Roy,
Ben has led us down this path before (2008):
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=942&start=285
Take care,
Joe
The Gold
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Gold
Roy,
If you keep going to "Previous" pages in the above link, you will get a much better feel for Ben Davis' history/saga here.
Take care,
Joe
If you keep going to "Previous" pages in the above link, you will get a much better feel for Ben Davis' history/saga here.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Gold
Klondike, B,
If you want to get a good idea of the type of gold deposit the Jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) is, ask the man who has possession of the Jewelry ore Mr. Glover tested.
Mr Glover analized the different ore samples for their individual elements, minerals, compounds and ratio of elements and compounds. He received a computerized printout of every detectable element and compound in those ore samples and the ratios of those elements and compounds. Only the Jewelry ore and Camp ore matched both element, compound and quantity ratio.
Mr Glover put none of this information in his book, instead only showing similar and disimilar likeness of the ores which tells you basically nothing about the actual analysis.
As you already know, quartz is not even needed to determine epithermal from mesothermal deposits. With a detailed printout of every element, compound, ratio and mineral present, the geology history and formation is like reading a book.
Tellurides , as you know, are found all over the Superstition mountains, not in abundance but in several places and you can even look at them from your car as you drive the Apache Trail.
If you are looking for gold in the Superstitions you are looking for two things and two things only. Native gold in it's pure element form, and gold compound. Thats it, only two things to look for, you won't find gold anywhere or in any other form. Sometimes, native gold and gold compounds form together in the same deposit making for an extremely rich deposit.
To make complicated geology understandable, there is only one gold compound. Thats it, just one. It only occurs one way in nature, and that gold compound is tellurium compound. Its the only way gold occurs in nature other than it's native form.
How do you find gold tellurium compound ? You look for rocks. Specifically, Sylvanite, Calverite, Petzite and Krennerite. Find one of these rocks and theres a chance you are holding gold and sometimes in rich quantities.
Sylvanite and Calverite are sometimes almost impossible to tell apart without a chemical test. Sylvanite bonds with gold and tellurium to form the compound AuAgTe2.
Calverite forms the gold tellurium compound AuTe2 and Petzite forms the gold tellurium compound AuAg2Te.
Krennerite forms tellurium gold compound AuTe2 also but is orthorhombic while the other three are monoclinic crystal systems and much more prone to rich gold lodes. All of these compounds are formed by hydrothermal activity.
Learn what these rocks look like, take a picture of them with you when go prospecting in the Superstitions and they will lead you to some of the most interesting and unique geology in the southwest.
Mammoth, Black Queen, Bull Dog and Wasp ores (Goldfield ores) are all Epithermal gold deposits but were formed with totally different elements and compounds than the Jewelry and Camp ores which are also Epithermal deposits. The difference between these ores is the compounds and elements which make up the ores, NOT Mesothermal or Epithermal quartz. There are no gold tellurium compounds in Goldfield ore. Mr. Glover proved that with his analysis.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
If you want to get a good idea of the type of gold deposit the Jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) is, ask the man who has possession of the Jewelry ore Mr. Glover tested.
Mr Glover analized the different ore samples for their individual elements, minerals, compounds and ratio of elements and compounds. He received a computerized printout of every detectable element and compound in those ore samples and the ratios of those elements and compounds. Only the Jewelry ore and Camp ore matched both element, compound and quantity ratio.
Mr Glover put none of this information in his book, instead only showing similar and disimilar likeness of the ores which tells you basically nothing about the actual analysis.
As you already know, quartz is not even needed to determine epithermal from mesothermal deposits. With a detailed printout of every element, compound, ratio and mineral present, the geology history and formation is like reading a book.
Tellurides , as you know, are found all over the Superstition mountains, not in abundance but in several places and you can even look at them from your car as you drive the Apache Trail.
If you are looking for gold in the Superstitions you are looking for two things and two things only. Native gold in it's pure element form, and gold compound. Thats it, only two things to look for, you won't find gold anywhere or in any other form. Sometimes, native gold and gold compounds form together in the same deposit making for an extremely rich deposit.
To make complicated geology understandable, there is only one gold compound. Thats it, just one. It only occurs one way in nature, and that gold compound is tellurium compound. Its the only way gold occurs in nature other than it's native form.
How do you find gold tellurium compound ? You look for rocks. Specifically, Sylvanite, Calverite, Petzite and Krennerite. Find one of these rocks and theres a chance you are holding gold and sometimes in rich quantities.
Sylvanite and Calverite are sometimes almost impossible to tell apart without a chemical test. Sylvanite bonds with gold and tellurium to form the compound AuAgTe2.
Calverite forms the gold tellurium compound AuTe2 and Petzite forms the gold tellurium compound AuAg2Te.
Krennerite forms tellurium gold compound AuTe2 also but is orthorhombic while the other three are monoclinic crystal systems and much more prone to rich gold lodes. All of these compounds are formed by hydrothermal activity.
Learn what these rocks look like, take a picture of them with you when go prospecting in the Superstitions and they will lead you to some of the most interesting and unique geology in the southwest.
Mammoth, Black Queen, Bull Dog and Wasp ores (Goldfield ores) are all Epithermal gold deposits but were formed with totally different elements and compounds than the Jewelry and Camp ores which are also Epithermal deposits. The difference between these ores is the compounds and elements which make up the ores, NOT Mesothermal or Epithermal quartz. There are no gold tellurium compounds in Goldfield ore. Mr. Glover proved that with his analysis.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Re: The Gold
I understand the concept of the tellurium compounds of gold and how they can occur, but Waltz's gold (including the jewelry gold we've seen photos of as the matchbox) seems to be primarily native elemental gold deposits correct? So the tellurium compounds of gold appearing in the camp and jewelry ore are more in the "trace" or at least relatively smaller amount as compared to the native elemental gold correct?
I recall the sheet that "Wasp" posted had tellurium listed in the analysis.
I've always been bothered by not physically seeing the actual data from Dr. Glover's analysis - some of that comes with working for so many years in a chemical lab environment and knowing how preparation, sample selection and data interpretation are often the "meat" of the analysis. Not that I don't take his word for it, but I'm just much more comfortable understanding conclusions when I can see the complete analysis in front of me. It would make sense to me if it turned out that one of the main reasons for not providing the actual data was due to the presence of Te in only the camp and jewelry ore. That element alone is something that could certainly be looked for in the Superstitions by prospectors if they know or believe it's associated with Waltz's gold - once found, it could possibly narrow down a search area.
Do I also understand correctly that no Te was detected in any of the Kochera ore?
I recall the sheet that "Wasp" posted had tellurium listed in the analysis.
I've always been bothered by not physically seeing the actual data from Dr. Glover's analysis - some of that comes with working for so many years in a chemical lab environment and knowing how preparation, sample selection and data interpretation are often the "meat" of the analysis. Not that I don't take his word for it, but I'm just much more comfortable understanding conclusions when I can see the complete analysis in front of me. It would make sense to me if it turned out that one of the main reasons for not providing the actual data was due to the presence of Te in only the camp and jewelry ore. That element alone is something that could certainly be looked for in the Superstitions by prospectors if they know or believe it's associated with Waltz's gold - once found, it could possibly narrow down a search area.
Do I also understand correctly that no Te was detected in any of the Kochera ore?
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Gold
Mr. Johnson,
"If you want to get a good idea of the type of gold deposit the Jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) is, ask the man who has possession of the Jewelry ore Mr. Glover tested."
Just wondering, how would you suggest Ben do that? While many Dutch Hunters know who has the ore, not everyone is privy to that information.
Other than that, it's a great suggestion.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
"If you want to get a good idea of the type of gold deposit the Jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) is, ask the man who has possession of the Jewelry ore Mr. Glover tested."
Just wondering, how would you suggest Ben do that? While many Dutch Hunters know who has the ore, not everyone is privy to that information.
Other than that, it's a great suggestion.
Take care,
Joe Ribaudo
Re: The Gold
cubfan64,
You wrote:
"I understand the concept of the tellurium compounds of gold and how they can occur, but Waltz's gold (including the jewelry gold we've seen photos of as the matchbox) seems to be primarily native elemental gold deposits correct? So the tellurium compounds of gold appearing in the camp and jewelry ore are more in the "trace" or at least relatively smaller amount as compared to the native elemental gold correct?"
The short answer is no, the gold tellurium compound in the matchbox is not in the trace or relatively smaller amount as compared to the native element gold. And here is where geology gets very complex and hard to understand.
You cannot look at a gold deposit as having been formed in its original environment and then mined millions of years later in that same exact environment. Very few gold deposits are found unaltered by subsequent alteration forces. The only constant is all the elements are still within the deposit, they are merely rearranged, and assays and SEM-EDS analysis like Mr. Glover did, sorts them out like an autopsy or CSI investigation. It's all still in there, all the original elements, compounds, minerals and their respective ratios, time and heat and pressure has just rearranged them. Thats all geology really is, time and heat and pressure.
Look closely at the main body of the matchbox, you will see rich replacement gold in a mostly quartz matrix and right along with it you will see dark black inclusions adhereing to the gold. In the matchbox, those dark black inclusions are tellurium and some saphralite. The forces that altered the gold deposit, one , two, three maybe four or five times, over the millions of years, further enriched the deposit as it leached the gold from the rock, over and over again and redeposited it in further and further concentrations until in the end, it became a fabulously rich concentration of native gold and gold compounds.
Look at the top of the matchbox, the lid of the matchbox and the small very dark triangles. The jewler used these dark parts of the ore as visual contrast, but they tell the story in graphic detail. The dark triangles are the remains of the AuAgTe compounds, as rich as the gold that appears as native gold on the body of the matchbox. Geologically, the matchbox is a fabulous example of geology at work over many millions of years. You just need to look at it and understand it in more than one single dimension.
The presence of Te in the matchbox is not a secret, it never has been, and any geologist would quickly recognize it. Every prospector who knows gold and what to look for already is out there looking for gold tellurium compounds along with native gold in quartz. It's harder to determine gold compounds even when you know what you are looking for and even if you find the rocks that bear the compounds they are not always enriched, just as all quartz is not enriched. So there is no easy pathway to riches just because you know what to look for.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
You wrote:
"I understand the concept of the tellurium compounds of gold and how they can occur, but Waltz's gold (including the jewelry gold we've seen photos of as the matchbox) seems to be primarily native elemental gold deposits correct? So the tellurium compounds of gold appearing in the camp and jewelry ore are more in the "trace" or at least relatively smaller amount as compared to the native elemental gold correct?"
The short answer is no, the gold tellurium compound in the matchbox is not in the trace or relatively smaller amount as compared to the native element gold. And here is where geology gets very complex and hard to understand.
You cannot look at a gold deposit as having been formed in its original environment and then mined millions of years later in that same exact environment. Very few gold deposits are found unaltered by subsequent alteration forces. The only constant is all the elements are still within the deposit, they are merely rearranged, and assays and SEM-EDS analysis like Mr. Glover did, sorts them out like an autopsy or CSI investigation. It's all still in there, all the original elements, compounds, minerals and their respective ratios, time and heat and pressure has just rearranged them. Thats all geology really is, time and heat and pressure.
Look closely at the main body of the matchbox, you will see rich replacement gold in a mostly quartz matrix and right along with it you will see dark black inclusions adhereing to the gold. In the matchbox, those dark black inclusions are tellurium and some saphralite. The forces that altered the gold deposit, one , two, three maybe four or five times, over the millions of years, further enriched the deposit as it leached the gold from the rock, over and over again and redeposited it in further and further concentrations until in the end, it became a fabulously rich concentration of native gold and gold compounds.
Look at the top of the matchbox, the lid of the matchbox and the small very dark triangles. The jewler used these dark parts of the ore as visual contrast, but they tell the story in graphic detail. The dark triangles are the remains of the AuAgTe compounds, as rich as the gold that appears as native gold on the body of the matchbox. Geologically, the matchbox is a fabulous example of geology at work over many millions of years. You just need to look at it and understand it in more than one single dimension.
The presence of Te in the matchbox is not a secret, it never has been, and any geologist would quickly recognize it. Every prospector who knows gold and what to look for already is out there looking for gold tellurium compounds along with native gold in quartz. It's harder to determine gold compounds even when you know what you are looking for and even if you find the rocks that bear the compounds they are not always enriched, just as all quartz is not enriched. So there is no easy pathway to riches just because you know what to look for.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Re: The Gold
cubfan64,
forgot to answer your question. There were some gold tellurium compounds found in the Kochera ore sample but not the same compound and not anywhere near the same ratio. Kochera ore had many similar elements as Jewelry and Camp ores but also had its own unique element composition which was not present in Jewelry or Camp ore samples. A close match but to far apart to have come from the same mine. (Mr. Glover's determination). He states this in his book somewhere around page 281.
JoeRibuado,
You cannot rule out the possibility Klondike, B, doesn't already know the owner of the Jewelry ore, or may already have spoken with him about the ore. It never hurts to ask, the worst the man could say would be I'm sorry I can't help you. Someone approaching him in a serious manner with the intent of truly learning something from him and you might be surprised the response you might get.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
forgot to answer your question. There were some gold tellurium compounds found in the Kochera ore sample but not the same compound and not anywhere near the same ratio. Kochera ore had many similar elements as Jewelry and Camp ores but also had its own unique element composition which was not present in Jewelry or Camp ore samples. A close match but to far apart to have come from the same mine. (Mr. Glover's determination). He states this in his book somewhere around page 281.
JoeRibuado,
You cannot rule out the possibility Klondike, B, doesn't already know the owner of the Jewelry ore, or may already have spoken with him about the ore. It never hurts to ask, the worst the man could say would be I'm sorry I can't help you. Someone approaching him in a serious manner with the intent of truly learning something from him and you might be surprised the response you might get.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Re: The Gold
Hola amigos,
This is a very long reply so I ask for your patience, thank you in advance.
Joe R wrote
With an abundance in the Earth's crust comparable to that of platinum, tellurium is one of the rarest stable solid elements in the Earth's crust. Its abundance is about 1 µg/kg.[10] In comparison, even the rarest of the lanthanides have crustal abundances of 500 µg/kg (see Abundance of the chemical elements).[11]
The extreme rarity of tellurium in the Earth's crust is not a reflection of its cosmic abundance, which is in fact greater than that of rubidium, even though rubidium is ten thousand times more abundant in the Earth's crust. The extraordinarily low abundance of tellurium on Earth is rather thought to be due to conditions in the Earth's formation, when the stable form of certain elements, in the absence of oxygen and water, was controlled by the reductive power of free hydrogen. Under this scenario, certain elements such as tellurium which form volatile hydrides were severely depleted during the formation of the Earth's crust, through evaporation of these hydrides. Tellurium and selenium are the heavy elements most depleted in the Earth's crust by this process.
I agree that it is POSSIBLE, and several of the Goldfield mines were of epithermal type which would be in keeping with the type of environment needed to find gold/silver tellurides but as far as I know no tellurides were found there. I don't see why we ought to expect to find it in association with the Dutchman mine? Were we talking about Colorado, the chances would be much greater IMHO. If you should run into one of the partners who own the mines in Goldfield, perhaps you could ask if any telluride was ever found in the mines? Perhaps Ben will expound on his posted opinion as to why we ought to be looking for telluride combos? I would as soon expect to find diamonds in the Superstitions as gold telluride, as diamonds are a product of volcanic actions, and there is at least a story of a cave of diamonds to support the contention (which turned out not to be diamonds of course). Another issue is the Camp Ore, which Ben says may be from the same source as the candle box ore, however we have no way of determining whether this is true or false. It might help if we could see a couple of photos of the Camp Ore? Thank you in advance;
Joe R wrote
That is a new one on me. I have never seen a trace of any gold telluride on Peters Mesa, perhaps someone could post a photo of an example found there? Maybe a bit more specific location to look, in order to find a specimen? Thank you in advance,
Klondike also wrote
Huh? Where do you get this info? Unless you can provide some kind of proof to support this contention, I have to respectfully disagree and say this is an un-supported speculation on your part. One would almost suspect that a hidden motive is at work with some of these posts.
WW Johnson wrote
Perhaps you could post a photo of the matchbox ore, and highlight the tellurium for us? I cannot see any, so would appreciate if you could point it out. Thank you in advance;
Photo of calaverite, a gold telluride mineral
I have more catching up to do, will stop by later.
Roy
This is a very long reply so I ask for your patience, thank you in advance.
Joe R wrote
Well to have telluride combinations, you need the element tellurium which is quite rare. Here is the wiki quote on itI may need a little education here, Amigo. I was under the impression we were talking about a telluride combination here. If that is so, I believe all of the ingredients required to create a telluride combination are present in the Superstitions.
Once you get past gold, silver and tellurium, I am unsure what else is required for telluride.
With an abundance in the Earth's crust comparable to that of platinum, tellurium is one of the rarest stable solid elements in the Earth's crust. Its abundance is about 1 µg/kg.[10] In comparison, even the rarest of the lanthanides have crustal abundances of 500 µg/kg (see Abundance of the chemical elements).[11]
The extreme rarity of tellurium in the Earth's crust is not a reflection of its cosmic abundance, which is in fact greater than that of rubidium, even though rubidium is ten thousand times more abundant in the Earth's crust. The extraordinarily low abundance of tellurium on Earth is rather thought to be due to conditions in the Earth's formation, when the stable form of certain elements, in the absence of oxygen and water, was controlled by the reductive power of free hydrogen. Under this scenario, certain elements such as tellurium which form volatile hydrides were severely depleted during the formation of the Earth's crust, through evaporation of these hydrides. Tellurium and selenium are the heavy elements most depleted in the Earth's crust by this process.
I agree that it is POSSIBLE, and several of the Goldfield mines were of epithermal type which would be in keeping with the type of environment needed to find gold/silver tellurides but as far as I know no tellurides were found there. I don't see why we ought to expect to find it in association with the Dutchman mine? Were we talking about Colorado, the chances would be much greater IMHO. If you should run into one of the partners who own the mines in Goldfield, perhaps you could ask if any telluride was ever found in the mines? Perhaps Ben will expound on his posted opinion as to why we ought to be looking for telluride combos? I would as soon expect to find diamonds in the Superstitions as gold telluride, as diamonds are a product of volcanic actions, and there is at least a story of a cave of diamonds to support the contention (which turned out not to be diamonds of course). Another issue is the Camp Ore, which Ben says may be from the same source as the candle box ore, however we have no way of determining whether this is true or false. It might help if we could see a couple of photos of the Camp Ore? Thank you in advance;
Joe R wrote
Will do, thank you! In fact, just starting through the older posts, I found where Klondike posted this, quoteIf you keep going to "Previous" pages in the above link, you will get a much better feel for Ben Davis' history/saga here.
One can find a bit of AuTe2 ore up on peter`s mesa. [/]
That is a new one on me. I have never seen a trace of any gold telluride on Peters Mesa, perhaps someone could post a photo of an example found there? Maybe a bit more specific location to look, in order to find a specimen? Thank you in advance,
Klondike also wrote
Anyway Te2 is an associated mineral with the major gold deposits in the Superstitions. It is a key mineral in LDM1 and several other deposits Jacob Walzer was involved in.
Huh? Where do you get this info? Unless you can provide some kind of proof to support this contention, I have to respectfully disagree and say this is an un-supported speculation on your part. One would almost suspect that a hidden motive is at work with some of these posts.
WW Johnson wrote
The short answer is no, the gold tellurium compound in the matchbox is not in the trace or relatively smaller amount as compared to the native element gold. And here is where geology gets very complex and hard to understand. <snip>In the matchbox, those dark black inclusions are tellurium and some saphralite. <snip>
The presence of Te in the matchbox is not a secret, it never has been, and any geologist would quickly recognize it. Every prospector who knows gold and what to look for already is out there looking for gold tellurium compounds along with native gold in quartz.
Perhaps you could post a photo of the matchbox ore, and highlight the tellurium for us? I cannot see any, so would appreciate if you could point it out. Thank you in advance;
Photo of calaverite, a gold telluride mineral
I have more catching up to do, will stop by later.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Gold
Here is a photo of the matchbox in question, I fail to see any tellurides on it so would appreciate someone pointing it out for us;
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Gold
Oroblanco,
great photo of Calaverite in its native unaltered form.
Here's that same Calaverite after it's been altered by 3-4-5 different geologic events over several million years.
The black is the tellurium and the yellow stuff is gold, the white is quartz.
This is why you cannot post a picture of calvarite and ask why it doesn't look like the matchbox ore. You cannot think of geology in one dimension. Geology and how gold is formed is not a one dimentional snapshot of a piece of native rock that is a textbook example in it's purest unaltered state. Gold deposits are not pure and unaltered and cannot be be depicted by textbook pure examples of rock samples. Geology goes much deeper than that, MUCH deeper.
We are not enemies Oroblanco. If you don't believe the Jewelry ore is epithermal thats great, I'm not trying to convince you. I respect your opinion. Just don't post irrelevant photographs which have nothing to do with the geology of how the Jewelry ore was formed and use that as proof it can't be epithermal or gold compound.
You cannot tell anything about the matchbox from the photo you posted. It is a terrible out of focus photo that doesn't even depict the proper color of the matchbox. If I can find a quality photo of the matchbox I'll try and post it if I have the right combination for posting photos, I've never tried to post a photo here.
Again, we're not enemies oroblanco, I respect your opinion but confusing the issue further is what led to the debate in the first place.
Let me respectfully ask you just one question to the point and the heart of the matter.
Lets say everything you've said about gold and epithermal and mesothermal and gold telluride compounds is correct and I am wrong. Let's agree on that.
How then is it that Mr. Glover positively identified tellurium and tellurium compounds in the Jewelry and Camp ores ?
They weren't my tests, I didn't do the tests, Howard McCarthy and the SEM-EDS machine did the test and printed out the results. I had no hand in it or made up any of the reports. All I did was read them. It's not even my opinion we are talking about it is the actual results of Mr. Glover's testing.
How do you explain that ?
And please, don't take my word for that. I believe it was either yourself or someone else you know who is good friends with Mr. Glover ? Call him up or email him and ask him yourself and see what he tells you.
You can still believe anything you want to believe and I'm fine with that, but at least you would know the truth.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
great photo of Calaverite in its native unaltered form.
Here's that same Calaverite after it's been altered by 3-4-5 different geologic events over several million years.
The black is the tellurium and the yellow stuff is gold, the white is quartz.
- gold and tellurium Te2.jpg (42.32 KiB) Viewed 21952 times
We are not enemies Oroblanco. If you don't believe the Jewelry ore is epithermal thats great, I'm not trying to convince you. I respect your opinion. Just don't post irrelevant photographs which have nothing to do with the geology of how the Jewelry ore was formed and use that as proof it can't be epithermal or gold compound.
You cannot tell anything about the matchbox from the photo you posted. It is a terrible out of focus photo that doesn't even depict the proper color of the matchbox. If I can find a quality photo of the matchbox I'll try and post it if I have the right combination for posting photos, I've never tried to post a photo here.
Again, we're not enemies oroblanco, I respect your opinion but confusing the issue further is what led to the debate in the first place.
Let me respectfully ask you just one question to the point and the heart of the matter.
Lets say everything you've said about gold and epithermal and mesothermal and gold telluride compounds is correct and I am wrong. Let's agree on that.
How then is it that Mr. Glover positively identified tellurium and tellurium compounds in the Jewelry and Camp ores ?
They weren't my tests, I didn't do the tests, Howard McCarthy and the SEM-EDS machine did the test and printed out the results. I had no hand in it or made up any of the reports. All I did was read them. It's not even my opinion we are talking about it is the actual results of Mr. Glover's testing.
How do you explain that ?
And please, don't take my word for that. I believe it was either yourself or someone else you know who is good friends with Mr. Glover ? Call him up or email him and ask him yourself and see what he tells you.
You can still believe anything you want to believe and I'm fine with that, but at least you would know the truth.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Re: The Gold
Oro - on page 3 of the link below you'll see 2 different photo's of the matchbox. From what Mr. Jolhnson says, the dark areas (especially in the diamond shaped inlays in the lid) are the AuAgTe compounds which exist in the jewelry and thus the ore that the matchbox was made out of.
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 4&start=30
Obviously with a lack of any experience in identifying geological samples, I couldn't even guess what they were, but at the same time I certainly can't say it isn't Te compounds.
Mr. Johnson - thank you for your answers. I had suspected that there was "something" different about what's called the Kochera Ore even though photographs I've seen of it seem like something the matchbox could easily be made from.
Out of curiosity, as one moves in different directions in a gold ore vein is it possible that the same elements can remain the same, but the individual amounts and "mix" (for lack of a better word) can change? If that's the case, is it possible that the Kochera ore did come from the same "mine" that Waltz had, but just from a different location than where he got the ore that went into the matchbox?
I wish I had studied geology long ago when I was still able to retain much of what I read
. Can't one of you write a "Gold Ore Formation for Dummies" book and publish it? I'll preorder a copy .
One significant disability I have is learning things without seeing examples in front of me. I can look at photographs of rocks with their names and descriptions all day long, but would be more than hard pressed to pick one up in nature and identify what it is. I'm a "visual learning" person - field work has always been the major way I learn. Sadly in a case like this, without spending some significant time with a minerologist / geologist / mining professional doing "hands on" studying and learning, I'm afraid I'm destined to be a remedial gold ore student.
I hope the thread continues though as every little bit helps me try to visualize what I need.
Oro - thanks for the gold ore study guide link earlier as well!
Paul
http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/ ... 4&start=30
Obviously with a lack of any experience in identifying geological samples, I couldn't even guess what they were, but at the same time I certainly can't say it isn't Te compounds.
Mr. Johnson - thank you for your answers. I had suspected that there was "something" different about what's called the Kochera Ore even though photographs I've seen of it seem like something the matchbox could easily be made from.
Out of curiosity, as one moves in different directions in a gold ore vein is it possible that the same elements can remain the same, but the individual amounts and "mix" (for lack of a better word) can change? If that's the case, is it possible that the Kochera ore did come from the same "mine" that Waltz had, but just from a different location than where he got the ore that went into the matchbox?
I wish I had studied geology long ago when I was still able to retain much of what I read
. Can't one of you write a "Gold Ore Formation for Dummies" book and publish it? I'll preorder a copy .One significant disability I have is learning things without seeing examples in front of me. I can look at photographs of rocks with their names and descriptions all day long, but would be more than hard pressed to pick one up in nature and identify what it is. I'm a "visual learning" person - field work has always been the major way I learn. Sadly in a case like this, without spending some significant time with a minerologist / geologist / mining professional doing "hands on" studying and learning, I'm afraid I'm destined to be a remedial gold ore student.
I hope the thread continues though as every little bit helps me try to visualize what I need.
Oro - thanks for the gold ore study guide link earlier as well!
Paul
Re: The Gold
oroblanco,
Found a better photo taken at the house of the man who owns the Jewelry ore, Matchbox. Scanned it and hope it reproduces fairly well. It's still not the best but can at least see what I'm talking about. The black inclusions in the main body are the tellurium and compounds along with saphralite which accompanies this type of deposit.
The tellurium can really be seen and picked up in the small triangles at the top (lid).
The jewler who made the matchbox used the dark ore for the triangles to contrast the main body but in doing so preserved the best geology of the overall deposit and the triangles are where the Te compounds really spiked on the SEM-EDS test machine.
Hope this is a clearer image.
Found a better photo taken at the house of the man who owns the Jewelry ore, Matchbox. Scanned it and hope it reproduces fairly well. It's still not the best but can at least see what I'm talking about. The black inclusions in the main body are the tellurium and compounds along with saphralite which accompanies this type of deposit.
The tellurium can really be seen and picked up in the small triangles at the top (lid).
The jewler who made the matchbox used the dark ore for the triangles to contrast the main body but in doing so preserved the best geology of the overall deposit and the triangles are where the Te compounds really spiked on the SEM-EDS test machine.
Hope this is a clearer image.
- Attachments
-
- Dutchman ore Matchbox.jpg (77.85 KiB) Viewed 21795 times
Re: The Gold
Thank you WW, that is a MUCH better photo; however that said, isn't Calaverite normally silvery, silvery-white or brassy yellow and not black? Sylvanite likewise is silvery in color, and would have shown up in the assay done by Holmes as a high silver content which was not the case.
For our readers, here is more on Calaverite, a gold telluride mineral;
http://www.galleries.com/minerals/sulfi ... laveri.htm
excellent photos of calaverite
http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?min=852
Sylvanite can get a black tarnish, but this would have been removed by the jeweler cutting the ore specimen to make the matchbox.
I guess that I have to respectfully disagree, and say that I do not see any evidence of gold telluride in the matchbox attributed to Jacob Waltz. Besides, gold tellurides are more closely associated with epithermal type deposits, and I see no reason to think of Waltz's mine as epithermal in nature - not based on the available information anyway.
Oroblanco
For our readers, here is more on Calaverite, a gold telluride mineral;
http://www.galleries.com/minerals/sulfi ... laveri.htm
excellent photos of calaverite
http://www.mindat.org/gallery.php?min=852
Sylvanite can get a black tarnish, but this would have been removed by the jeweler cutting the ore specimen to make the matchbox.
I guess that I have to respectfully disagree, and say that I do not see any evidence of gold telluride in the matchbox attributed to Jacob Waltz. Besides, gold tellurides are more closely associated with epithermal type deposits, and I see no reason to think of Waltz's mine as epithermal in nature - not based on the available information anyway.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Gold
oroblanco,
Thats all right, I think we can both agree to disagree and still respect each others views and beliefs.
Do you have an opinion on how and why Mr. Glover determined the presence of gold tellurium compound in the Jewelry and Camp ore samples with his testing ? Was he mistaken ? Was his testing in error ?
We can disagree and be friends and move on but that is the 4000 pound elephant in the room with us and he's kind of hard to ignore.
I understand if you don't want to acknowledge that elephant.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Thats all right, I think we can both agree to disagree and still respect each others views and beliefs.
Do you have an opinion on how and why Mr. Glover determined the presence of gold tellurium compound in the Jewelry and Camp ore samples with his testing ? Was he mistaken ? Was his testing in error ?
We can disagree and be friends and move on but that is the 4000 pound elephant in the room with us and he's kind of hard to ignore.
I understand if you don't want to acknowledge that elephant.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Re: The Gold
For the sake of our readers who may not be experienced prospectors, here is a bit of info on the two types of gold deposit we are debating.
The site does not have a good description of the minerals commonly associated with hypothermal, however they are largely the same as for mesothermal. Hence it would be an important point if gold tellurides were positively identified as present in Dutchman gold ore; however at this point it is a matter of personal interpretation and I fail to see anything that I can say is a telluride with confidence. The black mineral could be something quite different and I suspect it is, and there are many, many different black colored minerals. Were I to venture a GUESS as to what that black mineral may be, that we can see on the matchbox, I would say it is likely sphalerite. (Zinc-sulphide, which is often black) Unfortunately sphalerite does not help ID whether an ore is epithermal or mesothermal as it occurs in all types.
WW Johnson wrote
As for your questions, I cannot find where Dr Glover mentioned a positive identification of any tellurides in the ore, in his book. Can you point me to the correct page? Thank you in advance. I can't agree that it is necessarily an "elephant in the room" in fact it looks rather as if there is some misinformation in play. I think I may have mentioned it to you before, but I cannot make conclusions on un-published tests or reports, I am forced to rely on published materials as well as my own eyes. You and Klondike have repeatedly made statements about the Dutchman ore being epithermal and having tellurides, which is not in agreement with the evidence we can look at - so until we can see something to back up those assertions I remain respectfully un-convinced, and will stick to a different opinion on what Dutchman ore should be classified as.
Roy
<From http://earthsci.org/mineral/mindep/depf ... p.htm#hypo>Mesothermal Type
Characteristics
Mesothermal type- moderate temperatures (200-300°C) and pressures, (approximately 1-5 km depth).
*sulphides include chalcopyrite, sphalerite, galena, tetrahedrite, bornite and chalcocite.
*gangue includes quartz, carbonates (calcite, siderite, rhodochrosite) and pyrite.
*most show abundant replacement phenomena.
*some associated with ultramafic rocks including listwanites (fuchsite ormariposite (green mica) bearing altered varieties).
*ribbon structures parallel to vein walls.
*includes 'porphyry' copper type deposits.
*extensive alteration zones with varying amounts of sericite, quartz, calcite,doIomite, pyrite, orthoclase, chlorite and clay minerals.
*closely related to igneous rocks, both spatially and genetically.
Classic 'examples' include: Motherlode District, California; Coeur d'Alene District, Idaho; Cassiar District, B.C. and Archean lode gold deposits in Ontario, Quebec and Manitoba.
Epithermal Type
Characteristics
Epithermal - comparatively low temperatures (50-200°C). The three types grade into one another.
*deposited normally within 1,000 m (3,000 ft.) of surface; average 350 metres.
*form as vein fillings, irregular branching fissures, stockworks or breccia pipes.
*open space fillings are common and include vugs, drusy cavities, cockscomb textures, crustifications, and symmetrical banding (generally conspicuous).
*colIoidal eextures are characteristic implying free circulation of fluids.
*repeated cycles of mineralization are evident, including rebrecciation and multistage banding.
*in older rocks, these deposits have usually been removed by erosion unless preserved by down faulting, etc.
*majority of deposits are Tertiary in age (esp. SW USA), however, some are much older, e.g. Toodoggone deposits are early Jurassic (approximately 180 Ma).
*wallrock alteration is typically widespread and conspicuous, esp. chlorite, sericite, alunite, zeolites, adularia, silica, pyrite and calcite.
*Ore mineralogy includes: sulfantimonides and sulfarsenides (polybasite, stephanite, pearceite, pyrargyrite, proustite and others), gold and silver tellurides (sylvanite, calaverite and hessite), stibnite, argentite (acanthite), cinnabar, native mercury, electrum, native gold, native silver, selenides and minor galena, sphalerite and chalcopyrite.
*Gangue mineralogy includes quartz, amethyst, chalcedony, adularia, calcite, rhodochrosite, barite, fluorite and hematite.
*striking analogies to modern hot springs.
*Often so diluted with ground water that mineral content is quite low (typical striking analogies to modern hot springs
*Often so diluted with ground water that mineral content is quite low (typical sinters); however, some do contain sulphides and free gold, e.g. Steamboat Springs, Nevada.
*deposits are formed in extensional tectonic settings with local normal faulting
*large scale volcanic collapse structures.
*veins are never uniformly mineralized along strike. generally less than 20% of the total vein is mineralized.
*vertical zoning is common
*andesites are more common country rocks.
*economically, deposits are attractive because they have a high unit value of precious metals (esp. 'bonanza' types) with generally low or no base metals.
Commonly reserves include tonnages less than 1 million tonnes but with good grades (17 g/tonne gold). They have a relatively short but productive mine life, providing a quick payback and high rates of return on modest amounts of invested capital.
Classic examples include: Creede, Colorado; Toodoggone Camp, B.C.; Blackdome, B.C.; Premier, B.C.; Comstock Lode, Nevada and Pachuca, Mexico.
The site does not have a good description of the minerals commonly associated with hypothermal, however they are largely the same as for mesothermal. Hence it would be an important point if gold tellurides were positively identified as present in Dutchman gold ore; however at this point it is a matter of personal interpretation and I fail to see anything that I can say is a telluride with confidence. The black mineral could be something quite different and I suspect it is, and there are many, many different black colored minerals. Were I to venture a GUESS as to what that black mineral may be, that we can see on the matchbox, I would say it is likely sphalerite. (Zinc-sulphide, which is often black) Unfortunately sphalerite does not help ID whether an ore is epithermal or mesothermal as it occurs in all types.
WW Johnson wrote
I can certainly agree to disagree and NOT be offended in the least by any difference of opinion(s). I hope for the same consideration in return, as any difference of opinion really has no bearing on friendship.oroblanco,
Thats all right, I think we can both agree to disagree and still respect each others views and beliefs.
Do you have an opinion on how and why Mr. Glover determined the presence of gold tellurium compound in the Jewelry and Camp ore samples with his testing ? Was he mistaken ? Was his testing in error ?
We can disagree and be friends and move on but that is the 4000 pound elephant in the room with us and he's kind of hard to ignore.
I understand if you don't want to acknowledge that elephant.
Will Johnson
As for your questions, I cannot find where Dr Glover mentioned a positive identification of any tellurides in the ore, in his book. Can you point me to the correct page? Thank you in advance. I can't agree that it is necessarily an "elephant in the room" in fact it looks rather as if there is some misinformation in play. I think I may have mentioned it to you before, but I cannot make conclusions on un-published tests or reports, I am forced to rely on published materials as well as my own eyes. You and Klondike have repeatedly made statements about the Dutchman ore being epithermal and having tellurides, which is not in agreement with the evidence we can look at - so until we can see something to back up those assertions I remain respectfully un-convinced, and will stick to a different opinion on what Dutchman ore should be classified as.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Gold
PS <as if my last post were not long enough already> it occurred to me that some of our readers may not understand the hairs we are splitting here, so it might be helpful to post a good photo of a gold ore that is mesothermal, and thus everyone can compare to the excellent photo just posted by our amigo WW (for which I thank you again)
Here is the photo
Here is the description that accompanies it,
Note the gold closely associated with the black mineral which in this case are iron oxide and may be what we see in the matchbox ore. This is a major part of my problem with calling the Dutchman ore epithermal, for to my eye it more closely resembles the other types. I am just an old prospector however, not a geologist and could be fooled.
Oroblanco
Here is the photo
Here is the description that accompanies it,
<borrowed from http://nevada-outback-gems.com which has other beautiful specimens for sale as well>Small bits of gold are scattered through this piece of mesothermal vein quartz from the mother lode region of California. The gold is mostly concentrated around the edges of dark colored spots of iron oxide that were likely originally clots of pyrite. This is very rich gold ore.
Note the gold closely associated with the black mineral which in this case are iron oxide and may be what we see in the matchbox ore. This is a major part of my problem with calling the Dutchman ore epithermal, for to my eye it more closely resembles the other types. I am just an old prospector however, not a geologist and could be fooled.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Gold
Hello Mr. Johnson,
Wow.
Great series of posts and enough geological material to whet the appetite of anyone interested in understanding ore deposition not only in the Superstitions but anywhere.
You are right that geological processes are multidimensional and cannot be understood by simply scanning the last page of the book.
You have accomplished what is very difficult. You have replaced voodoo geology with scientific geology and your intent is honorable. Simply said you have let the rocks speak for themselves. Whether folks will listen is another matter alltogether.
Your comments will stand the test of time. Others will not.
A tip of the hat to you.
Klondike
Wow.
Great series of posts and enough geological material to whet the appetite of anyone interested in understanding ore deposition not only in the Superstitions but anywhere.
You are right that geological processes are multidimensional and cannot be understood by simply scanning the last page of the book.
You have accomplished what is very difficult. You have replaced voodoo geology with scientific geology and your intent is honorable. Simply said you have let the rocks speak for themselves. Whether folks will listen is another matter alltogether.
Your comments will stand the test of time. Others will not.
A tip of the hat to you.
Klondike
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Gold
Ben,
[You are right that geological processes are multidimensional and cannot be understood by simply scanning the last page of the book.
You have accomplished what is very difficult. You have replaced voodoo geology with scientific geology and your intent is honorable. Simply said you have let the rocks speak for themselves. Whether folks will listen is another matter alltogether.
Your comments will stand the test of time. Others will not.]
Since I only see the statements about ore on this Forum, I assume you are referring to people who have been posting there opinions here.
I don't make definitive statements about rocks, so don't see how you could be talking about me. That only leaves a few others that you could be insulting. I know Roy personally, and have always found him to be an extremely knowledgeable man.
While we don't always agree, I have never thought he might be bloviating or presenting facts that he has no credible source for.
Your own credibility, in whatever identity you may be using, has always been in question. I have enumerated those nicks in your personality many times on this Forum, as have many other members.
No doubt you will find this post insulting, but I can easily provide the posts and emails that will, factually, back up my statements.
You may be correct about the ore thingie, but you might be able to understand my reluctance to take your opinion on the matter, over Roy's. It's all a matter of comfort/confidence with source.
Take care,
Joe
[You are right that geological processes are multidimensional and cannot be understood by simply scanning the last page of the book.
You have accomplished what is very difficult. You have replaced voodoo geology with scientific geology and your intent is honorable. Simply said you have let the rocks speak for themselves. Whether folks will listen is another matter alltogether.
Your comments will stand the test of time. Others will not.]
Since I only see the statements about ore on this Forum, I assume you are referring to people who have been posting there opinions here.
I don't make definitive statements about rocks, so don't see how you could be talking about me. That only leaves a few others that you could be insulting. I know Roy personally, and have always found him to be an extremely knowledgeable man.
While we don't always agree, I have never thought he might be bloviating or presenting facts that he has no credible source for.
Your own credibility, in whatever identity you may be using, has always been in question. I have enumerated those nicks in your personality many times on this Forum, as have many other members.
No doubt you will find this post insulting, but I can easily provide the posts and emails that will, factually, back up my statements.
You may be correct about the ore thingie, but you might be able to understand my reluctance to take your opinion on the matter, over Roy's. It's all a matter of comfort/confidence with source.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Gold
Mr. Ribaudo,
If this was a baseball game it would have been called in the fifth inning, with the utilization of the mercy rule. This is not about personalites or anything else.
As I said Mr. Johnsons`s comments will stand the test of time because they are geologically sound and relate to the phenomena at hand. The simple fact is he is the only one who has presented a theory that is understandable and based on the rocks in question.
This is not about Roy, Joe or anyone else, it is simply about opening you eyes and seeing what has always been right in front of you. The rocks.
Take the opportunity to learn something.
Klondike
If this was a baseball game it would have been called in the fifth inning, with the utilization of the mercy rule. This is not about personalites or anything else.
As I said Mr. Johnsons`s comments will stand the test of time because they are geologically sound and relate to the phenomena at hand. The simple fact is he is the only one who has presented a theory that is understandable and based on the rocks in question.
This is not about Roy, Joe or anyone else, it is simply about opening you eyes and seeing what has always been right in front of you. The rocks.
Take the opportunity to learn something.
Klondike
Re: The Gold
Klondike,
I agree that I (speaking for myself) can certainly be educated in regards to geology and mineral formation, but the tellurium issue is another matter.
Simply put, there just isn't any public documented evidence that Te exists in the jewelry or "camp ore" samples. While it's quite possible some people have access to that information, it's not something that (at least to this point) can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt - at least not publicly.
It's sort of a dichotomy when it comes to Treasure Hunters from what I've seen. On the one hand, we are inherently dreamers at heart - however on the other hand, we often require irrefutable proof of something's existence. I think that's probably because we know we can't chase down every little story and legend we hear - there just isn't enough time in one life for that. Therefore we have to hear or see enough documented evidence to convince us that something is more than just a "good story" to follow a lead.
I have the ability through my job to identify tellurium - perhaps this next fall I'll get a chance to find some quartz samples throughout the Superstitions to analyze when I get home and at least try to prove to myself that tellurium does exist out there.
Until that time, it's just one man's words (or two in this case - hehe) against others with little hope of irrefutable proof being presented.
Paul
I agree that I (speaking for myself) can certainly be educated in regards to geology and mineral formation, but the tellurium issue is another matter.
Simply put, there just isn't any public documented evidence that Te exists in the jewelry or "camp ore" samples. While it's quite possible some people have access to that information, it's not something that (at least to this point) can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt - at least not publicly.
It's sort of a dichotomy when it comes to Treasure Hunters from what I've seen. On the one hand, we are inherently dreamers at heart - however on the other hand, we often require irrefutable proof of something's existence. I think that's probably because we know we can't chase down every little story and legend we hear - there just isn't enough time in one life for that. Therefore we have to hear or see enough documented evidence to convince us that something is more than just a "good story" to follow a lead.
I have the ability through my job to identify tellurium - perhaps this next fall I'll get a chance to find some quartz samples throughout the Superstitions to analyze when I get home and at least try to prove to myself that tellurium does exist out there.
Until that time, it's just one man's words (or two in this case - hehe) against others with little hope of irrefutable proof being presented.
Paul
Re: The Gold
Hello Paul,
In a sense we are all students of Geology, the only teacher is the earth and how well we listen to her will dictate our degree of success or failure and I might add a degree of luck.
In the past the Geology of the Camp and Jewelry Ore has been presented in a way that I call Voodoo Geology. It was not even an attempt to explain the ore only a general discussion of similarity. A discusssion that takes you no where.
I would hope folks will take Mr. Johnson`s remarks and simply put wonder.That is be amazed. Realize the world is not flat, and while proof is not being offered that it is round be excited enough to prove for yourself it is round. You have been given more, far more than has ever been given in the past.
Will Mr. Johnson`s comments stand the test of time. Yes they will. That is not a criticism of others. It is a recognition of what has happened.
Klondike
In a sense we are all students of Geology, the only teacher is the earth and how well we listen to her will dictate our degree of success or failure and I might add a degree of luck.
In the past the Geology of the Camp and Jewelry Ore has been presented in a way that I call Voodoo Geology. It was not even an attempt to explain the ore only a general discussion of similarity. A discusssion that takes you no where.
I would hope folks will take Mr. Johnson`s remarks and simply put wonder.That is be amazed. Realize the world is not flat, and while proof is not being offered that it is round be excited enough to prove for yourself it is round. You have been given more, far more than has ever been given in the past.
Will Mr. Johnson`s comments stand the test of time. Yes they will. That is not a criticism of others. It is a recognition of what has happened.
Klondike
Re: The Gold
cubfan64,
I don't expect anyone here to believe anything they don't want to and am not trying to convince anyone of anything or change anyones minds or win some kind of argument. I stated a fact and it's everyones right to either believe it or not. It couldn't make less difference to me.
oroblanco disagrees with me and thats fine, he's a good person and has a right to his beliefs based on his own information and I have no hard feelings whatsoever toward him or over the disagreement.
What I said CAN be verified very easily. Just ask Mr. Glover if his analysis of the Jewelry and Camp ores confirmed the presence of Te compound gold.
Its pretty starightforward, yes or no. No need to make him explain anything or give a long detailed speech or give away any further information, just a simple, short, yes or no. Of course I already know what the answer is or I wouldn't be suggesting it. I don't see what a short yes or no would hurt or why there would be any objection. It would settle the matter to everyones satisfaction. Mr. Glover has the computer printouts of the SEM-EDS results for testing every element present in all the ore samples and those printouts are very easy to read. All you need is a table of the elements to define Au=gold, Ag= Silver Te= Tellurium and so on. It's right there on the printout as plain as can be. Anyone can debate the findings that were printed in Mr Glovers book about the ore testing because it so generic and confusing there is no way to sort it out or define anything about it. But the computer printouts are rock soldid evidence. If someone wants to argue with them they just plain like to argue.
I believe someone in a past thread posted they were close friends with Mr. Glover and called him on another question, I don't remember the exact issue then. It was either oroblanco or yourself or someone else. It was not that long ago.
I don't see why the same couldn't be done here. I would do it if I had his number but if I did you would just say I am lying and he really didn't say there was Te in the Jewelry and Camp ore and this would go round and round forever. It has to be either oroblanco or someone neutral. I trust oroblanco to give the forum Mr. Glover's answer so he would be a good one to make the call if he knows Mr. Glover. Or yourself maybe if you know Mr. Glover. Someone here knows him and has contact with him, I'm just not sure who.
It makes no difference to me but that would be a good way to verify things.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
I don't expect anyone here to believe anything they don't want to and am not trying to convince anyone of anything or change anyones minds or win some kind of argument. I stated a fact and it's everyones right to either believe it or not. It couldn't make less difference to me.
oroblanco disagrees with me and thats fine, he's a good person and has a right to his beliefs based on his own information and I have no hard feelings whatsoever toward him or over the disagreement.
What I said CAN be verified very easily. Just ask Mr. Glover if his analysis of the Jewelry and Camp ores confirmed the presence of Te compound gold.
Its pretty starightforward, yes or no. No need to make him explain anything or give a long detailed speech or give away any further information, just a simple, short, yes or no. Of course I already know what the answer is or I wouldn't be suggesting it. I don't see what a short yes or no would hurt or why there would be any objection. It would settle the matter to everyones satisfaction. Mr. Glover has the computer printouts of the SEM-EDS results for testing every element present in all the ore samples and those printouts are very easy to read. All you need is a table of the elements to define Au=gold, Ag= Silver Te= Tellurium and so on. It's right there on the printout as plain as can be. Anyone can debate the findings that were printed in Mr Glovers book about the ore testing because it so generic and confusing there is no way to sort it out or define anything about it. But the computer printouts are rock soldid evidence. If someone wants to argue with them they just plain like to argue.
I believe someone in a past thread posted they were close friends with Mr. Glover and called him on another question, I don't remember the exact issue then. It was either oroblanco or yourself or someone else. It was not that long ago.
I don't see why the same couldn't be done here. I would do it if I had his number but if I did you would just say I am lying and he really didn't say there was Te in the Jewelry and Camp ore and this would go round and round forever. It has to be either oroblanco or someone neutral. I trust oroblanco to give the forum Mr. Glover's answer so he would be a good one to make the call if he knows Mr. Glover. Or yourself maybe if you know Mr. Glover. Someone here knows him and has contact with him, I'm just not sure who.
It makes no difference to me but that would be a good way to verify things.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Gold
Mr. Johnson,
That was probably me. Even though I have Dr. Glover's phone number, I usually just email him. He gets back to me as quickly as he can.
Since you already know the answer to your question, there seems little point in asking him. I don't doubt that there is no TE in the tests that he had done, but I wasn't privy to all of his reports.
Do you have a report of your own on the ores? Perhaps that was more extensive than what Dr. Glover had done. That would make sense to me, as you seem to be an expert on geology. Dr. Glover, I believe, mainly went on the information given to him by the professionals he consulted. We have never, that I can remember, talked about any training he might have had it that field.
On the other hand, the one thing I am sure of, is that I can trust whatever he tells me. These days, there are not many people I can say that about.
If you want me to ask him the question, I will be happy to do that.
Take care,
Joe
That was probably me. Even though I have Dr. Glover's phone number, I usually just email him. He gets back to me as quickly as he can.
Since you already know the answer to your question, there seems little point in asking him. I don't doubt that there is no TE in the tests that he had done, but I wasn't privy to all of his reports.
Do you have a report of your own on the ores? Perhaps that was more extensive than what Dr. Glover had done. That would make sense to me, as you seem to be an expert on geology. Dr. Glover, I believe, mainly went on the information given to him by the professionals he consulted. We have never, that I can remember, talked about any training he might have had it that field.
On the other hand, the one thing I am sure of, is that I can trust whatever he tells me. These days, there are not many people I can say that about.
If you want me to ask him the question, I will be happy to do that.
Take care,
Joe
-
Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Gold
Ben,klondike wrote:Mr. Ribaudo,
If this was a baseball game it would have been called in the fifth inning, with the utilization of the mercy rule. This is not about personalites or anything else.
As I said Mr. Johnsons`s comments will stand the test of time because they are geologically sound and relate to the phenomena at hand. The simple fact is he is the only one who has presented a theory that is understandable and based on the rocks in question.
This is not about Roy, Joe or anyone else, it is simply about opening you eyes and seeing what has always been right in front of you. The rocks.
Take the opportunity to learn something.
Klondike
I don't question your knowledge on the subject, just your record here, based on email's and posts. You are correct in that it's not about me, but it's really all about you. Even though it's possible that Roy is wrong (how would I know?) I have to base my perception on his history.......and yours.
I assume you also base your perceptions of me, on our exchanges of email's, posts and one telephone conversation. I'm ok with that, as it's probably a pretty accurate opinion from your viewpoint. I have no doubt that you equate this whole Forum to a baseball game.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Gold
JoeRibaudo,
The testing Mr Glover did was as extensive and detailed as any ore analysis could be for the early 1990's. SEM scans the ore sample for all 98 elements which occur in nature naturally and gives you a readout of all the elements present, along with the size and weight ratio to the other elements. Thats pretty extensive don't you think ?
I'm not a geology expert but did pay attention in Chemestry class and know enough when I'm around someone who is an expert to keep quiet and learn from them. The internet is probably the worst place to try and teach yourself about geology. All you do by that is search for things that (seem) to enforce the beliefs you already have picked up from other equally irrelevant sites. By the time your done you feel like an expert but out in the field it somehow just doesn't look like it did on those websites.
How about asking cubfan to call Mr. Glover and ask him the question ? He seems to be interested and open to getting to the bottom of the ore issues.
I was driven out of the mountains monday by the rain and wind so am going back in tonight for a few days and finish up what I had started out there.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
The testing Mr Glover did was as extensive and detailed as any ore analysis could be for the early 1990's. SEM scans the ore sample for all 98 elements which occur in nature naturally and gives you a readout of all the elements present, along with the size and weight ratio to the other elements. Thats pretty extensive don't you think ?
I'm not a geology expert but did pay attention in Chemestry class and know enough when I'm around someone who is an expert to keep quiet and learn from them. The internet is probably the worst place to try and teach yourself about geology. All you do by that is search for things that (seem) to enforce the beliefs you already have picked up from other equally irrelevant sites. By the time your done you feel like an expert but out in the field it somehow just doesn't look like it did on those websites.
How about asking cubfan to call Mr. Glover and ask him the question ? He seems to be interested and open to getting to the bottom of the ore issues.
I was driven out of the mountains monday by the rain and wind so am going back in tonight for a few days and finish up what I had started out there.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction