CALALUS

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ben,

""It seems Late offered to pay you for the shirts but I could be wrong. I know it was a difficult time. If that is a problem I will be happy to cut you a check. Just let me know the amount and where to send it."

Yes you did offer to pay for the shirts, but only those who attended could have those shirts. I also prepared food for the seven of you. Those are labor and monetary items. Do you place some kind of price on your word?

As I said, I alway pay my share......and more. This was one of those times. No chance I was going to drive to Eldorado Canyon on your word of a meet. I don't really care that you have played this game all these years, like I said, it's been entertaining.

You, Ben, have made many people promises here. As far as I know, you have never kept your word....once. It may be that someone will pipe up here, and say that just ain't so, but my guess is that the times you did were slim.....maybe once.

Roy has an education, world history wise, that will more than equal your's, IMHO. That makes him the perfect candidate for a tour of OZ......assuming you would actually show up. I hope you show him more respect than you did the folks at the museum.....and me.

Best,

Joe Ribaudo

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco,

Good luck in your adventures also.

Interesting your comments about the map room. All of the people who have visited have wanted to keep it a secret. We have had no one who wanted what is in the remnants of Oz revealed, except that is the University folks. Of course they are well tied to a very short understanding of events. The place seems to affect folks that way.

I am afraid if the maps in Oz were out there the Superstitions would probably be closed off to everyone by the powers that be for their own purposes. They seem to have far too many helicopters. Good they stayed parked on the wrong mountain for about a year.

Of course our friends in Mesa made a pretty big mess of Oz.

Hopefully you have been given something to think about as you write your book. That is a gift.

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Joe and B,

This reply is another very long-winded one, so I must beg your indulgence yet again.

<Joe R wrote>

Roy has an education, world history wise, .... That makes him the perfect candidate for a tour of OZ

Thank you for the very kind words my friend. I feel that your own knowledge of history and ancient history are at least on a par with mine, but superior on many subjects. More in a moment.

<B wrote>

Hello Oroblanco,

Good luck in your adventures also.

Interesting your comments about the map room. All of the people who have visited have wanted to keep it a secret. We have had no one who wanted what is in the remnants of Oz revealed, except that is the University folks. Of course they are well tied to a very short understanding of events. The place seems to affect folks that way.

I am afraid if the maps in Oz were out there the Superstitions would probably be closed off to everyone by the powers that be for their own purposes. They seem to have far too many helicopters. Good they stayed parked on the wrong mountain for about a year.

Of course our friends in Mesa made a pretty big mess of Oz.

Hopefully you have been given something to think about as you write your book. That is a gift.

You have already made the knowledge of Oz a matter of public record, I would only wish to publish photographic proof that it exists. Some of the sites you have mentioned previously, would remain unknown to the public had they not been made public knowledge, including photographs and the exact locations of them. (Eg Circlestone, Los Lunas dekalogue stone, etc) Historic sites are always a matter of debate whether the location ought to be public or not, being made public runs the risk of vandals or theives attacking them, but also allows direct protection under our laws and if important, even security in one form or another. The site you describe sounds like it is large enough that it would justify having some kind of permanent security assigned to it, perhaps even a museum dedicated to it. Assuming that you and your colleagues have made the correct conclusions about the site and who built it etc, it would be a very important site; so much so that to keep it a closed circle type of secret is almost criminal on the grounds of true history.

I am not calling you a criminal amigo, just that I am a devotee of history and believe the truth needs to be finally told. History is history, as they say, "warts and all". There is every reason to expect that academia may well react to such a revelation with silence and simply ignoring it. This has been done previously in other cases and it would serve as a type of protection for the site, while still allowing the public to know of it. If I were allowed to visit and document your site for publication, it would not be a problem if you wished the exact location kept secret. I have photos of ancient N African artifacts recovered from an ancient wreck off the coast of Honduras, by the kind permission of the museum there, with the proviso that I must not reveal the exact location of the wreck as this is the only way it can be protected. As an underwater site, keeping it secret is the only way to protect it. So I have no problem in keeping a location secret, so long as photographic proof can be obtained that proves ancient visitors did come to America which is my purpose. I could point to other important ancient sites in America such as "America's Stonehenge" (Mystery Hill, NH) for proof that such sites can successfully be made open for the public to visit without destroying them. Just something for you and your colleagues to consider.

A fascinating tale you have told here on the forum B <and Klondike> unfortunately without some sort of evidence we are left with what may well be just a story. You are obviously intelligent, surely you must realize that 'we the public' need to see solid proof. I would imagine that you likely did not believe the story until you personally viewed proof.

I hope that nothing I have said is offensive, no offense is intended. I only mentioned my desire to obtain photographic proof because I do not wish to obtain such evidence through subterfuge or deceit. If you do not think permission for photographs would be granted even if the location were kept secret, I won't trouble you further on it. Thank you for your interesting and intriguing posts, they are a type of gift indeed.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy A. Decker ~ Oroblanco

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco,

Eldorado Canyon is a rather nondescript location on the Colorado. The locals are rather colorful and the place seems to be locked in a time warp. Not far from Eldorado Canyon sits Boulder City. A Gatekeeper ran Boulder City years ago for the Federal Govenment. Gave him plenty of time to investigate and keep safe an ancient site in the Canyon.

Another Gate Keeper had a mining operation not far from the Salt River. Not a rich mine mind you but it allowed him to keep an eye on Jim Chunning and others. It also afforded him the time to understand the magic of Oz and its treasures.

He and his life long friend visited Oz many times and in his friends laid back way he recalled that the most interesting day of his life was spent on Horse Mesa. A wonderful man with a rather low key. Interesting Day.

The central figure in the LDM came to Arizona from Germany thru South Africa, to Georgia and west to Arizona. He came home to see and understand the place he had heard about as a child in this home in Germany.

These men had nothing preventing them from looting the holy for personal gain. Instead they along with others preserved in and kept it safe.

Over a thousand years ago many, many men died in the Canyon of the Souls in a delaying action that allowed Oz to be buried and the remnants of the people to escape. The same refugees that in their pitiful escape had to choose between food and their heritage on Silverbell Road.

Thankfully they choose the food.

Years ago Late and I spent a few days in the Canyon of the Souls and had our own personal dig. I was fortunate to uncover an artifact that was stained I suspect with the blood of its owner. It was a simple piece. From what I understand it was a small token of love from his wife that celebrated their love and the love of their three children. Such men are rare and their deaths did have meaning. Their children still walk among you.

I guess my point in all of this if all of these folks are criminals I count myself happily among them.

This is about family. I always has been.

B

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco

I know you are not referring to us as criminals. Its just there are some real sensitivites over here with that word.

We have been protecting our heritage from criminals and crazy folks for so many, many years. Such people triggered us to do things that well are understandable but do have a side that is questionable.

You see Roy history is written by the winners and we were among the losers. That doesn`t mean we were stupid, just losers.

Now our people can celebrate their heroes in South Africa and see the relics that as chldren they only heard stories about. Interestingly enough their is a wall there that celebrates those, not of the people, that did so much to keep our heritage safe.

Anyway we have visitors later this year. Let`s see what happens.


B

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roy,

As I recall, this is one of the "gates" to OZ:



It's a well known tourist attraction.

Take care,

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Forgot to mention the name of the mine. It's the Techatticup Mine.

Joe

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

What is meant by the term "gatekeepers"? Is that an un-official term, rather like the rancher who owns a most interesting ancient Amerindian site in Utah, who kept it a family secret for decades?

B wrote

The central figure in the LDM came to Arizona from Germany thru South Africa, to Georgia and west to Arizona. He came home to see and understand the place he had heard about as a child in this home in Germany.

Whom is being referred to as the 'central figure of the LDM' - is that Jacob Waltz? Helen Corbin's research into his history shows a somewhat different path to AZ, with no stop in S Africa but an important stay in CA where he obtained his US citizenship. Do you mean someone other than Waltz?

Thank you in advance,

Joe R wrote

Forgot to mention the name of the mine. It's the Techatticup Mine.

I do not know the history of that particular mine other than a passing mention, but one would think that if it had other historic features than just a MINE, this would hardly be kept a secret right?
Oroblanco

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco,

Do you care for gardening? There is a wonderful spot in the Roger`s Canyon area where a small Rose garden exists. I care for it as best I can. This particular garden was planted by a gatekeeper over a 150 years ago and is very close to a covered Peralta Mine. It was planted as a show of affection for his wife. His wife was butchered and left in this mine, with others by the locals. The murder of his wife happened in the modern rough and tumble period of the range. Not that anyone has ever been murdered in the Superstitions of course. Anyway this particular gatekeeper was a mining engineer and explosive expert. After her death he migrated to Nevada and returned numerous times to the Superstitions for gold, to care for the garden, and to blow the local Ameriindians off of various mountains in the range. In doing so he oh well it doesn1t matter. He left a diary that found its way to several locals who in time became gatekeepers themselves.

