CALALUS

Non LDM treaure hunting and Old West history.
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alan m
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Re: CALALUS

Post by alan m »

Hello Oroblanco
Thank-you for the tip and source for further study, I will pursue it.
You are much more knowlegable in geology than I am and I appreciate the response.
I knw that the superstitions did not form during the cambrian period but I thought it may have been possible for the upthrust of the mountains to expose a cambrian layer that would have been much deeper, however on reflection, if the Superstiton's represent a caldera then it seems unlikely that any cambrian layer would have remained intact.
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Alan
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco »

Muchas gracias amigo for the very kind words, but I am still learning geology so don't take my word as 'gospel' on it. I would also like to recommend a different resource on the geology of the Superstitions rather than the USGS studies; the USGS studies tend to run a little bit 'technical' for most folks.
http://superstitionmountain.info/chroni ... 20_08.html
<Geology of the Superstitions, by Tom Kollenborn>

There could very well be Cambrian age rock layers in the Superstitions, which might be covered by later deposits or could be exposed in an uplift, I don't know of any but I am sure the Tom K could answer this as he is extremely knowledgeable on the Superstitions geology.

Good luck and good hunting to you Alan, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Oroblanco,

In my post last night I failed to mention how much I enjoyed your photograh and the referencing of books that speak to, as you say, "documentation supporting ancient visitors for the Old world to the new. I look forward to reading Aristotle`s work. As you are aware Aristotle was Plato`s student, and I have to say I have always believed that everything since Plato, I would include Aristotle, is only footnotes. Perhaps that represents a prejudice that is totally unwarrented.

I had a opportunity to speak with Klondike last night in reference to our discussions and he had a good point. Even today geologists do not agree as to what was the cause of the greatest gold deposit in the world. That being the Rand in South Africa. He believes the Rand deposit was essientially formed by organic matter that precipitated the gold out of solution. He laughed and said if the Rand was formed by plant or bug shit, what does it really matter how the matchbox ore was formed.

And really at the end of the day what does it matter. Does the matchbox ore come from an epithermal deposit with a high quartz temperature gradient. Yes it is. Is it associated with a known caldera complex in the Superstitions. Yes. From a geological perspective the tip off is the mineral suite that is a part of the deposit. And yes there is tellerium in the deposit.

It is good to see the discussion move from focusing on the quartz crystallization temperatures to more understable language. It seems we are in agreement that particle size and quart crystallization temperaturs are important deposit indicators but no more. The most important constituent of a deposit is the mineral suite. Also keep in mind that a epithermal deposit can grade into a mesothermal deposit at depth.

I would suspect you have seen at least a portion of an assay from ore that came from the same deposit as the matchbox ore. One that was taken years ago. Perhaps Glover`s analysis was only needed to confirm the previous assay which was not quite accurate enough to prove conclusively it was dutchman ore.

But see even these discussions tend to be a bit worthless. Does anyone seriously believe that Jack Waltzer was only involved in one mine in the Superstitions. Based on my limited knowledge I would say he was involved in at least 5, and well other things. Have to say I did enjoy Glovers`s Map showing where Jake was spotted in the range. Particularly the Holmes sighting. :D
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Oroblanco,

Sorry to split my response in several portions but the longer these things get the more difficult it is for me to stay focused. Being 62 does slow one down a bit. Not so much the age I suspect as the mileage. Believe Indiana Jones said that, have to agree. That and losing some dear friends, Eldorado, Late and our two associates from Mesa.

Klondike asked me to share another thought with you that really is not a geology question but does I think reflect a rather thoughtful point. He said folks should consider that if Oz does not exist and Calalus is just a myth no one has really lost anything, but if it is all real then we lose nothing, our heritage is safe, the rest of you on the other hand lose a great deal. Perhaps it is better to believe that Oz exists rather than it does not. Such a belief would go a long way in its appearance. We have dealt with quite the crew of crazies for a long, long time. It is refreshing to speak with someone with a critical mind yet realizies what can be gained. A degree of decency and politeness goes a long way. You do not offend anyone over here with your questions, we will answer what we can and simply point you in the right direction when possible.

Also keep in mind there are always two sides to history and in this case we won. The only question is really whether or not you folks will also win. We tried that route several times in the past and obviously it did not work. Tell me why and speak hopefully from your heart why would it work now?

Respectfully

B
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco »

Hola amigos,

At the risk of taking this still farther off-topic, I have to add a bit here.

Alan - on checking, there are Cambrian age rocks in the Superstition Wilderness area; here is a relevant extract from the USGS study done in
Paleozoic rocks

Thick sections of Paleozoic sedimentary rocks are found in areas east and
southeast of the Superstition Mountains, but only a few small isolated faulted
blocks lie within the wilderness. These blocks, consisting of rocks of
Cambrian, Devonian, and Mississippian age, are found near the southeast edge
of the study area. It is likely that the Paleozoic rocks had originally been
deposited throughout much or all of the area of the Superstition Mountains,
but they were removed by erosion along with parts of the Proterozoic rocks
during Mesozoic time prior to deposition of volcanic and sedimentary rocks of
Tertiary age, which generally rest directly on Proterozoic rocks.
So there are at least some blocks of Cambrian age rock, which could be an avenue to pursue in the quest.

B wrote
I had a opportunity to speak with Klondike last night in reference to our discussions and he had a good point. Even today geologists do not agree as to what was the cause of the greatest gold deposit in the world. That being the Rand in South Africa. He believes the Rand deposit was essientially formed by organic matter that precipitated the gold out of solution. He laughed and said if the Rand was formed by plant or bug shit, what does it really matter how the matchbox ore was formed.

And really at the end of the day what does it matter. Does the matchbox ore come from an epithermal deposit with a high quartz temperature gradient. Yes it is. Is it associated with a known caldera complex in the Superstitions. Yes. From a geological perspective the tip off is the mineral suite that is a part of the deposit. And yes there is tellerium in the deposit.
I remain respectfully in disagreement as to the nature of Dutchman ore; I find it to be most like Hypothermal in character or perhaps Mesothermal, and not like Epithermal on several grounds. However the classification one calls Dutchman ore is not overly important except in helping to determine what sort of deposit one is likely to find and where are the best places to look.

As this part of our discussion has shifted to a discussion of the Lost Dutchman much more than anything to do with Calalus, I suggest starting a new thread in the appropriate section of this forum.

B also wrote
Also keep in mind there are always two sides to history and in this case we won. The only question is really whether or not you folks will also win. We tried that route several times in the past and obviously it did not work. Tell me why and speak hopefully from your heart why would it work now?
There are few guarantees in this world, no one can guarantee that revealing the exact location(s) of Oz and/or Calalus would not result in some disastrous destruction. On the other hand, depending on the sites location remaining secret as the main protection against looting and vandalism has largely failed with many other historic sites, hence my reasoning for arguing to show the world what you say is there. The sites will get better protection if the government (and 'we the people') know about them and can thus provide legal and physical barriers against looting and vandalism. It is a case of what can happen if you do nothing, versus what can happen if you do something. The decision rests with you and your associates, of course there is always the risk that some member of your group will "let the cat out of the bag" at some point to the wrong ears, resulting in a disaster to the sites. I don't seek personal aggrandizement out of your sites, though I did state my intention would be to photograph and publish it; I would just as soon someone else should get those photographs and publish the knowledge rather than keeping it as some sort of 'secret society' special knowledge. We the people have a right to know our true history, 'warts and all' as they say and even if this means a major revision of our history books and some careers may get besmirched, it needs to be told.

I will get off my soapbox now! :wink:
Oroblanco
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Oroblanco,

Thank you for your response. You have given us much to think about. We have two visitors to the sites that must take priority. These two fine folks impressed Late and Eldorado, and it is important that we honor our fellow gatekeepers wishes.

Keep in mind that the government is not well just one entity. There are various groups within the federal and state government that simply have their own agendas. Also I would add a particularly nasty group of folks from South Africa that are simply after the money. There are several other groups out there that I will simply not discuss.That taken with the magnitude of this requires us to balance a number of different considerations. Not least of which is simply how do I say this folks understanding that judging particular actions at this point in time is like issuing speading tickets to drivers at the Indy 500. Or more pointedly as Eldorado once said we are not interested in dealing with a bunch of accountants. That is folks who go around after the battle and spear the survivors to death. :D

We are not particularly concerned with the security of either site. Things were put in place years ago by our friends from Mesa to ensure that the wrong kind of people will not enjoy a visit. This isn`t to say there are not a lot of smart folks out there there are. Several of my associates believe most of the people on the trail couldn`t find gold in Fort knox. I personally do not believe that. Some folks have gotten very close. That is one of the reasons we did the things we did. We simply recognized with advanced technology and other things the likelihood of all of this blowing up is very, very real.

I suspect if we decide on this course of action our first step will be to allow several folks in a university in the south we have done business with for years to pursue what they have always wanted to do. Next we will simply post pictures here of Oz. You will be welcome to be a part of that.

After that I personally will just take a well earned retirement to a little shack Late left me In Mexico and spend the fall in Wickenburg, and of course visiting a very special Rose Garden in the Superstitions. :D

I would imagine you folks will have enough to keep you busy for years. You know there is something very special buried under the Fremont Saddle area. Impossible to get out given the difficulty of such an undertaking. Whatever it is is very, very big and I would love to see what it is. From what I understand from the library in Oz it predates the settlers from Calalus by several thousand years.


Respectfully,

B
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco »

Hola amigos,

B, don't let my arguments push you and your associates into some kind of quandary or rush to a decision, for there is certainly no rush from my point of view. However impatient I may be, such a decision would have long-lasting effects regardless of which way it goes. Once the 'genie is out of the bottle' it cannot be put back.

That said, as you (not you specifically) have already made the existence of Oz and of Calalus public knowledge over the internet, the 'clock is ticking' for it will likely have people out searching for these sites actively, <including folks with less-than-honorable intentions> thus increasing the odds of being discovered.

<B wrote>
would imagine you folks will have enough to keep you busy for years. You know there is something very special buried under the Fremont Saddle area. Impossible to get out given the difficulty of such an undertaking. Whatever it is is very, very big and I would love to see what it is. From what I understand from the library in Oz it predates the settlers from Calalus by several thousand years.
That sounds like another intriguing site, I look forward to hearing more.

Oroblanco
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

[Perhaps there is a significant variation between the oral tradition and the written tradition. If what you say is true how do we account for a letter sent by H. Petrasch to Mr. Wendsor, the Capital Librarian, Phoenix Arizona, dated 04/16/1953:

"The man known as the Dutchman that in your records he is still referred to by the shortened name of Waltz: his name positively was Waltzer as any old timer can testify.
We the Petrasch family, my father Gottfried, my brother Rhinhart knew him personally over a period of many years and feel that for the sake of future generations the records should be cleared". You can read the entire letter on page 60 of Don Shade`s work, Esperanza.]

Julia and Rhiney were unaware that Waltz had a mine of any kind, prior to when he loaned her the money for the soda fountain. That means any knowledge of Waltz that the Petrasch family may have had, was likely very casual.....or even non-existent.

Don Shade had many, many fancifull things in "Esperanza". Since you believe in Calalus and OZ, it's no stretch to find you quoting anything from Shade's book. "Fanciful" is being kind.

Once again, unless you have some kind of documentation for Jacob Waltz actually being Jacob Waltzer, it will never be accepted as fact. The best evidence (documented) is that the man's name was Waltz.

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco »

B wrote
"The man known as the Dutchman that in your records he is still referred to by the shortened name of Waltz: his name positively was Waltzer as any old timer can testify.
I have suspected for some time, but cannot prove, that the Walzer name variation we see in stories and oral memories of old timers may well be a b-stardization or confabulation of the name Weiser and Waltz. Phonetically Weiser is not far different from Walzer, especially when passed along by oral means rather than written. Also, a German speaker has a slightly different pronunciation - which leads to Anglo ears interpreting "Waltz" as "Walsh" etc. The fact that Waltz signed his name that way really should close the case on how it ought to be spelled, in my opinion.
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Gentlemen:

Jacob, what can be believed and what can be proved. Really not a lot. And if we believe Jim Bark, one would have to say Jacob was an honorable man who had well secrets. From Sim Ely`s work, "The Lost Dutchman Mine" Page 108, Eyre and Spottiswoode edition we find:

"I(Jacob) learned a long time ago that if I don`t keep my own secrets, I can`t expect others to keep them for me"

I would agree with this statement Jacob kept a lot of secrets. More than you can imagine.

Is his last name important. Yes it is because one last name opens gates while the other is a dead end. It was intended that way.

Should we dismiss the letter in Shade`s work as simply nonsense or fiction. Or perhaps Shade is trying to tell us something. Jake was honest, but he kept secrets.

As far as Shade`s work go it is exactly what it was intended to be. A Gate. Some will get through it and others will simply dismiss it as silliness. I know the man knew of deeper secrets in the Superstitions and expressed them in a way that one who reads and understands will follow. Both Late and his father had high regards for Shade.

I will say this Shade`s work has an understanding of the Mountains that operates on a level that few if any of the other writers on the range operate on. Obviously that is a personal opinion and what do I know. I also believe in the existence of Atlantis and know that Calalus and Oz exists.

The next thing we know some one will appear that claims to have found Atlantis.

And who knows maybe a temple built to honor Poseidon is buried deeply under Freemont Saddle. And perhaps this helps explain the obervatories and canals that were built all over the range. Even the locals eventually got into the game with the most extensive canal system one can imagine. I suspect the settlers from Calalus were wrong about the date associated with what is buried under Freemont Saddle. Its age is far older.

Of course someone would need to bring forth portions of the lost portions of the Critias, that speaks to the building of such a temple beside the needle that points to the home of the Gods.

That would lead to the ten pages that describe the battles that were fought in what was a real world war, and the crystals that were found in the Superstitions that were a part of the cataclysmic events surrounding the destruction of Atlantis.

You see not only did Oz preserve the most important library in the world it hid the most powerful technology also. A technology that destroyed Atlantis. That technology is no more. Our friends from Mesa saw to that. :D

We were just after our heritage others were after far more.

Or as Critias says in the last sentence of Critias, "the evil that came from beneath the Mountain in the West would have destroyed the world" He was right. it did destroy half of it.

As you can see there is a lot to consider in revealing all of this.


Respectfully,

B
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Re: CALALUS

Post by pippinwhitepaws »

a tibetian monk told me it was a library...
but, someone will come along to tell you i know nothing..which is the intent of several eastern religions.
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Pip,

Glad to see you are still around.

I don't know who would say you know "nothing".

For the record for those who may not know, Pip received a Master's from NAU's History program years ago. After he completed his degree, his advisor, Susan Deeds, tried to assist him for a few years more.

Her exact words to me were,"...... he is very intelligent." Having great respect for Professor Deeds, it's not a point I would argue.

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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco »

B wrote
The next thing we know some one will appear that claims to have found Atlantis.

And who knows maybe a temple built to honor Poseidon is buried deeply under Freemont Saddle. And perhaps this helps explain the obervatories and canals that were built all over the range. Even the locals eventually got into the game with the most extensive canal system one can imagine. I suspect the settlers from Calalus were wrong about the date associated with what is buried under Freemont Saddle. Its age is far older.
As far as I know, the evidence of ancient irrigation canals and other ruins found in the Superstitions are believed by historians to be the work of the Hohokam, and centuries old not millenia. Are you suggesting that Atlantis or some part of it exists in the Superstitions?

B also wrote
Of course someone would need to bring forth portions of the lost portions of the Critias, that speaks to the building of such a temple beside the needle that points to the home of the Gods.
I can not find any such passage in my copy of Critias, perhaps you can point me in the right direction as to where to find it?

B also wrote
That would lead to the ten pages that describe the battles that were fought in what was a real world war, and the crystals that were found in the Superstitions that were a part of the cataclysmic events surrounding the destruction of Atlantis.
Hmm, this sounds rather like the modern imagining of what Atlantis was, rather than what the ancient sources describe. I can find no reference to any kind of power-crystals anywhere in the ancient sources, in fact the most advanced technology mentioned by Plato (our primary source) is some rather modern plumbing. Even at that, Plutarch accused Plato of having given Atlantis some embellishments. It may be that Atlantis or some other Ice-age civilization did have some advanced technologies, we see some hints in enigmatic artifacts like the gold "airplanes" found in Egypt and S America, but still nothing like a "magic crystal" as far as I am aware.

