Crossing The Salt

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Post by zentull »

"I don't know if Julia and gang ever crossed the Salt in their searches"

Hard to avoid from Phoenix to the Superstitions...........
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Re: Not At All

Post by djui5 »


The Apache seldom gathered in large enough numbers to worry those at the site. Historically, the Apache were not usually in that area at all.
What about Garden Valley Joe? Home to an estimated 300 or so Apache I believe. Not really far from Massacre Grounds.

Something I don't see talked about much is where was the ore coming from that was processed in that arrastra? It certainly NOT from massacre grounds.
There are many reasons to believe that the Massacre Site was not the place where those killed ended up, rather it was the place where they started from when heading back to Mexico.
Now this is interesting. Maybe they all gathered at Massacre Grounds to prep for the trip home, and were massacred there. Seems plausable. No running 3 day fight. I have heard that ore piles have been found elsewhere in the mountains though, so what about that?
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Re: Crossing The Topic......

Post by djui5 »


It has been worked out in modern-day times.
Yes, with ample evidence left to support this. Pack out what you pack in they say...

There are credible stories that indicate that area as the location where Waltz worked his mine.

Joe

Anythings possible.
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Post by zentull »

I believe that Rancheria at Garden Valley was much later, but there are several notable ones such as that around the north end and deeper in. I would think that the Apache,Yavapai and whoever else just squatted in certain areas that had been inhabited much earlier. Doubt they stayed long. Regardless of trouble they may have caused, their reputation, deserved or not preceded them. The Pimas found a way to payback their kindness by using the soldiers I suppose.

The reasoning for the massacre, if ever known, is lost most likely. The Apaches pretty much hated the Mexicans with a passion.

We were a stones throw a while back from one rancheria I was shown a long time ago that no one else has ever mentioned that I know of. We should have taken the extra hour and paid a visit.
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Crossing The Salt

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

I suppose that's somewhat true. I always left from South Phoenix, so we never crossed the Salt River. I assume they always crossed the Salt, depending on where Julia moved to after selling her business. If she moved to Tempe......another story.

Joe
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Garden Valley?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Randy,

"What about Garden Valley Joe? Home to an estimated 300 or so Apache I believe. Not really far from Massacre Grounds."

Large numbers, like what you are talking about, required a much different life style then what the Apache of the era we are interested in lived.

That many people living in Garden Valley required an agrarian society, which was not something the Apache had until after they went to reservations.

That's not to say they did not plant crops, because they did. They just didn't live, as a rule, in one spot. They would plant corn, melons...etc. and eventually return to harvest them. This would be especially true of any apache in the area of the Superstitions.

If you're interested, I can recommend a good book dealing with the Apache food gathering methods.

Joe
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Post by djui5 »

I see :) Thanks for the book offer, but I don't have time to read another book right now. I'll get the info from you later.
I think Wayne was also correct that Garden Valley was after the Massacre time. I heard that somewhere else also...


So do you really think Waltz had ore from the Massacre and made up the mine entirely? Personally that doesn't sit well with me. It's possible the ore found at Massacre was from Goldfield...but then that doesn't explain Dutchies ore which doesn't resemble any other known mines ore. This could be 1 of 2 things, either he did have a mine, or there is a mine in Goldfield that hasn't been recovered. I find this highly unlikely though, that Dutchie didn't have a mine in the Superstitions.
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Duchie's Ore....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Randy,

While there are a number of claims of "having" LDM ore, when you consider the vast web that has been spun around this legend, it's more than possible that no one has real LDM ore.

The Indians who lived at Garden Valley were "Pre-history". The Salado were the probable group, liveing there a few hundred years and gone around 1400. Who do you think lived there after the massacre?

Not only was ore crushed at the Massacre Grounds, it was also processed
there. Is that where Harry LaFrance's gold bars came from? Considering the close proximity, that seems likely.

"It's possible the ore found at Massacre was from Goldfield...but then that doesn't explain Dutchies ore which doesn't resemble any other known mines ore. This could be 1 of 2 things, either he did have a mine, or there is a mine in Goldfield that hasn't been recovered. I find this highly unlikely though, that Dutchie didn't have a mine in the Superstitions."

There is a third possibility: Waltz found ore on the ground at the massacre site. That ore came from a mine in the Superstitions.....that has never been relocated. I find that highlylikely. :)

Assuming Waltz found a sizeable amount, he might have feared the real owners trying to get it back. Not knowing the history of the site, he hauled as much as he could back into the mountains, hid it and kept his mouth shut for years. Speaking of the mine and cache, Waltz is supposed to have said: "There's more where that came from-a great deal more. It's in a cache that we made...." and this, "But you can't find one without the other."

It's all about looking at the stories from another perspective.

Joe
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Post by zentull »

Working out a timeline the Bark story would have preceded Storms by a number of years. Wiley Holman was Barks principle source for the 2 soldiers. Bark died in 1938 and had moved permanently to Pasadena by 1928. Most of the notes were probably written between Barks 1915 move to Long beach(while he still had some business interests in Phoenix) and the early 1930s. He references his age in several chapters of the notes. Barks last trip was to visit Tex in December 1937.

Storms first book didn't come out until 1939. Storm attests that Jack Frazer told him the 2 soldiers story in 1937.

The Apaches and Yavapai were driven from their camps in the Garden Valley area in 1866. The Pimas were there for a short time until around 1890. Until the Cattle and fires caused the habitat we see today, it was a very fertile area.
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Re: Duchie's Ore....

Post by djui5 »

There is a third possibility: Waltz found ore on the ground at the massacre site. That ore came from a mine in the Superstitions.....that has never been relocated. I find that highlylikely. :)

Assuming Waltz found a sizeable amount, he might have feared the real owners trying to get it back. Not knowing the history of the site, he hauled as much as he could back into the mountains, hid it and kept his mouth shut for years.
Now that's good!
Speaking of the mine and cache, Waltz is supposed to have said: "There's more where that came from-a great deal more. It's in a cache that we made...." and this, "But you can't find one without the other."

Joe
Who said he said that? I "assume" we means him and Weisner (whoever). I think when he says we made a cache, I believe it meant a cache of the ore from the mine. This means he wasn't processing the ore, but hauling ore out of the mountains, possibly selling it as ore. I also understand there are records of him selling ore in Florence, and downtown Phoenix at Goldmans right?
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Post by zentull »

There are always records and here say. How many have you seen? Corbins book had one document, but there were a lot of questions surrounding it. Kind of like the tintype, eh? The historical material would probably not help you find the mine, but would solve some issues for us all. As long as it remains hidden from view, I seriously doubt its existence.

Here is a mystery for us all and those looking in. (Lots of Zombies looking in at us Joe)

Silverlock and Malhm came from Colorado(one of 2 places mentioned, the other was Idaho I believe), The Petraschs left for Colorado supposedly, Rhiney came back to Phoenix with Julia through Colorado?

Joe Deering came shortly after the Petraschs arrived there I believe. Dr A.M. Tuttle came via Colorado to Phoenix around 1889-90. Herman claims thats where he returned from at Rhineys request.

We had a member who liked to reference Nevada a lot. Seems like Colorado pops up an awful lot as well.
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Post by djui5 »

Yes it does! :D
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Post by djui5 »

Forgot something:

I think back then there was a lot of traffic between Colorado and Arizona in general, not just with Dutchman related stuff.
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Evidence?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gentlemen,

I don't believe there is a single document to support the stories of Waltz selling gold ore from the Superstitions. Other than the Corbin "draft", which I had a copy of prior to her publishing her book, I have never seen any receipt of gold or gold ore in connection with Jacob Waltz.

Like those who claim to have LDM ore, it's all just stories. He did sell a mine. Over the years, it's quite possible he collected a sizeable amount of high grade ore, as he prospected around the country.

My quote came from page 96 of "The Lost Dutchman Mine" by, Sims Ely.
Once you remove yourself (by many years) from Waltz's death, the stories and "evidence" become much more suspect. No one interviewed Julia and Rhiney, like Jim Bark did.

Not only were Bark and Ely the first ones "on the story", they were actively seeking out anyone with personal knowledge of Jacob Waltz.
They pursued every story they heard......to the source, if at all possible.

While I don't believe we are getting the unadulterated truth from either man's work, they have got to be the best source for finding the LDM. Their written words have the ring of truth to them. While they were both "hard" men, living in hard times, I have never seen either man called a thief or liar.

Now it may sound like I just called them liars, but that's not so. I believe they wrote their story as they heard it, and lived it, and "others changed their words before we got to read them.

If anyone is going to find the LDM, assuming it hasn't already been found, they will need to study the best possible source(s), and that's got to be the two men closest to Jacob Waltz.......who wrote about it.

Just my opinion, so I could (of course) be wrong. :)

Joe Ribaudo
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Old Photos

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

I created a new album in Member Archive. It's for old photos and anyone can add their pictures. This would be a great place for folks who can't make it to Greg's house or the Museum, to get a feel for the past history of the Superstitions.

I hope some of those who are still looking in on this site will post some of their treasures.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Scott »

I have a question. Where would a crossing of the Salt be likely near the
present Morman Flat damn? Was is always a bedrock uplifting? or was it a n area where the river widens and flow was slowed? The area looks like a natural crossing.But that may have all been changed during damm building.
Where there any mines reported or lost in that area ?
Just down stream of the "flats" there seems to be a deeper water that would have been a shallow canyon or rapids in pre dam times.
Regards Scott,
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garden valley

Post by Bandit »

Joe,

the way I present the Minoes del oro Map, wouldn't that give a possible explanation for " the Campo Mayor" in the upper right corner of the map.
Plus it is dated. over the Garden Valley area.

JW
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Post by zentull »

"Plus it is dated. over the Garden Valley area"

That would seem too far east in my opinion.
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Post by Bandit »

what I meant is that the map is dated. Not the Garden valley area.
JW
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Post by zentull »

I think it is important to note that Waltzs crossing at the Salt necessarily was not at the northern end of the mountains. It appears it was just another route and was the exception, rather than the rule. It may have been encampments that sprang up that changed his entry points from time to time. It may not have been the favorable route, but at that given time with it's relationship to the fort McDowell area, it may have been a safer choice.
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Re: Crossing The Topic......

Post by armchair »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:


There is a place in the Superstitions where the Two Soldier's story and the Joe Deering story can logically be placed. There is a pit mine there and many other signs to support the location. It has been worked out in modern-day times.

There are credible stories that indicate that area as the location where Waltz worked his mine.

Joe
Is this the same place that Linesba worked the tailing pile in about 1940?
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?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Armchair,

"Is this the same place that Linesba worked the tailing pile in about 1940?"

Sorry.....I have no idea who "Linesba" was. The only way I would know if it's the same mine, would be if you share the location. If it was being worked in 1940, I doubt it was the same place but anything is possible. Was it in the Coffee Flat Mountain area?

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Linesba

Post by armchair »

Joe,

I am pulling this information from old newspaper articles. Location described in one as "one and a quarter miles east of Weaver's Needle". The mine "has four entrances in a small box canyon".

In the other says that in 1940 "Marion Walker filed claims" and "W. W. Linesba, Prescott Mining Engineer" was using 65 miners working the tailings at a well guarded camp when he dropped dead of a heart attack in June of 1941.

I was looking at these articles because Barry Storm described this find in one of his books, but he hadn't provided any names in the book. Greg Davis had suggested this was connected to "Williams Camp" in a post in 2004 and from that I thought this was a well known location:

"May I suggest you read Barry Storm's book, "Thunder Gods Gold". He talks about this site but mentions no names. Also, The Mesa Tribune, November 7, l940, Page 1, col. 6-7, and page 8, col. 1-2. It's my understanding that this site was originally dug by Adam Stewart in the l920's and that Linesba dug the shaft at a later date. Tom Kollenborn can most likely shed more light on this subject with regars to the origin of the name, "Williams". Cordially, Gregory E. Davis"
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Post by zentull »

Same area as the Williams camp, south east of the Needle. I believe Linesba had a claim called the Lost Dutchman #1 N/W of the camp.
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Bluff Spring Mountain

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Armchair,

I believe the distance places you on Bluff Spring Mountain. There are a number of canyons that might qualify as "Box", but "65 miners working the tailings" would leave a mark.

Anyone been to this location and seen the "tailings"?

You say "he dropped dead of a heart attack in June of 1941" while working in the Superstitions? Who would of thunk it?

Joe
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