In the last hundred or so years the primary responsibility of caring for Oz fell on a family of bankers, gold refiners, and traders from New York. One of their adventures involved the movement of 862 gold bars from Arizona. These gold bars have a rather colorful history.

Gatekeepers can be seen from the above as individuals who have cared for the holy for over a thousand years. In doing so they have occasionaly been involved in the insanity that has permiated the range. They have primarily been the descendents of Calalus but in some instances were individuals who simply became involved because for them it was the right thing to do.

Jacob Waltzer, the dutchman, was a gatekeeper. For over 20 years he lead a rather meager existence in Phoenix, when for all practical purposes he was a very wealthy man. Jake came to the United States from Germany after a stop over in South Africa. He spent time in the gold fields of the Appalachia`s, primarily in North Georgia in the Dahlonega area. There are historical documents tying him to a particular mine. The Battle Branch Mine on the Etowah River. Waltzer left Georgia and migrated west and after several adventures made his way to the Phoenix area where he spent the rest of his life except for a few additional adventures that centered around the Comstock load in Nevada. The Mexican Mine in Virginia City was of particular interest to him. A good historian might find that one of the principles in the mine fascinating. Waltzer always made the point to visit Piper`s Opera house in Virginia City when possible. Shortly before Waltzer died he was visited by the children of the mentioned family. They came to show their respects and other things.


B.

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco,

Jacob`s last name is Walzer not Waltzer, Waltz, etc.,

One should keep in mind that german immigrants particularly would shorten their last names to fit in more with the local communites they settled in.

Also I should not post in the middle of the night.

On another subject. The Trail Maps and the other more colorful maps in the public view, lead to two different areas of the range. Accepting that this is true, why do you suppose that is? Perhaps it tells you the Trail Maps were created by folks who were not sure exactly what they were dealing with while the other maps were created by folks who knew exactly what they were doing?

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ben,

You cease to amaze me.

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ben,

One other thing. Do you have a single document to support your "Walzer" theory? Have you read the research that Dr. Glover did on Jacob Waltz? You can find it in Chapter 11, of "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz....".

Joe

[klondike]

Hello Joe,

Why yes I have read Mr. Glover`s work. Chapter 11 was interesting. I know Late and a friend of his in Arizona thought the geology portions ranked right up there with Barry Storm`s efforts.

Do you know how the Petrasch`s knew Jacob? If you wish to have a discussion regarding Jacob`s last name that is a good place to start. After all they were pretty close to ground zero in all of this.

And by the way the last name really was Waltzer. Just wanted to see if anyone was paying attention.

B.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ben,

I would have to say no, I don't know how Herman knew Waltz. I know he claimed he knew him, but he and the other son didn't come down from Montana until after Waltz had died.

There may have been some previous history, but without revisiting some research we did on the Petrasch's, I just don't know.

That being said, I doubt he knew him. More likely it's a case of the "Hell I Was There" syndrome. The quote was from the title of Elmer Keith's book.

Most of those who didn't really know Waltz, want to offer a secret that most other folks don't know to give some kind of support their claims. His name was actually Beuregard, or something along those lines, and when he wasn't at his regular job as a "Gate Keeper" he was a professional wrestler.

Joe

[Joe Ribaudo]

OOPS!!!

"I would have to say no, I don't know how Herman knew Waltz. I know he claimed he knew him, but he and the other son didn't come down from Montana until after Waltz had died."

Make that he and the father.....Gottfried.

Joe Ribaudo

[klondike]

Hello Joe,

Ever wonder why the Petrasch family left New York? Always seemed a bit odd, but maybe not. Also the passion for staying in Arizona? Have to say Phoenix was not as appealing as say Virginia City, Nevada, particularly to someone interested in mining.

Well at least we can say that Rhinehart was pretty much on top of ground zero.

I wonder if the Petrasch family, all of them, knew Jacob as Waltzer would that mean a bit more than later writers opinions on the subject?

Also could this suggest a connection that has really not been focused on?

Perhaps a ship manifest showing a Jacob Waltzer leaving Germany, and traveling to South Africa. And a bit later a Jacob Waltzer leaving South Africa and traveling to America. And who knows maybe even the Petrasch family took the same route.

Perhaps just idle speculation.

B

[Oroblanco]

Greetings B, Joe and everyone,

<B wrote>

Do you care for gardening? There is a wonderful spot in the Roger`s Canyon area where a small Rose garden exists. I care for it as best I can. This particular garden was planted by a gatekeeper over a 150 years ago and is very close to a covered Peralta Mine. It was planted as a show of affection for his wife. His wife was butchered and left in this mine, with others by the locals. The murder of his wife happened in the modern rough and tumble period of the range. Not that anyone has ever been murdered in the Superstitions of course. Anyway this particular gatekeeper was a mining engineer and explosive expert. After her death he migrated to Nevada and returned numerous times to the Superstitions for gold, to care for the garden, and to blow the local Ameriindians off of various mountains in the range. In doing so he oh well it doesn1t matter. He left a diary that found its way to several locals who in time became gatekeepers themselves.

My wife and I tend a half acre garden each year, for many years now but this year will cut back to half or less for several reasons. I have not been in Rogers canyon recently but am unaware of any rose garden there. The rest of your story is interesting but I do not know of any historical documentation to support it.

<B also wrote>

Jacob`s last name is Walzer not Waltzer, Waltz, etc.,

The research done by Helen Corbin and others have fairly well proven that his name was Waltz, and that he signed it that way himself, so I must respectfully disagree here. The Walzer variant shows up in the stories of the lost mine told by various individuals well after Waltz was dead.

<B also wrote>

On another subject. The Trail Maps and the other more colorful maps in the public view, lead to two different areas of the range. Accepting that this is true, why do you suppose that is? Perhaps it tells you the Trail Maps were created by folks who were not sure exactly what they were dealing with while the other maps were created by folks who knew exactly what they were doing?

Why the maps lead to different areas is due to their being created by different persons for one answer. Your postulated explanation is only one of several possible, unfortunately.

You and your friends have woven quite a tale here amigo, and unfortunately I have to say that I remain respectfully unconvinced that any of it is true. It will require some evidence such as photographs to convince me. Thank you for your time and interesting discussion, I hope you have a very pleasant day.
Oroblanco

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco,

You tell us that:

"The research done by Helen Corbin and others have fairly well proven that his name was Waltz, and that he signed it that way himself, so I must respectfully disagree here. The Walzer variant shows up in the stories of the lost mine told by various individuals well after Waltz was dead."

Perhaps there is a significant variation between the oral tradition and the written tradition. If what you say is true how do we account for a letter sent by H. Petrasch to Mr. Wendsor, the Capital Librarian, Phoenix Arizona, dated 04/16/1953:

"The man known as the Dutchman that in your records he is still referred to by the shortened name of Waltz: his name positively was Waltzer as any old timer can testify.
We the Petrasch family, my father Gottfried, my brother Rhinhart knew him personally over a period of many years and feel that for the sake of future generations the records should be cleared". You can read the entire letter on page 60 of Don Shade`s work, Esperanza.

Maybe what this should tell us is the work done by others rarely proves anything. Maybe with luck, the availablility of a few primary sources we can catch a glimpse of the past no more no less.

For example if a researcher of the LDM legend were to described gold ore from the LDM in terms of quartz crystallization temperatures instead of more accepted geological terms thus concealing the true nature of the deposit would you accept it? Yes you would if you did not have a working knowledge of the nature of precious metal deposits even to ask the question. You would be content to believe the deposit was mesothermal in nature when in reality it is epithermal.

So then proof can be a tricky concept at its best. You described artifacts found I believe off the coast of Central America, that seem to originate in North Africa. Yet you provide no proof for what seems legitimate reasons. Are we to say since you have not provided historical documentation that can be reviewed, we should not consider your point.

Years ago Late sat down with a tribal leader and discussed the close proximity of Oz and certain Amerindian religious sites in the Superstitions. At the end of the discussion Late and his friend got up smiled and said since neither Oz nor the religious sites existed there would be no problems. I believe I learned a lot about wisdom that day. Somethings simply are regardless of the language that is used to describe them.

Sorry you were unable to locate the particular garden I referenced. Few people know of its location. That is what keeps it safe. Have to say they are beautiful. I imagine they bloom not for us but for others.

Your answer to my map question well leads to a dead end. Perhaps some day someone can run with that question and find a different answer.

So where are we then. Circlestone, who knows. Snaketown, no real proof, the Latin Heart an enigma, The Testamont Stone, a mystery. The Spaniard,who searched Eldorado Canyon with maps that were handed down for generations, simply ghosts.

Perhaps the answers are in the stars, the land, and the people who were apart of all this and their survivors.

Good luck on your book. I am sure it will become part of a very special library in Arizona.

Enjoyed our dialogue.

Respectfully,


B

[Joe Ribaudo]

Ben,

There are many, many Dutch Hunters who have researched Jacob Waltz's history, including his real name.
That would include a number of my close friends, as well as myself. We have all seen the "evidence" that claims Jacob Waltz was really Jacob Waltzer. While that is possible, the documented evidence is that the man's surname was Waltz.