I hope I have not given the impression that I dismiss the tale of Atlantis as so much myth; quite the contrary is the case, however the evidence seems to point to a culture which would not be out of place in the Bronze age rather than anything so advanced as to have super-weapons. I think Atlantis is rather peripheral to our topic.

Ditto to the words of our mutual friend Joe to Pip - good to see you posting again amigo! I hope all is well with you, and look forward to your posts.
Roy
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Pippenwhitepaws,

Perhaps you can share with us what you know about the library?

I suspect you have walked the starburst trails in the Superstitions.


Hello Oroblanco,

Odd I was told by an associate someone very close to you has indicated they discovered Atlantis. Probably a mis-understanding.

As far as the canals go the ancients were the teachers in both the works they left behind and way they pointed to. Was Atlantis in the Superstitons. The challenge is the question. Atlantis was a idea. It stretched from the Atlantic westward. Perhaps a way of understanding is to think of the relationship of the Superstitions to Atlantis is in a sense the way Alaska is a part of the United States. Not as a state but as a economic resource.

As you know only a small portion of the Critias is in the public view. There are several complete copies. One is in the Vatican, another in a small library in South Africa, A U.S. Government agency has one that was uncovered in Egypt years ago. I suspect there are partial copies with several parties.

As far as the main location of Atlantis I would look to the SS Jesmond. Again using the anology of the U.S. they dug into New Jersey.

The discovery of the mineral deposit that powered the technology of Atlantis was purely an accident.

The attempt to re-discover that deposit colonized the southwest with European Visitors and resulted in the efforts of Coronado to claim the resource for the Church.

Whatever happens with all of this is still open. Neverless there is a technology that was used to find Oz that failed. It would work perfectly on Fremont`s Saddle. I would not be surprrsed if it is already on the way. :D

Respectfully


B
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Oroblanco »

Hola amigos,
This will be a VERY long reply, so I must beg your indulgence again. Thank you in advance;

B wrote
Hello Oroblanco,

Odd I was told by an associate someone very close to you has indicated they discovered Atlantis. Probably a mis-understanding.
No misunderstanding, however I would have to ask you to be a bit more specific on this; it is true that a very close friend (my partner in fact) has found a site he believes could be Atlantis, however the site has not yet been verified. Another friend of several years also has stated that he found what he believes is Atlantis/Aztlan, but likewise it has not yet been verified. I prefer to see a bit more evidence before I start calling some place Atlantis, much the same as with Calalus.

B also wrote
As far as the canals go the ancients were the teachers in both the works they left behind and way they pointed to. Was Atlantis in the Superstitons. The challenge is the question. Atlantis was a idea. It stretched from the Atlantic westward. Perhaps a way of understanding is to think of the relationship of the Superstitions to Atlantis is in a sense the way Alaska is a part of the United States. Not as a state but as a economic resource.
Atlantis was an idea, in the same sense as Rome was an idea; the ancient description tells us of a maritime, mercantile empire that was militarily very aggressive. I can't say that I see such a civilization as a sort of grand, noble idea so much as a military based empire not so different from the Roman or Greek or Mongol empires. Only in modern imagined versions of Atlantis do we get a different version of the story, which adds in elements of superweapons and high technologies, some kind of 'Utopic' society etc. This is a subject I have done a little research on, and these are the impressions I have reached from ancient sources as I tend to credit the oldest available over modern as more likely to be reliable. If you know of an ancient source which tells of super-weapons, power crystals etc I would appreciate your pointing me in that direction.

B also wrote
As you know only a small portion of the Critias is in the public view. There are several complete copies. One is in the Vatican, another in a small library in South Africa, A U.S. Government agency has one that was uncovered in Egypt years ago. I suspect there are partial copies with several parties.
You have made repeated references to a "complete" copy of Critias; if you possess such a copy you really should make it public knowledge and publish it. There will be no copyright issues as the original was composed well over 20 centuries ago. To keep saying there is such a complete copy, when even the ancient sources such as Plutarch state that neither Solon nor Plato ever finished the history of Atlantis is just a little surprising. There was supposedly a third dialogue which has not survived to our day, do you know the title thereof?

B also wrote
As far as the main location of Atlantis I would look to the SS Jesmond. Again using the anology of the U.S. they dug into New Jersey.
I am not familiar with the Jesmond, but will look into it. If it refers to the site found off the coast of Cuba, it is speculation as to how this would relate to the overall geography of Atlantis.

B also wrote
The discovery of the mineral deposit that powered the technology of Atlantis was purely an accident.

The attempt to re-discover that deposit colonized the southwest with European Visitors and resulted in the efforts of Coronado to claim the resource for the Church.
What mineral might that be? Coal, perhaps? I have read a fair amount of the early documents relating to the European exploration of the New World, and have found no mention of any energy-producing mineral that was being sought after, only the precious metals, spices and some quite mundane things.

B also wrote
Whatever happens with all of this is still open. Neverless there is a technology that was used to find Oz that failed. It would work perfectly on Fremont`s Saddle. I would not be surprrsed if it is already on the way.
If you are referring to ground penetrating radar or something like that, it would likely help uncover buried ruins. You have made a number of claims here amigo, that is you and your associates have; yet you refrain from posting solid proof to back these assertions up. Show us photos of Oz, Calalus and the "library". Publish your "complete" copy of Critias. Playing mind games with cryptic hints etc may be fun, but hardly makes for a true dialogue and you may be disappointed with the results. You see I do not believe in a world of "secret knowledge" or some secret society without evidence to support the existence. As I have stated before, I believe that our history needs to be told, 'warts and all' including any energy-crystals or underground cities etc and let the chips fall where they may. In my opinion, to keep such things a secret is simply not the right thing to do for those generations who will follow us. Just for one example, if there really is some kind of 'energy crystal' just think of what that would do for an energy hungry world, the repercussions worldwide would be very positive indeed; to keep such a mineral as a secret by comparison seems wholly selfish and anti-philanthropic. I wonder if you will provide some sorts of evidence to prove some of the assertions you have made my friend.

I hope you are not offended by my being so frank with you, for you have spun quite a good story but so far it is all story, nothing to show that it is real. I am not incapable of grasping some concepts which some folks would consider quite far-out, but I insist on some solid evidence before I can accept them as factual. If you are unable or unwilling to provide any such proof, our discussion will surely get nowhere.

Thank you again for the interesting replies, and I look forward to your posts.
your "skeptical" friend in Dakota,
Roy
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Oroblanco,

The SS Jesmond is a schooner.

The discovery was made at latitude 250 north, longitude 230 40' West.

Having seen and touched some of the remaining crystals, I will tell you they are not like any mineral substance I have encountered before. They are warm to the touch and the temperature rises significantly with exposure to the sun. A large crystal is simply impossible to hold and if continually exposed to the sun can heat a rather large structure. It seems the sun`s rays simply bounce around inside till they reach a rather critical mass. Klondike seems to understand the Geology.

I suspect the fuse is already lit.

Respectfully,


B.
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Oroblanco,

Was Atlantis a idea. Yes it was. At one time it was a statement about what is good in man. The idea was replaced by the idea of wealth and power. Not unlike what we see today. This is obvious in even the published portions of the Critias.

As far as the technology goes it was real. The library of Oz makes that very clear.

Anyway good luck to you and your associates. I hope you find what you are looking for.

Oz, Calalus and other things will remain safe for today. After our visitors complete their visit who knows they may be also well known. For now they must remain hidden.

Respectfully,

B
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

It's been around six years ago that the Ely artifacts were given to Wake Forest so that they could be preserved and viewed by the public. Can we assume that the results of the "visit" to OZ will not take another six years to come to the public's attention?

I check my fax machine every day, still waiting for you to send the scan of the Ely signature page to me. :roll: A man's word is a reflection of his character. If it's worthless, so is he.

Just my opinion, so I suppose I could be wrong. :lol:

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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Mr. Ribaudo,

I guess you must be right. Just total imagination. If you can fantasize about the past what prevents the rest of us from doing so.

Why even bother in looking. Coronado Mesa, Freemont Saddle. nothing there to interest anyone. :D

One`s time would be far better spent looking for mesothermal quartz veins in Boulder Canyon.

I guess that is what keeps everything safe. Maybe dog is right about the gold in Fort Knox. One does have to look to find it. The rest can just dream on. :lol:


B
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

Like I said, you have been spinning this yarn for six years now. I am reminded of the blindbowman who's path has been, pretty much, a mirror of yours. His twisted story is the product, I assume, of too many mind altering drugs. I have always thought your story is a product of boredom and a vivid imagination. Both of you are brilliant.

I tried to warn you about Roy. He is more than your equal in this little quasi-historical debate. You should stick to the fantasy and shy away from historical reality. If OZ/Calalus is a reality, you should really take the Deckers to record it. I believe they would be an asset for honest reporting, which you sorely need.

You seem to desperately want to convince us of the truth of your story. Like President Obama, you refuse to present a single piece of evidence which could prove your case. That evidence has nothing to do with the main thrust of your story, or the location of OZ, but would go a long way in making us more confident in the man telling the story.

On the other hand, I am still enjoying following your trip through the Superstitions. Fremont Saddle is a wonderful addition this late in the game. It's not on a par with Jacob Waltz being a gatekeeper, but it's good.

Joe Ribaudo
klondike
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Re: CALALUS

Post by klondike »

Hello Joe,

Actually quite boring really. Couldn`t make this stuff up if I tried.

Seems Late or I mentioned the Freemont Saddle business to you years ago. I always felt someone would get a shovel out and try to well get in. Late seem to think, don`t really know why, that there was an entrance to the site from one of the canyons that was used by a religious order to hide a number of treasure bearing carts a long time ago. I know we could never find an entrance but Late had some documents that suggested this was the case and I believe that crazy lady who lived close by was tuned into something there also. Who really knows?

I have no doubt Oroblanco is a fine person and he has demonstrated a knowledge of all of this that exceeds my own. Imagine after a week in the library and he could be teaching all of us a thing or two.

Joe, none of us are perfect and this is not a perfect world. As I said we were just in this to protect what to us is holy. I personally wish the connection to more ancient times was not a part of this. We could have easily removed what was important to us and simply let you folks live in your well reality, but because of these other considerations we have taken considerable, considerable risks to keep a gate open.

Yes Jacob was a gatekeeper. You see Ely was right in describing him as a meloncholy and sad man. No one comes away from the Canyon of the Souls and Oz without feeling the trajedy that unfolded there and all across the Superstitions.

It did not have to be that way.


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Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

Unless you can find some of the old newspapers from the East Coast, from around March, 1882, for the next best account for the story of the unusual find of the S.S. Jesmond, I would suggest you pick up a copy of "Wonders of the Sea" by Haven Kendall. The story can also be found on the Internet.

As far as I know, it's only in paperback and the prices can go from Just under $40. To just under $100. No matter what you pay, I believe it will be a new copy. Page 85 has the story, and I will scan and post it here when I get home tonight.

It is considered to be in the "myth" category, even though it was claimed that the skipper and crew all swore to the truthfulness of the story. A serious flag for me, is the claim that the artifacts were destroyed in WWII in a German bombing raid on London. Nothing is left to be authenticated in any way.

I believe the Jesmond was built in 1888, and was a cargo steamer.

Take care,

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Joe Ribaudo
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ben,

"Joe, none of us are perfect and this is not a perfect world. As I said we were just in this to protect what to us is holy."

I have a hard time understanding how you do that by revealing the existence of your "holy place" and teasing everyone as to where it is for six years. I believe even the most gullible among us has lost their gullibility by now. Perhaps the latest Fremont Saddle tease will get the ball rolling again.

At least that's a new wrinkle to your story. The S.S. Jesmond story is being rolled out for the second time now. If you want to keep me interested you will need to keep coming up with new material.

I expect the identity of the tooth fairy will be revealed to us any day now. :lol:

Joe
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Re: CALALUS

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

All,

Just for the record, it seems unlikely that Plato's story of Atlantis is anything more than fiction. The great historian, Herodotus, called "The Father Of History, who lived and wrote one hundred years before Plato, makes no mention of Atlantis. In fact, his historical writings directly contradict Plato's claims for Atlantis.

I suppose, if you are going to bring Atlantis into a forum discussing the LDM, anything goes for "evidence".

Joe Ribaudo
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