CALALUS

Non LDM treaure hunting and Old West history.
Joe Ribaudo
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CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:20 pm

Interesting story, and here's some information relating to it:

A Reputation in Ruins
By Peter Gilstrap
Published: March 21, 1996
A few days ago, I stopped my car along the side of Silver Bell Road, about seven miles north of Tucson, at the site of a thoroughly dilapidated, 19th-century lime kiln. In addition to a lot of scrub brush and dirt, this is what I found: a twisted tire tread, an empty bag of Purina Cat Chow, a Pepsi bottle, a Styrofoam cup with a green superhero on it and a disintegrating diaper. This is what Charles Manier and his family--out for a little desert quality time in the autumn of 1924--found when they stopped at the same spot: a lot of scrub brush and dirt. As well as two lead crosses weighing 62 pounds, stuck together with wax, emblazoned with Latin inscriptions that seemed to indicate that there had been a Roman-Jewish settlement there around A.D. 700.
After I made my discoveries, I got back into my car, switched the radio to a country station and drove off to get some lunch.

After Charles Manier and his family wrenched their discoveries from the earth, they got back into their car and drove off to begin a bizarre little chapter in Southwestern archaeological history that would see ruined reputations, bitter allegations of fraud, vociferous claims of authenticity, blaring national headlines and at least one great, big mystery, still unsolved to this day.

Whether they got any lunch along the way, I do not know.

Anyone with a library card can read about the alleged Roman relics of Tucson--as I did--in books on oddball archaeology and unexplained tales of nature. Find mentions of Sasquatch, sea serpents, lost gold mines or advanced civilizations that have vanished into thin air, and the relics won't be far behind.

So I got to thinking, as I am wont to do: Hoax or not, whatever happened to these things? Numerous phone calls to Arizona State University and Arizona Historical Society in Tempe led nowhere. Some officials had never heard of the story, others revealed only vague, cryptic knowledge; none had any idea where the artifacts were. Until a gentleman at the Tucson branch of the historical society got on the line.

"Sure, we have 'em here."
Could I see them?
"No problem."

Though that doesn't seem like too much detective work, even the mighty Arizona Republic was stonewalled. In an article on AZ legends dated January 28, the paper quoted University of Arizona archaeology professor James Reid: "[T]he artifacts ... Disappeared but may be in the Phoenix area. ... I would dearly, dearly love to see them."

Hey, doc, me too. And I did, as well as talking with one devoted expert on the relics who had yet to lay eyes on them, one who didn't know where they were and another who gasped with disbelief when I revealed that I'd had an audience with the enigmatic remains.

"You're kidding! Who did you talk to? Who set this up? I didn't know they were allowing the press to see them--you're opening up a Pandora's box!"

And so the story goes ...
More than 70 years ago, a baffled Charles Manier bore a cross over to the Arizona State Museum and showed it to an archaeologist named Karl Ruppert, who accompanied Manier to the site the next day. Digging into the side of a small ridge at a depth about five feet beneath the surface (afact that would propone the notion that these items had been in the ground for quite a while), they found a seven-pound chunk of caliche--a hard soil cemented by calcium carbonate--curiously inscribed and dated A.D. 800. A long time ago.

Now we will meet Thomas Bent, lawyer, friend of Manier and owner of this magical piece of roadside desert property. Shovels inhand, the two men spent the ensuing months excavating swords, spears and crosses, finds that ranged in execution from crude to not-so-crude, most engraved with Latin and Hebrew inscriptions.

And a few more pros from the university were on hand to help out.
Enter Dr. Andrew E. Douglass, father of dendrochronology (that's dating by tree rings), Ruppert, assistant director of the State Museum, Dr. Frank Fowler, professor of classical languages, and Emil W. Haury, an archaeology student at the university.

Opinions on the authenticity of the finds would ricochet within this group, as they would between institutions, including the Smithsonian and the British Museum. But, according to an article in the Tucson Citizen from February 1925, these officials "have interested themselves in aiding the finders unravel the mystery of the Latin-inscribed crosses."

The article went on to say that "when the first cross was discovered ... The professors at the university were inclined to discount the importance of the find, in the belief that the inscription was the work of some religious fanatic or hermit, although unquestionably a man of education and skill in the art of engraving."

But then Dr. Byron Cummings, dean of the Archaeological Department at the University of Arizona and the director of the State Museum, certainly among the heaviest of hitters--archaeologically speaking--in the Southwest, returned from a dig in Mexico. Immediately, he dove deep into the excavation, and even deeper into the controversy that would dog him for the rest of his career. His determination? Cummings was a believer!

In December of 1925, he issued a statement saying the relics "were, without question, authentic." The dean wouldn't reveal just how old the objects were, yet he did claim that "the old relics have undoubtedly been in existence for several hundred years long before the first Spanish conquistadors entered the country."

Cummings packed up ten of the sexiest relics and headed for the American Association for the Advancement of Science meetings in Kansas City--and then went on to various eastern museums and universities to let his cynical colleagues have a firsthand gawk.

For a lot of people, the highly respected opinion of Dean Cummings was the last word in accuracy.

But not for everybody.

Let's examine what most folks were looking to 70 years ago for their information on the subject, the newspapers. At this point, the implements--Roman or not--were well outof the ground; statements were being made, sides taken. Things are about to become confusing, as headline wars begin to rage.

"ROMAN RELICS FOUND HERE BAFFLE SCIENCE" screamed Tucson's Arizona Daily Star on Sunday morning, December 13, 1925. On the same day, the New York Times broke the story for the other side of the country with an A1 lead declaring "PUZZLING RELICS DUG UP IN ARIZONA STIR SCIENTISTS," but took a more skeptical stance in the piece than did the Star, quoting established eastern archaeological authorities--who, it was implied, just maybe knew a little bit more than their cohorts out there in the still Wild West. Beginning to smell a professional tiff?

Then, a shameful 24 hours later, the December 14 evening edition of the Tucson Citizen jumped in with "LEADEN RELICS GENUINE, STATES U. OF A. ARCHAEOLOGIST, WHO REPLIES TO DOUBTING THOMASES."

Miffed at missing the Big Scoop inits own hometown, and despite a headline tending in the other direction, the Citizen sided with the Times. The tardy Tucson paper offered Cummings' faithful statements of authenticity, but added quotes from Dr. N.M. Judd, curator of the National Museum in Washington, D.C., who just happened to be in Tucson on a family visit and made himself available to examine the finds.

According to Judd--who never questioned Cummings' abilities--they were "unquestionably fraudulent." Ouch.

Now the fan is on, and increasingly largebits of nasty matter are traveling toward it.

"RELICS ARE CRIBBED FROM DICTIONARY GLOSSARY, CHARGED; ONE PHRASE TAKEN FROM CAESAR" sniffed the December 15 attack from the Citizen. "Can it be possible that the learned geologists, archaeologists and classicists who have vouched for this discovery have been imposed upon?" queried the paper. The problem here, undoubtedly a major one, centered on the discovery that many of the phrases on the relics were readily available in common Latin textbooks in use at the time. Not to mention the "Glossary of Foreign Words, Phrases, etc." in the back of "the Standard Dictionary."

Also, it was pointed out, the abbreviation "A.D." (anno Domini), inscribed on at least two of the crosses, did not come into use until roughly A.D. 1000, long after the relicshad supposedly been brought to the desert.

The Daily Star was beginning to look not so good. But the paper opted for righteous, blind loyalty on December 23: "IF DEAN CUMMINGS SAYS THEY'RE GENUINE, THEY ARE, DECLARE TUCSONANS."

Take that, Mr. New York Times, Mr. Tucson Citizen.

But wait.
Our friends Bent and Manier are cooling their perplexed-but-still-believing heels back in Tucson, and 25 of the relics are on display in the Tucson Bank Building. The "earliest evidence of white man in America," reads a big sign outside the door; it costs adults 25cents to view the icons; for children, it's a mere dime.

And then the January 19, 1926, edition of the Times brings up another stumbling block. Seems that one Leandro Ruiz, an aging Tucson cattleman, remembers "an educated young Mexican sculptor and student of the classics who lived with his parents at the lime kiln forty years ago."

Young Timotio Odohui and his folks had allegedly been driven out of their native land by the revolution after the French invasion of Mexico. Ruiz recalled that the gifted Timotio not only had a way with sculpting and access to Latin texts, but he was greatly interested in buried treasure.

On March 1, 1926, the Star carried thisgrave announcement:

"Financial support of the University of Arizona for the further excavation of the land along Silver Bell Road ... has been withdrawn, according to an announcement last night by Dean Byron Cummings."

Six days later, the battle-scarred dean told the Star of the "possibility that the tablets may have been buried by a member of the Mormon faith to perpetuate the story given in the Book of Mormon which claims the Indians of America as direct descendants of the ancient Israelites."

From ancient Romans to a clever Mexican lad to conniving Mormons, the relics had quite a trip. Is there any chance at all that they were, as originally claimed, minted a few hundred years after Christ walked the Earth?

Nope.
But that is where one mystery ends and another begins.

So who put the damn things out there in the desert, and why? "That's the bottom line that still persists," says Tucson archaeologist Chris Hardaker. "There's a whole bunch of weird things to this. There are no answers, man, just one huge enigma."

To this day, no one has taken credit for the hoax. Not so much as a pinkie has been pointed at any likely suspects; specifically--in case you're wondering--not at Manier or Bent.

"You've got this wonderful, enigmatic Mexican, first of all, but why would he want to bury them and then wait 40years for someone maybe to come along and find them?" asks Hardaker. "If you look into hoaxes and frauds--especially archaeological hoaxes--it's kind of like an arsonist wants to see his own fire, he wants to see all these guys made into idiots."

Hardaker, who has studied the case for years and was acquainted with Thomas Bent Jr., continues:

"The motivational aspects are fascinating, and what it comes down to, the most reasonable, logical thing is that they were being planted at the time they were being dug up. Where this gets embarrassing is that you had A.E. Douglass involved in this, and he's god [in Tucson]. He was also a Freemason [it's been suggested that the artifacts bore some Masonic threads] ... He'd be my central figure, but I don't know what he'd be doing it for, if he did it at all.

"Bent, he was a lawyer who was helping the [World War I] vets down here. Through all of his actions, all of his concerns and work, I can't see him as being a hoaxer. His family got blown apart with this; his wife hated all this stuff, he suffered a lot. And Manier, on the other hand, well, he was out there one day, a retiree just goofing off with his family, when he just happened to find this.

"And if there's something deeper and darker to this, I don't know. I don't know if the trails would really lead to anything."

Though the story of the artifacts has essentially faded from the public eye, it makes you wonder why the archaeological community hasn't pursued the investigation with technology that was not available in the '20s.

"I think the bottom line is that a lot of people say, 'It's a hoax, and if it's a hoax, I don't want to deal with it.' And my feeling on that is that archaeologists should be detectives, regardless," says Hardaker. "My peers over at [the Arizona State Museum] essentially look upon it--at least they used to--as a great deal of embarrassment to the credibility of the Southwest. If you're hip to basketball, there's an eastern group, and then maybe the West is like the little brother. This is how it's kind of been with East Coast and West Coast archaeology."

Archaeologist Peter Steere, congressional archivist and manuscript librarian at the University of Arizona, sums it up quite neatly.

"Most professional archaeologists turn their noses up at this sort of stuff," offers Steere, whose nose has been down far enough for him to lecture on the subject, and even to mount a show on the artifacts a few years ago.

"My interest in them is that they're a part of the local folklore, a part of archaeology folklore, and a part of the history of southern Arizona," he explains. "And, obviously, what's interesting is that it became a very acrimonious situation, and there were a lot of people from the university involved, plus the private parties that were involved, and the on-again, off-again [public] interest in these things over the years."

For all his knowledge, Steere has no clue as to the big who-or-why questions, but he presents simple reasoning for disbelieving the relics are Roman-Jewish.

"If there was this hypothetical group of Roman-Jewish colonists living on the northwest side of Tucson--even if it was asmall group there for a short period--we'dhave some other evidence. And there's nothing. There's never been anything before, never been anything since. And that, to me as a professional archaeologist, is the most disturbing question."

You've heard from yellowed newspaper clippings and contemporary experts, but there is still one party to be consulted. A source that was there at the time; in fact, the element that has been responsible for this whole tale.

We are now going to travel into the basement of the Arizona Historical Society in Tucson, beneath the exhibits of wagon wheels, period dresses and guns, into a room awash in bright fluorescent light, to visit the relics themselves.

There, 30 pieces are laid out, each in its own formfitted spot, in five, yellow-painted wooden cases constructed by Mr. Bent himself. Every artifact is tied down with swaths of white gauze; the effect is dainty, delicate anda little ceremonial. A tasteful resting place. Afew have sloppy, crude edges, but most are refined. There are the famous inscriptions in the dull lead faces, lots of Latiny sideways "V" shapes, lots of simple drawings of angels, crowns, serpents. There's a Menorah engraved on an object that looks like a paddle, and a number of columned buildings.

I can imagine how Bent and Manier felt; I'd be fairly wigged-out myself, finding these strange prizes in the middle of nowhere.

I stare at them. I touch one, run my fingers along a phrase that's probably from a Latin textbook. I get in close, and smell the thing. I get a big whiff of plywood, which, I find, is how I'll remember them later.

Collections manager Mark Santiago, the man who has allowed me into this inner sanctum, says that Thomas Bent Jr. donated them to the historical society two years ago. Bent had them at his house for the last 40 years. I am not allowed to photograph them--Bent's stipulation--and I am the first reporter to see them since they arrived here. No one else has asked.

What is the future of the relics?
"The one thing that we'll try to do, if we get a grant or whatever, is to try to have them analyzed by a metallurgist," Santiago explains. "If it's possible to take a sample of the lead and see when it was smelted, then that should end it right there. But even if you did that, it still won't solve the central mystery of why and who."

A grant is something Hardaker, among others, would dearly love to get--quickly. There are plans to widen Silver Bell Road, which would either force renewed excavations or obliterate the site where Roman Jews supposedly dropped their crosses once and for all.

A few minutes later, Santiago has to go photocopy something, and he leaves me alone with the pieces. I try to concentrate on them, see if I can establish some psychic channel with ... an ancient Roman, a Mexican kid, a religious fanatic or hermit, maybe some unknown prankster in history. It's quiet in there, real quiet as 30 pieces of lead stare up at me.

And I don't hear a thing.
No dusty whispers from 15 centuries ago. Not even a 100-year-old smirk.
--Gilstrap

JIM HAMRICK
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Re: CALALUS

Postby JIM HAMRICK » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:15 am

Joe, think you posting this information. I have heard the tale since my teen age years but you have helped fill out the information that I knew. Many years ago I saw an article about these pieces and they either had photes or sketches of them in the magazine.

I beleive that the history of this state has much left to be written, where the trail leads might suprise manny.

jim hamrick

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:32 am

Jim,

Good to see you here. Hope you are doing well and will make it to the next Rendezvous. 2009s was a really great event.

I have had a casual interest in Calalus for many years. Never believed a word of it, but found it to be one hell of a story. Here is a site for a pretty good article:

http://www.flavinscorner.com/fe2.htm

It's down a ways on the page, so you can bypass most of the "Fell" stuff.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:05 pm

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

I remember the first time I saw the relics, the sense of trajedy was overwhelming. It still is.

Calalus is not located near Silverbell Road. Those relics were dropped by a band of survivors heading east to settle in what would one day become the states of Georgia, Tennessee, and eventually as far as New York.

Some would eventually return home to Europe. You folks seem to be interested in one of her descendents, Jake Walzer.

Calalus is in Arizona. It lies in a well watered valley, west of Tucson. Her underground workings remain intact.

Interesting the author of your article did not know that assays were made on the artifacts. The most important results of those assays were the lack of radioactivity and minute copper traces from probably the Bisbee area.

There are additional misstatements but none of real consequence.

Oz, Coronado Mesa, Circlestone, Calalus, The Superstitions are all about the same thing. Until you understand the whole the individual pieces will just lay there in front of you as meaningless clutter on Silverbell Road.

Just as this picture contains meaningless clutter unless one appreciates what the picture is of.

These symbols are the last thing a searcher of this century saw before the locals rearranged him.

As Late said there is a beautiful history in those mountains you just have to be ready to see it.

Now I really have to go. Just figure it out. The trail to Calalus takes you home to the mystery of the Superstitions.


Klondike
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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:27 pm

I should have said the last century.


Klondike

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:39 pm

Ben,

It's been obvious for a long time now, that you have nowhere else to go with this yarn. Still waiting for the book version. You keep coming back here, because we still talk to you. Where else in the world could you garner that kind of constant attention?

Over the years, this has become the closest thing I have seen to Queen Scheherazade's "Thousand and One Nights". Like the old Persian King, I can't wait for the next story. I would like to see you expand on the Jacob Waltz, as a gatekeeper theme.

It seems to me that story would be a fertile field of endeavor for an imaginative mind like yours. I imagine an unrequited love attraction between Jake and Ms. Martin would be a real winner, perhaps with movie deals waiting in the wings.

Because of our long association, I will, of course, expect an advance draft and one of the first copies (signed) off the presses.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Cubfan64 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:12 am

Klondike said...

Interesting the author of your article did not know that assays were made on the artifacts. The most important results of those assays were the lack of radioactivity and minute copper traces from probably the Bisbee area.


I haven't seen any assays in print of the items found that mention copper - mostly I see comments about an alloy of lead, antimony, silver, gold and tin. Can you point me to a source I can contact to find out more about any analyses done on the items?

Thanks Klondike.

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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:31 am

Hello Cubfan,

I would start with the report created by Thomas Bent and distributed to a number of universities. Dad had a copy. I will see if I can find a copy and locate where the work was done. I believe Bent`s report included the analysis. I could be wrong but more than likely that is where it came from.

Who knows maybe Salt Lake. :lol:

From what I can remember all but a few of the objects were composed of lead, antimony, tin, gold and silver. Those exceptions were made of copper.

The lack of radioactivity is importent because it can date the lead. Basically it means the items were quite old.

Also the location of the artifacts in the hillside is something to look into. The artifacts were discovered at a depth of about 6 feet. Directly above them were found items dating pre-Columbian. And on the surface remains from the 19th century.

If you can locate the comments of several of the geologists involved in all of this they indicated the date of deposition around 600A.D.

I would also locate the observations of Dr. C.J. Sarla, Neil Merton Judd,Dean G.M. Butler and Dr. Bryon Cummings.

For us these artifacts are not about science. They are about the holy. One of the tests ran on the artifacts found human remains. Later more sophisticated tests were done at a major university. The remains were not locals.

But then again we knew that all along.

So then where is Calalus. It is in Arizona west of Tucson. It is right under you feet.


Klondike

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:57 pm

Paul,

Since you are interested, I have sent you one of the articles I have on the Tucson "Artifacts". It's around 25 pages if you print it out, but it's coming in an email, so you can decide if you want to have a hard copy.

I have researched Calalus for some time now and have many articles on the subject. This one should satify just about anyone. Pay close attention to the names of the people that Ben has cited here. You will find them in the article.

If you want a little more, I have a shorter article that I could email you. I would ask that you read what I am sending you, and then offer an opinion here.

It's interesting reading, at least it was for me.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Cubfan64 » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:05 pm

Thanks Joe - I may have already read one of those articles as I have a number of things I've read as well.

I'll get back to you when I have time to sit down and try to absorb at least some of it :)

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Cubfan64 » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:57 am

Hi Joe,

Thanks for the e-mail and article. I thought it looked familiar - I have a friend at work who is working on a PhD and has access to a University Research site that has loads of Journals. He was nice enough to offer me access to the research site and I've found a number of interesting articles - this one was one of the ones I had printed out and read late last year.

It's very hard to argue with the extent to which Burgess researched the whole issue of the Tucson artifacts - in my opinion, he really did a fantastic job of gathering as much as he was able and then compiling it all into a well annotated document.

The conclusions certainly point strongly towards the items being less than 150 years old and that the whole thing could very well have been a hoax.

I've wanted to get ahold of a copy of Thomas Bent's report myself in order to see the whole thing through his eyes and compare it to facts of the situation.

Things like this are never easy to figure out because quite often even in the scientific community, people tend to interpret data with preconceived notions. I've seen it happen so many times at work that it's become a running joke that instead of submitting samples to us for analysis, the customers should just submit the samples along with a list of what results they want because ultimately they often find a way to skew what we give them to satisfy their own preconceived ideas anyways.

I'm certainly not saying that's the case with the Tucson artifacts, but it is something I try hard to keep in mind.

Have you ever had any luck getting ahold of the actual Bent report Joe? If so, can you point me to where you may have found it?

Thanks again for the link!

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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:52 am

Hello Paul,

"We do not see things the way they are; we see them the way we are"

For some folks this has been an academic debate since the discovery on Silver Bell Road. For us it has always been about something far more importent.

For us this is our heritage and we have done many things for many, many years to keep safe the things that our forefathers left behind.

The artifacts disappeared for many years. Time enough for them to be well adjusted. That is why I referenced you to the folks that were initially involved in all of this. Their grasp of the truth is the best one will find.

Also some of the tests I mentioned were only possible if the artifacts were well protected. From time to time it has served us that folks believe the artifacts are fakes, now it is close to the time they should be understood.

Who knows I would imagine that someone who will visit Calalus might also see the Tucson artifacts.

The folks in Tucson have what well they need. A genuine replication similar to the copies of the Declaration of Independence with a few minor changes. :lol:

To allow the money changers outside the temple to hold something this holy is well not acceptable. Never has been.

They have enjoyed it for years. :lol:

Who are we to take that away from them.

Now the time for talking is over. A field trip will answer everything.


Klondike

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:57 pm

Ben,

"We do not see things the way they are; we see them the way we are" (David Pilbeam)

I am surprised that a professor would not cite his source for a quote. On the other hand, it's nice to know you are paying attention to the subject.

"Now the time for talking is over. A field trip will answer everything."

You have made this offer, and others, many times. In every case, that I know of, you are a no show or no follow-through. 8O

What it's really time for, is an end to your empty offers. If I thought there was an ounce of truth in any of your stories, I would come out of Superstition Mountains retirement and make one more trip. At this point, I would need more than your word.

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:09 pm

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Good to hear from you.

I didn`t realize fortune cookies required specific acknowledgements but neverless a good catch.

I have to say that particular article was a good read. Seems pretty convincing.

Fascinating seeing several gatekeepers being used as source material to prove the artifacts are false.

Of course one might think that if the area is comprised simply of geological strata dated between 10,000 and 2,000,000 years ago one would have to wonder how directly above the artifacts pre-Columbian artifacts were found and 19th century items were located directly below the surface.

Seems folks for a long, long time have been inserting items into the ground on Silverbell Road. A virtual time vault that many cultures must have been attracted to.

And just think if the artifacts were inserted by some devious person or persons how did they know where to insert them?

If the insertion was random then the artifacts would have been found mixed with pre-columbian artifacts or perhaps arrowheads, etc.,

Well what can one say. The bees have been there for a long time. Imagine that is why the bees wax was left behind. You remember the wax don`t you. Pretty much the same wax left over other artifacts left in Little Boulder Canyon.

Sorry you can`t make the visit to Calalus. Having said that we have pretty well telegraphed the location so that someone capable of figuring out four of the six Stone Maps should be able to beat us there.

Good luck on the Ruth business. A real stellar group of folks involved in that mess. The cream of Arizona.

Klondike

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:08 pm

Ben,

"Sorry you can`t make the visit to Calalus. Having said that we have pretty well telegraphed the location so that someone capable of figuring out four of the six Stone Maps should be able to beat us there."

I must have missed something. I thought you, as well as all the other "gatekeepers" had been there years ago. I was under the impression you had done all you could for the site(s) and were, basically, relegated to minding the garden. :?

Among the Apache it is believed that "Wisdom Sits in Places". It is the places that remain sacred long after the man made artifacts are gone. Why do you, potentially, desecrate the holy places by showing the way to those who would defile them? If there is any truth in the stories you have spun here, you have lost any power that was passed on by the ancestors.

I would not want to be in your....place.

Good luck,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:48 am

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Hope things are well with you.

Our favorite garden and Oz exist in the Superstition Mountains. The flowers are in the Roger`s Canyon area, Oz of course is, what is left of it, under Coronado Mesa.

Calalus is west of the Superstitions on land we own. You are always welcome. Without an invitation visiting is probably not the healthiest thing one can do.

The souls of our forefathers who perished in the Canyon of the Souls have been freed and what is importent to us is in South Africa.

What is holy has always been the people. They are safe.

Good luck to you also and may the stars always keep you safe. Did you know that at night there is a portal at Circlestone that is a direct bearing to Calalus?

I think the locals have been too busy killing each other for hundreds of years to simply see what has always been right in front of them.


Klondike

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:00 pm

Ben,

I hope all is well with you also.

I have seen no evidence to support the authenticity of the Tucson Artifacts, and I have looked for a number of years.

The Masonic symbolism and, by extension, the Mormon connection is not easily explained. The only explanation for the total lack of interest in any follow-up research into the artifacts, would play into your contention that it is all holy and sacred, and not meant to be revealed.

Your participation here, and nowhere else, seems to negate the secrecy angle. Logic seems to dictate that we are receiving the attention of someone with a wonderful imagination and occasional periods of boredom.

The kicker is.......there is no (once again) logical explanation for the story you have spun here over the years.

The path you chose from the beginning was, at first, a believable lie, which quickly evolved into Calalus and a story worthy of Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, hopefully minus his obsession with little girls.

I remain and interested non-believer in Calalus.

Take care,

Joe

klondike
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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Sat May 01, 2010 12:52 pm

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Your points are all well taken except the comments about the little girls. That does seem a little bit over the edge.

Have to say I have always felt it a bit odd that folks have no problem in believing small mysteries but prefer to look the other way at big mysteries or simply ignore them. It is almost if our brains are hard wired to accept what is small but reject what is truly astonishing.

For example Mr. Ruth. What really is the point. That mystery is a small one and can easily be solved by digging out the mine in Boulder Canyon. Within that mine is every answer that folks have been questioning for many, many years. Of course the answers lead to other questions, questions that lead places that most folks would prefer not to go.

A gatekeeper, years ago, retrieved items from there that dealt with Oz. Being a gentleman he left everything intact along with 3 gold bars. The shell casings, and button are all there.

Also the items in Tucson. Some of the first discoverers were astonished about the find and could see what would soon be covered up by stupidity, politics, and the desire to believe the gospel according to the prevailing academic mythology. Have to say we helped with that. 8)

I have to say there is a degree of humor with all of that. My Grandfather`s initials were carved on one of the relics that were returned to those kind folks in Tucson.

Proof has always been in short supply because to present definitive proof on this type of forum would create enormous problems for us. Happily the folks that knew the truth destroyed a lot of underground workings on Mailaipi, giving us time to do what was needed.

I suspect all the proof that anyone would ever want to see will be out there soon enough. The one thing that will not happen is those special places will never have a Hilton, a Burger King and a Ameriindian Casino right across from the main entrance.

Anyway have a good life and take care.


Klondike

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sat May 01, 2010 1:49 pm

Ben,

OK, lets just take one of your claims:

"For example Mr. Ruth. What really is the point. That mystery is a small one and can easily be solved by digging out the mine in Boulder Canyon. Within that mine is every answer that folks have been questioning for many, many years. Of course the answers lead to other questions, questions that lead places that most folks would prefer not to go."

Which mine are you talking about? Can you provide a location (Mark it on a topo.)? Do you have a picture or pictures?

I can assure you I know a number of people who would follow up on such a claim.

This is where you always tap-dance away from your claims and start with absurd excuses.

You could have put me on your side years ago, simply by keeping your word and sending me a copy of the Sims Ely signature page, from the signed book you claimed to have. Starting your story with a series of lies did not endear you to many folks.

A man would have to be a fool to believe anything you say or write. On the other hand, it's almost as good as "Alice In Wonderland".

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

klondike
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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Wed May 12, 2010 6:16 am

Mr. Ribaudo,

I can understand your frustrations but this is about a lot more than trinkets.

As far as the Ruth business goes the location of the mine is not such a secret. In fact I understand several locals are about to complete the deed as this is being written.

Do you remember the country song about friends in low places. All of the low places in this mess are at the top. Understand that and you can put it together. 8)

The folks who got paid did really, really well. The folks at the bottom got what they always get blood and sand.

Take Care,

Klondike

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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Wed May 12, 2010 9:44 am

Ben,

"I can understand your frustrations but this is about a lot more than trinkets."

You do view your impact on me, as well as this Forum, in a slightly elevated sense of importance. The only time I give Ben Davis a thought, is when you post another chapter in your ongoing fantasy.

Frustration is hardly the word for the limited feelilngs you envoke. Amusement would be much closer to any quasi-emotion. Just as your posts are a diversion from what seems a mundane life of boredom, which seems closer to the defination of frustration, my replies are a feeble attempt to keep the amusement factor as high as possible.

This is just my personal opinion after observing your erratic behavior over the years. That being said, my assessment of you could be wrong.......but I doubt it. There is just too much evidence to base my conclusions on.

I do hope that your body of work here is simply a result of what I have written above. It would be sad indeed if it was a result of long term drug use or some kind of clinical dementia. :wink:

I do wish you the best,

Joe Ribaudo

klondike
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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Fri May 14, 2010 8:48 am

Hello Mr. Ribaudo,

Well let`s see little boys, drug use, and dementia. Not sure what all of this has to do with Calalus but it is what it is.

Wonder why your mind goes to those places. The Superstitions always struck me as being far more beautiful and interesting. I guess each to their own. And who am I to criticize you for circling those topics.

I really don`t believe anyone should over estimate their importance. After all we are only here a short time anyway.

History will judge each of us according to our merits.

One day the Superstitions will be celebrated for far more that simply murder, mayhem, and the butchery that folks seem to drift to.

Anyway have a good life and may the stars always shine brightly on your trail.

Take Care,

Klondike

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Fri May 14, 2010 10:26 am

Ben,

"Well let`s see little boys, drug use, and dementia. Not sure what all of this has to do with Calalus but it is what it is."

That's an interesting comment. Perhaps you can quote me on the "little boys" in relation to Calalus part of it. Kind of brings the "dementia" appellation into focus.......doesn't it? :wink:

Considering your own string of strange posts on this Forum, you might want to spend less time worrying about my state of mind, and give some thought to your own. Reality bites for some people, and you are a classic example of that. :roll:

You provide a great deal of amusement here, what with "exposing" all of these fairly well known sites to the old timers, while adding your own "Calalus" spin to the locations. All of the sites you referred to, as Late, were well known to many of us. You may remember that bit of embarrassment, which you promptly deleted.
In every life there, hopefully, are brief moments of clarity. 8O

You have enough people playing along with your personal fantasy, so you don't really need me on your "team". I am flattered that you have worked so hard to convince me of your "facts", over the years but have to tell you, it just ain't going to happen.

If just seeing "Oz" would do it, I would have been convinced years ago. :lol:

Take care,

Joe

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Re: CALALUS

Postby klondike » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:44 pm

N34 3.47
w112 39.67
2475

Decalogue stone, New Mexico, New Jersey

Soloman, The Trail Maps

The Gates of Calalus

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Postby Joe Ribaudo » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:25 pm

Ben,

Big fan of Hibben? No surprise there. 8O

Joe Ribaudo