All of the "documented" evidence shows that his name was Waltz. Those who claim otherwise offer no documentation to support their stories.......and that's all we have is stories. In your case, we are getting the same thing......a story.

This is such a minor detail, which is why I asked you to provide some kind of documentation for your claims. It's the same reason I asked for a scanned copy of the inscription on the Ely book you first claimed to have purchased at that yard sale. Neither thing would give anyone a clue about "OZ", it's location or any artifacts that are contained in it.

You promised to fax me a copy, and I provided you our fax #. Like all of your proof/evidence/promises, it was vapor.....pure and simple. If you had ever kept one (1) promise (your word) I might have a better opinion of you and your stories.

You keep coming back here, I assume, when your work gets slow or boring, and trying to convince us of the actual existence of "OZ" and "Calalus" as reality. Until you provide evidence, more than a picture of a tourist mine in Nevada, which I identified the same day you posted it, your claims and story will remain a work of pure fiction for anyone with a IQ higher than a carrot.

You have claimed that you don't want the location of "OZ" made public, and yet you have continued to post hints as to it's location for years. You claimed that the artifacts, including the Ely book and letters were donated to a University (Wake Forest) where they could be displayed for all the world to view. It seems that those artifacts have gone to live with Jesus, along with missing socks and the Calalus artifacts.

On the other hand, you have my sincere admiration for spinning a wonderful yarn. I expect a signed first edition when the book comes out. As is my custom, I will gladly pay for for the book, although many authors send me complimentary copies.

Good luck convincing Roy. He's been around the block once or twice, and is well versed in the history of the Southwest......as well as the world. He came to your posts with an open mind, same as I did, but it will take more than an interesting fairy tale to bring him into the fold.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
This will be a very long reply so I must beg your indulgence.

<B wrote>

Maybe what this should tell us is the work done by others rarely proves anything. Maybe with luck, the availablility of a few primary sources we can catch a glimpse of the past no more no less.

Just for the record, my wife and I have done our own research into Waltz, and came to the same conclusions Helen Corbin, Dr. Glover and others have proven with their much more extensive and in-depth work. I generally do not rely solely on the word of another researcher, but check the facts for myself. In this case, the facts are that Waltz signed his name Waltz, even on his citizenship papers which would suppor that being the true and correct spelling.

<B also wrote>

For example if a researcher of the LDM legend were to described gold ore from the LDM in terms of quartz crystallization temperatures instead of more accepted geological terms thus concealing the true nature of the deposit would you accept it? Yes you would if you did not have a working knowledge of the nature of precious metal deposits even to ask the question. You would be content to believe the deposit was mesothermal in nature when in reality it is epithermal.

I have to respectfully disgree here amigo; the still existing specimens of ore from Waltz's mine have the characteristics of mesothermal or even hypothermal type, not epithermal. I am no geologist but am a student of geology, so it was important to learn the three main types of ore deposit commonly found in Arizona where my wife and I do much of our explorations. Epithermal type ore is well described in the publication 'Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Gold Mining" by Wilson, Cunningham and Butler, pg 15, quote

The veins are characterized by rather irregular form, with rich ore bodies relatively near the surface, only; fine-grained to chalcedonic greenish-yellow quartz, and fine-grained sericite. Calcite is commonly abundant in the gangue, and the quartz locally shows lamellar structure pseudomorphic after calcite. Their gold generally occurs as very finely divided, pale-yellow particles, alloyed with more or less silver. Gold and silver tellurides, generally so common in epithermal deposits, have not been found in Arizona.
The epithermal veins have formed no placers of economic importance <I would add, in Arizona, for there are cases elsewhere in the world>

Does this sound like what we see in Dutchman ore to you? Often epithermal gold ore has no visible gold for that matter. As to whether we should classify Dutchman ore as Mesothermal or Hypothermal, Dr Glover states it is Mesothermal based on particle size (the main determining factor in classifying gold ores) which happens to be of a size that is exactly on the border between Mesothermal and Hypothermal. While I would not presume to have any superior expertise in geology over Dr Glover, I respectfully disagree on that classification on the basis that Dutchman ore has proven to be very low in silver content, which is a common factor in most Hypothermal ores, while most Mesothermal ores tend to have a rather high silver-to-gold ratio. So I must respectfully disagree with you on this point.

<B also wrote>

So then proof can be a tricky concept at its best. You described artifacts found I believe off the coast of Central America, that seem to originate in North Africa. Yet you provide no proof for what seems legitimate reasons. Are we to say since you have not provided historical documentation that can be reviewed, we should not consider your point.

I only mentioned the Roatan museum as an example, that it is possible to show photos of something without giving away the exact location. As the photos I have are for use only in the book (and copyright issues) I can't post any of them before the book is published. However, the site has been "discovered" by divers and they are removing the relics which is the very thing the museum wished to avoid; here is one photo

..these have been dated from one of the wrecks by a major university at 1200 AD, or 300 years too soon for the historical discovery of America.

Fortunately some of the relics are held in the museum, and are (the last I knew) on display for all to see. Needless to say, our historians avoid this find as it will not fit the Isolation theory. I did not bring it up to try to derail the topic. If you would be interested in researching the matter, that is documentation supporting ancient visitors from the Old world to the New, I could list a fair number but will limit it to a few examples;

"On Marvelous Things Heard", Aristotle, tells of Carthaginians voyaging to a secret land across the Atlantic and establishing a colony which was later withdrawn,

"On The Face of the Moon" Plutarch, Moralia XII, tells of discovery of a Carthaginian document describing the northern route to America, found in the ruins of Carthage

"Library of History" Diodorus Siculus, several relevant passages recording accidental discovery of America by Phoenicians and other details

"Critias" and "Timaeus" Plato's dialogues, in a remarkably over-looked passage mentions the fact that a continent rims the western edge of the Atlantic, proving that ancient people in the Mediterranean knew of the existence of the Americas, however dimly;

This is just a sample of the documentation available for the example I cited, I contributed a chapter to an anthology of alternative history which was published a few years ago, in which I present some of the evidence, if you are interested it is online (free) at Google books at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=JlA7BW ... &q&f=false

<B also wrote>

So where are we then. Circlestone, who knows. Snaketown, no real proof, the Latin Heart an enigma, The Testamont Stone, a mystery. The Spaniard,who searched Eldorado Canyon with maps that were handed down for generations, simply ghosts.

Perhaps the answers are in the stars, the land, and the people who were apart of all this and their survivors.

Good luck on your book. I am sure it will become part of a very special library in Arizona.

Your history of not keeping your word to our mutual friend Joe R, gives me reason to be cautious about your claims. If you had met Joe in person you would find him to be a very open and friendly person, generous to a fault and whose word is his bond. Your mention of a possible visit to 'Oz' sounded interesting but I would wish to obtain photos to prove it exists, and can sign a non-disclosure agreement for some level of legal protection. It would be a blot on my honor if I were to disclose the location even without such an agreement, and open to possible lawsuit under civil court. As you are clearly hesitant to allow such photographs, I can only surmise that either the whole story is bogus or you fear that photos would give away the location. or some other reason but in any case you must realize that without any solid proof, your story will never be accepted by the public.

Keeping the location a secret may not prove to be such a good protection as you may believe either; as with the Roatan island wrecks, even though in a dangerous place, many other people explore that area and may well discover it without your permission or knowledge, perhaps even loot it or vandalize it. So there is a good reason to make the site known to government authorities at the very least, and let "we the people" (acting through our public officials) make the decisions about what to make public and what to keep sealed.

As for Calalus, really all we have are those enigmatic relics which are difficultt to locate today. We could debate their age and origins for a long time without being able to prove anything. On the face of the 'story' as we get it from the latin inscriptions, it purports to tell of a Roman-samaritan colony dating to the eighth century AD and later, a period when the Byzantine empire (which Samaria was a part) was the 'world power' in the Mediterranean. Samaria was never a populous state at any time after the time of king David, so the notion of their sending out colonies is on thin ice right from the start. A case of fleeing refugees would be more believable, yet we have no record of any such large party of seaborne refugees departing Samaria in that time period.

I have yet to see any shred of evidence to tie in Jacob Waltz (or if you prefer to use "Walzer") to the Calalus artifacts, much less to the Peralta stones. So your tying them all into one package does not help make the whole story more believable. To then assert that surviving descendants of Calalus still walk among us and there exists some sort of 'secret society' is rather difficult to believe. If I sound overly skeptical to you on our topics, I hope you can see my reasons and are not taking offense at my reservations. I think our friend Joe can attest that I am not so skeptical of 'far out' topics as some people are, in fact I try to keep an open mind very much as he does for often enough, the truth is not in agreement with what we find in our history books. But it takes at least SOME sort of solid evidence to support outlandish theories, not just a rather thin connecting of the dots with a good story line. Some of the dots you have connected, may well not even be related to your central theme, as for instnace the so-called Dekalogue stone which is far too old to be a part of Calalus legend.

I can see that you are either un-willing or unable to post any photos of 'Oz' and/or Calalus, and hesitant to allow someone to enter the site(s) to get photos for publication, so I don't wish to aggravate you with endless question-and-answer sessions. I will explain one of my questions posed to you earlier, which you did not address directly; I asked you the dimensions (an estimate would have done) of the 'map room'; the reason I asked is that people who make up tall stories do not often take the time to fill in such details. Hence if you could answer that easily, even if your estimate was quite wrong, it would tend to support your contention that such a room exists. Simply saying the complex is around 2000 sq feet is not the sort of detail that helps point to a reality rather than a work of fiction.

Thank you again for the interesting discussion, and barring the possibility that you will post a few photos, I won't trouble you any further on the subject. Good luck and good hunting to you B, Joe, Klondike and anyone reading our discussion, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco,

Thank you also for an interesting discussion.

It seems we have thrown the Petrasches under the train but so what, history marches on.

The following post of Klondike in another thread concerning ore deposition might provide a good benchmark in understanding gold deposits. Really I find Klondike`s and Wasp`s threads from a geological point of view, persuasive. Well they should be.

Epithermal
1. One Kilometer surface. Temperature 50-200C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Tellurides, Carbonates, Pyrite, Sulfur Minerals.
3. locations: Cripple Creek Colorado, Telluride Colorado,

Mesothermal
1. Considerable Depth. Temperature: 200-300C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Sericite, Pyrites.
3. locations: Mother Lode, California, Grass Valley, California.

Hypothermal
1. Great Depth. Temperature 300-500C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Sericite, Pyrite, Chlorite.
3. locations: Homestake Mine, S.D., Dahlonege, Ga., Porcupine, Ontario.

Deposit formation temperatures are not quartz crystallization temperatures.

Kochera Ore: Mesothemal Deposit, Manganese replacement.
Goldfield Ore:( Mammoth, Black Queen, Bulldog, Wasp) Mesothermal Deposit, Manganese replacement.

Kochera Ore and Goldfield Ores different mineralogy.

Camp Ore: Epithermal deposit. similar to matchbox ore.

Matchbox Ore/Dutchman Ore: Epithermal, High Sulfur Content. Tellurides, kaolinite, pyrite, quartz, alunite, Associated with a known Caldera Complex.

LDM 1 Ore: Epithermal, Tellurides, Kaolinite, Associated with an unknown Caldera Complex.

Prospecting Targets: Rogers Canyon, North. Iron Mountain, Pinto Creek. Western Portion of Range, Salt River.


Klondike

Klondike was sandbagged on the Goldfield Arizona deposits by a local that will remain unnamed, not the folks that own the mine, but he got over it.

What is important is that deposits are understood in terms such as mineral hosts, temperature formation, and depth of deposition. This is the standard way of understanding mineral deposits. As you can see then describing a ore deposit in terms only of quartz crystallization temperatures is simply put nuts. Furthermore since quartz is the last to solidify out of solution it is not uncommon to have a deposit that is epithermal in nature with mesothermal quartz. It would also be nice to know the time of deposition if possible, tertiary, pre-cambrian, etc.,

Given the above then until we see a report that talks in these terms about the dutchman`s ore how can any determination be made about what type it is. The point is and as a historian I hope you will see you cannot. On the other hand if one has seen such a report it might be quite easy to see the Dutchman`s ore is a epithemal deposit with high quartz crystallization temperatures.

Of course making this public would identify possible prospecting locations in the Superstitions.

In terms of the visible nature of epithemal deposits, I suspect the miners of Goldfield, Nevada, Tonapah Nevada, Cripple Creek Colorado and Telluride Colorado had little difficulty in seeing their gold.

[klondike]

Hello Oroblanco,

Where was I. It seems Geology. I am sure you, Klondike, Wasp and others understand geology far better than I so pardon my questions if they seem too simple.

Is the major factor in determing gold deposits particle size? Fascinating, I would have thought the chart Klondike posted would be. It seems Emmons and Lindgren thought so also.

Not sure if discussing silver in terms of gold deposits doesn`t take one down a slippery slope. Seems to be a function of the morphology of the individual deposit.

Thanks for your information regarding the relics. Fascinating. I will definitely enjoy some addtional reading material.

I believe I have responded to the balance of your comments before:

"A wise person once said great claims require great proof. I would agree. Having said this, was this ever about making claims, no it was about saving the holy and preventing certain technologies from falling into the wrong hands. That has been accomplished."

Oz exists whether it is believed or not is of little importance. What is important to us has been saved.

As I have also said too many folks know Oz exists what is sought is more than a zip code. I am afraid that is all we will provide without an invitation.

In fact someone close to you knows that Oz exists he has known every since his discoveries in Boulder Canyon.

Enjoyed our dialogue and I wish you nothing but the best in your journey. May the stars keep you safe.

B

[klondike]

Hello Joe,

One final thought before I move on. What is the similarity between Klondike`s post regarding the composition of the matchbox ore deposit and Wasp`s ore analysis report?

Wow, and look at those quartz crystallization temperatures. Don`t tell anyone, folks will be lined up from Apache Junction to Phoenix to proclaim it is a mesothermal deposit. Who cares what the report says. And what is this tellurides in a epithermal deposit associated with a known Caldera Complex? How can this be? Everyone knows that tellurides doen`t exist in epithermal deposits in Arizona.

Take Care and may the stars keep you safe.

B

[alan m]

Hello
I may have some ideas to add to this discussion and please correct me if I error.
Most gold deposits in main bearing rock were formed during the Cambian period about 600 Million years ago Except those formed as you have described, the thermal vents are usually found in and around the "ring of Fire" and are due to subducting of the Earths crust.
The Superstitions were formed about 65 Million years ago as a result of an uplifting event.
It is possible that Cambrian Gold was exposed as a result of that event, so there could be other evidence of mineralization that would not be expected in association with the formation of gold from a thermal vent.
Best Regards to all
Alan

[Oroblanco]

Hello again,
I have to respectfully disagree on several issues in your last posts B, firstly the report posted by Wasp was nothing but the cover sheet you get with assay reports, that covers in a general way gold ores.

Secondly, the Matchbox ore is not what I would call epithermal; it has large particle size and yes particle size is a key factor used by geologists in determining how to classify gold ore genesis. It has little to do with the temperature at which silica crystallizes into quartz, the size of the grains of the ore directly relate to how deep in the earth they formed. I have not personally examined every specimen in existence purported to be Dutchman ore, but those I have looked at show the characteristic grain size of meso- or hypothermal types, not epithermal which would not have large particles of gold visible. Epithermal ores are of two main types, those with high levels of sulphurization and those with low levels of sulphurization. There are many sources for research into this matter, including free online resources if you are so interested.

As far as I am aware, the only person whom has ever done any scientific testing of Dutchman ore is Dr Glover, and his results indicated Mesothermal type ore not Epithermal, with the particle size (measured) being right on the borderline for Meso-and Hypothermal, which I disagree with his conclusion based on the silver-to-gold ratio. An assay done on Dutchman ore by Joe Porterie of Phoenix revealed a result of some 5500 ounces of gold per ton, with a low silver content; most epithermal gold ores and mesothermal have high silver to gold ratios. You don't have to take my word on any of this, please do research the matter for yourself, as I said I am not a geologist but a student of geology, with only 30 years experience in gold prospecting. In the meantime, you are certainly welcome to your opinion of the Dutchman ore as 'epithermal' in nature, but I remain respectfully in disagreement.

<B wrote>

Wow, and look at those quartz crystallization temperatures.

Most geologists today do not put as much emphasis on the quartz crystallization temperature as it occurs over a wide range, but more emphasis on the pressures and depth etc when making classifications. We might also look at just how those quartz crystallization temperatures are calculated from looking at a piece of rock, I will let you look that up. I highly recommend Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Gold Mining, it explains this topic and how it relates to Arizona specifically far better than I could.

Alan wrote

Hello
I may have some ideas to add to this discussion and please correct me if I error.
Most gold deposits in main bearing rock were formed during the Cambian period about 600 Million years ago Except those formed as you have described, the thermal vents are usually found in and around the "ring of Fire" and are due to subducting of the Earths crust.
The Superstitions were formed about 65 Million years ago as a result of an uplifting event.
It is possible that Cambrian Gold was exposed as a result of that event, so there could be other evidence of mineralization that would not be expected in association with the formation of gold from a thermal vent.
Best Regards to all
Alan

I would only point out that the Cambrian age gold deposits, world-wide, account for about 20% of the total, large amounts are of Mesozoic and Tertiary age. The Superstitions being 65 million years old would not be in the Cambrian age but rather are right on the borderline for late Cretaceous and Paleogene, if Cretaceous this is a part of the Mesozoic era.

A couple of geologic studies were done on the Superstitions Wilderness area by USGS over the years, one of which is available online at USGS.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco