times, history gets changed one word at a time, sometimes one single LETTER at a time. The name "Atlantis" in Greek means "Island of Atlas" and the whole legend of Atlantis is rooted in the stories of the Titans, of whom Atlas was supposedly a survivor.

I am not sure why Atlantis was brought into this topic really, though it may serve for analogy purposes. Calalus purports to date to the eighth century AD while Atlantis supposedly dates to some ~9500 BC so there is a vast time scale difference, and those <ancient> sources which tell of Atlantian conquest and colonization of part of the Americas seems to refer mainly to coastal areas, no mention of any part of what is Arizona today. The only ancient sources who seem to describe anything in AZ are Aelian and Huishen and neither mention Atlantis in direct connection to the area. For that matter, those (debatable) references to what MAY be Arizona, do not make mention of the Superstitions by any name we could positively connect to them. I do not know of anything ever found in the Superstitions which can be proven to directly connect with Atlantis.

As much as I enjoy discussing Atlantis, and as you can see I do get carried away on it because I also did not believe it ever existed, but became convinced over time - I don't wish to derail the topic with Atlantis which is hardly related to Arizona, much less the Superstitions. With all the modern re-imagining of what Atlantis was, I have doubts that we will recognize it should it be discovered tomorrow. There are some tantalizing ancient sites which may be pointing to Atlantis, such as Gobekli Tepe in Asia minor,
Image
<borrowed from http://www.smithsonianmag.com/multimedi ... 129&page=4
...which truly dates to the correct time period when Atlantis supposedly existed, near the end of the last Ice age, or 11,500 years ago. We find no trace of any high technology nor superweapons there, but as you can see in a reconstruction:
<artist rendered illustration of temple there>
Image
<borrowed from http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/22/t ... ekli-tepe/ a LDS site but the only conception of the whole I could find quickly>
..there are clear similarities to what Plato described.

My apologies for digressing so far afield, if anyone would like to discuss Atlantis perhaps we ought to start a new thread as it is likely not closely related to our topic here which has been Calalus.

Ben wrote
I wish both of you well. And for now this dialogue reallly has no where to go but down since it appears we are in the realm of the tooth fairy and mesothermal quartz deposits. Not a lot difference in those two concepts.
I know you are convinced that Waltz's mine was epithermal and here ridicule the notion of any mesothermal quartz veins in the Superstitions, but you are mistaken on both counts so I must respectfully disagree. The known specimens of Waltz's ore do not show the characteristics of epithermal ore, and there are meso- and hypothermal quartz veins in the Superstitions; if memory serves the Palmer gold mine is a mesothermal vein.


Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:04 pm

Hello again,
While I was composing my last very long reply, a bit more conversation passed and I would like to address it.

<Joe wrote>
Ben,

I don't have a problem bowing out of any conversation with you, so feel free to keep the dialog with Roy going. You will get more out of that than my sarcastic input anyway.

I will be just as happy to follow the conversation from the sidelines. Unless asked, I will stay out of it.
I see no reason for you to bow out of the discussion; a bit of satire is not going to harm anyone so long as we can keep our sense of humor, and you do have reason to hold Ben and-or Klondike in some distrust. Your obvious high intellect and knowledge of history always adds considerably to our discussions, so I hope you will continue to contribute.

<Ben wrote>
Really there is for now just not a lot to discuss.

I have suggested to Oroblanco certain research avenues that might prove helpful. That is exactly what we do.

For example the Schielmann paper is rather easily attacked, it is not easily dealt with. Schielmann`s grandfather was involved in a major archeological exacavation and the artifacts Schielmann describes as being found by his grandfather are identical to certain items found here.

A dialogue has a beginning and a end. For now this one really can go no farther.

That is no one`s fault, it is the nature of the beast.
I am sorry that you feel this way, but if you would rather not continue in the face of "doubting Thomases" it is understandable. Good luck and good hunting to you Ben, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Cubfan64 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:40 pm

Roy,
Thank you to Joe again for the link on the SS Jessup; seems that it would be difficult to make a discovery as is reported in that tale, by a ship which was not yet built. A quick check of the excellent NY times archive turned up nothing on it, nor on the other ship <Westbourne> which supposedly confirmed the island sighting.
Don't be so hasty to disregard the existence of the story being reported in newspapers throughout the United States without a little more checking. It was published in Chicago and Boston for sure - I didn't see it in the New York times, but found at least 5 other papers that published the story in 1882.

Whether it's true or not remains to be seen, but the story is there to be found.

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:43 am

Thank you Cubfan - I had only bothered to check with the NYT archive, as the article Joe provided the link to mentioned that it was published in the NY Post so assumed it would be in the Times, plus I don't have access to the 'paid' newspaper archives and can only search the free sites. If it was not published in the NY times or Brooklyn Eagle, I won't be able to find it.

I think I may have typed the name wrong as well, Jessup instead of Jesmond. No good excuse just a bit tired and the old back is giving me fits this evening thanks to our recent gift from the skies that had to be shoveled out.

Anyway thank you again,
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Cubfan64 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:42 am

No problem Oro - sorry to hear you're getting more snow. We've had a wave of rain and warmer weather the last couple weeks, so I feel like spring is just around the corner finally. It was a very odd winter for us this year in NH - no snow in November, a small amount at the end of December, a few inches in February and none so far in March - JANUARY ON THE OTHER HAND must have dropped 50-70 inches of snow on us!! Every Wednesday seemed like another blizzard for weeks!

Anyways - if I can find the time today, I'll post copies of the newspaper article - at least one of them. I suspect they are all the same - probably from an AP wire.

There is something I've read that I'd really like to try to do some further research/investigating into - if you're interested, I'll send you a PM or e-mail after you read the article and see if you'd be willing to try to help me out. It may lead nowhere (so far that's where it's gone for me), but it might be interesting as well.

If you are only casually interested or working on other things, that's fine too - no pressure, just thought this "Atlantis" story linked with the Jesmond might fit some of your other research.

Paul

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Cubfan64 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:04 am

From the April 20, 1882 issue of the Ohio Democrat (which references an April 1 edition of a New Orleans newspaper - I'm bothered a bit by the "April 1" being April Fools Day by the way!).

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Cubfan64 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:05 am

Sorry, I'm having trouble with Photobucket not working right - I'll try to get it fixed later today.

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:40 am

Hello Paul,

Good to hear from you. Imagine this time of year can be a bit difficult to predict. Remember years ago traveling to Boston and catching a puddle jumper up to Hanover. The weather and the mud were a real mess. Have to say the drivers in Boston all must believe in God given the way they drive. The ladies at Dartmouth though made up for all the shortcomings. Beautiful campus.

I am sure the next time you visit Arizona the weather will be a bit better than what you encounter up there.

Enjoyed reading your posting on the SS Jesmond. Thanks for taking the time to post it here.

B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Thu Mar 10, 2011 11:48 am

Hello Oroblanco

I do not view your interest in proof as being demanding at all. It is the logical conclusion of extraordinary claims about the Superstitions.

Not sure where I have ridiculed the existence of mesothermal quartz veins in the Superstitions. I am sure there are many out there and only wish them the best. I do get a bit concerned in defining a mineral deposit in terms of quartz crystallization temperatures.

What does Atlantis have to do with the Superstitions? Everything. Without the crystal field that was created at the edge of a Caldera Complex the Superstitions would just be another non-descript mountain range. But because of those crystals the ancients came here. And in their efforts to create technologies and perpetuate their culture they created the original library of Oz. The library was expanded with the settlers of Calalus.

Interestingly enough the library has the best collection of works dealing with the ancient amerindian peoples period. A history that currently is understood only in the framework of legends and oral traditions.

Now I am pushing the boundaries of what this dialogue can provide. There is not really more to say. Only proof can take us further and that step as you can see from what has just been written will shake the foundation of the modern world to its foundation.

That would probably interfere with my margeritas and the Mexican sun. And honestly right now that is more important.

I remember the night a certain cargo plane left Phoenix late at night and in flying over the Superstitions we looked down and saw the illumination of a portion of the Salt River coming from a small crystal left in a strategic location. I could only imagine what the Ancients thought thousands of years ago as the field of Crystals lit the night for what must have been over a hundred miles.

Respectfully and happy trails.

B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:47 pm

Paul and Roy,

For anyone interested in a fair and balanced dissertation on the pros and cons of Atlantis, I would highly recommend "Atlantis, Fact Or Fiction". The book is a compilation of writings by qualified individuals from different fields of science, each offering an opinion from their area of expertise.

The book contains the work of the various writers, and gives both sides of the debate with well thought out reasoning and available evidence. I don't have the date of the work that was done, but can tell you it was accomplished at Indiana University.

My copy is at home, so I can answer any questions when I get there tonight.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Cubfan64 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:42 pm

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Paul and Roy,

For anyone interested in a fair and balanced dissertation on the pros and cons of Atlantis, I would highly recommend "Atlantis, Fact Or Fiction". The book is a compilation of writings by qualified individuals from different fields of science, each offering an opinion from their area of expertise.

The book contains the work of the various writers, and gives both sides of the debate with well thought out reasoning and available evidence. I don't have the date of the work that was done, but can tell you it was accomplished at Indiana University.

My copy is at home, so I can answer any questions when I get there tonight.

Take care,

Joe
Atlantis is a subject I've really never done any research on at all - I always view it as one of those things that would take so much time and effort to really do it justice and be able to discuss intelligently with people that I don't have a great desire to devote that much to it.

In regards to the S S Jesmond, I've found a few quotes that state that the New Orleans paper that originally ran the story eventually retracted it, but I haven't been able to find that retraction or any concrete documentation to support it.

Klondike,

Spring is just around the corner! If we could have subtracted January from our calendar we would have had one of the lowest snowfalls I've ever seen - unfortunately we can't do that and January hit us with at least 3 storms of 1-2 feet of snow (seemed every Wednesday was another blizzard).

As far as Boston drivers, I honestly think in general they tend to be more polite than the ones in Chicago when I used to drive alot there. At least here they'll let you into traffic from an on ramp quickly and let you move lanes - Chicagoans seemed to have no tolerance whatsoever for anyone other than themselves :)

Anyways - carry on the conversations. Always interesting and usually leads me to look another thing or two up.

Paul

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:07 pm

Hello Paul,

Never spent much time in Chicago. Have to say though it is a big city and can`t say any of that interests me much at this point in my life.

I spoke with Klondike recently and he said to be sure and pass on his regards to you. He is in South Africa for several months with Dog.

Well time to move on. Imagine October will be a special month. Looking forward to this summer and just relaxing.

Good luck to you and your family.

B

Oroblanco,

I wish you well also. I have enjoyed reading your posts and our discussions. When yor write your book I hope you consider the possibility Calalus is in Arizona. Of course if someone falls into the library of Oz I imagine it will be whole new world for all of us. Imagine no one will be asking for proof then. We will be just looking for the biggest rock to hide under. Having said that Dog seems pretty confident Oz is safe. Coronado Mesa is a pretty big place to find something that has been hidden for over a thousand years.


Good luck

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:00 pm

Hola amigos,
Paul wrote
There is something I've read that I'd really like to try to do some further research/investigating into - if you're interested, I'll send you a PM or e-mail after you read the article and see if you'd be willing to try to help me out. It may lead nowhere (so far that's where it's gone for me), but it might be interesting as well.

If you are only casually interested or working on other things, that's fine too - no pressure, just thought this "Atlantis" story linked with the Jesmond might fit some of your other research.
I would be interested, and should it turn out to be of no help I won't be the least disturbed. There have been a number of 'dead end' type leads I tried to follow including some outright frauds like the Cardiff Giant or the Voree plates. Thank you for posting the newspaper article BTW.

We finally got a break today in our weather here, didn't get much done but it is nice to be in the positive side of the thermometer. I don't envy the snow you folks get in 'Yankee-land' for sure! (Before anyone gets insulted at my use of that term, I am a Yankee too)
Ben wrote
What does Atlantis have to do with the Superstitions? Everything. Without the crystal field that was created at the edge of a Caldera Complex the Superstitions would just be another non-descript mountain range. But because of those crystals the ancients came here. And in their efforts to create technologies and perpetuate their culture they created the original library of Oz. The library was expanded with the settlers of Calalus.

Interestingly enough the library has the best collection of works dealing with the ancient amerindian peoples period. A history that currently is understood only in the framework of legends and oral traditions.

Now I am pushing the boundaries of what this dialogue can provide. There is not really more to say. Only proof can take us further and that step as you can see from what has just been written will shake the foundation of the modern world to its foundation.
I don't know how earth-shattering any discoveries such as you have suggested would prove to be, to be honest. The geology of the Superstitions has been studied and as far as I know, not only were the professional geologists unable to find any trace of the lost Dutchman mine, they found no minerals which were remarkable in any way. If by "crystal field" you are referring to quartz and the piezo-electric effect, that is pretty well known to science. A new mineral with light refractory properties and thermal peculiarities might be already known too - I am just a student of geology and cannot make pronouncements on what is or is not known. As for Atlantis in the Superstitions, I have to remain skeptical; for while there are evidences elsewhere in the world that there were true Ice-age civilizations, as far as I know there is no trace of any kind of human civilization in Arizona that can be dated to 11,000 years ago, only quite primitive hunter-gatherers. I wish you well in your future endeavors, and thank you for the interesting discussion.

The book I have been writing is already quite long, I do not have a chapter on Calalus for obvious reasons but am considering it. Unlike other claimants to having voyaged to America such as Brendan or Madog, with Calalus all we have are relics which seem to come from a non-seafaring people, and a time period when sea navigation was hardly at an advanced state. In fact by the eighth century AD, ships were not built as large or as seaworthy as those of five centuries earlier, whole libraries of knowledge had been destroyed and much of the world was in a true "dark age" so the probability of a cross-oceanic voyage seems rather unlikely to put it mildly. I will not rule out an accidental crossing at this time, or the possibility of an Arab explorer reaching these shores but Roman-Samaritans remain a very unlikely candidate.

Joe wrote
Paul and Roy,

For anyone interested in a fair and balanced dissertation on the pros and cons of Atlantis, I would highly recommend "Atlantis, Fact Or Fiction". The book is a compilation of writings by qualified individuals from different fields of science, each offering an opinion from their area of expertise.

The book contains the work of the various writers, and gives both sides of the debate with well thought out reasoning and available evidence. I don't have the date of the work that was done, but can tell you it was accomplished at Indiana University.

My copy is at home, so I can answer any questions when I get there tonight.
I don't own a copy of that book, thank you for the suggestion. I do have a question that may be addressed in it, if you should find the time to look it up I would appreciate the effort. One of my own objections to a real, historical Atlantis has to do with something quite mundane, in fact it has been my greatest objection. Agriculture. A civilization cannot exist without a supporting agriculture, at least nothing that I would call a civilization and Atlantis purportedly dates to a time period when mankind had no agriculture according to our historians. I have found that there are traces and open-ended questions which may point to some kind of agriculture being practiced in some places at such an early date, but am curious as to how this might be addressed by the "pros". There is no hurry to find out, I have been puttering with this thing for over eight years now and time is something I can spare. Thank you in advance.

Side note but I do not believe that it is possible to prove Atlantis existed at this moment in time; without the actual location and the blessing of academia most of our historians insist it is nothing but a morality play by Plato.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:38 pm

Roy,

[I don't own a copy of that book, thank you for the suggestion. I do have a question that may be addressed in it, if you should find the time to look it up I would appreciate the effort. One of my own objections to a real, historical Atlantis has to do with something quite mundane, in fact it has been my greatest objection. Agriculture. A civilization cannot exist without a supporting agriculture, at least nothing that I would call a civilization and Atlantis purportedly dates to a time period when mankind had no agriculture according to our historians. I have found that there are traces and open-ended questions which may point to some kind of agriculture being practiced in some places at such an early date, but am curious as to how this might be addressed by the "pros". There is no hurry to find out, I have been puttering with this thing for over eight years now and time is something I can spare. Thank you in advance.

Side note but I do not believe that it is possible to prove Atlantis existed at this moment in time; without the actual location and the blessing of academia most of our historians insist it is nothing but a morality play by Plato.]

Plato, IMHO, was creating a fictional utopia, and as such, mundane things like crops and such were not required in the story and so they are not covered in "Atlantis: Fact Or Fiction". God's, hero's, armies and wars were worshiped in that era, so they were included in the fable.

You have made much of the fact that Herodotus mentions "Atlantis" in his writings........one time. Actually there were others who mentioned the name. Atlantis, the island of Atlas, Atlas by himself is of Greek mythology. What is more important than it's singular use by Herodotus, to our discussion, is that there is never any accompanying history.......from our historian or any of the others who mention the name.

If the history we are given by Plato actually took place, it would have made the front page, so to speak, of every historian who followed its demise. That would have included every country/people mentioned in the story.

For me, that is the most damning criticism against the truth of the story.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:13 am

Hello Roy,

You have told us:

"I don't know how earth-shattering any discoveries such as you have suggested would prove to be, to be honest. The geology of the Superstitions has been studied and as far as I know, not only were the professional geologists unable to find any trace of the lost Dutchman mine, they found no minerals which were remarkable in any way. If by "crystal field" you are referring to quartz and the piezo-electric effect, that is pretty well known to science. A new mineral with light refractory properties and thermal peculiarities might be already known too - I am just a student of geology and cannot make pronouncements on what is or is not known. As for Atlantis in the Superstitions, I have to remain skeptical; for while there are evidences elsewhere in the world that there were true Ice-age civilizations, as far as I know there is no trace of any kind of human civilization in Arizona that can be dated to 11,000 years ago, only quite primitive hunter-gatherers"

Considering the original find was made over 10,000 years ago I would not find it surprising of the lack of physical outcrops. Additionally mining operations on the site were fairly active for at least 5000 years. From what Klondike has shared with me the field was formed on the edge of a Caldera Complex but it is a seperate geological event. He believes a seperate volcanic pipe similar to a kimberlite pipe that produces diamonds, made its way to the earth`s surface in the contact zone between two Caldera`s in the Superstitions. One of the complexes is known the other isn`t. Whatever the properties are I have kept several for years and know they are very practical.

I imagine that if professional geologists can find no trace of the LDM then it simply must not exist. :D

The ancients did not leave books in the library of Oz. Their writings are engravings left on plates, that I have been told are a composition of gold and copper. Because of this their legacy is fairly complete. Are these plates a game changer. Yes they are. From religion, to history, to science, to philosophy to agriculture, a history is presented that simply cannot be ignored. They flesh out a civilization that is only feebly understand and explain a technology that even today could do what the Atom could never do. Imagine growing crops, it doesn`t matter.

Actually the history of Calalus that is told there is really only a footnote.

Anyway good luck in your book and may the stars keep you safe.

Klondike asked me to share the above with you. We spoke last night and I have transcribed his thoughts as best I could.

Happy Trails,

B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:06 am

Hello Roy,

One final point that I would like to clarify. The main body of Atlantis was in the Atlantic. the ss Jesmond and the Russian efforts point the way.

What was in the Superstitions is as I have stated:

"As far as the canals go the ancients were the teachers in both the works they left behind and way they pointed to. Was Atlantis in the Superstitons. The challenge is the question. Atlantis was a idea. It stretched from the Atlantic westward. Perhaps a way of understanding is to think of the relationship of the Superstitions to Atlantis is in a sense the way Alaska is a part of the United States. Not as a state but as a economic resource".

Respectfully

B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:09 pm

Hola amigos,
This is another VERY long reply, so I beg your indulgence, thank you in advance.

<Joe wrote>
Plato, IMHO, was creating a fictional utopia, and as such, mundane things like crops and such were not required in the story and so they are not covered in "Atlantis: Fact Or Fiction". God's, hero's, armies and wars were worshiped in that era, so they were included in the fable.

You have made much of the fact that Herodotus mentions "Atlantis" in his writings........one time. Actually there were others who mentioned the name. Atlantis, the island of Atlas, Atlas by himself is of Greek mythology. What is more important than it's singular use by Herodotus, to our discussion, is that there is never any accompanying history.......from our historian or any of the others who mention the name.

If the history we are given by Plato actually took place, it would have made the front page, so to speak, of every historian who followed its demise. That would have included every country/people mentioned in the story.

For me, that is the most damning criticism against the truth of the story.
On the agricultural aspect, the main form may have been animal husbandry rather than field crops and tillage. There have been recent discoveries of cattle herding cultures in a green, wet Sahara that dates to the Atlantis period and even before.

I only pointed out Herodotus's single mention as being important because you had stated that Herodotus makes no reference to it; in most English translations it has been removed by altering a single letter.

As for the events of the destruction of Atlantis, perhaps you are not looking at the right time period for those 'front page' reports? If it truly occurred in the time of Plato or a few hundred years earlier, then your point is correct and we ought to see many contemporary accounts; however it purportedly dates to the late Ice Age, when there were no written accounts of anything (though it is possible that some form of heiroglyphic writing system did exist, as we can see hints of at Gobekli Tepe for example). Oral histories were the 'order of the day' for most of mankind, in the form of hero stories and what we term "myths" today. Do we not see a common story virtually world-wide, of a great flood event? The first modern Atlantis author proposed that the flood story we find in Genesis is describing the same event, and it may well be the case. Unlike modern news reporters, ancient witnesses recorded only what they saw themselves or heard from an eyewitness, so a cataclysm which struck world-wide would be recorded only in the tribal oral histories and each from a different viewpoint. I am not proposing that a global flood covered the world with water over six miles above current sea levels, but world-wide flooding did occur at the end of the Ice Age and resulted in submerging human settlements in various locations. Isn't that just what Plato described, that Atlantis was destroyed in a single day and night of "earthquakes and floods" - just look at what happened yesterday in Japan to see the power of such an event. Plato may have been weaving a morality tale, but don't forget that Plutarch tells us Solon had intended on composing the history of Atlantis too.

<Ben wrote, posting for Klondike>
onsidering the original find was made over 10,000 years ago I would not find it surprising of the lack of physical outcrops. Additionally mining operations on the site were fairly active for at least 5000 years. From what Klondike has shared with me the field was formed on the edge of a Caldera Complex but it is a seperate geological event. He believes a seperate volcanic pipe similar to a kimberlite pipe that produces diamonds, made its way to the earth`s surface in the contact zone between two Caldera`s in the Superstitions. One of the complexes is known the other isn`t. Whatever the properties are I have kept several for years and know they are very practical.

I imagine that if professional geologists can find no trace of the LDM then it simply must not exist. :D

The ancients did not leave books in the library of Oz. Their writings are engravings left on plates, that I have been told are a composition of gold and copper. Because of this their legacy is fairly complete. Are these plates a game changer. Yes they are. From religion, to history, to science, to philosophy to agriculture, a history is presented that simply cannot be ignored. They flesh out a civilization that is only feebly understand and explain a technology that even today could do what the Atom could never do. Imagine growing crops, it doesn`t matter.

Actually the history of Calalus that is told there is really only a footnote.

Anyway good luck in your book and may the stars keep you safe.

Klondike asked me to share the above with you. We spoke last night and I have transcribed his thoughts as best I could.

Happy Trails,
A mine which was operated for 5000 years, without leaving a trace visible on the surface? I find that a bit hard to believe. A simile between USGS geologists being unable to find a legendary gold mine, which by some accounts had an opening no larger than a barrel and which had been carefully covered over and hidden over a century ago, being on the same level as Calalus, Oz, underground cities with map room, library etc is not a good simile in my opinion. For the record, if you have read the USGS studies done on the Superstitions, it is clear that the geologists did not put much faith in the Lost Dutchman story.

The library has gold-copper alloy plates rather than books? Rather like the golden plates of Joseph Smith or the Voree plates? You feel there is good reason not to show such plates to the public? I have to respectfully disagree. If you fear the repercussions in religion would be a terrible result, your fears may be misplaced; for example some gospels have been suppressed for centuries with the explanation given that should people read them, it would lead to upheaval in the church, such as the Judas gospel. Well it was made public, it made the news and a couple of interesting programs were broadcast but as for causing upheaval and dissension in the population it hardly raised a ripple. Perhaps you overestimate the impact your plates would have, or underestimate the average intellectual abilities and faith of common people?

I wish you all a very pleasant evening, thank you for the interesting replies.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:57 pm

Roy,

[As for the events of the destruction of Atlantis, perhaps you are not looking at the right time period for those 'front page' reports? If it truly occurred in the time of Plato or a few hundred years earlier, then your point is correct and we ought to see many contemporary accounts; however it purportedly dates to the late Ice Age, when there were no written accounts of anything (though it is possible that some form of heiroglyphic writing system did exist, as we can see hints of at Gobekli Tepe for example). Oral histories were the 'order of the day' for most of mankind, in the form of hero stories and what we term "myths" today. Do we not see a common story virtually world-wide, of a great flood event? The first modern Atlantis author proposed that the flood story we find in Genesis is describing the same event, and it may well be the case. Unlike modern news reporters, ancient witnesses recorded only what they saw themselves or heard from an eyewitness, so a cataclysm which struck world-wide would be recorded only in the tribal oral histories and each from a different viewpoint. I am not proposing that a global flood covered the world with water over six miles above current sea levels, but world-wide flooding did occur at the end of the Ice Age and resulted in submerging human settlements in various locations. Isn't that just what Plato described, that Atlantis was destroyed in a single day and night of "earthquakes and floods" - just look at what happened yesterday in Japan to see the power of such an event. Plato may have been weaving a morality tale, but don't forget that Plutarch tells us Solon had intended on composing the history of Atlantis too.]
___________________________

I must respectfully disagree with much of what is quoted above. First of all, I was not talking about the destruction of Atlantis, but the wars against other nations. "Front Page" was a figure of speech. I am very much aware of the era of Atlantis.

The ending of the last Ice Age did not create "cataclysmic" floods, from what I have read, but did create a rise of sea level, which took place over centuries of time. The net rise of the sea level, has been calculated to have been around 350'.

It's possible that some other kind of natural disaster took place which would flood the entire island but, as it is described, it does not seem possible that all traces of its existence would be erased from the earth.

While what you propose is always possible, it just seems unlikely that, except for Plato's story, all historical accounts have vanished as completely as Atlantis has. It's on a par with the thousands of years of extensive mining in the Superstitions without leaving a trace behind, and the lack of historical/archaeological evidence (oral) for Calalus.

Just my unqualified opinion.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:18 pm

You have told us:

A mine which was operated for 5000 years, without leaving a trace visible on the surface? I find that a bit hard to believe. A simile between USGS geologists being unable to find a legendary gold mine, which by some accounts had an opening no larger than a barrel and which had been carefully covered over and hidden over a century ago, being on the same level as Calalus, Oz, underground cities with map room, library etc is not a good simile in my opinion. For the record, if you have read the USGS studies done on the Superstitions, it is clear that the geologists did not put much faith in the Lost Dutchman story.

The library has gold-copper alloy plates rather than books? Rather like the golden plates of Joseph Smith or the Voree plates? You feel there is good reason not to show such plates to the public? I have to respectfully disagree. If you fear the repercussions in religion would be a terrible result, your fears may be misplaced; for example some gospels have been suppressed for centuries with the explanation given that should people read them, it would lead to upheaval in the church, such as the Judas gospel. Well it was made public, it made the news and a couple of interesting programs were broadcast but as for causing upheaval and dissension in the population it hardly raised a ripple. Perhaps you overestimate the impact your plates would have, or underestimate the average intellectual abilities and faith of common people?

I wish you all a very pleasant evening, thank you for the interesting replies.
Roy

Hello Roy

A mine of such age and limited surface manisfestation is perhaps the easist type of mine to hide. In fact much easier to hide than say the LDM. We are not talking about a mine of the size say of the Betz deposit on the Carlin Trend in Nevada. This is a unique deposit with limited horizontal exposure but significant vertical exposure. And this is what one would expect from a geological perspective since the deposit has far more in commen with say a kimberlite deposit than a gold deposit.

Since our friends at the USGS did not locate the largest gold deposits in the United States until the mid 60`s,(The Carlin Trend) I would not place a lot of credibility into their efforts. Mercury vapor readings in the Superstitions are a far better indicator of epithermal gold deposits in the Superstitions.

As far as geologists go there are geologists and then there are geologists. Personally I have found Canadian and South African geologists, and the American geologists of the past to be far more in tune with precious metal deposits. Such Geologists as Spurr, Boyle, Emmons and Maclaren would probably laugh their socks off at the study you reference. And of course Klondike who has written 3 books on the Rand, found it quite comical.

Your points regarding Oz are well taken. Why yes there were many good reasons not to share this history.. Remember this was not a discovery, it simply was protecting what was always ours. The older portions of the library dealing with the ancients are still where they have always been. I have no doubt if the wrong folks get a hold of these records they will never see the light of day. The military will close down Coronado Mesa and the surrounding area for years as they try to undue the work of our associates from Mesa. What really protects the assets in Oz is that copies of the entire library are on file in 4 different locations across the globe. That helps all of us sleep a bit better at night. :D

The religious aspects of all of this are profound. The history recorded in Oz is that all religions are well beautiful. Simply put God or Gods is in each of us. We simply have to see it. Man does not need a church because each of us is a church. That was the real message of the Christ.

Since you seem to be a student of Aristotle I will share the following with you that was a saying that was engraved on a tablet that somehow found it`s way to I believe the Nicomachean ethics or perhaps it was the Politics. Simply put all men seek happiness, What is happiness? It is a life of action governed by virtue.<enduamia>. Many in Atlantis thought it was that simple.

After the destuction of Atlantis a pitiful few of its survivors made their way back to the Superstitions. The message they left on the tablets was to put it simply frightening. It was not the message of a defeated people it was a warning that a world with evil will one day destory all of us. Oz is about the human heart, perhaps it should remain hidden until we become human.

Anyway a margerita and a beautiful sun with scantily clad women are perhaps the best place to be on the Titanic we call the modern world. You see like Jacob we have all become meloncholy regarding where we are today. It is the same movie that played out 10,000 years ago.

Respectfully,

B

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo » Sat Mar 12, 2011 2:48 pm

Roy,

"Mercury vapor readings in the Superstitions are a far better indicator of epithermal gold deposits in the Superstitions."

Interesting observation by our friend Ben, since those tests would lead you away from Coronado Mesa.

"Your points regarding Oz are well taken. Why yes there were many good reasons not to share this history.. Remember this was not a discovery, it simply was protecting what was always ours. The older portions of the library dealing with the ancients are still where they have always been. I have no doubt if the wrong folks get a hold of these records they will never see the light of day. The military will close down Coronado Mesa and the surrounding area for years as they try to undue the work of our associates from Mesa. What really protects the assets in Oz is that copies of the entire library are on file in 4 different locations across the globe. That helps all of us sleep a bit better at night."

Once again, we are led to believe that Coronado Mesa is the home of OZ, and that it is Ben's job to protect that area. Just prior to Late49er joining the LDM Forum, was there an area that was suddenly being discussed a lot? Was that a place where little attention/exploration had taken place, in a public way, historically?

If so, was that the catalyst that caused Ben to start this Coronado Mesa legend? Is this all about a book, as I have often suspected, or is it about protecting........ something else? Does it go back to Adolph Ruth and where he was most likely killed? Was his body moved to protect something more than Barkley's cattle and by someone other than Tex?

I believe, to really follow this train of thought, you need to go back and read the posts of all of Ben's identities. If you assume, as I do, that they are all Ben, the story comes into much sharper focus......like the bees that swarm around a hidden spring, very close to a view that Ruth was seeking, and why the monuments that I talked about were destroyed.

It's really quite a story.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:39 pm

Hola amigos,
This is a terribly long reply, out of necessity in order to address the numerous points recently posted. I have to ask your indulgence yet again, thank you in advance.

<Joe wrote>
I must respectfully disagree with much of what is quoted above. First of all, I was not talking about the destruction of Atlantis, but the wars against other nations. <snip>
The ending of the last Ice Age did not create "cataclysmic" floods, from what I have read, but did create a rise of sea level, which took place over centuries of time. The net rise of the sea level, has been calculated to have been around 350'.

It's possible that some other kind of natural disaster took place which would flood the entire island but, as it is described, it does not seem possible that all traces of its existence would be erased from the earth.

While what you propose is always possible, it just seems unlikely that, except for Plato's story, all historical accounts have vanished as completely as Atlantis has. It's on a par with the thousands of years of extensive mining in the Superstitions without leaving a trace behind, and the lack of historical/archaeological evidence (oral) for Calalus.

Just my unqualified opinion.
A more careful examination of both Plato's dialogues and the 'myths' common worldwide will show the warfare you mention; just one example is in Genesis 6:11-13

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Just for a comparative point, note the Navajo legend of why the 1st world had to be escaped;

The Air-Spirit People became jealous of one another and began to fight. The rulers of the four seas, Blue Heron, Frog, White Thunder, and Big Water Creature could stand it no more, and told the beings of the island that they must all leave this world. Some climbed and some flew until they came to an opening in the sky.

Plato makes mention of his use of Greek names when the real names were not Greek, so where he says "Athens" he is substituting a modern (to his day) name for an ancient but different name. Thus in the war between "Athens" and Atlantis, his use of that name does not really mean the Greek city state we are all familiar with but an ancient people who may have lived in the same general region.

I was taught much the same as you have posted, that the Ice Age ended in a very gradual manner, probably barely perceptible to people living in the time. However in recent years the 'catastrophism' camp has been increasing and the evidence accumulated from ice cores, ancient meltwater floods etc point to a dramatic and rapid ending for the last Ice Age rather than the gradual incremental way which has long been accepted. The argument is hardly settled and I am sure that our debate will not serve to settle the matter for the academic community. Paleoclimatology is a relatively new science so we are apt to see new 'facts' in our lifetime; just remember not so long ago the experts insisted that the Black Sea had never been a lake with a valley full of people, destroyed by a massive flood due to the breakthrough of the Mediterranean through the Bosporus.

Is there truly no trace of Atlantis? Perhaps some of it has been before our eyes for a long time, like Gobekli Tepe? If we go looking for a land of superweapons and power crystals, I have to agree there is no trace of such.

Ben wrote
A mine of such age and limited surface manisfestation is perhaps the easist type of mine to hide. In fact much easier to hide than say the LDM. We are not talking about a mine of the size say of the Betz deposit on the Carlin Trend in Nevada. This is a unique deposit with limited horizontal exposure but significant vertical exposure. And this is what one would expect from a geological perspective since the deposit has far more in commen with say a kimberlite deposit than a gold deposit.

Since our friends at the USGS did not locate the largest gold deposits in the United States until the mid 60`s,(The Carlin Trend) I would not place a lot of credibility into their efforts. Mercury vapor readings in the Superstitions are a far better indicator of epithermal gold deposits in the Superstitions.
This may be a real sticking point for you amigo; epithermal gold veins are by their very nature far easier to discover on the surface of the ground, more likely to have significant placers associated with them and different from the known specimens from Waltz. Epithermal means formed near the surface, and for this reason there are far more epithermal old mines discovered in AZ than either of the two more deeply formed types of lode. As a mathematical probability, if Waltz's mine were truly an epithermal vein, I would bet that it would have been discovered within a year of his death. As for some kind of new, unknown mineral occurring in such abundance over a huge area in the Superstitions, I feel confident that even the 'bumbling' USGS geologists would have stumbled onto it in one of the several studies done.

I also have to respectfully disagree on the mercury vapor test; they are better for discovering deeply buried, hypo- and or mesothermal type deposits than the epithermal type which commonly crops out at the surface of the ground.

Ben also wrote
<snip>After the destuction of Atlantis a pitiful few of its survivors made their way back to the Superstitions. The message they left on the tablets was to put it simply frightening. It was not the message of a defeated people it was a warning that a world with evil will one day destory all of us. Oz is about the human heart, perhaps it should remain hidden until we become human. <snip>
I don't know of any evidence of any Atlantian survivors going to the Superstitions <artifact or document>, nor any tablets purportedly discovered there. What evidence I have seen points to only the most ephemeral use of the mountains by primitive hunter gatherers in the Neolithic, perhaps some level of more intensive use done during the Hohokam period by the Hohokam people.

Joe wrote
Once again, we are led to believe that Coronado Mesa is the home of OZ, and that it is Ben's job to protect that area. Just prior to Late49er joining the LDM Forum, was there an area that was suddenly being discussed a lot? Was that a place where little attention/exploration had taken place, in a public way, historically?

If so, was that the catalyst that caused Ben to start this Coronado Mesa legend? Is this all about a book, as I have often suspected, or is it about protecting........ something else? Does it go back to Adolph Ruth and where he was most likely killed? Was his body moved to protect something more than Barkley's cattle and by someone other than Tex?

I believe, to really follow this train of thought, you need to go back and read the posts of all of Ben's identities. If you assume, as I do, that they are all Ben, the story comes into much sharper focus......like the bees that swarm around a hidden spring, very close to a view that Ruth was seeking, and why the monuments that I talked about were destroyed.

It's really quite a story
That is an interesting possibility, I hope you will not mind fleshing this out a bit? Thank you in advance,

Sorry for the epic-length reply, wish I were able to put this into fewer words.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:41 pm

Roy tells us:

This may be a real sticking point for you amigo; epithermal gold veins are by their very nature far easier to discover on the surface of the ground, more likely to have significant placers associated with them and different from the known specimens from Waltz. Epithermal means formed near the surface, and for this reason there are far more epithermal old mines discovered in AZ than either of the two more deeply formed types of lode. As a mathematical probability, if Waltz's mine were truly an epithermal vein, I would bet that it would have been discovered within a year of his death. As for some kind of new, unknown mineral occurring in such abundance over a huge area in the Superstitions, I feel confident that even the 'bumbling' USGS geologists would have stumbled onto it in one of the several studies done.

I also have to respectfully disagree on the mercury vapor test; they are better for discovering deeply buried, hypo- and or mesothermal type deposits than the epithermal type which commonly crops out at the surface of the ground.


Hello Roy,

Really enjoyed your response.

First in terms of the bumbling geologists. I believe my point was the deposit had a limited surface exposure. It was not as you indicated a deposit that occurred over a huge area in the Superstitions. Again think of a diamond bearing volcanic pipe, only a great deal smaller. Then consider mining efforts for many, many years a very long time ago.

Mercury Vapor tests are designed to locate deposits of various depths. This does not preclude them from identifying epithermal deposits. I don`t remember saying that the test could not be used to locate deposits of various depths or pressure compositions.

Placer deposits can be formed from deposits of any depth or type. This can be seen in the placer deposits of the Southern Appalachian and California. To expect significant Placer deposits in the Superstitions is simply to deny the nature of the country and the lack of water to form the deposits. A epithermal deposit associated with a Caldera Complex will simply lack a placer deposit of significance unless the water action was present to create such a deposit. Such was the case in the massive epithermal deposits associated with a Caldera Complex in Goldfield Nevada and the electum deposits in the Cresson Blow Out in Colorado.

Many of the deposits in California were formed in Mesothermal Veins but had massive placer deposits simply because the water supply in the Sierras to create such deposits are abundant. Such deposits were significant in such locations as Rich Bar, Downieville and the placer deposits in the area surrounding the 16 to 1 mine.

Perhaps there are far more epithermal deposits found in Arizona because a significant proportion of deposits in Arizona were formed in the Tertiary period. By definition one would expect Tertiary Deposits to be epithermal in nature.

As far as your comments about Atlantis goes we are in agreement. No evidence has been presented and at this time none will be presented. Therefore any claims would have to be considered as conjecture by any reasonable person. I have said before if I was on your side of the Matrix all of this is will laughable.

As far as Joe`s comments go I will simply take a pass at this time. I am sure it will be a good read. Good luck gentlemen.

I would keep in mind that Joe has never presented any proof the monuments ever existed. So we should consider the existence of those monuments as only conjecture much as Atlantis unless you relax the burden of proof on Joe. Of course an objective historian would repeal from such a course of action.

Assuming they did exist I would take up their demise with Starman. I believe he and his associates can answer for that.

Respectfully

B

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