The Gold

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Oroblanco
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Re: The Gold

Post by Oroblanco »

Greetings,

Thank you Joe for the very kind words, I hold you in the same regards. Paul put this situation very clearly, that all the info we have publicly, says the Dutchman ore is not epithermal, nor any mention of any tellurides. We cannot take the word of someone who says he or she has seen proof to the contrary.

I think Will has an excellent idea to simply ask Dr Glover if tellurides were confirmed as present in the jewelry and - or camp ores. I do not know Dr Glover personally but have had a couple of contacts with him, and hope to meet him some day.

I still can't agree that black minerals are tellurides. Here is an article written for geologists on how to ID the telluride minerals;
http://www.minsocam.org/msa/collectors_ ... urides.htm

Here are the colors listed for the various tellurides:
Altaite-PbTe

Color, galena white; hardness B; nearly sectile. Isotropic, but some specimens exhibit weak anomalous anisotropism Cubical cleavage is prominent inmost specimens, as exhibited by two sets of cleavage cracks at right angles, but does not show triangular pits like galena.

Calaverite-(Au, Ag) Te2

Color, light yellow to pinkish-white; hardness C. Strongly anisotropic, polarization colors are light gray, brown, dark gray. Some specimens show multiple twinning.

Coloradoite-HgTe

Color, light pinkish gray; hardness C, appears sectile in small grains. Isotropic.

Hessite-Ag2Te

Color; light gray; hardness A; nearly sectile. Most specimens are strongly anisotropic and show multiple twinning: polarization colors white, steel-blue, bornite-pink. The writer has never seen a specimen of isotropic hessite and the isometric character is open to question.

Krennerite-(Au, Ag)Te2

Color, creamy white; hardness C. Strongly anisotropic, polarization colors light gray, yellow, brown. Some grains show multiple twinning.

Petzite-(Ag, Au)2Te

Color, galena white; hardness A; nearly sectile. Isotropic.

Sylvanite-(Au, Ag)Te2

Color, silvery-white to creamy-white, lighter than calaverite; hardness C. Strongly anisotropic, with multiple twinning; polarization colors light gray, brownish-gray, dark gray.

Tellurium-Te

Color, silvery-white; somewhat lighter than krennerite and calaverite, distinctly lighter than hessite; hardness B. Strongly anisotropic, polarization colors light to dark gray.
As far as I can determine, none of the tellurides would be found in nature as a black colored mineral. I will agree that we cannot make any absolute conclusions based on just looking at photographs, but I thought that the typical silvery-white or brassy yellow of most gold tellurides would be readily noticeable to the naked eye.

It does not make a large difference to me how Dutchman ore is classified, but your comments insisting that it is epithermal while refusing to provide any kind of documentation to support that contention, which is contrary to the published opinions of the experts consulted by Dr Glover leaves us looking for answers. I am not calling anyone a liar if they should say they saw test results which prove epithermal & tellurides, just that I would like to see those test results too. It is a bit unreasonable to expect others will ignore the published expert opinion in favor of the word of someone we have never met.

About the tellurides; I went back to re-check some of the sources I have on hand, to see if someone had identified them in ores of one of the historic mines of the area; and perhaps I simply missed it or forgot about it. I can't find any mention of tellurides being found. Here is one example, from a study done by government geologists
MINERALIZATION
Superstition Mountains: Little mineralization is visible in the welded tuff. East of the First Water Trailhead, hematite is locally abundant on fault and fracture surfaces. Locally, minor light grey chalcedony also fills some fractures. No other mineralization was seen.

To the south of Hieroglyphic Canyon, many prospects have been dug into Pinal Schist. Epidoterich foliated amphibolite lenses locally contain traces of chrysocola, hematite, and white quartz, especially near the contact with the Pinal Schist. Chrysocola stains are locally visible at the contact between Pinal Schist and nonfoliated diorite (map unit YXd).

In the south-central part of section 35, a hill of white quartz, locally stained with hematite, crops out within granite. There are several dirt roads leading to the hill, which has been heavily quarried, but no evidence of hydrothermal minerals other than quartz was seen. Below black Mesa a thin rhyodacite flow has been mostly altered to light grey porcelanite such that, in most areas, all that is visible are 1-4 mm clear, subrounded quartz phenocrysts in a light grey aphanitic matrix. A few dikes in the area have also been similarly altered.

Goldfield: [Because many of the mines around Goldfield have been disturbed, partially buried or completely covered, it was not possible to directly study most of the workings. Therefore, much of the following was taken (and modified) from an unpublished report by lD. Wilburn.] The Superstition Mining District (later termed the Goldfield Mining District by Keith and others, 1983) was established in 1893 and
includes the area in and around Goldfield (see figure 8). Though not a large district locally, the ore was incredibly rich .. During its heyday from 1893 to 1898, the Mammoth, Bull Dog, and Black Queen mines produced $1 million in gold and silver from rich electrum deposits. A dozen smaller mines also have produced gold and silver. Sporadic mining in the district, as late as 1986, produced a total of about 60,000
ounces of gold and 20,000 ounces of silver. Throughout the Goldfield area, faults and fractures are locally filled with coarse-grained calcite and crystal-rich dacite dikes having mineral compositions similar to the dacite lavas (map unit Tdc). In
fact, all dikes observed were the same composition. Locally, broad areas of rock have been hydrothermally altered. Two miles south of Goldfield hills of dacite are altered to light hues of pink, green and grey. The mafic minerals have been weakly altered to hematite and the feldspars appear to have been altered to clay minerals. Chloritic alteration and dark hematite staining (possibly from the alteration of disseminated
sulfides) was also seen. Many outcrops display small areas of iridescent limonite, with metallic colors resembling bornite. The colorful outcrops have attracted prospectors, evident by shallow pits and trenches in the area. Intense hydrothermal alteration occurs in the white-colored pits just south of Mountain View road, where most of the area is light colored clay and possibly gypsum(?). Hydrothermal solutions have preferentially altered the dacite. Locally. however, the lowermost 3 meters or so of basalt is also altered to light shades of pink and tan. Chrysocola stains fractures (N15°W, 55°) in basalt on hills almost 3 miles north of Goldfield. In this area manganese films are common on fractures in dacite.

Mammoth Mine. The district's largest mine, the Mammoth, was dug into arkosic conglomerate along one or more north-trending normal faults. Outcrops are very limited, but the fault(s) separate conglomerate and basalt in the hanging wall block from granite in the footwall block. Immediately to the south of the mine an exposure of dacite crops out in a large trench. The dacite is bounded on both the east and west by high-angle contacts but the dacite is white and hydrothermally altered to clays, and the exposures in the trench are crumbly and indistinct. It is possible that the dacite is not a down-dropped block, as shown on the map, but is actually an intrusion. The electrum-rich Mormon Stope in the mine occurs within a high-angle shear zone (here called the Mammoth Fault) 30 feet wide, and dips 83°W. Between 65 and 200 feet below the surface the Mormon Stope preduced ever 40,000 ounces of gold. Gold
occurred abundantly as wire, dust, and flakes in white te glassy quartz stained strongly by pyrolusite, hematite, and limenite. A smaller ore bedy occurred 500 feet south on the fault. Rich ore extended to 400 feet in narrow veins. Below 1,022 feet, ore values diminished.

Black Queen Mine. The Black Queen Mine lies about 3,000 feet north of the Mammoth Mine in a zone of complex faulting. In the main exposed pit a high-angle fault zone, down-dropping basalt on the west from sandy conglomerate on the east, strikes N300E-N400E, is about 20 feet wide, and contained epithermal quartz rich in gold and silver. Rich ore stained strongly by pyrolusite and minor hematite contained free gold as dust, flakes, and wires. The electrum contained 36% silver. No sulfides occur in the
ore. High-grade ore carried hundreds of ounces of gold per ton in narrow veins 1-5 inches wide. One five inch wide vein, assaying 100 ounces of gold per ton, was stoped from the 150 foot level for 75 feet. Total gold production was about 6,000 ounces. Down-faulted basalt in the hanging wall contained a large manganiferous calcite vein about 3 feet wide and 100 feet in length, and carries low values in gold and silver.

Old Wasp Mine. The old Wasp Mine lies about 1,000 feet south of the Mormon Stope on the foot wall of the Mammoth Fault. The ore shoot is unique in the district, occurring in silicified granite which resembles rusty rhyolite. A shear zone, dipping from about 75° to near-vertical, contained fine electrum (gold and about 20% silver). Free gold with minor galena, cerrusite, and malachite occurred central to the ore shoot. In 1983, within 30 feet of the surface, the ore yielded ever 2,500 ounces of gold. The ore shoot
pinched to a narrow vein. An old drift underground intersected the ore shoot on the 1,022 feet level where gold values averaged 0.66 ounces per ton along 40 feet of the drift.

Bluebird Mine. A fault zone, dipping 60°-70° to the west cuts conglomerate and interbedded basalt on the hill immediately south of Goldfield. The fault contained a small elliptical shoot of quartz about 3 feet wide, which was very rich in electrum. The original shaft was 55 feet deep, now 120 feet deep. Production is unknown.

Bull Dog Mine. The Bull Dog Mine lies 1.35 miles west of Goldfield (in the Apache Junction
Quadrangle) dug into a near-vertical fault zone filled with a large manganiferous calcite vein 400 feet in length. The fault separates granite in the hanging wall on the east from granite in the foot wall on the west. The south end of the large calcite vein contained a large shoot of epithermal quartz 45 feet long and 3 feet wide rich in electrum and assaying in gold up to 250 ounces per ton. The quartz locally surrounded by
brecciated volcanic rocks and calcite. Near the surface the ore contained pyrolusite but no sulfides. At 105 feet pyrite was abundant. The vein is fractured and contains slicks, indicating renewed faulting after emplacement. The mine has produced about 6,700 ounces of gold. Other manganiferous calcite veins occur in the vicinity of the mine.

*These radiometric ages have been recalculated using updated decay constants.
14
This is taken from GEOLOGIC MAP OF THE GOLDFIELD QUADRANGLE AND THE NORTHERN
PART OF THE SUPERSTITION MTS. SW QUADRANGLES, MARICOPA AND PINAL COUNTIES, ARIZONA
by Steven J. Skotnicki and Charles A. Ferguson
Arizona Geological Survey
Open-File Report 95-9
August, 1995
No mention of any tellurides, that I could find.

As for not presenting any theory to support a mesothermal or hypothermal origin for Dutchman ore, there really is no need for me to present such a theory as we have published expert opinion that identifies it as mesothermal. However, if this strikes anyone as impossible or improbable, it should be borne in mind that these are not far different from epithermal veins, the main difference being the depth involved so in general it takes much longer for the deeply buried veins to be exposed by erosion and/or geologic uplift. As these deeper types are commonly found in monzonitic and/or granodioritic intrusives, and these types of rock are present in the Superstitions in several areas including along First Water trail, as well as east and south of the IV ranch. Hence it is not impossible nor improbable. In fact it may well be what Waltz was really referring to in his cryptic comment about the mine being unique in some way. <Paraphrasing> The fact that Waltz's mine has proved so difficult to rediscover actually would be more likely to be the case with a mesothermal or hypothermal vein, for being more deeply buried in the first place, these types often have much less of their ore body exposed by nature than the more common epithermal veins. The mercury vapor test could also be pointed to as evidence in favor of a deeply buried vein as opposed to a near-surface epithermal deposit.

Can we agree to call it "hydrothermal"?

Oroblanco
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Re: The Gold

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

wwjohnson wrote:
JoeRibaudo,

The testing Mr Glover did was as extensive and detailed as any ore analysis could be for the early 1990's. SEM scans the ore sample for all 98 elements which occur in nature naturally and gives you a readout of all the elements present, along with the size and weight ratio to the other elements. That's pretty extensive don't you think ?

I'm not a geology expert but did pay attention in Chemestry class and know enough when I'm around someone who is an expert to keep quiet and learn from them. The Internet is probably the worst place to try and teach yourself about geology. All you do by that is search for things that (seem) to enforce the beliefs you already have picked up from other equally irrelevant sites. By the time your done you feel like an expert but out in the field it somehow just doesn't look like it did on those websites.

How about asking cubfan to call Mr. Glover and ask him the question ? He seems to be interested and open to getting to the bottom of the ore issues.

I was driven out of the mountains Monday by the rain and wind so am going back in tonight for a few days and finish up what I had started out there.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Mr. Johnson,

If the things you are saying create questions from someone who is not as smart as you are, you might expect that such a person might voice those questions. If you feel threatened by the little people, such as me, just say so and I will remain silent.

If you think Paul will get a better response, or pass the information along more honestly than I would, by all means ask him to make the contact. I already have, and have received Dr. Golver's answer.

What you have read in Thomas' book, I believe, is all that will be forthcoming no matter who asks him.

If that's not good enough, as it's actually in plain English, you are welcome to try other avenues, such as Paul, to get an answer, or write your own book. I would welcome the chance to read such a book and, as I have (probably) told you before, I would be first in line to buy it. That would give me a break from my endless surfing of the Net for pertinent information on subjects I know nothing about.

Peter once derided me for avoiding a ride in the Superstitions because of a violent storm. My decision was a wise one, and so was yours.

Did you write "98 elements"?

You may have noticed that things have changed around here, and it's no longer possible to delete posts or even make corrections. That never created a problem for me, but I know some folks will find that troublesome. These posts of yours are very informative, along with Roy, Paul's and Ben Davis', but they are now part of the history of this Forum. Such wonderful posts would be a shame to lose, don't you think?

Take care,

Joe

Do you believe you have reached......bini' godilkooh, bini'gontl'iz and bini'gonldzil? (Smoothness of mind, resilience of mind and steadiness of mind) Those are important paths to Apache knowledge. They are not gifts but must be earned.
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Re: The Gold

Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe, you said:
I don't doubt that there is no TE in the tests that he had done


I'm terrible with trying to follow double negatives :). Are you saying you don't believe there is any Te in the results of Dr. Glover's analysis? I'm not sure how you can make an assumption one way or another unless you've seen the analysis.

Oro - I did some searching last night for photographs of Te containing ores - I didn't have time to post links or any of the actual photos, but I found quite a number that I could see how a polished piece would have a "darker" area such as seen on the matchbox photo. If I get some time tonight or over the weekend, I'll post some of the photos.

Joe - you also said:
If you think Paul will get a better response, or pass the information along more honestly than I would, by all means ask him to make the contact. I already have, and have received Dr. Golver's answer.

What you have read in Thomas' book, I believe, is all that will be forthcoming no matter who asks him.
I too have the answer and would have to agree completely with your stated assessment. While it may not have been the answer I was hoping for, I appreciated the quick and respectful response and accept the answer and explanation given me for it.

Will Johnson - I'm certainly not calling you a liar, in fact since you were willing to allow your words to be verified by the primary source in this case, I tend to believe you are likely correct that the jewelry and camp ore do contain Te. That said, I have no choice but to add it to my notes as a possibility (probability?) rather than a fact unless/until a day arrives that I see documented undeniable proof. If you are ever in a position to share that proof, I would be VERY pleased to see it.

I don't want to see this thread deteriorate into arguments - primarily out of selfishness because I appreciate the links and information that can help lead me to a better understanding of geology and ore formations.

This has been a very interesting discussion and quite thought provoking for me - thank you all.
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Re: The Gold

Post by Cubfan64 »

One last thing - I don't believe there have ever been photographs posted of what is called the "Camp Ore."

Ben, Klondike, Will, anyone.... does anyone have a photograph of that ore that can be shared publicly or privately?
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Re: The Gold

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

"I'm terrible with trying to follow double negatives . Are you saying you don't believe there is any Te in the results of Dr. Glover's analysis? I'm not sure how you can make an assumption one way or another unless you've seen the analysis."

I believe my statement leaves some wriggle-room for the possibility that some Te does show in the report. It almost requires a double negative to convey my assumptions adequately. :lol:

My guess is that we have received identical responses.

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Gold

Post by klondike »

Dad always said this was the best gold he had ever seen.

Can`t disagree with that.

Klondike
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Re: The Gold

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Paul,

Received your package yesterday. Very nice work indeed. Believe it will keep me up a few nights. :)

Many thanks,

Joe
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Re: The Gold

Post by Cubfan64 »

Joe,

You're welcome - it wasn't my work other than to compile all the individual scans into .pdf "documents" so to speak to make it easier to sort through them.

Due to the subject matter of the journals, I don't really know how useful they really are, but some of the articles may be interesting. I figured Oro would be the one mostly interested since many of them are along the lines of his research for the book he's working on (I think?).

Glad you got it and you're welcome.

Paul
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Re: The Gold

Post by Oroblanco »

Paul - your package arrived here today too - THANK YOU! I haven't had a chance to delve into it yet but it is very much of interest to me. I owe you yet another one.
Roy
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Re: The Gold

Post by Cubfan64 »

Oroblanco wrote:Paul - your package arrived here today too - THANK YOU! I haven't had a chance to delve into it yet but it is very much of interest to me. I owe you yet another one.
Roy
Glad you got it ok as well Roy. As far owing me anything, if you haven't yet, you'll find out quickly that I don't keep mental records of that sort of thing - I figure it all comes out in the wash eventually.

Hope you find some interesting reading in there, and possibly some new references for you to look for a research.
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Re: The Gold

Post by wwjohnson »

Klondike, Ben,

Here is the photo of epithermal, high sulfidation, acid sulfate AuAgTe gold telluride compound ore. Several people sent me a PM requesting information on this type ore.

All of the ore samples in this photo came from the same Arizona mine, same deposit and as you can see the samples run the spectrum of the entire geologic event that first formed, altered ,and later realtered the deposit. Clearly visable is replacement ore and wallrock gangue replacement.

Simply put, all mined rock is a combination of ore and gangue. Ore being the rock that contains minerals and metals with important and valuable elements and gangue being the worthless material that surrounds and adheres or is mixed with the valuable minerals and metals.

While most people believe an ore deposit is basically the same visually throughout the deposit, this photo clearly shows that is usually not the case. These samples were chosen to reprsent that vast diversity throughout the deposit and vein system.
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Re: The Gold

Post by klondike »

Hello Mr. Johnson,

Klondike is out of pocket for the moment. In fact he and dog are in a hole in Eldorado Canyon today. I generally post for him as best I can but have to say the geology stuff sometimes go beyond me.

Your samples are beautiful. But then again I have never seen gold samples that are not.

Your point about gold deposits are well taken. I know from my own experiences in several mining districts that gold can take many looks based on recrystallization forces and the nature of the rock formations the deposit crosses. I remember the deposits in Goldfield, Nevada at the Jumbo Extension Shaft had ore that crossed both latite and shale. These ore samples were different from the ore specimens taken from the Higgenson shaft that generally came from ore in dacite.

Interestingly enough surface samples taken from what the miner`s referred to as Aladdin`s treasure vault, a near surface bonanza ore body, reminded me of the ore that I believe was found in the Needle Canyon area and is referred to as stars in the night.

Having said that I suspect that particular ore body is mesothermal in nature, while the ore at Goldfield is epithermal.

I remember years ago I had a friend show me an ore sample that he claimed came from the 16 to 1 mine in California. It looked different than what I was use to seeing from that mine and he was kind enough to show me where the ore came from. I was surprised to see the vein stucture had passed through a rock formation that at one time must have been a coral reef in an ancient Sierran Sea. The reef had re-crystallized as Calcite and put its signature on the vein.

Of course the ore Klondike has shared with me from the Rand in South Africa has me totally confused. How can a placer deposit have so many different looks? Imagine many different forces were at work there. Some of which are still not understood.

Thanks for sharing the picture and I hope someday you get credit for what you have accomplished. I imagine there will be footnotes to what you have written but little that can be added.

So there is Te in ore from Arizona. Who would have known? :D

B
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Re: The Gold

Post by wwjohnson »

B, Klondike,

As you pointed out, gold ore deposits are complex and sometimes go through several evolutions to become what they are when they are finally mined. The ore from the Rand mine in South Africa is indeed confusing. Many people mistakenly believe it is a placer deposit. It WAS placer, at one time many millions of years ago in precambrian times, but that placer was welded by numerous successive geologic events and is today a lode deposit weathering and eroding back into its former placer form. Even the mother lode ore in California which is predominantly mesothermal has places of epithermal Te compound gold where alteration and replacement geologic events changed the DNA of the ore. Nothing remains constant in geology, time and heat and pressure eventually changes everything.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction
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Re: The Gold

Post by klondike »

Hello Mr. Johnson,

Your point on the Rand is well taken. It is a fossil placer deposit. Deposited at a time when atmospheric conditions, biological organisms, and geological events created a fluvial fan of extraordinary mineral richness. The basin it seems to me was an inland sea, with at least four major entrances. The size of the basin was comparable to Lake Victoria.

I imagine Geologists will go nuts over the Rand for many, many years. Good for them.

But as you have so aptly said, and I am paraphasing, there are no final answers in Geology. In this sense Geology resembles history more than science.

The Gold Deposits of California are well a hoot. Mesothermal, Epithermal and God knows what else. Of course most of the placers, if not all are in metamorphic rocks. And the hard rock mines. It leaves one with a sense of awe. The Empire Mine extends for miles and the grade of the deposit is pretty much uniform. On the other hand the 16 to 1 mine is a classic pocket mine. All within a relativly small Geological Province.

Your ore samples are fascinating. I will venture a guess that the deposit is played out and has been lost in depth by subsequent geological events. If the deposit is in the Superstitions it is associated with a Caldera Complex. I will venture a guess here that it is at the intermingling of two Caldera`s. One somewhat on the top of another. Furthermore the samples represent at least three periods of deposition, perhaps more. Enrichment has been continual with lateral secretion from surrounding rocks and I suspect sedimentary rocks at depth being the source of much of the valuable ore. Wall rock alteration has been intense. As I indicated this is just a guess.

I imagine the ore would compare favorably with the matchbox ore. Particularly the Te. Perhaps both came from the area surrounding Pistol Canyon. Who knows maybe it came from the same vein system. Different points in the same system. :D

I hope this makes at least some sense. I need some sleep. Dog has been obsessing on an area of Eldorado Canyon Canyon for sometime.


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Re: The Gold

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
I imagine the ore would compare favorably with the matchbox ore. Particularly the Te.
We have yet to see any evidence of any Te in any Dutchman ore. Can you provide proof of this assertion on your part? Without proof it is just so much speculation. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
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Re: The Gold

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

In all of the years that Ben has been posting here, I have yet to see him provide proof for anything he writes......that I can remember. How does one provide proof for anything in the land of OZ? :roll:

On the other hand, you will find mention of the "Tin Man" as well as "The Wizard of Oz" on page one of Amy Michelle Mosier's "Treasure Maps Of The Superstitions". 8O

Take care,

Joe
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Re: The Gold

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

You are free to believe what you will. Questions that are continually asked and continually answered lead no where but to a circle. What you seem to require is a level of proof that the subject matter does not allow in the public domain other than to present sound geological reasoning based on observations in the Superstitions.

As Ben has indicated in another post you require a level of proof that you cannot offer to support you own position. I have held the ore in my hand have you?

I have seen the report on the ore, have sampled Te bearing Gold deposits in the Superstitions, and have followed the vein system the ore came from. There are at least five mines on the system. Two of which are very close to a religious site in the Superstitions. A site that is extremely holy and I would advise anyone to stay away from.

In Pistol Canyon alone there are two covered mines with all the Te you could ever want to see. Two mines that predate the locals by over a 1000 years.

And really I could care less what you believe.

The Geology of the Superstitions is not star wars. It simply requires boots on the ground and a willingness to let the earth speak for itself. Take that journey. The end of that trail will take you to a place you cannot even begin to imagine.

Klondike


Hello Joe,

If you mean Voodoo Geology then I have to say I shy away from that type of proof. On the other hand you seem more than willing to accept nonsense which cannot be evened presented in a reasoned format. And that simply put is a waste.


Respectfully,

Klondike
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Re: The Gold

Post by Oroblanco »

Klondike wrote
Hello Roy,

You are free to believe what you will. Questions that are continually asked and continually answered lead no where but to a circle. What you seem to require is a level of proof that the subject matter does not allow in the public domain other than to present sound geological reasoning based on observations in the Superstitions.

As Ben has indicated in another post you require a level of proof that you cannot offer to support you own position. I have held the ore in my hand have you?

I have seen the report on the ore, have sampled Te bearing Gold deposits in the Superstitions, and have followed the vein system the ore came from. There are at least five mines on the system. Two of which are very close to a religious site in the Superstitions. A site that is extremely holy and I would advise anyone to stay away from.

In Pistol Canyon alone there are two covered mines with all the Te you could ever want to see. Two mines that predate the locals by over a 1000 years.

And really I could care less what you believe.

The Geology of the Superstitions is not star wars. It simply requires boots on the ground and a willingness to let the earth speak for itself. Take that journey. The end of that trail will take you to a place you cannot even begin to imagine.
Ah yes those un-substantiated claims of tellurides again. I suppose those ancients were mining telluride 1000 years ago too.

You don't need to take my word on what a geologist would class Dutchman ore, just take a peek in Dr Glover's book to see - mesothermal, not epithermal. I don't know what your game is to keep trying to get people to buy your version. The geology of the Superstitions is indeed not star wars, nor is it "Voodoo geology" - your scenario is. There is no example of any ore similar to anything found in the famous South African district within the Superstitions. I have put my boots on the ground enough, and plan to return there again - but not likely to Coronado Mesa.

You claim to have seen the report - well then post it. What possible harm can result from sharing it? Are you afraid that someone will suddenly locate the Lost Dutchman if they were to catch a glimpse of that document you have made repeated references to? It doesn't seem to have helped you to find it, so the odds are that it won't lead anyone else there either.

Starting unfounded rumors of tellurides in Dutchman ore, as well as mis-classifying the ore itself as epithermal makes no sense to me and I don't know how you stand to gain by this, any more than it makes sense to claim there are ruins of Calalus and Oz in the Superstitions, then say it is a deep secret known only to a handful of "gatekeepers" etc. This sort of game can get an inexperienced person into trouble, for someone reading your posts but without the know how to avoid trouble in the Superstitions could easily end up dead by a simple accident. Hence I term your stories as irresponsible behavior, and unless you can provide something to substantiate your claims, remain respectfully un-convinced. Your stories and allegations about characteristics of Dutchman ore are just that - stories, until you can provide something to prove your claims.

Good luck and good hunting to you Klondike and everyone reading this, I won't trouble you any further about this as clearly you are not going to post any kind of solid proof to back up your stories.
Oroblanco
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Re: The Gold

Post by klondike »

Hello Roy,

That is quite a number of assertions. Let`s see what we have here:


"Ah yes those un-substantiated claims of tellurides again. I suppose those ancients were mining telluride 1000 years ago too".

Roy did you ever suspect I make statements like that to simply give you a chance to engage in a productive conversation considering ore deposition and the role of the ancients in the Superstitions. I leave myself open to your type of response to see well if you have learned anything.


"You don't need to take my word on what a geologist would class Dutchman ore, just take a peek in Dr Glover's book to see - mesothermal, not epithermal. I don't know what your game is to keep trying to get people to buy your version. The geology of the Superstitions is indeed not star wars, nor is it "Voodoo geology" - your scenario is. There is no example of any ore similar to anything found in the famous South African district within the Superstitions. I have put my boots on the ground enough, and plan to return there again - but not likely to Coronado Mesa".

If one reads Dr. Glover`s book there is no proof the deposit is mesothermal only a discussion of quartz crystallization temperatures. In fact no geologist ever says in Dr. Glover`s book conclusively what the deposit is. I am not selling anything. Really don`t need to. The Geology of the Superstitions is complex but not impossible to understand. Voodoo Geology is practiced by those who ignore the truth and prefer to live in an illusion. I suspect history will show the deposit is epithermal and associated with a caldera complex in the Superstitions. I suspect you will provide no proof that this scenerio is not reliable. Simply put you have no proof. You seem confused about the Geology of the Rand and the Superstitions. Let me help. The Rand is a fossil placer deposit that was formed in the pre-cambrian. The deposit is hotly debated and well it should be. The deposits in the Superstitions are generally tertiary and epithermal. If you have proof that I have ever claimed the deposit in the Rand is similiar to anything in the Superstitions I would like to see your proof. I am sure you have such proof or you would not make such an assertion.

"You claim to have seen the report - well then post it. What possible harm can result from sharing it? Are you afraid that someone will suddenly locate the Lost Dutchman if they were to catch a glimpse of that document you have made repeated references to? It doesn't seem to have helped you to find it, so the odds are that it won't lead anyone else there either".

You have claimed I do not know where the LDM is. Please provide proof of your assertion. Do you even know what the LDM is? My personal opinion is you do not. To assume the LDM is one mine is a fallacious position based on the assumption that a rich tertiary mine would only have one surface exposure. The system you are speaking to has numerous surface exposures that have been subsequently covered up and worked out. On a historical level to believe the Dutchman was only involved in one mine in the Superstitions over a 20 year period is a very limited position. If you examine the documents in the public domain and the comments of at least one mining engineer you will see Jacob was on to a number of deposits in the Superstitions. The report you reference was a gift. You have been told what is in it. Guess you will just have to figure it out.

"Starting unfounded rumors of tellurides in Dutchman ore, as well as mis-classifying the ore itself as epithermal makes no sense to me and I don't know how you stand to gain by this, any more than it makes sense to claim there are ruins of Calalus and Oz in the Superstitions, then say it is a deep secret known only to a handful of "gatekeepers" etc. This sort of game can get an inexperienced person into trouble, for someone reading your posts but without the know how to avoid trouble in the Superstitions could easily end up dead by a simple accident. Hence I term your stories as irresponsible behavior, and unless you can provide something to substantiate your claims, remain respectfully un-convinced. Your stories and allegations about characteristics of Dutchman ore are just that - stories, until you can provide something to prove your claims".

Here you go again starting unsupported statements with no proof. What proof do you have the deposit is not epithermal. You simply have none because no one has given you any. Spend sometime in Pistol Canyon and read the rocks. You will begin to see the truth. As I have stated before there is enough proof as to the nature of the ore. What is lacking is imagination, not proof. If you find the terrain on Coronado Mesa to be terrifying you should simply stay away from it. No one should go into those mountains unprepared to deal with all of the hazards present. That would include men and critters. Do you have proof that anyone has ended up dead looking for Oz? Seems a lot of folks have ended up on the other side looking for the LDM.

Roy, how does it feel to enter a dialogue and have someone respond to you the way you and Joe interact? Imagine it does not feel good. Simply put you have no proof of anything and you simply rely on others to give you what you have not earned. Neither you or Joe participate in a dialogue on the issues at hand. That is why there really is no interest in taking this further. You folks carry paradigms around like a blinders that prevent you from being available for the truth. And if you are not available for the truth you will never find it. You simply cannot see it.

Mr. Johnson gave you a gift. All you and Joe could do is simply not grasp it. Imagine Voodoo Geology is a strong force in some.


Happy trails and respectfully.


Klondike
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wwjohnson
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Re: The Gold

Post by wwjohnson »

Klondike,

There isn't any point in arguing back and forth about mesothermal, epithermal, native gold as opposed to Te compound gold or any of the other issues involved with the jewelry (matchbox) and camp ore mineral deposits. Oroblanco and Joe have their own beliefs and they are to be respected for them and I am just presenting a fact and certainly am not trying to change anyones mind or convince anyone of anything. Anyone disagreeing with what I say is fine with me. This shouldn't be made personal however and I'm glad to see you keeping the discussion on a professional level and sticking to the topic. After all this is your thread.

Mr. Glover did a great job of testing the different ore samples but did a poor job in explaining the results of those tests in his book The Lost Dutchman Mine of Jacob Waltz Part 1 The Golden Dream pages 267 -290.

On page 275 of that book, Mr. Glover clearly states the following : " Regarding the type of quartz encasing the gold Howard ( Howard McCarthy) stipulated that without a chemical test of the quartz, which is a destructive test, he could not be certain as to the type of the quartz."

Howard McCarthy was absolutely correct in making that statement and even chemical destructive testing sometimes can be hard to determine if the crystalization point is close to the crossover points. Some quartz samples contain properties of both mesothermal and epithermal formation and mineralization. Some gold taken from the mother lode in Caifornia which is mesothermal in nature contains Te compounds so there are no givens in geology.

There was no destructive test done on any of Mr. Glover's ore samples so there is no answer to what type of quartz was in any of the samples. No matter what anyone tells you. Without the destructive test having been done, they are simply guessing.

Nothing whatsoever was printed in Mr. Glovers book concerning the mineral or metalic composition of the ores. So in conclusion, only Mr. Glover, the person who did the testing and those persons who saw the computer printouts of the results know what was in the ore.

Those are the facts. Period.

I made a simple request for someone to ask Mr. Glover if the gold in the matchbox and camp ores was native gold or a Te compound ( the ONLY two ways gold can form in nature ). A simple yes or no was all that was required, no explanation necessary, just yes or no.

Before a neutral party could be found to ask that question a person or persons who had already formed an opinion contacted Mr. Glover and now Mr. Glover will not answer that simple yes or no question.

That is where the issue stands and that is all right with me too. I already know what Mr. Glover's answer was going to be, it would have been nice if others who are interested in the ore composition could have heard it also. I fully respect Mr. Glover's right to decline to answer, it's his book, his ore tests, he can do whatever he wants with the results. I tried my best to settle the question to everyones satisfaction but that just didn't work out.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction
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Re: The Gold

Post by Cubfan64 »

in the "for what it's worth" category, there was a report posted by "Wasp" back in 2009 in the attached link:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 4&start=45

On page 4 of the thread about 1/3 of the way down the page is a copy of a "Report of Assay" suggesting a deposit "...within the volcanic ediface and ring fracture zones of the Tortilla Caldera..." under the minerology section is listed "precious metal tellurides" (although I don't quite understand the +/- designations since where I work that generally means it might or might not include).

The first line is also listed "Ep-Q Alunite Au. / Au-Ag-Te"

I know there was a great deal of discussion which took place when this document was first posted and as with all things "dutchman" not much was resolved.

I throw this out there just because it seems to be a possible link to the current discussion (which seems to be near an end). Without even getting into the discussion of whether or not this report of assay has anything to do with the Lost Dutchman Ore, it does seem to imply the presence of Te in relation to an ore deposit associated with the Superstition Mountains of Arizona. This of course assumes the report of assay is legitimate - which again as is typical with all things dutchman, is probably difficult to prove one way or another.

Anyways - I thought it seemed relevant given the discussion here. Any thoughts?
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Re: The Gold

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

It has always been my stated, unqualified, opinion that the Dutchman's ore could not be pinned to a specific "type". Since what Waltz described seems like a chimney deposit, meaning to me, that it came up through existing rock/mineral.

In my mind, that presents the possibility that many different kinds of native rock could have been brought up with the gold and created an unusual matrix. Passing through other/older deposits, it could have picked up those properties, which would not indicate how the surface ore was formed.

To my uneducated thinking, the farther the ore traveled from the initial source, the cooler it would become. The question that comes to mind is: Is it possible at some point that the cooling product could pick up, without changing, ore that was not indicative of the final outcropping's origination?

Could that be why the ore could be worked by hand, separating the pure metal from the matrix? The native rock that enclosed the gold was from a number of older sources which may not have melded well because of differing levels of age and degrees of heat in their creation.

Could that create a matrix that was less cohesive and one that would easily crumble away with little effort from a miner's pick?

No doubt this post will remove any doubt that I "don't know $#!t" about rocks.

For me, this would explain how the LDM could have been the "pit mine" with indications, silver sulfides, that the ore removed was silver.

Just askin.......

Joe Ribaudo
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wwjohnson
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Re: The Gold

Post by wwjohnson »

cubfan64,

The discussion here really centers around one thing and one thing only, in my opinion.
And that one thing is Mr. Glovers ore test and results.

I could post an ore report here and it would be meaningless because it could be called biased, lies, untrue, a forgery, on and on and on.

Same thing with Klondike, same thing with those holding an opposite opinion. Same thing with wasp. It's pointless. Completely pointless.

The only thing that cannot be argued or batted about endlessly is Mr. Glovers final analysis and he chose not to talk about it. This comes down to either you believe the jewelry ore is mesothermal or its epithermal and if it contains Te compounds or not. Either way is fine with me, I know what I believe but if you don't agree with that, thats great, I'm supporting your right to disagree 100%. I tried to settle the issue to everyones satisfaction with the only source everyone could not find fault with and it didn't work out.

The only issue here is Mr Glovers ore test analysis, everything else is just mindless arguing for the sake of arguing.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction
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Re: The Gold

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mr. Johnson,

"The only thing that cannot be argued or batted about endlessly is Mr. Glovers final analysis and he chose not to talk about it."

From what I read, Thomas' conclusions are based on the qualified opinions of people who make their living doing the kind of research he quoted in his book. In that respect his conclusions are, at least, as good as yours. Even though you state you live in the Dutch Hunting world, Apache Junction, you are not known to the locals that I have spoken to.

If I wanted to, I could make a convincing case for the geology of "Dutchman Ore". That, despite not knowing $#!t about rocks. On the other hand, I believe you do know what you are talking about. On the other hand, I'm running out of hands now, :lol: I am certain that Roy knows what he is talking about. I base that on knowing the man and his history. Trust is earned not automatically given. That is especially true when you don't know who you are talking to.

I sense you will take this as confrontational, but it's not meant to be. I am not calling you a liar, or any of the other things you seem to fear will be coming down the pike, just explaining why there might be some doubts about what you are posting.......at least for me.

I have been lied to for years about the history that surrounds the LDM, by someone who knows that history forward and backwards. I considered that man a friend, but he has made me cautious about LDM "facts". He knew the history of the LDM and the Apache so well that, for the most part, he had me convinced.

Over time, the things I knew were false opened my eyes to the truth.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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wwjohnson
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Re: The Gold

Post by wwjohnson »

Joe Ribuado,

I just posted this in my last post:

"The only thing that cannot be argued or batted about endlessly is Mr. Glovers final analysis and he chose not to talk about it. This comes down to either you believe the jewelry ore is mesothermal or its epithermal and if it contains Te compounds or not. Either way is fine with me, I know what I believe but if you don't agree with that, thats great, I'm supporting your right to disagree 100%. I tried to settle the issue to everyones satisfaction with the only source everyone could not find fault with and it didn't work out."

Thats pretty plain and straightforward. Not much room to twist and interpret it the way you seem to have. I don't care or feel bad if you believe something different, it makes no difference whatsoever to me. I'm happy for you whatever it is you believe. I'm sure you believe what you are talking about but I am at a loss. Whatever else you are going on about is not anything I posted about to you or anyone else so I can't help you.

Will Johnson
Apache Junction
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