Crossing The Salt

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Crossing The Salt

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

A while back we had a pretty good discussion going concerning the trail that the two soldiers might have taken from Fort McDowell to Pinal. At the time, I quoted Martha Summerhays as a source for a crossing of the Salt River, directly south of the fort.

There was some doubt as to the exact location of that crossing, or if it existed as she described it....at all.

http://www.geocities.com/nationaltreasu ... /Maps.html

Take a trip through this sites maps of Arizona. You will find the one that I will post in Members Archive. There is a mountain shown just north of the Salt and west of the Verde. That is Mt. McDowell. McDowell Canyon runs along the east side of the mountain.

The wagon road that Martha used coming up from Yuma is plainly shown.
This is not to say that the two soldiers used that crossing on their trip to Pinal, only that it was the easiest way to get there, and the road was well traveled by stage, freight wagons and every other means of conveyance.

Joe Ribaudo
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Thanks for the link. I will be up all night happy as a clam checking the various links out. There is a replica of the Frank Fish map available for 10 dollars. That there is a market for something I thought was easily accessed shows me little has changed over the years concerning the sale of treasure maps.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

No Comments?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

When I first suggested there might be another route followed by the two soldiers, that would be more direct and easier, there were many comments.

When I mentioned they could have crossed the Salt south of Fort McDowell, I was told there was no such crossing there. After presenting the Martha Summerhays quotes, only a few admitted there may have been a crossing there.

The proof is now shown in the Members Archive with Hartley's 1865 map.

Is there anyone who can come up with a reason for the two soldiers to take the trail, we are told they took, when crossing the Salt south of the fort and turning east towards Pinal would have been such a cakewalk.

They would have been on a well traveled road.....all the way, and could easily hitched a ride on one of the wagons heading for the Silver King Mine, or Pinal.

Let's see.....after a hitch in the Army, they decided they had not gotten enough walking through "God-awful rough country" and decided take a holiday walking up the Salt and through the Superstitions. :roll:

That may have been what actually happened, but ya might want to consider a few other options. It's just possible we have not been told the real story. It is said that Barry Storm made up the story of the two soldiers, from another legend.

Anyway.....that's quite a map. 8O

Joe
JIM HAMRICK
Part Timer
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:46 am
Location: phoenix
Contact:

crossing the salt

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

Mr. Ribaudo, a tip of my hat to you for the map information.

Probably the only good crossing location would be where the diversion dam is now located and this would be the location of Marysville. I havent been over the Bush Highway for many years but remembering the river as it looked in the fifties there would have to be a hard for a crossing and that would also be where Marysville was. If I wanted to travel to Pinal from Fort McDowel by the most direct and timely way would be to cross the river at Marysville and up thru Usery Pass then it would be a clear way across the desert to Florence Junction then on in to Pinal. This would also be the safest way. However, If I was a young, healthy, ex-soldier and wanted to check out something I had noted in the past or just wanted to do a little prospecting along the route to Pinal I might traver the way as recounted in the soldiers' story.

I have tried to find a location of a soldiers well that was suppose to be between Phoenix and Florence Jct. but so far I haven't located this well. If anyone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.
LARRY WEBB
Greenhorn
Posts: 34
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:58 pm
Location: AUSTIN, TEXAS

Crossing the Salt/Soldiers Well

Post by LARRY WEBB »

Mr. Hamrick
I believe the well you are looking for is marked Old Well and it is on
the road from Maryville to Florence. It's about where Apache Jct. is and
not very far from the Superstitions.

Larry
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Das Well

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jim,

When you say a "soldiers well", does that mean it was dug by soldiers or just one that they used on a regular basis? There are old wells all over Arizona. Can you give us a little more history on the one you are searching for?

Joe
JIM HAMRICK
Part Timer
Posts: 101
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:46 am
Location: phoenix
Contact:

crossing the Salt

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

From the LDM maps I was looking at the Richard Harmond map dated Dec. 3, 1875, it notes an "old well" by a military trail and in my mind I clalled it "soliders well".

This map shows Marysville and Whitlow's ferry along with Mesa City. This maps also notes a "water station" along the military trail. Any info about this old trail?

Thanks.

Jim Hamrick
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Robias well in Hewitt canyon could fit the general area as it pertains to the map. I don't know the history of that well and if it or others in that general area would better fit the description. There were a number of wells in the quarter circle U area that could fit the bill as well. In fact there is the one at the ranch I suppose by the back corral fits as easily.

I believe the other well referenced sounds like Government well by description and place.

the Dutch Hunter counterparts of yesteryear and others had to depend on landmarks, springs and wells much more than we do today. That a well would be recorded in such a non descript way makes the map suspect. While such places tend to dry up or forgotten, it would seem the well would be better marked or recorded.

Was the Quarter circle U area used as a "Break"? It is very possible since it was one of the few habitations in that area along with the Reavis place early on.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

All's Well......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Because of the line of the trail, I suspect it is not that close to the mountains, but out in the open desert. Perhaps in the area of 60.

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

It could just as well follow the railroad north of the 60 and line up nicely with Picket Post. I was following the train of thought(no pun intended) of Fort McDowell through to Picket Post and the possibilities therein. Trails and roads can be apples and oranges. Of course those 2 French soldiers were everywhere, even in the Estrellas.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Possible Trails

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

You mentioned "Government Well" earlier, and that's a really good bet.

The Army often crossed the Verde, pretty much, right at Ft. McDowell. The trail took them to the area of Cottonwood Canyon where they crossed the Salt, continued through the Goldfield Mt's. and out at Government Well.

If the Two Soldiers took that route, they could have easily ended up trying to take a short-cut through the Superstitions. The entire story is really suspect, but if true at all, someone has changed the route they described.

I am at the store, so I am going by memory for the Cottonwood Canyon crossing.

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

They could have run through the massacre grounds grabbed up some ore and never entered the interior.

If the story is true for the most part, I believe the shortcut involved some sort of experience they had while soldiers and they either lost the trail or were sidetracked for some reason.

Every town has a lady in white in a cemetary, every highway has a hitch hiker story or three and every mountain has a 2 soldiers story it seems. Lot of French soldiers with unusual hats looking for treasure.........
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

And The Story Just Grew and Grew and...........

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Seems like something I have suggested in the past. :lol:

If they came up through the Massacre Grounds, it may have looked like a good way to take a shortcut. If they hit West Boulder and took a right, they were headed for "godawful rough country".

The one thing that sticks, is that no one has stumbled on that "mine", other than (maybe) Joe Deering, since that time.

Something is wrong with both stories.

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Joe Deering did walk and breathe though, we know that for a fact. I doubt Chunning would have followed whatever he was told unless it was believable. If we have the entire story there I do not know, but the stories have a number of coincidences which lead me to believe one was modified to fit another until the truth was blurred beyond recognition.

Similar to the Holmes tale of the burnt up miners outfit. Did Brownie believe that himself or was it too good to pass up to enhance the tale? Stories can be fabricated or events made to fit the tellers tales. When having a secret I suppose it makes it all worse.

Whether there were 1 or 2 soldiers or even soldiers at all is not the question I ask, it is what was the original basis for the story and why was it dovetailed too neatly with Deerings?

We have the 2 soldiers, Deering and the Holmes sighting of Waltz at the north river crossing..........then Waltz says to take him to the boardhouse so he can point things out? Are 2 earlier tales feeding the logic of the latter?
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

What If?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

What if Waltz did not say "the board house"? If he was going to show them the way from that place, why didn't they ever start from there?

Assuming that Joe Deering really did find the LDM, and then gave Chunning enough information to recognize it if he found it, why is it that the only place we have Chunning claiming he found the mine, was a short distance west of Weaver's Needle?

When he found the claim up on the Salt River, why did Bark say it was 12 miles from where he (Chunning) believed the LDM was? Where does that put you?

What if the claim, we are told was his, is not the same as the one mentioned in the newspaper article? It certainly does not resemble what he described, or what Bark says he described.

Lots of smoke and mirrors here.

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Storm has the soldiers going through Garden Valley across Black Mesa into the area Barry was interested in. His version implies Barry was on the right track, though it is a different story than Barks which may have preceded it. Bark was just an occasional visitor to the Ranch to see Barkley by the time Storm wrote his tale, so Barks account by Holman would have preceded it I believe. Even the Gold in the jar goes from $500 to $800 to $300 dollars.......

Though we are off topic, but in the vicinity, where does it say that Deering was searching for the soldiers mine?

Though Barry never touches much on the Holmes saga he throws in the Phipps bit at the tail end......

I agree on the smoke and mirrors, lot of that in every LDM book.
Waltz had the best sleight of hand though...........
User avatar
djui5
Expert
Posts: 835
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:33 pm
Location: AJ
Contact:

Re: What If?

Post by djui5 »

What if Waltz did not say "the board house"? If he was going to show them the way from that place, why didn't they ever start from there?
Joe

Good one Joe. Where all did they start from? I know Hog Canyon, but where else?
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Where To Start?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Randy,

I am not really sure if they never started from Bark's main ranch house. There first attempt (Julia and Rhiney's) was from Hog Canyon, as you mentioned. Failing in that, the two of them went in through First Water Ranch.

If Hog Canyon was not the correct entry point, you might wonder if Waltz wanted them to go in at the Massacre Grounds. Assuming that the Waltz ore came from the Massacre Grounds and he moved as much as he could find into the interior, that seems the likely trail to his cache.

If the newspaper article came from Julia, which is probable, the mine/cache is a short distance back from the west end of the range. Considering that there is an arrastra at that location, in addition to other artifacts which I can't name, and considering that Silverlock and Malm found a sizable pile of rich ore there.........

The books and legends that have come to us over the years, may very well all be aimed at creating smoke and mirrors. Bark's own words place the mine/cache within view of the Massacre Grounds.

Finding the Waltz "mine" may be impossible. On the other hand, finding the mine where his ore came from originallly might just be something that has already been accomlplished.

All conjecture, so keep looking. :D

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Joe,

Putting the ore from X to the massacre site means the miners were complete idiots and had a death wish. I believe there is the habit of taking isolated incidents and putting them together. Lot of LDMs have whispers of wealth. Wouldn't take much to prove it out.........No one has sufficiently in my opinion.

Getting perfect out there. Too hot for most folks, getting nice and open for me. Thought about the perfect time to sneak out when it would the risk of being followed was lowest. August...hmmmmm
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Not At All

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Can't agree with you there. There is more in the area than the arrastra to show that there were more than a few people at the site. I would assume it was well protected.

The Apache seldom gathered in large enough numbers to worry those at the site. Historically, the Apache were not usually in that area at all. If they were, it was the Tonto's, and the surrounding country could not support large groups. For the most part (larger numbers), they were north of the Salt.

I doubt that "anger" was the motivation for anyone killed in that area. Food and weapons would be the most likely motive to take the risk of a pitched battle.

There are many reasons to believe that the Massacre Site was not the place where those killed ended up, rather it was the place where they started from when heading back to Mexico.

I know that goes against all of the popular stories, but there is ample evidence to indicate that may actually be what happened.

In any case, it seems to me that all of the stories need to be looked at from a different perspective. Following the old trails seldom (not always) have led to anything of value.

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

What of the other Arrastras in other areas?

Either by X or the Massacre Arrastra makes less sense to end up in that area to me. I guess hindsight helps though. I believe some of the stories need separated. That there were a number of areas mined and a number of Arrastras located in various areas should support this.

No one is going to attempt to answer the Deering question?

Since the topic is crossing the Salt, where did Julia, Rhiney and clan cross the Salt?
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Crossing The Topic......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Since it's my topic, I am just following the thread wherever it leads. This Forum doesn't really need any restrictions on topics, as it is pretty much dead.

I am not at home, so I could be mistaken here. Deering was not looking for the Two Soldier's find. I believe others made the connection later. As I read the story by Bark/Chunning, he found the workings completely by accident.....same as the Two Soldiers.

There is a place in the Superstitions where the Two Soldier's story and the Joe Deering story can logically be placed. There is a pit mine there and many other signs to support the location. It has been worked out in modern-day times.

There are credible stories that indicate that area as the location where Waltz worked his mine.

Joe
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Forgot.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

I don't know if Julia and gang ever crossed the Salt in their searches. It seems unlikely, considering their area of interest.

Joe
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Look back at what you just said Joe...............
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Looking Back.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Which part?
Post Reply