I'm sure.CALALUS
Re: CALALUS
I'm sure.Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Re: CALALUS
A fascinating subject, fraught with academic perils!
Could Romans have made it to Arizona in the seventh or eighth century AD? Yes. They might have even called themselves "Romans" though really we would call them Byzantines, as the Roman Empire fell in the fourth century to barbarian invaders. Byzantine sailing vessels have recently been discovered virtually intact in the Black Sea, which show a remarkable sophistication in construction (a combination of the older, mortise-and-tenon method below water where strength is needed, the more modern shiplap method above water for speed and economy) and that the ancients were not merely sailing along the coasts in sight of land at all times. This is only common sense, as any sailor can tell you the most dangerous route to sail is close to land, and a magnetic compass is not necessary for determining directions.
What was happening in the eighth century AD? The civilized world was in uproar, the rise of Islam on the rise and the Byzantine Empire in decline. The Norse were beginning to raid the coasts of Europe, and the first recorded "accidental" crossing of the Atlantic occurred. I don't have my own notes handy but this was about 825. Word of the land across the sea MAY have reached the ears of the Pope, or the Emperor of Byzantium as it is known they hired Norse warriors as bodyguards. Accidental crossings of the Atlantic and even Pacific have occurred numerous times over the centuries, sometimes resulting in new discoveries much as Pedro Cabral discovered Brazil, or Leif Eriksson in following up a report of an accidental crossing discovered America. So the crossing of the sea is not the major problem.
There are ancient records of Atlantic crossings too, including Roman expeditions; Josephus mentions that the Romans have even crossed the Atlantic in search of more worlds to conquer, and Plutarch's "Life of Sertorius" mentions the rebel Roman general considering fleeing to lands across the Atlantic known to Spanish seafarers to escape the wrath of Rome.
There are even other bits of evidence of a Roman visit, which may or may not have been accidental. Quote
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/calix.htm
This does not prove that Calalus was a late Roman colony, but shows that it is in the realm of possibility. There are troubling problems, the first being the very materials the Calalus artifacts are made of - odd lead alloys. The Byzantines were very good at metalworking, producing good iron and excellent bronze either of which would serve as far superior metals for weapons. The only explanation is that they had no better metals, or the items were purely decorative.
I take exception to the objections raised by our skeptic historians, who state that if these artifacts were genuine, we must have other evidence and we don't. The evidence we should expect to find from a failed colony attempt, of what size we may only guess but certainly not large and which did not endure long, is not much. How much is found from our more modern colonies, such as at Jamestown or Roanoke Island or Columbus' own? Very little, less in some cases than what we have from Calalus.
As for the rather far-out theories posted by our member klondyke, I have to say that I remain respectfully unconvinced. Calalus and the strange artifacts from Silver Bell however, I would not be so quick to dismiss out of hand.
Thank you for posting this thread, it is a fascinating puzzle.
Oroblanco
Could Romans have made it to Arizona in the seventh or eighth century AD? Yes. They might have even called themselves "Romans" though really we would call them Byzantines, as the Roman Empire fell in the fourth century to barbarian invaders. Byzantine sailing vessels have recently been discovered virtually intact in the Black Sea, which show a remarkable sophistication in construction (a combination of the older, mortise-and-tenon method below water where strength is needed, the more modern shiplap method above water for speed and economy) and that the ancients were not merely sailing along the coasts in sight of land at all times. This is only common sense, as any sailor can tell you the most dangerous route to sail is close to land, and a magnetic compass is not necessary for determining directions.
What was happening in the eighth century AD? The civilized world was in uproar, the rise of Islam on the rise and the Byzantine Empire in decline. The Norse were beginning to raid the coasts of Europe, and the first recorded "accidental" crossing of the Atlantic occurred. I don't have my own notes handy but this was about 825. Word of the land across the sea MAY have reached the ears of the Pope, or the Emperor of Byzantium as it is known they hired Norse warriors as bodyguards. Accidental crossings of the Atlantic and even Pacific have occurred numerous times over the centuries, sometimes resulting in new discoveries much as Pedro Cabral discovered Brazil, or Leif Eriksson in following up a report of an accidental crossing discovered America. So the crossing of the sea is not the major problem.
There are ancient records of Atlantic crossings too, including Roman expeditions; Josephus mentions that the Romans have even crossed the Atlantic in search of more worlds to conquer, and Plutarch's "Life of Sertorius" mentions the rebel Roman general considering fleeing to lands across the Atlantic known to Spanish seafarers to escape the wrath of Rome.
There are even other bits of evidence of a Roman visit, which may or may not have been accidental. Quote
Roman coins have been washing ashore near Beverly, Mass for many years. Also see:Ancient romans in texas?
If one searches long enough and hard enough, one can discover hints that just about any ancient culture you care to name set foot in the New World well before the Vikings and Columbus. Old coins, inscriptions, language concordances, and the like are taken by many as proofs that Egyptians visited Oklahoma, the Chinese moored along the Pacific coast, the Celts toured New England, and so on. Now, according to Professor V. Belfiglio, the ancient Romans had Texas on their itineraries.
Belfiglio's evidence is fourfold, and so are mainstream criticisms:
* Roman coins found in Texas. The most convincing example came from the bottom of an Indian mound at Round Rock. This mound is dated at approximately 800 AD. Skeptics suppose that the coin was dropped on top of the mound in recent times and was carried to the bottom by rodents and tree roots. Hmmm!
* The remains of a shipwreck. Circa 1886, the wreck of an unusual ship was found in Galveston Bay. Belfiglio says this ship's construction is typically Roman. Nautical experts doubt this. but they will admit that real Roman craft were perfectly capable of sailing to Texas.
* The remains of an ancient bridge. Also in Galveston Bay, the timbers of an old bridge were found under 15 feet of sediment. A similar divergence of opinion prevails here.
* Language concordances. Belfiglio has pointed out many similarities between Latin and a dialect of the now-extinct Karankawas tribe. No comment here from the language experts.
(Lee, Victoria; "Professor Explores Theory of Romans' Ancient Voyage," Dallas Morning News, June 13, 1993. Cr. T. Adams via L. Farish.)
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/calix.htm
This does not prove that Calalus was a late Roman colony, but shows that it is in the realm of possibility. There are troubling problems, the first being the very materials the Calalus artifacts are made of - odd lead alloys. The Byzantines were very good at metalworking, producing good iron and excellent bronze either of which would serve as far superior metals for weapons. The only explanation is that they had no better metals, or the items were purely decorative.
I take exception to the objections raised by our skeptic historians, who state that if these artifacts were genuine, we must have other evidence and we don't. The evidence we should expect to find from a failed colony attempt, of what size we may only guess but certainly not large and which did not endure long, is not much. How much is found from our more modern colonies, such as at Jamestown or Roanoke Island or Columbus' own? Very little, less in some cases than what we have from Calalus.
As for the rather far-out theories posted by our member klondyke, I have to say that I remain respectfully unconvinced. Calalus and the strange artifacts from Silver Bell however, I would not be so quick to dismiss out of hand.
Thank you for posting this thread, it is a fascinating puzzle.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: CALALUS
Postscript, just wished to add one more bit.
The skeptics pointed to the use of the A.D. on the one inscription as proof that it has to be modern since they said, 'the A.D. notation did not come into use until after 1000 AD.' This is patently incorrect; A. D. was in widespread use by the eighth century, however the use did not become dominant in Western Europe until after it was used by the Venerable Bede to date the events in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People, completed in 731 AD. The abbreviation was not in universal use of course, but it was well known and popularly used by the time alleged on the Calalus artifacts. So this point cannot prove them to be modern forgeries.
The skeptics pointed to the use of the A.D. on the one inscription as proof that it has to be modern since they said, 'the A.D. notation did not come into use until after 1000 AD.' This is patently incorrect; A. D. was in widespread use by the eighth century, however the use did not become dominant in Western Europe until after it was used by the Venerable Bede to date the events in his Ecclesiastical History of the English People, completed in 731 AD. The abbreviation was not in universal use of course, but it was well known and popularly used by the time alleged on the Calalus artifacts. So this point cannot prove them to be modern forgeries.
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: CALALUS
Hello Orblanco,
Your points are well taken. Obviously the debate looks a lot different from this side of the looking glass. Having walked the underground chambers of Calalus and cared for the real Tucson artifacts, observed the map room of the other and seen where the trail maps were created I find your observations understandable, but not complete.
Over the last five years a number of posts were placed on this website that were primarily intended to lead a group of well not so nice folks to ancient mining operations on Mailaipi. That was a success. This was accomplished so the heritage of a people could be relocated to South Africa. What was not deposited there is stored in the remains of Calalus.
If you wish to understand this journey you would have to review the posts of Late 49er, Eldorado and others. Pay particular attention to the posts that were intended for others not posting here. This site played a huge role in the excavation of those holy relics.
Perhaps a good starting point to connect Calalus and the Superstitions is a known relic the Latin Heart. The Latin Heart is written in ancient Latin. Latin commen in Europe around 900A.D. The Latin Heart was transcribed from the map room found in Oz. The Heart is an attempt to lead one to a holy place. Transeo Ecclesia.
A wise person once said great claims require great proof. I would agree. Having said this, was this ever about making claims, no it was about saving the holy and preventing certain technologies from falling into the wrong hands. That has been accomplished.
Oz is exactly where we have always said it is under Coronado Mesa. Calalus is in a well watered valley west of the range. Too many folks know this is true. Personally I believe far too many.
My friend Klondike is out of pocket for several months and has asked me to respond to your comments. This I have done.
Oz is right in front of those that visit the Superstitions. Perhaps you have walked right by it. You only have to see it. I would recommend the evening hours when the stars shine brightly.
B
Your points are well taken. Obviously the debate looks a lot different from this side of the looking glass. Having walked the underground chambers of Calalus and cared for the real Tucson artifacts, observed the map room of the other and seen where the trail maps were created I find your observations understandable, but not complete.
Over the last five years a number of posts were placed on this website that were primarily intended to lead a group of well not so nice folks to ancient mining operations on Mailaipi. That was a success. This was accomplished so the heritage of a people could be relocated to South Africa. What was not deposited there is stored in the remains of Calalus.
If you wish to understand this journey you would have to review the posts of Late 49er, Eldorado and others. Pay particular attention to the posts that were intended for others not posting here. This site played a huge role in the excavation of those holy relics.
Perhaps a good starting point to connect Calalus and the Superstitions is a known relic the Latin Heart. The Latin Heart is written in ancient Latin. Latin commen in Europe around 900A.D. The Latin Heart was transcribed from the map room found in Oz. The Heart is an attempt to lead one to a holy place. Transeo Ecclesia.
A wise person once said great claims require great proof. I would agree. Having said this, was this ever about making claims, no it was about saving the holy and preventing certain technologies from falling into the wrong hands. That has been accomplished.
Oz is exactly where we have always said it is under Coronado Mesa. Calalus is in a well watered valley west of the range. Too many folks know this is true. Personally I believe far too many.
My friend Klondike is out of pocket for several months and has asked me to respond to your comments. This I have done.
Oz is right in front of those that visit the Superstitions. Perhaps you have walked right by it. You only have to see it. I would recommend the evening hours when the stars shine brightly.
B
Re: CALALUS
B posted <responding for our missing amigo Klondyke>
I have not posted everything my friend, only a couple of points that support the contention that further research in the Calalus artifacts is warranted. Nothing more.
You say that you have indeed walked the underground chambers of Calalus, cared for the artifacts etc? Why not post some photos of these underground chambers, which would go quite some way to convince the skeptics. As for my own opinion, I am not even convinced that the actual location of this quasi-colony was within Arizona at all, in fact the very mention of Toltecs points to a true location far to the south. As far as I am aware, there is zero evidence of any Toltec presence ever found in Arizona. If you know of some evidence which shows a Toltec presence, this would very much support the contention that Calalus is in fact located in Arizona, and many of us would appreciate if such evidence would be posted (shared publicly). Certainly no harm can result from presenting proof that Toltecs were active in Arizona, and it would help 'prove' the AZ location well.
The Toltec link is very tantalizing as well on other grounds; the area known as the Toltec homeland is also the site of numerous ancient ruins, of large and grand cities, pyramids etc; here is a site with an interactive map that shows the area of the Toltec empire, which was located around Tenochtitlan - not far from Mexico City and a very long way from Arizona;
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0 ... _quiz.html
At least one ancient city on the coast even had a lighthouse for ships, <***Tulum, which was at its height in the 13th to 15th centuries so is far too late to correspond with the Toltecs or Calalus, but shows that seafarers were fairly important well before the arrival of Columbus***> so in my own personal opinion, the true location of Calalus must lie in or close to the Toltec empire and thus somewhere in central Mexico. As for the exact location I cannot make a guess, nor whether any ruins might still exist to this day. It is speculative to even think there should be any type of stone or masonry type of ruins remaining from what was clearly a temporary colony. The 'fugitives' as implied by the Calalus artifacts may have had no settlements more permanent than tent camps for all we know, in fact being fugitives from the Old World finding themselves in conflict with local peoples could well mean that it would have been fatal for them to try to establish any kind of a permanent camp which enemies could then concentrate all their forces on to destroy. It is a major reason why so many nomadic peoples were forced to remain "on the move" not only for finding more game to hunt or fresh pastures for their livestock, but as a purely defensive measure as well. At any rate I would expect evidence of Calalus will more likely turn up in the old Toltec empire rather than in Arizona, where the Hohokam would have been the major culture encountered by any Old World colonists.
Thank you for your response, the subject of pre-Columbian visitors to the Americas is a sort of pet project of mine; I have been working on a book on the subject for over eight years now compiling the evidence. Calalus remains an enigma for me, I do have a chapter on it but I remain unconvinced that it ever existed. The biggest "sticking point" I have is in the very materials these artifacts are made of; odd lead alloys. I don't know of any truly ancient site anywhere in the world, where weapons were made of such materials. There are, to be sure, lead votive offering type artifacts known in both Old world and New, but these are in virtually every case of a tiny size, similar to the type of items made in modern times for children to play with in doll houses etc. Anyway thank you for answering for our absent amigo Klondyke, I look forward to your reply and will not hold you responsible nor Klondyke answerable should your response be found to differ from what Klondyke would have said.
I hope you have a very pleasant day,
Oroblanco
<***Tulum lighthouse, from Photobucket ***>
Hola amigo B,Hello Orblanco,
Your points are well taken. Obviously the debate looks a lot different from this side of the looking glass. Having walked the underground chambers of Calalus and cared for the real Tucson artifacts, observed the map room of the other and seen where the trail maps were created I find your observations understandable, but not complete.
I have not posted everything my friend, only a couple of points that support the contention that further research in the Calalus artifacts is warranted. Nothing more.
You say that you have indeed walked the underground chambers of Calalus, cared for the artifacts etc? Why not post some photos of these underground chambers, which would go quite some way to convince the skeptics. As for my own opinion, I am not even convinced that the actual location of this quasi-colony was within Arizona at all, in fact the very mention of Toltecs points to a true location far to the south. As far as I am aware, there is zero evidence of any Toltec presence ever found in Arizona. If you know of some evidence which shows a Toltec presence, this would very much support the contention that Calalus is in fact located in Arizona, and many of us would appreciate if such evidence would be posted (shared publicly). Certainly no harm can result from presenting proof that Toltecs were active in Arizona, and it would help 'prove' the AZ location well.
The Toltec link is very tantalizing as well on other grounds; the area known as the Toltec homeland is also the site of numerous ancient ruins, of large and grand cities, pyramids etc; here is a site with an interactive map that shows the area of the Toltec empire, which was located around Tenochtitlan - not far from Mexico City and a very long way from Arizona;
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0 ... _quiz.html
At least one ancient city on the coast even had a lighthouse for ships, <***Tulum, which was at its height in the 13th to 15th centuries so is far too late to correspond with the Toltecs or Calalus, but shows that seafarers were fairly important well before the arrival of Columbus***> so in my own personal opinion, the true location of Calalus must lie in or close to the Toltec empire and thus somewhere in central Mexico. As for the exact location I cannot make a guess, nor whether any ruins might still exist to this day. It is speculative to even think there should be any type of stone or masonry type of ruins remaining from what was clearly a temporary colony. The 'fugitives' as implied by the Calalus artifacts may have had no settlements more permanent than tent camps for all we know, in fact being fugitives from the Old World finding themselves in conflict with local peoples could well mean that it would have been fatal for them to try to establish any kind of a permanent camp which enemies could then concentrate all their forces on to destroy. It is a major reason why so many nomadic peoples were forced to remain "on the move" not only for finding more game to hunt or fresh pastures for their livestock, but as a purely defensive measure as well. At any rate I would expect evidence of Calalus will more likely turn up in the old Toltec empire rather than in Arizona, where the Hohokam would have been the major culture encountered by any Old World colonists.
Thank you for your response, the subject of pre-Columbian visitors to the Americas is a sort of pet project of mine; I have been working on a book on the subject for over eight years now compiling the evidence. Calalus remains an enigma for me, I do have a chapter on it but I remain unconvinced that it ever existed. The biggest "sticking point" I have is in the very materials these artifacts are made of; odd lead alloys. I don't know of any truly ancient site anywhere in the world, where weapons were made of such materials. There are, to be sure, lead votive offering type artifacts known in both Old world and New, but these are in virtually every case of a tiny size, similar to the type of items made in modern times for children to play with in doll houses etc. Anyway thank you for answering for our absent amigo Klondyke, I look forward to your reply and will not hold you responsible nor Klondyke answerable should your response be found to differ from what Klondyke would have said.
I hope you have a very pleasant day,
Oroblanco
<***Tulum lighthouse, from Photobucket ***>
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: CALALUS
Hello Oroblanceo,
It is refreshing to dialogue with someone who is both polite and interested in the truth. I am sure your book will reflect these qualities and be an excellent read.
Since you indicate one of your chapters will deal with Calalus then take my remarks as simply a suggestion on where you will find the truth. In a sense they are a way, nothing more, nothing less.
The history of Calalus and the Superstitions are interwoven. To understand that you would need to aquaint yourself with the posts I have mentioned. It is interesting to note the actual history of an ancient Roman city in Arizona is posted on a web site dedicated to the LDM. History does have its ironies.
Buried beneath your observations regarding Calalus are certain assumptions worthy of examination. Why do you believe the settlers of Calalus were refugees? I have seen no historical information that would suggest this. There is significant historical evidence in Circlestone, the testamont stone site in New Mexico, marked trail systems in the Superstitions, and the celestial alignments of Casa Grande, Montezuma`s well and other sites in Arizona that suggest differently. Particularly the alignment of certain structures in Sedona with the location of Oz and Calalus. Of course the stone maps themselves that eventually lead one to a settlement on the Colorado River in Eldorado Canyon.
I will offer you the following possiblity. The settlers of Calalus were drawn to the Superstitions by ancient texts that suggested to them the existence of great spritual and physical treasure in the Superstitions. The same texts that were the basis of much of Coronado`s explorations and his journey that led him to Coronado Mesa. The same texts that still exist to this day in the Vatican.
I would look more to Florida for proof of the Calalus settlers and Snaketown for evidence of Totlec presence in Arizona.
As far as pictures go such evidence being presented here would create enormous problems for us. Keep in mind Calulus is not dead. It`s chldren walk among you today. For those this is about family. A family with its heroes, who died in the Canyon of the Souls and hid Oz for many, many years.
Good luck in your efforts and I hope your book is a real success.
If someone presented all of this to me and I did not know the truth I would dismiss it all as nonsense. Much as one would dismiss the experience of the SS Jesmond as nonsense. Having said that alloys of copper and gold takes one beyond many gates.
B
It is refreshing to dialogue with someone who is both polite and interested in the truth. I am sure your book will reflect these qualities and be an excellent read.
Since you indicate one of your chapters will deal with Calalus then take my remarks as simply a suggestion on where you will find the truth. In a sense they are a way, nothing more, nothing less.
The history of Calalus and the Superstitions are interwoven. To understand that you would need to aquaint yourself with the posts I have mentioned. It is interesting to note the actual history of an ancient Roman city in Arizona is posted on a web site dedicated to the LDM. History does have its ironies.
Buried beneath your observations regarding Calalus are certain assumptions worthy of examination. Why do you believe the settlers of Calalus were refugees? I have seen no historical information that would suggest this. There is significant historical evidence in Circlestone, the testamont stone site in New Mexico, marked trail systems in the Superstitions, and the celestial alignments of Casa Grande, Montezuma`s well and other sites in Arizona that suggest differently. Particularly the alignment of certain structures in Sedona with the location of Oz and Calalus. Of course the stone maps themselves that eventually lead one to a settlement on the Colorado River in Eldorado Canyon.
I will offer you the following possiblity. The settlers of Calalus were drawn to the Superstitions by ancient texts that suggested to them the existence of great spritual and physical treasure in the Superstitions. The same texts that were the basis of much of Coronado`s explorations and his journey that led him to Coronado Mesa. The same texts that still exist to this day in the Vatican.
I would look more to Florida for proof of the Calalus settlers and Snaketown for evidence of Totlec presence in Arizona.
As far as pictures go such evidence being presented here would create enormous problems for us. Keep in mind Calulus is not dead. It`s chldren walk among you today. For those this is about family. A family with its heroes, who died in the Canyon of the Souls and hid Oz for many, many years.
Good luck in your efforts and I hope your book is a real success.
If someone presented all of this to me and I did not know the truth I would dismiss it all as nonsense. Much as one would dismiss the experience of the SS Jesmond as nonsense. Having said that alloys of copper and gold takes one beyond many gates.
B
Re: CALALUS
Hello Oroblanco,
I have to say I really enjoyed you post. You raise many fascinating points. Points that suggest there is much to think about while neither accepting or dismissing the possibillity of the existence of Calalus.
Perhaps one point to consider is the artifacts were discovered in Arizona. If a settlement did exist in Mexico how did the artifacts get to Arizona? It would appear on the surface the artifacts would have been found in Mexico.
Another point to consider is that perhaps the artifacts in Tucson are real in the sense a copy of the declaration of Independence is real. I know that reality is far better to subscribe to than the belief those artifacts are the well it does not matter.
The following is simply a story. You can judge the truth or falsity of it. A discovery was made years ago in West Boulder Canyon. The discovery is importent not because it points to the heart of the matter. What is importent is the artifacts, and the oil pit that was discovered. The artifacts were covered with the same wax that was found covering the relics found on Silverbell Road. The oil pit, when illuminated at night, points to a small crack that widens into a canyon that leads to Oz.
One final point. Oz is the reason the LDM legend exists. The LDM leads away from Oz. That is the way it was intended.
B
I have to say I really enjoyed you post. You raise many fascinating points. Points that suggest there is much to think about while neither accepting or dismissing the possibillity of the existence of Calalus.
Perhaps one point to consider is the artifacts were discovered in Arizona. If a settlement did exist in Mexico how did the artifacts get to Arizona? It would appear on the surface the artifacts would have been found in Mexico.
Another point to consider is that perhaps the artifacts in Tucson are real in the sense a copy of the declaration of Independence is real. I know that reality is far better to subscribe to than the belief those artifacts are the well it does not matter.
The following is simply a story. You can judge the truth or falsity of it. A discovery was made years ago in West Boulder Canyon. The discovery is importent not because it points to the heart of the matter. What is importent is the artifacts, and the oil pit that was discovered. The artifacts were covered with the same wax that was found covering the relics found on Silverbell Road. The oil pit, when illuminated at night, points to a small crack that widens into a canyon that leads to Oz.
One final point. Oz is the reason the LDM legend exists. The LDM leads away from Oz. That is the way it was intended.
B
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
Roy,
You are now exchanging posts/thoughts/theories with Ben Davis who, I believe, has been posting here under many different identities over a number of years. I have often wondered if he is just a bored professor in the process of floating a new book with Calalus as the seedling.
I called him a few years ago and found him to be highly intelligent, soft spoken and seemingly sincere about Oz and the stories he has advanced here. There may very well be a small group who are involved in this game, something along the lines of a Dungeon and Dragons group.
As I have read bb's posts over the years, I have often thought how he would fit into the group like a well worn easy chair. Same kind of super intelligent thought process, only not as polished as Ben. Perhaps Ben never got hooked on the Cannabis.
Trouble is, Ben started out on this site with a series of lies, some about exchanges with people I am very familiar with. That being the case, I was never inclined to believe anything that followed. He has made many promises over the years and never, to my knowledge, kept one of them. I am still waiting for the copy of Sims Ely's signature page on the book he started this charade with to be sent to me. Can't provide what you don't have. I still have copies of those exchanges.....with everyone.
Like bb, Ben is fun to cross swords with but eventually the game gets a little old. Have a good time, he knows his story and the history behind it well. So far, he has never stumped me with the history of the whole thing. I expect you will be like a cat playing with a mouse.
Enjoy!
Joe
You are now exchanging posts/thoughts/theories with Ben Davis who, I believe, has been posting here under many different identities over a number of years. I have often wondered if he is just a bored professor in the process of floating a new book with Calalus as the seedling.
I called him a few years ago and found him to be highly intelligent, soft spoken and seemingly sincere about Oz and the stories he has advanced here. There may very well be a small group who are involved in this game, something along the lines of a Dungeon and Dragons group.
As I have read bb's posts over the years, I have often thought how he would fit into the group like a well worn easy chair. Same kind of super intelligent thought process, only not as polished as Ben. Perhaps Ben never got hooked on the Cannabis.
Trouble is, Ben started out on this site with a series of lies, some about exchanges with people I am very familiar with. That being the case, I was never inclined to believe anything that followed. He has made many promises over the years and never, to my knowledge, kept one of them. I am still waiting for the copy of Sims Ely's signature page on the book he started this charade with to be sent to me. Can't provide what you don't have. I still have copies of those exchanges.....with everyone.
Like bb, Ben is fun to cross swords with but eventually the game gets a little old. Have a good time, he knows his story and the history behind it well. So far, he has never stumped me with the history of the whole thing. I expect you will be like a cat playing with a mouse.
Enjoy!
Joe
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
Roy,
I suppose I am being rude and impolite while pointing out the deceptions which have been attempted here, but it's all recorded for whoever is interested. It all started with Ben, posting as Late49er, with this post:
___________________________________
"Recently I was in Downieville, California and came across a hardback book by a gentlemen named Sims Ely. The book and a number of letters from the Pheonix area were being sold at a yard sale by an elderly lady who was cleaning out her garage. Seems her husband had passed away recently. Her family was from the Pheonix area and the material had belonged to her husband. Anyway I bought the books and letters, for five dollars. I have read a bit of the book and have to admit it is quite good. Haven`t looked at the letters yet but they seem to be addressed to Mr. Ely.
I have prospected for gold in California for many years. Moved here 10 years ago from Georgia. My grandad use to prospect a lot in the Dahlonega area of n Georgia. Anyway we have our share of lost mines up here and I have never done much but just look for gold never lost mines. I am curious is Mr. Ely a reliable source and is the lost dutchman mine still being looked for.
Also is there any museum, etc., in the Pheonix area that might be interested in this material. I would be happy to donate it once I finish reading the material.
I just stumbled across this website today.
Regards,
Late49er"
__________________________________
In short order that story was shown to be, probably, false. Late became an overnight expert on the LDM, the Superstitions and its history, like many "newbies". At one time he gave coordinates for many of "their finds". All were well know and explored sites. One was John Chunnings old prospect hole, which I provided pictures of......flower garden included.
A good portion of the story can be found here:
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 6573#p6573
I have no ill feelings for Ben, in fact I admire the yarn he has spun for us. No chance I will ever believe a word the man writes.
Take care,
Joe
I suppose I am being rude and impolite while pointing out the deceptions which have been attempted here, but it's all recorded for whoever is interested. It all started with Ben, posting as Late49er, with this post:
___________________________________
"Recently I was in Downieville, California and came across a hardback book by a gentlemen named Sims Ely. The book and a number of letters from the Pheonix area were being sold at a yard sale by an elderly lady who was cleaning out her garage. Seems her husband had passed away recently. Her family was from the Pheonix area and the material had belonged to her husband. Anyway I bought the books and letters, for five dollars. I have read a bit of the book and have to admit it is quite good. Haven`t looked at the letters yet but they seem to be addressed to Mr. Ely.
I have prospected for gold in California for many years. Moved here 10 years ago from Georgia. My grandad use to prospect a lot in the Dahlonega area of n Georgia. Anyway we have our share of lost mines up here and I have never done much but just look for gold never lost mines. I am curious is Mr. Ely a reliable source and is the lost dutchman mine still being looked for.
Also is there any museum, etc., in the Pheonix area that might be interested in this material. I would be happy to donate it once I finish reading the material.
I just stumbled across this website today.
Regards,
Late49er"
__________________________________
In short order that story was shown to be, probably, false. Late became an overnight expert on the LDM, the Superstitions and its history, like many "newbies". At one time he gave coordinates for many of "their finds". All were well know and explored sites. One was John Chunnings old prospect hole, which I provided pictures of......flower garden included.
A good portion of the story can be found here:
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 6573#p6573
I have no ill feelings for Ben, in fact I admire the yarn he has spun for us. No chance I will ever believe a word the man writes.
Take care,
Joe
Re: CALALUS
Hola amigos,
This will be a VERY long-winded reply, so I must beg your indulgence. First, thank you B for the kind words and wishes.
B wrote <replying for our absent member Klondike>
B also wrote
B also wrote
As for a Florida connection, yes there are a few very tantalizing sites only recently uncovered; these show an affinity for similar sites in Britain, but date to thousands of years ago - far too old for the Calalus period and with no trace of an eighth century presence. It is one thing to say there is a Toltec "presence" in Arizona, which could be just the existence of Toltec trade goods which were transported to this location by non-Toltecs, and to say that Calalus was in AZ and this is where the conquest of Toltecs occurred. A parallel would be to say that America must be located in China, for we can find Coca-cola bottles there. So I will have to say the jury remains out on this point.
B also wrote
B also wrote
Joe wrote
Roy ~ Oroblanco
This will be a VERY long-winded reply, so I must beg your indulgence. First, thank you B for the kind words and wishes.
B wrote <replying for our absent member Klondike>
That is the theory as stated by Covey and Fell, which would tie in with the upheaval and war that was raging in the Middle East at the purported time period. The translation from the relics only mentions three <3> Europeans, which could have been the survivors of a shipwreck, perhaps a ship which accidentally crossed the Atlantic. I see nothing to suggest any other scenario, no fleet of ships carrying masses of colonists and armies etc. In fact the very materials these relics are constructed of, would be in keeping with the efforts of refugees forced to work with whatever resources they might find rather than good iron or bronze as was in common use in the Old World at this time. Fell located an inscription in N Africa which told of an "exodus" of a small group of people, which may date to near this time.Buried beneath your observations regarding Calalus are certain assumptions worthy of examination. Why do you believe the settlers of Calalus were refugees? I have seen no historical information that would suggest this.
B also wrote
That is quite an assemblage of sites; as far as I am aware, no one has yet positively identified the constructors of Circlestone, but Casa Grande is definitely connected with the Hohokam people; these mysterious people may have had some sort of trade contact with Toltecs, but were hardly Toltecs. Their pottery and artifacts are quite different. The stone maps may be used to fit a number of different locations in the southwest, and we have to consider that those experts who have examined them have pronounced them a modern fraud.There is significant historical evidence in Circlestone, the testamont stone site in New Mexico, marked trail systems in the Superstitions, and the celestial alignments of Casa Grande, Montezuma`s well and other sites in Arizona that suggest differently. Particularly the alignment of certain structures in Sedona with the location of Oz and Calalus. Of course the stone maps themselves that eventually lead one to a settlement on the Colorado River in Eldorado Canyon.
B also wrote
I have never found any reference to the Superstition mountains in any ancient text from the Old World, and have read a good number. Can you point me to one (or more) such ancient text which suggests this great spiritual treasure in the Superstitions? Thank you in advance,I will offer you the following possiblity. The settlers of Calalus were drawn to the Superstitions by ancient texts that suggested to them the existence of great spritual and physical treasure in the Superstitions. The same texts that were the basis of much of Coronado`s explorations and his journey that led him to Coronado Mesa. The same texts that still exist to this day in the Vatican.
I would look more to Florida for proof of the Calalus settlers and Snaketown for evidence of Totlec presence in Arizona.
As for a Florida connection, yes there are a few very tantalizing sites only recently uncovered; these show an affinity for similar sites in Britain, but date to thousands of years ago - far too old for the Calalus period and with no trace of an eighth century presence. It is one thing to say there is a Toltec "presence" in Arizona, which could be just the existence of Toltec trade goods which were transported to this location by non-Toltecs, and to say that Calalus was in AZ and this is where the conquest of Toltecs occurred. A parallel would be to say that America must be located in China, for we can find Coca-cola bottles there. So I will have to say the jury remains out on this point.
B also wrote
The artifacts appear to have been lost or dumped in the location where they were found; this alone suggests that the person(s) who deposited them did not reside there and may even have been fleeing, and desired to be rid of any excess weight. No pottery, ash layers etc were found at the site as far as I know, which would have at least suggested some kind of more permanent presence there. Had the artifacts been found in the Toltec homeland, the skeptics would have had a more difficult time dismissing them. On the other hand, just how much evidence will three men leave? Perhaps we already see the evidence in Quetzalcoatl, the mysterious "white god" who sailed away and promised to return?Perhaps one point to consider is the artifacts were discovered in Arizona. If a settlement did exist in Mexico how did the artifacts get to Arizona? It would appear on the surface the artifacts would have been found in Mexico.
B also wrote
I have to say that I remain respectfully un-convinced on this as well; unless both Oz and the Lost Dutchman were both proven to exist and a direct connection established, which would be difficult to prove.One final point. Oz is the reason the LDM legend exists. The LDM leads away from Oz. That is the way it was intended.
Joe wrote
I read you 4 x 4 amigo; interesting theories to debate but I won't hold my breath waiting to see photos of Calalus, Oz or the LDM.Like bb, Ben is fun to cross swords with but eventually the game gets a little old.
Roy ~ Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
Roy,
Not only fun to debate, but enlightening to research.
Have you read "Calalus: A Roman Jewish Colony in America from the time of Charlemagne Through Alfred the Great" by Cyclone Covey. I have a first edition in fine condition, but they are getting quite rare.
All of the topics you find in this discussion have been researched to the nth degree. Plenty of material to look for, including on the Internet.
As you have mentioned, the metal used for the artifacts is questionable. Like all such "artifacts", these are no longer available for examination.
As for how many came to Calalus, we have this quote from page 34 of Covey's book:
[....also states in Latin: "We are carried forth over the sea [or: borne on the sea] [to] Calalus, and unknown land," omiting "from Rome" and the date 775 A.D. but speaking of "consuls [councils?] of great cities together with seven hundred soldiers" on January 1, 800.]
Been awhile since I looked over my material on this subject, although I knew it would return.
Take care,
Joe
Not only fun to debate, but enlightening to research.
Have you read "Calalus: A Roman Jewish Colony in America from the time of Charlemagne Through Alfred the Great" by Cyclone Covey. I have a first edition in fine condition, but they are getting quite rare.
All of the topics you find in this discussion have been researched to the nth degree. Plenty of material to look for, including on the Internet.
As you have mentioned, the metal used for the artifacts is questionable. Like all such "artifacts", these are no longer available for examination.
As for how many came to Calalus, we have this quote from page 34 of Covey's book:
[....also states in Latin: "We are carried forth over the sea [or: borne on the sea] [to] Calalus, and unknown land," omiting "from Rome" and the date 775 A.D. but speaking of "consuls [councils?] of great cities together with seven hundred soldiers" on January 1, 800.]
Been awhile since I looked over my material on this subject, although I knew it would return.
Take care,
Joe
Re: CALALUS
Hello Oroblanco.
Interesting response.
Did the destruction of Calalus result in an Exodus? Yes it did. The survivors dropped the referenced relics on Silverbell Road on their way east. Much the same as the carvings on the testamont stone and surroundings provide clues to their destination.
Moving east they found their ways to what would one day become Georgia, the Carolinas, and as far north as New York. At a later point some would return to Europe.
This I would suggest is a far more understandable explanation of events than the existence of Calalus in Mexico with a resulting migration to Arizona and beyound.
You indicate that the creators of Circlestone have never been identified. Do you find that something wonderous or is it something to be ignored. There are other sites in the Superstitions that have the same basic function as Circlestone, that is a observatory. Observatorys that were created to assure that the children of the original settlers would always have a way home. The question is whether or not one believes Circlestone and other sites were created by locals. They were not.
Your question regarding the other sites I mentioned is a good one. If you have the opportunity to research the Snaketown site it will provide you the proof you need. Some of the original researchers just needed to dig a bit deeper.
Casa Grande and the other sites are significant because they show the influence of the settlers of Calalus. In fact several have schematics of the city are carved into their remains, along with other things.
You asked of an ancient document that points to the Superstitions. Fair enough. The Platonic dialogue, The Critias, describes portions of the Superstitions. To read these descriptions and understand the interest of the Church and the settlers of Calalus you would have to access the full dialogue that is available in the Vatican or the several copies that are out there. Our completed copy resides in a museum in South Africa. There is however a more direct route to follow. In the Critias an ancient city,(Atlantis) is described. This same rough schematic was used in the construction of Calalus, and is carved in the walls of both Montezuma`s well and Montezuma`s Castle.
As a historian I am sure you appreciate the importance of primary sources over the usage of secondary sources. As Mr. Ribaudo has stated the further you get away from the actual events the more difficult it is to understand what happened. The primary sources in this matter are in the field, they are in the stars, and in the people that have been left behind. They are all very, very real.
I guess what I am trying to suggest to you is that we have always been very clear on some things. We will point to the truth but only a few have or will be given the keys to the kingdom. You will simply have to figure it out and take the time and make the effort to do so.
My friend Klondike for example picked his handle not because of his affection for the Canadian goldfields, although he does have interests there. It was picked because of Klondike Springs in the Superstitions. Near Klondike Springs is a trail system that is very importent in all of this. Also a battle was fought there in ancient times that cost the lives of many, many brave folks. A pivotal place and a holy place for us.
Some are content to stay in West Boulder Canyon with their truth. Some will be content to accept the words of folks they believe are experts. Some will simply see the truth in the evening sky and the crystals that show the way to Oz.
It is easy to call folks liers, etc., It is far more difficult to understand what is right in front of you. Who knows maybe the fellow who made the discovery in West Boulder Canyon was always a gatekeeper he just never knew it.
One final comment. The Trail Maps are real, the rest belong in Tucson. Very appropriate considering who created them.
Good luck in your quest.
B.
Interesting response.
Did the destruction of Calalus result in an Exodus? Yes it did. The survivors dropped the referenced relics on Silverbell Road on their way east. Much the same as the carvings on the testamont stone and surroundings provide clues to their destination.
Moving east they found their ways to what would one day become Georgia, the Carolinas, and as far north as New York. At a later point some would return to Europe.
This I would suggest is a far more understandable explanation of events than the existence of Calalus in Mexico with a resulting migration to Arizona and beyound.
You indicate that the creators of Circlestone have never been identified. Do you find that something wonderous or is it something to be ignored. There are other sites in the Superstitions that have the same basic function as Circlestone, that is a observatory. Observatorys that were created to assure that the children of the original settlers would always have a way home. The question is whether or not one believes Circlestone and other sites were created by locals. They were not.
Your question regarding the other sites I mentioned is a good one. If you have the opportunity to research the Snaketown site it will provide you the proof you need. Some of the original researchers just needed to dig a bit deeper.
Casa Grande and the other sites are significant because they show the influence of the settlers of Calalus. In fact several have schematics of the city are carved into their remains, along with other things.
You asked of an ancient document that points to the Superstitions. Fair enough. The Platonic dialogue, The Critias, describes portions of the Superstitions. To read these descriptions and understand the interest of the Church and the settlers of Calalus you would have to access the full dialogue that is available in the Vatican or the several copies that are out there. Our completed copy resides in a museum in South Africa. There is however a more direct route to follow. In the Critias an ancient city,(Atlantis) is described. This same rough schematic was used in the construction of Calalus, and is carved in the walls of both Montezuma`s well and Montezuma`s Castle.
As a historian I am sure you appreciate the importance of primary sources over the usage of secondary sources. As Mr. Ribaudo has stated the further you get away from the actual events the more difficult it is to understand what happened. The primary sources in this matter are in the field, they are in the stars, and in the people that have been left behind. They are all very, very real.
I guess what I am trying to suggest to you is that we have always been very clear on some things. We will point to the truth but only a few have or will be given the keys to the kingdom. You will simply have to figure it out and take the time and make the effort to do so.
My friend Klondike for example picked his handle not because of his affection for the Canadian goldfields, although he does have interests there. It was picked because of Klondike Springs in the Superstitions. Near Klondike Springs is a trail system that is very importent in all of this. Also a battle was fought there in ancient times that cost the lives of many, many brave folks. A pivotal place and a holy place for us.
Some are content to stay in West Boulder Canyon with their truth. Some will be content to accept the words of folks they believe are experts. Some will simply see the truth in the evening sky and the crystals that show the way to Oz.
It is easy to call folks liers, etc., It is far more difficult to understand what is right in front of you. Who knows maybe the fellow who made the discovery in West Boulder Canyon was always a gatekeeper he just never knew it.
One final comment. The Trail Maps are real, the rest belong in Tucson. Very appropriate considering who created them.
Good luck in your quest.
B.
Re: CALALUS
Hello Oroblanco:
The following from the N.Y. Times might give one pause in believing that only three people were involved in all of this and that Calalus was only a temporary settlement.
Odd to speak of Theodorous as the ruler of three people.
Odd to think in terms of extermination of three people.
I would ask who were the people Benjamin was the king of.
This was never about three people. This was always about a people. Look beyound the words to what the words say.
B.
New York Times, December 13, 1925]
[...continued...]
-+- Fought the Toltec Indians -+-
"The story commences in A.D. 775 with three people being carried
forth over the sea to Roman Calalus, an unknown land. Here they
found a people whom they called the Toltexus, the scientists
agreeing that the people they found were the Toltec Indians. At
this period Theodorus was the ruler of these European adventurers
and was a brave fighter and a man of courage. He carried on much
warfare with the Toltecs and after ruling for a period of
fourteen years he was succeeded by Jacobus."
"Jacobus ruled the people with a mighty hand and was also a
constructive ruler, since he rebuilt the city of these people
that had been razed during the latter part of the reign of
Theodorus. Jacobus was not king long and was followed by Israel
the First, who reigned for sixty-seven years, who, in turn, was
followed by Israel the Second. He ruled six years. Thus the story
continues on until the year 900 and is chronologically complete
through the entire period of their existence in America."
"The records found by Mr. Manier and Mr. Bent appear to be a last
record of the people, written in haste at the time when the end
was approaching. The record does not make clear just what the end
was, but it has been concluded that these Europeans were
exterminated by the natives, who, it appears, harassed them and
made war upon them from the beginning to the end. This conclusion
has been drawn, since what appears to be the last writing of the
recorder of these ancient deeds states:"
"'The last days have come and the inevitable doom,' and his last
writing is, 'I am present. The Lord be with you.'"
"To this chapter of the story is signed 'O.L.' as well as to all
of the other parts or crosses, the 'O.L.' being not his initials,
but rather an insignia of rank."
-+- Evidence of Authenticity -+-
"The investigation and excavating is only in the embryo stage,
and is to be carried on to completion in the future; however,
much definite information has been brought to light that
establishes these relics as being several hundred years pre-
Columbian."
"C.J. Sarle, Ph.D., one of the eminent geologists of the
Southwest, who has spent much time during the last year in
investigating this find, is of the belief that the articles are
not only genuine but are as old as the dates would indicate. He
has established this belief through the geological facts and
through the location at their respective depths of the numerous
Indian cultures, the oldest being that of the Hohokums, or the
great unknown tribe of Indians that inhabited the Southwest in
prehistoric times. The veneer of the Hohokum culture is a
considerable distance above the level at which these relics are
being excavated."
"Dean Byron Cummings, Curator of the State Museum, archaeologist,
and a member of the Faculty of the University of Arizona, who has
also investigated this problem, is convinced as to the antiquity
of the finds and as to the articles being genuine. He establishes
the age of the relics through the Roman script contained upon
them, which he states has not been in common use since the eighth
century, and through archaeological and geological evidence. In
this he is supported by Professor Frank H. Fowler(?) who has
translated all of the Latin inscriptions on the pieces found to
date."
"Professor Charles T. Vorhies(?), entomologist, who has also
interested himself in this investigation and has assisted with
the photographic record, is firm in his belief that these relics
are not of historic times, are many hundreds years old, that
there has been no burial of them, and there is no evidence of
burial, but that the articles have been covered over to a depth
of between five and six feet by a natural building-up process,
over a long period of time."
"Dean A.E. Douglass of the Steward Observatory and Vice President
of the Historical and Archaeological Society of Arizona is firm
in the belief of the antiquity and the genuineness of the finds.
He has spent much time on the investigation, has taken a complete
photographic record and has himself excavated part of the
relics."
-+- Dr. Judd Aids in Excavation -+-
"Dr. Neil Judd of the Smithsonian Institution visited the
excavation and completely excavated two of the articles himself.
He stated that the articles were very old and that there was
absolutely no evidence of disturbance of the earth surrounding
them. He reached this conclusion after chopping these two pieces
loose with a miner's pick."
"All of these men have either excavated some of the finds
themselves or have been present when relics were excavated."
"The time at which the story of these crusaders relates their
history definitely establishes the period during which they
inhabited America, and is supported by the eighth century Latin
script that is used in the inscriptions."
"The place from which they came has been established by Laura
Coleman Ostrander as the Roman Empire, since they call the
unknown land Roman Calalus. They were designated by her as Roman
Jews because of the appearance of the Hebrew script of the early
centuries upon the religious standards, and because of the nature
and significance of drawings and symbols appearing upon them;
also because of the fact that the traders of the Roman Empire
during the first Christian centuries were the Jews."
"The excavation and investigation has been carried on by Messrs.
Charles E. Manier and Thomas W. Bent, with the assistance of John
S. Bent and the support of the University of Arizona, the Tucson
Chamber of Commerce and the City of Tucson. All of the
photography for publication is being done by the Irwin Studios of
Tucson, Ariz."
"This is an announcement and should not be taken as a conclusion,
since future excavation will no doubt bring to light much more
evidence of startling and interesting nature, and as the new
evidence is brought to light a report of progress will be made."
-+- Translation of Inscriptions -+-
The inscription of a cross designated as 1.A is translated as
follows:
A.D. 900(?), Jan. 1
We are carried forth over the sea to Calalus,
an unknown land, to a people ruling widely
The Toltesus, Silvanus were lead over
Theodorus brings up his forces at the City
Rhoda and more than seven hundred are captured
No gold shall be taken from the city
Theodorus, a man of great courage, rules fourteen years
James rules six years
With God's help nothing need be feared
In the name of Israel
OL
-+- Death of Israel in "the War." -+-
The chronology of the supposed dynasties of Calalus is translated
as follows from another Latin inscription:
From the Beginning. A.D. 790 to 900.
Nothing but by the cross, by suffering.
Israel died in the war.
Pray for the soul of Israel.
May God be with us as with our fathers.
May the earth be light unto thee.
Israel, defender of the faith, adds honor to ancestral honor.
Israel reigns 67 years.
Israel II reigns 6 years.
Israel II started to reign when 26 years old.
A war of extermination.
Either to conquer or to die.
He flourished in his ancestral honor from day to day.
Prepare for either event but hope is not yet crushed.
By the grace of God.
Time having elapsed, from adversity comes
the source and origin of our miseries, the
last day comes and the inevitable time.
I am present.
The Lord be with you.
-+- Chronicle is Specific -+-
Another of the texts is translated as follows:
Benjamin was king of the people. They came from Seine to Rome.
The bravest of the Gauls. He came to the assistance of the
people to lay the foundation of the city. He built a wall
around the city to resist the enemy. Benjamin mighty in
strength he filled the multitude with religion. He was slain
by the Thebans. I heard this from my father five hundred years
after, behind the mountain. In memory of his father.
860 A.D. Israel the 3rd was banished since he had liberated
the Toltesus. He first broke the custom. The earth trembled.
Fear overwhelmed the hearts of mortals in the third year after
he fled.
They betook themselves within the city and kept themselves
within their walls. You shall not bury or burn a dead man in
the city.
Before the city extended a plain, hills encompassed the city.
It is a hundred years since Jacobus was king. Jacobus was busy
in the front line. He attended to everything, fought much in
person and often struck down the enemy. Israel gave his
attention to the appointment of priests. Life is to us a
people of extensive sway.
An unknown land A.D. 895. May I be able to accomplish my
endeavors to serve the king. It is uncertain how long life
will continue. There are many things which may be said. While
the war was raging three thousand men were slain, the leaders
with their chiefs were taken, nothing but peace was sought.
God ordains all things.
O.L.
A brief inscription which bears no signature refers briefly to
the transatlantic voyage of the Dark Age Arizonians as follows:
We are carried over the sea to Roman Calalus, an unknown land.
They came in the year 775. Theodorus ruled the people.
The following from the N.Y. Times might give one pause in believing that only three people were involved in all of this and that Calalus was only a temporary settlement.
Odd to speak of Theodorous as the ruler of three people.
Odd to think in terms of extermination of three people.
I would ask who were the people Benjamin was the king of.
This was never about three people. This was always about a people. Look beyound the words to what the words say.
B.
New York Times, December 13, 1925]
[...continued...]
-+- Fought the Toltec Indians -+-
"The story commences in A.D. 775 with three people being carried
forth over the sea to Roman Calalus, an unknown land. Here they
found a people whom they called the Toltexus, the scientists
agreeing that the people they found were the Toltec Indians. At
this period Theodorus was the ruler of these European adventurers
and was a brave fighter and a man of courage. He carried on much
warfare with the Toltecs and after ruling for a period of
fourteen years he was succeeded by Jacobus."
"Jacobus ruled the people with a mighty hand and was also a
constructive ruler, since he rebuilt the city of these people
that had been razed during the latter part of the reign of
Theodorus. Jacobus was not king long and was followed by Israel
the First, who reigned for sixty-seven years, who, in turn, was
followed by Israel the Second. He ruled six years. Thus the story
continues on until the year 900 and is chronologically complete
through the entire period of their existence in America."
"The records found by Mr. Manier and Mr. Bent appear to be a last
record of the people, written in haste at the time when the end
was approaching. The record does not make clear just what the end
was, but it has been concluded that these Europeans were
exterminated by the natives, who, it appears, harassed them and
made war upon them from the beginning to the end. This conclusion
has been drawn, since what appears to be the last writing of the
recorder of these ancient deeds states:"
"'The last days have come and the inevitable doom,' and his last
writing is, 'I am present. The Lord be with you.'"
"To this chapter of the story is signed 'O.L.' as well as to all
of the other parts or crosses, the 'O.L.' being not his initials,
but rather an insignia of rank."
-+- Evidence of Authenticity -+-
"The investigation and excavating is only in the embryo stage,
and is to be carried on to completion in the future; however,
much definite information has been brought to light that
establishes these relics as being several hundred years pre-
Columbian."
"C.J. Sarle, Ph.D., one of the eminent geologists of the
Southwest, who has spent much time during the last year in
investigating this find, is of the belief that the articles are
not only genuine but are as old as the dates would indicate. He
has established this belief through the geological facts and
through the location at their respective depths of the numerous
Indian cultures, the oldest being that of the Hohokums, or the
great unknown tribe of Indians that inhabited the Southwest in
prehistoric times. The veneer of the Hohokum culture is a
considerable distance above the level at which these relics are
being excavated."
"Dean Byron Cummings, Curator of the State Museum, archaeologist,
and a member of the Faculty of the University of Arizona, who has
also investigated this problem, is convinced as to the antiquity
of the finds and as to the articles being genuine. He establishes
the age of the relics through the Roman script contained upon
them, which he states has not been in common use since the eighth
century, and through archaeological and geological evidence. In
this he is supported by Professor Frank H. Fowler(?) who has
translated all of the Latin inscriptions on the pieces found to
date."
"Professor Charles T. Vorhies(?), entomologist, who has also
interested himself in this investigation and has assisted with
the photographic record, is firm in his belief that these relics
are not of historic times, are many hundreds years old, that
there has been no burial of them, and there is no evidence of
burial, but that the articles have been covered over to a depth
of between five and six feet by a natural building-up process,
over a long period of time."
"Dean A.E. Douglass of the Steward Observatory and Vice President
of the Historical and Archaeological Society of Arizona is firm
in the belief of the antiquity and the genuineness of the finds.
He has spent much time on the investigation, has taken a complete
photographic record and has himself excavated part of the
relics."
-+- Dr. Judd Aids in Excavation -+-
"Dr. Neil Judd of the Smithsonian Institution visited the
excavation and completely excavated two of the articles himself.
He stated that the articles were very old and that there was
absolutely no evidence of disturbance of the earth surrounding
them. He reached this conclusion after chopping these two pieces
loose with a miner's pick."
"All of these men have either excavated some of the finds
themselves or have been present when relics were excavated."
"The time at which the story of these crusaders relates their
history definitely establishes the period during which they
inhabited America, and is supported by the eighth century Latin
script that is used in the inscriptions."
"The place from which they came has been established by Laura
Coleman Ostrander as the Roman Empire, since they call the
unknown land Roman Calalus. They were designated by her as Roman
Jews because of the appearance of the Hebrew script of the early
centuries upon the religious standards, and because of the nature
and significance of drawings and symbols appearing upon them;
also because of the fact that the traders of the Roman Empire
during the first Christian centuries were the Jews."
"The excavation and investigation has been carried on by Messrs.
Charles E. Manier and Thomas W. Bent, with the assistance of John
S. Bent and the support of the University of Arizona, the Tucson
Chamber of Commerce and the City of Tucson. All of the
photography for publication is being done by the Irwin Studios of
Tucson, Ariz."
"This is an announcement and should not be taken as a conclusion,
since future excavation will no doubt bring to light much more
evidence of startling and interesting nature, and as the new
evidence is brought to light a report of progress will be made."
-+- Translation of Inscriptions -+-
The inscription of a cross designated as 1.A is translated as
follows:
A.D. 900(?), Jan. 1
We are carried forth over the sea to Calalus,
an unknown land, to a people ruling widely
The Toltesus, Silvanus were lead over
Theodorus brings up his forces at the City
Rhoda and more than seven hundred are captured
No gold shall be taken from the city
Theodorus, a man of great courage, rules fourteen years
James rules six years
With God's help nothing need be feared
In the name of Israel
OL
-+- Death of Israel in "the War." -+-
The chronology of the supposed dynasties of Calalus is translated
as follows from another Latin inscription:
From the Beginning. A.D. 790 to 900.
Nothing but by the cross, by suffering.
Israel died in the war.
Pray for the soul of Israel.
May God be with us as with our fathers.
May the earth be light unto thee.
Israel, defender of the faith, adds honor to ancestral honor.
Israel reigns 67 years.
Israel II reigns 6 years.
Israel II started to reign when 26 years old.
A war of extermination.
Either to conquer or to die.
He flourished in his ancestral honor from day to day.
Prepare for either event but hope is not yet crushed.
By the grace of God.
Time having elapsed, from adversity comes
the source and origin of our miseries, the
last day comes and the inevitable time.
I am present.
The Lord be with you.
-+- Chronicle is Specific -+-
Another of the texts is translated as follows:
Benjamin was king of the people. They came from Seine to Rome.
The bravest of the Gauls. He came to the assistance of the
people to lay the foundation of the city. He built a wall
around the city to resist the enemy. Benjamin mighty in
strength he filled the multitude with religion. He was slain
by the Thebans. I heard this from my father five hundred years
after, behind the mountain. In memory of his father.
860 A.D. Israel the 3rd was banished since he had liberated
the Toltesus. He first broke the custom. The earth trembled.
Fear overwhelmed the hearts of mortals in the third year after
he fled.
They betook themselves within the city and kept themselves
within their walls. You shall not bury or burn a dead man in
the city.
Before the city extended a plain, hills encompassed the city.
It is a hundred years since Jacobus was king. Jacobus was busy
in the front line. He attended to everything, fought much in
person and often struck down the enemy. Israel gave his
attention to the appointment of priests. Life is to us a
people of extensive sway.
An unknown land A.D. 895. May I be able to accomplish my
endeavors to serve the king. It is uncertain how long life
will continue. There are many things which may be said. While
the war was raging three thousand men were slain, the leaders
with their chiefs were taken, nothing but peace was sought.
God ordains all things.
O.L.
A brief inscription which bears no signature refers briefly to
the transatlantic voyage of the Dark Age Arizonians as follows:
We are carried over the sea to Roman Calalus, an unknown land.
They came in the year 775. Theodorus ruled the people.
Re: CALALUS
Thank you Joe! Yes I have read Covey's book but it was some years ago and my notes are not available to me at the moment, so I appreciate your finding the relevant passage. I only recalled the three named Europeans (or I should say Old World) and forgot the 700 soldiers. This certainly suggests more than a single ship; for the time period it would suggest a small squadron or flotilla, for while ancient warships capable of carrying 300 marines or even more (if the great Syracusa or the legendary "fifty" of Alexandria really existed, which could carry nearly a fully phalanx or brigade of 5000 marines) the ships of the eighth century AD were smaller than those even of the second century AD. Some figures are available on the Byzantine Navy, and although the historical record of the empire is far from complete it seems reasonable to expect that an expedition of the size we are talking about, or the LOSS of such a force even by accident (storms carrying it across the sea and out of communications forever) would have rated some mention in the records or annals of the empire. I have never found such a record, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or didn't at one time.
You are quite correct, Covey's book has become something of a collectors item and I now wish that I had bought a copy back when they were more reasonable. Or at least have taken photocopies of the most important pages anyway.
One angle of this has puzzled me, that is why the LDS church never seized onto it as evidence to support the golden tablets found by Joseph Smith. The story as found on the Calalus artifacts might have proven useful to support their own version of history. I have a personal theory on what Smith truly found on the bank of the Susquehanna not far from where I was born too, and could only prove or disprove it by a personal visit to see those gold plates which would never be allowed, at least that is what I have been told. That is quite another matter however.
This larger figure of the number of Europeans in the Calalus party raises the probability that it is a hoax; as mentioned, the loss of such a large party should have been recorded in the Old world, such a large number arriving at one time would more likely leave a lasting impact (relics, rats, disease etc) that would be simple to prove and so forth. The odds of such things as helmets, armor etc being kept even by enemies or dedicated in temples as spoils of victory would mean that we should have one or more examples turning up in these sites, but none have surfaced.
Wow I am getting carried away here again, sorry about that. These same arguments are used to support the Isolation theory (as in 'Germs, Guns and Steel' if memory serves) yet will not hold for much smaller or more brief visits from across the seas. The amount of materials deposited by a ship making landfall only for a stopover may not leave us a single trace after a much shorter time; try to find any trace of the various landing spots of Columbus, Cabot, Hudson and many others and these were not only just a few centuries ago but are fairly well recorded. Then too there are evidences that some diseases DID get transmitted from one 'world' to the other in ancient times, inexplicably. The sudden collapse of the Mound Builder culture is one example which coincides with the period just prior to the arrival of Columbus - did some earlier European make landfall, that we have no record of? The Melungeons might well be the progeny of such an incident, and recent DNA tests have confirmed their Portuguese heritage which seems to predate 1492.
If the Calalus artifacts are real (and I am willing to leave that door open) the tale they tell us is yet another missing chapter of our southwestern history. I would hope that the site of this mystery colony would be found and made public knowledge. What good can come of keeping the location a secret? The contention posed by our friend B that descendants of Calalus walk among us today is not supported by any evidence I know of, so it would behoove B to provide some sort of proof they exist.
B wrote <responding for our absent member Klondike>
B also wrote
B also wrote
B also wrote
"The story commences in A.D. 775 with three people being carried
forth over the sea to Roman Calalus, an unknown land" <snip>
The 700 soldiers are mentioned later. and the whole amount to a remarkable story. So far you have referenced a number of locations and a text which is alleged to be in Vatican archives, and I remain unconvinced that the locations listed are connected with Calalus at all. If you wish to convince me it will take a bit more.
As for the Peralta stone maps - even if genuine, I seriously doubt they will date to before 1492 which would be necessary to tie in to Calalus. All together, you present a most interesting theory or set of theories amigo, probably would make a good book; unfortunately I have to say that I remain respectfully un-convinced.
If you are not willing to post photos or other sorts of proofs to back up your assertions, that is your prerogative and I will not be offended in the least, but I will remain unconvinced that you have it correct.
I hope that none of my words are offensive, that my doubts are not taken as a personal slight as no offense is intended nor does it have any bearing on friendship if we disagree. If anything I posted has caused offense, my apologies.
Sorry for getting so carried away on this amigos. I hope you all have a very pleasant evening (or day, what ever time you are reading this blather of mine)
Roy
You are quite correct, Covey's book has become something of a collectors item and I now wish that I had bought a copy back when they were more reasonable. Or at least have taken photocopies of the most important pages anyway.
One angle of this has puzzled me, that is why the LDS church never seized onto it as evidence to support the golden tablets found by Joseph Smith. The story as found on the Calalus artifacts might have proven useful to support their own version of history. I have a personal theory on what Smith truly found on the bank of the Susquehanna not far from where I was born too, and could only prove or disprove it by a personal visit to see those gold plates which would never be allowed, at least that is what I have been told. That is quite another matter however.
This larger figure of the number of Europeans in the Calalus party raises the probability that it is a hoax; as mentioned, the loss of such a large party should have been recorded in the Old world, such a large number arriving at one time would more likely leave a lasting impact (relics, rats, disease etc) that would be simple to prove and so forth. The odds of such things as helmets, armor etc being kept even by enemies or dedicated in temples as spoils of victory would mean that we should have one or more examples turning up in these sites, but none have surfaced.
Wow I am getting carried away here again, sorry about that. These same arguments are used to support the Isolation theory (as in 'Germs, Guns and Steel' if memory serves) yet will not hold for much smaller or more brief visits from across the seas. The amount of materials deposited by a ship making landfall only for a stopover may not leave us a single trace after a much shorter time; try to find any trace of the various landing spots of Columbus, Cabot, Hudson and many others and these were not only just a few centuries ago but are fairly well recorded. Then too there are evidences that some diseases DID get transmitted from one 'world' to the other in ancient times, inexplicably. The sudden collapse of the Mound Builder culture is one example which coincides with the period just prior to the arrival of Columbus - did some earlier European make landfall, that we have no record of? The Melungeons might well be the progeny of such an incident, and recent DNA tests have confirmed their Portuguese heritage which seems to predate 1492.
If the Calalus artifacts are real (and I am willing to leave that door open) the tale they tell us is yet another missing chapter of our southwestern history. I would hope that the site of this mystery colony would be found and made public knowledge. What good can come of keeping the location a secret? The contention posed by our friend B that descendants of Calalus walk among us today is not supported by any evidence I know of, so it would behoove B to provide some sort of proof they exist.
B wrote <responding for our absent member Klondike>
If by your mention of the 'testament stone' you are referring to the Los Lunas Dekalogue in NM, then I have to respectfully disagree with any connection to Calalus. The letters used on the Dekalogue are of a much older type and the language is not Latin but a Semitic tongue. Samaritan is a Semitic tongue and I have not attempted to make a translation of the Dekalogue using that particular language but it may work; it can be read in either Hebrew or Phoenician and you get two very different results. The Dekalogue stone inscription is simply too old to be dated to 800 AD or even later however. The remainder of the route you describe I would have to respectfully say seems like speculation rather than founded on evidence alone.Did the destruction of Calalus result in an Exodus? Yes it did. The survivors dropped the referenced relics on Silverbell Road on their way east. Much the same as the carvings on the testamont stone and surroundings provide clues to their destination.
Moving east they found their ways to what would one day become Georgia, the Carolinas, and as far north as New York. At a later point some would return to Europe.
B also wrote
I would call Circlestone a good mystery, and it would not surprise me in the least to find that it was not constructed by any local tribes but by foreign visitors. However it may well be over 2000 years old, which would make it far too old to connect with Calalus.You indicate that the creators of Circlestone have never been identified. Do you find that something wonderous or is it something to be ignored. There are other sites in the Superstitions that have the same basic function as Circlestone, that is a observatory. Observatorys that were created to assure that the children of the original settlers would always have a way home. The question is whether or not one believes Circlestone and other sites were created by locals. They were not.
B also wrote
I have read Plato's dialogues and found the clear reference to the Americas; however this reference does not describe any geography beyond the coastline to any extent. Are you claiming that the Vatican holds a different version of Critias from that known world wide?You asked of an ancient document that points to the Superstitions. Fair enough. The Platonic dialogue, The Critias, describes portions of the Superstitions.
B also wrote
I have not called anyone a liar here amigo, only that I remain unconvinced. It is easy to say one holds all sorts of proof without providing any of it to be examined. If I seem overly skeptical to you, that is not my intention - for I am convinced that visitors from the Old World did in fact come to the Americas and to a certain limited degree interact with the peoples living here. The Chinese legend of Fu Sang is a prime example; however most of these visitors were very ephemeral in their impact and some were doubtless purely accidental. Calalus is a curious example which is as yet unproven at least in my opinion. The year 775 AD is given as their date of arrival; thank you for posting the 1925 NYT article, I found it online also. The opening of this article is in keeping with an accidental crossing, quoteIt is easy to call folks liers, etc., It is far more difficult to understand what is right in front of you. Who knows maybe the fellow who made the discovery in West Boulder Canyon was always a gatekeeper he just never knew it.
One final comment. The Trail Maps are real, the rest belong in Tucson. Very appropriate considering who created them
"The story commences in A.D. 775 with three people being carried
forth over the sea to Roman Calalus, an unknown land" <snip>
The 700 soldiers are mentioned later. and the whole amount to a remarkable story. So far you have referenced a number of locations and a text which is alleged to be in Vatican archives, and I remain unconvinced that the locations listed are connected with Calalus at all. If you wish to convince me it will take a bit more.
As for the Peralta stone maps - even if genuine, I seriously doubt they will date to before 1492 which would be necessary to tie in to Calalus. All together, you present a most interesting theory or set of theories amigo, probably would make a good book; unfortunately I have to say that I remain respectfully un-convinced.
If you are not willing to post photos or other sorts of proofs to back up your assertions, that is your prerogative and I will not be offended in the least, but I will remain unconvinced that you have it correct.
I hope that none of my words are offensive, that my doubts are not taken as a personal slight as no offense is intended nor does it have any bearing on friendship if we disagree. If anything I posted has caused offense, my apologies.
Sorry for getting so carried away on this amigos. I hope you all have a very pleasant evening (or day, what ever time you are reading this blather of mine)
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
Roy,
"One angle of this has puzzled me, that is why the LDS church never seized onto it as evidence to support the golden tablets found by Joseph Smith. The story as found on the Calalus artifacts might have proven useful to support their own version of history. I have a personal theory on what Smith truly found on the bank of the Susquehanna not far from where I was born too, and could only prove or disprove it by a personal visit to see those gold plates which would never be allowed, at least that is what I have been told. That is quite another matter however."
I studied the Mormon religion and history for a few years. I think the answer to your question is pretty simple. There have been so many frauds created by overzealous Mormons, that the church will not endorse any artifacts that are found these days. Been there unofficial policy for a number of years now. I don't keep up with Mormon stuff any more, so things may have changed, but I doubt it.
When I first started reading about Calalus, my first thought was.......Mormon!
The Golden Plates have never been available for viewing, because the church doesn't have them.....never did, as far as I remember. Just in case you weren't aware, there has been a Mormon connection to the Tucson artifacts. I would have to find my notes to elaborate.
Take care,
Joe
"One angle of this has puzzled me, that is why the LDS church never seized onto it as evidence to support the golden tablets found by Joseph Smith. The story as found on the Calalus artifacts might have proven useful to support their own version of history. I have a personal theory on what Smith truly found on the bank of the Susquehanna not far from where I was born too, and could only prove or disprove it by a personal visit to see those gold plates which would never be allowed, at least that is what I have been told. That is quite another matter however."
I studied the Mormon religion and history for a few years. I think the answer to your question is pretty simple. There have been so many frauds created by overzealous Mormons, that the church will not endorse any artifacts that are found these days. Been there unofficial policy for a number of years now. I don't keep up with Mormon stuff any more, so things may have changed, but I doubt it.
When I first started reading about Calalus, my first thought was.......Mormon!
The Golden Plates have never been available for viewing, because the church doesn't have them.....never did, as far as I remember. Just in case you weren't aware, there has been a Mormon connection to the Tucson artifacts. I would have to find my notes to elaborate.
Take care,
Joe
Re: CALALUS
Hello Oroblanco,
Enjoyed your polite and well reasoned response. I was not speaking of you with my comments referencing the ease of dismissing uncomfortable positions by challenging the integrity of the messenger.
In discussing the Stone Maps keep in mind that the trail maps, at least from this side of the matrix can be looked at only from the perspective that the trail maps are real and the others are just window dressing. Futhermore their date of creation is not as important as what they point to. The maps were copied from the map room in Oz as was the Heart Insert and the Latin Heart.The Latin Heart copied symbols and letters that were written in old latin. Did you ever consider why the Latin Heart is written in old Latin. It is because its creator simply did not understand what was being copied only that it was important. Perhaps you would share your opinion of the Latin Heart? Some seem to believe cowboys in the Superstition Mountains had a working knowlege of Latin commen in 900 AD Europe.
As you know the Critias is an incomplete dialogue. The balance of the dialogue exists. It was the trigger mechanism that brought the Calalus settlers to the new world. Their first port of call was in Florida. I should know its name but for the moment it escapes me. It was also the real reason behinds Coronado`s efforts.
Circlestone is an interesting point and your comments open up possibilites that have always intrigued me. Obviously my position is the site is a remnant of the Calalus colony. I have always wondered if it sits on an even more ancient site. I will share with you the knowledge that a dig was done there years ago and items found beneath Circlestone are far, far older than 900A.D.
Your point about the testamont stone is well taken. My response is to keep in mind not only the testamont stone but the site itself. A published study of the site that deals with the multiplicty of languages found there would help change your mind. Also keep in mind the settlers of Calalus had a diverse background. It was a true melting pot of peoples from the middle east. Let`s just say a number of diverse cultures were represented.
Calalus exists it has for many many years. Having said that do you really believe presenting evidence that a plane load of artifacts where removed from the most important archealogical site in the United States, regardless of the motives, would be looked upon in a positive fashion by the locals?
This is a bit different than the removal of a few trinkets from West Boulder Canyon.
If you are interested in the Mormon involvement with Calalus you may want to consider reviewing Eldorado`s post. He had quite the humouros relationship with a member of the church.
Perhaps your being unconvinced is a good thing. Too many folks are convinced as it is. Being passionate is a good thing. With passion great things are possible.
May the stars keep you safe and your trail always follow the starbursts of the heart.
B.
Enjoyed your polite and well reasoned response. I was not speaking of you with my comments referencing the ease of dismissing uncomfortable positions by challenging the integrity of the messenger.
In discussing the Stone Maps keep in mind that the trail maps, at least from this side of the matrix can be looked at only from the perspective that the trail maps are real and the others are just window dressing. Futhermore their date of creation is not as important as what they point to. The maps were copied from the map room in Oz as was the Heart Insert and the Latin Heart.The Latin Heart copied symbols and letters that were written in old latin. Did you ever consider why the Latin Heart is written in old Latin. It is because its creator simply did not understand what was being copied only that it was important. Perhaps you would share your opinion of the Latin Heart? Some seem to believe cowboys in the Superstition Mountains had a working knowlege of Latin commen in 900 AD Europe.
As you know the Critias is an incomplete dialogue. The balance of the dialogue exists. It was the trigger mechanism that brought the Calalus settlers to the new world. Their first port of call was in Florida. I should know its name but for the moment it escapes me. It was also the real reason behinds Coronado`s efforts.
Circlestone is an interesting point and your comments open up possibilites that have always intrigued me. Obviously my position is the site is a remnant of the Calalus colony. I have always wondered if it sits on an even more ancient site. I will share with you the knowledge that a dig was done there years ago and items found beneath Circlestone are far, far older than 900A.D.
Your point about the testamont stone is well taken. My response is to keep in mind not only the testamont stone but the site itself. A published study of the site that deals with the multiplicty of languages found there would help change your mind. Also keep in mind the settlers of Calalus had a diverse background. It was a true melting pot of peoples from the middle east. Let`s just say a number of diverse cultures were represented.
Calalus exists it has for many many years. Having said that do you really believe presenting evidence that a plane load of artifacts where removed from the most important archealogical site in the United States, regardless of the motives, would be looked upon in a positive fashion by the locals?
This is a bit different than the removal of a few trinkets from West Boulder Canyon.
If you are interested in the Mormon involvement with Calalus you may want to consider reviewing Eldorado`s post. He had quite the humouros relationship with a member of the church.
Perhaps your being unconvinced is a good thing. Too many folks are convinced as it is. Being passionate is a good thing. With passion great things are possible.
May the stars keep you safe and your trail always follow the starbursts of the heart.
B.
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
Ben,
"Their first port of call was in Florida. I should know its name but for the moment it escapes me."
It was Cale, now Okala. They originally left from Porto Cale, which in the Latin form is Calalus.
If you feel the need for a consultant to finish the book, by all means give me a call.
Take care,
Joe
"Their first port of call was in Florida. I should know its name but for the moment it escapes me."
It was Cale, now Okala. They originally left from Porto Cale, which in the Latin form is Calalus.
If you feel the need for a consultant to finish the book, by all means give me a call.
Take care,
Joe
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
"It was Cale, now Okala". Oops, make that Ocala.
Re: CALALUS
Joe wrote
B - I had planned on a visit to Los Lunas to have a personal look at the Dekalogue stone, but we arrived in NM just in time for a record breaking cold wave and blizzard so that visit will have to be another time. It is a particularly fascinating spot for me.
If you are unwilling or unable to post any photos of the map room or Calalus or Oz, how about something less tangible such as, can you tell the size of the map room? An estimate will do fine for our purposes, and any other details you can recall of that room. Thank you in advance,
Roy <Oroblanco>
I know the "official" version has it that the 'messenger' returned for the golden plates, but I had heard through someone who claimed to be an insider that the story was a cover-up and the book is stored in a vault with only the Elders ever allowed to see it. I asked about how I might go about being allowed a sneak peek, even without a camera and was told that would never be allowed.The Golden Plates have never been available for viewing, because the church doesn't have them.....never did, as far as I remember. Just in case you weren't aware, there has been a Mormon connection to the Tucson artifacts. I would have to find my notes to elaborate.
B - I had planned on a visit to Los Lunas to have a personal look at the Dekalogue stone, but we arrived in NM just in time for a record breaking cold wave and blizzard so that visit will have to be another time. It is a particularly fascinating spot for me.
If you are unwilling or unable to post any photos of the map room or Calalus or Oz, how about something less tangible such as, can you tell the size of the map room? An estimate will do fine for our purposes, and any other details you can recall of that room. Thank you in advance,
Roy <Oroblanco>
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: CALALUS
Hello Oroblanco,
As far as the map room in Oz imagine the trail maps as simply recording one of several important trail systems in the Superstitions and beyond. Imagine the Latin Heart as being copied from a wall with inscriptions explaining the history of the people from their original arrival in the Superstitions till shortly before their exodus. The exact size is not important but the library and map room would easily fit in say a 2000 sq.ft. residence.
I am still curious regarding your opinion of the Latin Heart? Perhaps it should just be ignored. Maybe nothing more than the ramblings of a lonesome cowboy on a star filled night in the Superstitions. Obviously just a chance happening that the Latin Heart, the Trail Maps, and the artifacts in Tucson have symbols that mean the same thing.
And the hundreds of visitors from Europe. Perhaps they visited simply to see the Grand Canyon. Their maps did reflect its existence, as did maps found in Egypt.
A trip to the map room can be arranged if two folks sponsor you. They will have to take responsibility for you. This is the way it has always been. Of course such a trip would require you to lose your illusions. As I mentioned before the children of Calalus are still among you.
Enjoyed our dialogue and wish you success in your book.
B
As far as the map room in Oz imagine the trail maps as simply recording one of several important trail systems in the Superstitions and beyond. Imagine the Latin Heart as being copied from a wall with inscriptions explaining the history of the people from their original arrival in the Superstitions till shortly before their exodus. The exact size is not important but the library and map room would easily fit in say a 2000 sq.ft. residence.
I am still curious regarding your opinion of the Latin Heart? Perhaps it should just be ignored. Maybe nothing more than the ramblings of a lonesome cowboy on a star filled night in the Superstitions. Obviously just a chance happening that the Latin Heart, the Trail Maps, and the artifacts in Tucson have symbols that mean the same thing.
And the hundreds of visitors from Europe. Perhaps they visited simply to see the Grand Canyon. Their maps did reflect its existence, as did maps found in Egypt.
A trip to the map room can be arranged if two folks sponsor you. They will have to take responsibility for you. This is the way it has always been. Of course such a trip would require you to lose your illusions. As I mentioned before the children of Calalus are still among you.
Enjoyed our dialogue and wish you success in your book.
B
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
Roy,
"A trip to the map room can be arranged if two folks sponsor you."
As long as there's no cost involved, Carolyn and I will be happy to "sponsor" you and Beth. We are "folks"......from way back.
Take care,
Joe
"A trip to the map room can be arranged if two folks sponsor you."
As long as there's no cost involved, Carolyn and I will be happy to "sponsor" you and Beth. We are "folks"......from way back.
Take care,
Joe
Re: CALALUS
Joe,
You know you are supposed to keep your identities a secret. As a third level Gatekeeper you gave your word.
Next you will let out of the bag the gold and copper artifacts found under Circlestone.
What is the world coming to?
B
You know you are supposed to keep your identities a secret. As a third level Gatekeeper you gave your word.
Next you will let out of the bag the gold and copper artifacts found under Circlestone.
What is the world coming to?
B
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: CALALUS
Hi Ben,
I do keep my word. I recall ordering 7 T-Shirts for Late49er and others of your group for the first Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous. Of course, you were a no-show. As usual, I paid for the shirts and held up my end of the deal.
I know that others here have showed up for meetings with your gatekeepers, and I assume your gates got stuck......again. You talk a good game about what great people you all are, but the talk never seems to carry over into the reality.
When I tell someone I will be there, you can bet your ass I will show up. Another thing you can be assured of, is that I will always pay my share......and more.
Having said that, I am no part of being a "gatekeeper". That's your little fantasy.
I realize this might seem a bit truculent, but your being syrupy polite only goes so far for those of us who have followed your game here.
On the other hand, I admit to being very entertained by your yarns and knowledge. Positively brilliant! I would like a signed copy of your book if you decide to market it. As always, I will pay for it.
Take care,
Joe
I do keep my word. I recall ordering 7 T-Shirts for Late49er and others of your group for the first Dutch Hunter's Rendezvous. Of course, you were a no-show. As usual, I paid for the shirts and held up my end of the deal.
I know that others here have showed up for meetings with your gatekeepers, and I assume your gates got stuck......again. You talk a good game about what great people you all are, but the talk never seems to carry over into the reality.
When I tell someone I will be there, you can bet your ass I will show up. Another thing you can be assured of, is that I will always pay my share......and more.
Having said that, I am no part of being a "gatekeeper". That's your little fantasy.
I realize this might seem a bit truculent, but your being syrupy polite only goes so far for those of us who have followed your game here.
On the other hand, I admit to being very entertained by your yarns and knowledge. Positively brilliant! I would like a signed copy of your book if you decide to market it. As always, I will pay for it.
Take care,
Joe
Re: CALALUS
Hello Joe,
I know the event your reference was during a short period that things could have been a lot different but because of some very significant reasons, the more pressing being the death of several associates.(Natural I might add), our involvement in your event was impossible. It seems Late offered to pay you for the shirts but I could be wrong. I know it was a difficult time. If that is a problem I will be happy to cut you a check. Just let me know the amount and where to send it.
I do remember several years ago Klondike offered to meet you in Eldorado Canyon but it seems you were unavailable. Something about a day late and a dollar short. Having said that Late, dog, Eldorado and klondike did have and Klondike and dog still do have more going on than the Superstitions and probably have missed an appointment. I do believe anytime they were unavailable they were upfront about the whole thing.
As far as being polite not sure your point. Just seems a natural way to do business. No different than opening the door for a lady or showing respect for one`s heritage or parents. Basically we have had a number of disagreements with you but in general it seems responses have been respectful.
Perhaps you should take the time to look at your own behavior. Some of your posts, as evidenced by the attached, reflects why communication with you is difficult.
I would describe this as the beatings will continue until morale improves approach.
I have always said that John Chunning should have known the LDM if he ever laid eyes on it. It turned out not to be so.
Chunning's dig had no ore in it......of any value. It was not a "Pit" excavation. In all probability, it started out as an animal den, and Chunning simply dug it out.....and then some.
Mr. E. states that he and his "associates/family" have been "removing clues", which equates to deleating/changing history to me. Not the kind of work that anyone should boast of.
While they have been destroying, others have been creating false clues. Both are the endeavors of childish minds. The idea that they believe they have a right to do anything like that, in the Superstitions, is criminal.
The attempt to focus the interest of Dutch Hunters to the northwest portion of the Superstitions hints at the identity of Late's group. The lies that have been told, and are being told, about the LDM will not prevent the truth from becoming known.
I have read Late's posts, even what he deleated. One must wonder why he, or they went down such a convoluted path on this Forum. Was it just spinning a yarn to while away the boredom of a hum-drum life or has it all been done with a purpose?
"The e-mail in question was quite simple and to the point. If you review Late`s post in late 2005 you will see he continually referenced the issue in a hope that some one would step forward acknowledge their mistake and this wonderful history could be made public."
This has been manipulated from the first day that Late posted. If he had anything to offer, it was never going to be "made public". Those first words were false, and I assume the last ones will be the same.
Late made the effort to defend you on this site and at times supported you against some rather sick puppies. He did it because he was a good man, far better than most. Your responses simply made it more and more difficult to involve you as Late intended in the most remarkable historical site in United States.
I still remember one night years ago when Klondike was returning from the Superstitions with well a full load that was later crated and within days left the Phoenix Airport for South Africa, I could only think what a waste. Between some rather nasty folks on Mailaipi and the locals nothing else was possible.
You are right about one thing referencing you as a Gatekeeper was a mistake. That term really is a proud one reserved for those who protected the holy for over a 1000 years in the Superstitions. It was inappropriate to apply the term to you.
Anyway good luck to you and may the stars shine brightly on your trail.
B
I know the event your reference was during a short period that things could have been a lot different but because of some very significant reasons, the more pressing being the death of several associates.(Natural I might add), our involvement in your event was impossible. It seems Late offered to pay you for the shirts but I could be wrong. I know it was a difficult time. If that is a problem I will be happy to cut you a check. Just let me know the amount and where to send it.
I do remember several years ago Klondike offered to meet you in Eldorado Canyon but it seems you were unavailable. Something about a day late and a dollar short. Having said that Late, dog, Eldorado and klondike did have and Klondike and dog still do have more going on than the Superstitions and probably have missed an appointment. I do believe anytime they were unavailable they were upfront about the whole thing.
As far as being polite not sure your point. Just seems a natural way to do business. No different than opening the door for a lady or showing respect for one`s heritage or parents. Basically we have had a number of disagreements with you but in general it seems responses have been respectful.
Perhaps you should take the time to look at your own behavior. Some of your posts, as evidenced by the attached, reflects why communication with you is difficult.
I would describe this as the beatings will continue until morale improves approach.
I have always said that John Chunning should have known the LDM if he ever laid eyes on it. It turned out not to be so.
Chunning's dig had no ore in it......of any value. It was not a "Pit" excavation. In all probability, it started out as an animal den, and Chunning simply dug it out.....and then some.
Mr. E. states that he and his "associates/family" have been "removing clues", which equates to deleating/changing history to me. Not the kind of work that anyone should boast of.
While they have been destroying, others have been creating false clues. Both are the endeavors of childish minds. The idea that they believe they have a right to do anything like that, in the Superstitions, is criminal.
The attempt to focus the interest of Dutch Hunters to the northwest portion of the Superstitions hints at the identity of Late's group. The lies that have been told, and are being told, about the LDM will not prevent the truth from becoming known.
I have read Late's posts, even what he deleated. One must wonder why he, or they went down such a convoluted path on this Forum. Was it just spinning a yarn to while away the boredom of a hum-drum life or has it all been done with a purpose?
"The e-mail in question was quite simple and to the point. If you review Late`s post in late 2005 you will see he continually referenced the issue in a hope that some one would step forward acknowledge their mistake and this wonderful history could be made public."
This has been manipulated from the first day that Late posted. If he had anything to offer, it was never going to be "made public". Those first words were false, and I assume the last ones will be the same.
Late made the effort to defend you on this site and at times supported you against some rather sick puppies. He did it because he was a good man, far better than most. Your responses simply made it more and more difficult to involve you as Late intended in the most remarkable historical site in United States.
I still remember one night years ago when Klondike was returning from the Superstitions with well a full load that was later crated and within days left the Phoenix Airport for South Africa, I could only think what a waste. Between some rather nasty folks on Mailaipi and the locals nothing else was possible.
You are right about one thing referencing you as a Gatekeeper was a mistake. That term really is a proud one reserved for those who protected the holy for over a 1000 years in the Superstitions. It was inappropriate to apply the term to you.
Anyway good luck to you and may the stars shine brightly on your trail.
B
Re: CALALUS
B wrote
As for the Latin hearts, I have no opinion. The provenance is questionable, we cannot prove their origin. If we knew where and when they were found and by whom, as we do with the Calalus artifacts, I would have spent more time researching the matter.
B also wrote
B also wrote
Thank you for the offer of possibly arranging a visit to the map room; I am not free to travel until next fall at earliest, but will not fool you either. If I were able to visit such a map room, I would wish to get photographs and use them in my book, so permission might well be denied if the room is desired to be kept secret. I don't want to deceive you about my interest, it is not solely for personal enlightenment.
Good luck and good hunting to you (and everyone reading this) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
The exact size is not of great importance, however details sometimes can help establish truth versus fiction. Hence my curiosity, it was not intended as a trick question.As far as the map room in Oz <snip> The exact size is not important but the library and map room would easily fit in say a 2000 sq.ft. residence.
As for the Latin hearts, I have no opinion. The provenance is questionable, we cannot prove their origin. If we knew where and when they were found and by whom, as we do with the Calalus artifacts, I would have spent more time researching the matter.
B also wrote
Identical symbols can have very different meanings with different cultures. For an example of this, we need only look at the Raampi symbols only recently discovered in W Africa; they have clear Phoenician connections yet in some cases have very different meanings. I don't make the assumption that two symbols which appear identical, have the identical meaning when we have not established that the two symbols were created by the same culture.Obviously just a chance happening that the Latin Heart, the Trail Maps, and the artifacts in Tucson have symbols that mean the same thing.
B also wrote
This very possibility extends to stone maps and hearts as well; hence we must be cautious about accepting things at face value.While they have been destroying, others have been creating false clues.
Thank you for the offer of possibly arranging a visit to the map room; I am not free to travel until next fall at earliest, but will not fool you either. If I were able to visit such a map room, I would wish to get photographs and use them in my book, so permission might well be denied if the room is desired to be kept secret. I don't want to deceive you about my interest, it is not solely for personal enlightenment.
Good luck and good hunting to you (and everyone reading this) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca