Can`t seem to reconcile the pictures of the gold I have seen from under the Dutchman`s bed with accounts of the gold found in Mr. Ely`s book. Can anybody help.
I did read Mr. Glover`s ore analysis. No disrespect intended but what a bunch of nonsense. Mesothermal Quartz so what. That doesen`t tell you hoot about the deposit.
Klondike
The Gold
There are several pieces of deathbed ore as well as what was used in the Match stick box I believe. For obvious reasons I doubt it will be openly spoken where such things are curently. Dick Holmes had 2 items that were made from the ore, which currently survive. The Match stick box is on the cover of Corbins book. As far as the ore as described in Dutchman lore, it is described differently. One such description matches the picture you mention. Another description is quite different and I am sure causes a bit of a quandry. Which is an accurate description of the ore? It could be both or that there were 2 sources one of which may not be the Peralta/Waltz ore as believed. Only Waltz would know and could explain all.
The Gold
So if we are dealing with multiple gold samples from different deposits how it is any one mine can be said to be the legendary dutchman?
Guess gold samples would led to endless debate unless a primary source document existed to tie the dutchman to a particular mine or mines.
Who can say where the gold from under the dutchman`s bed came from? If that Gold was stolen while Julia was selling tickets and conjuring up devils then the credibility of that Gold is highly suspect. Jewelery made from stolen gold is still stolen. Maybe the thief mixed the gold from under Waltz`s bed with other stolen gold.
What a mess. Maybe easier to find the loch ness monster.
Thank you for your response.
Klondike
Guess gold samples would led to endless debate unless a primary source document existed to tie the dutchman to a particular mine or mines.
Who can say where the gold from under the dutchman`s bed came from? If that Gold was stolen while Julia was selling tickets and conjuring up devils then the credibility of that Gold is highly suspect. Jewelery made from stolen gold is still stolen. Maybe the thief mixed the gold from under Waltz`s bed with other stolen gold.
What a mess. Maybe easier to find the loch ness monster.
Thank you for your response.
Klondike
If you take the various Native American stories at face value and according to general vicinity, there would be several mines located and/or operated within the wilderness at various times. Which mine is the LDM?
There is one that is located somewhere in the needle canyon vicinity and another further north and east according to accounts. Add in Senners ore which is lying about somewhere and the massacre ore which may not be Dutchman ore per say.
I have seen 2 examples of ore which were brought from within the wilderness area. They were different in makeup from what I could see. A third of which I do not know its origin is different than the previous 2, but I located it some distance from the other two discoveries.
LDM did post some pictures of different ores I believe earlier this year that fit some of the varied descriptions of the differing accounts. Those pictures are gone now unfortunately.
There is one that is located somewhere in the needle canyon vicinity and another further north and east according to accounts. Add in Senners ore which is lying about somewhere and the massacre ore which may not be Dutchman ore per say.
I have seen 2 examples of ore which were brought from within the wilderness area. They were different in makeup from what I could see. A third of which I do not know its origin is different than the previous 2, but I located it some distance from the other two discoveries.
LDM did post some pictures of different ores I believe earlier this year that fit some of the varied descriptions of the differing accounts. Those pictures are gone now unfortunately.
The gold
I grant that there are deposits of gold in the Superstitions. Who knows really who is working them and where they exist. The Apache`s are likely suspects along with prospectors who keep themselves beneath the radar screen and their mouths shut.
The LDM is a different matter. The LDM refers to a particular mine or group of mines that Waltz was involved in. These mines are as much a historical phemomena as a geological phenomena.
The history is far more difficult to understand than the Geology.
One would think that some record of the Waltz and his visit to Mexico would be found with Peralta family members in Mexico? And if he didn`t visit Mexico are we forced back to the Holmes nonsense?
Klondike
The LDM is a different matter. The LDM refers to a particular mine or group of mines that Waltz was involved in. These mines are as much a historical phemomena as a geological phenomena.
The history is far more difficult to understand than the Geology.
One would think that some record of the Waltz and his visit to Mexico would be found with Peralta family members in Mexico? And if he didn`t visit Mexico are we forced back to the Holmes nonsense?
Klondike
The Gold
Epithermal
1. One Kilometer surface. Temperature 50-200C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Tellurides, Carbonates, Pyrite, Sulfur Minerals.
3. locations: Cripple Creek Colorado, Telluride Colorado,
Mesothermal
1. Considerable Depth. Temperature: 200-300C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Sericite, Pyrites.
3. locations: Mother Lode, California, Grass Valley, California.
Hypothermal
1. Great Depth. Temperature 300-500C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Sericite, Pyrite, Chlorite.
3. locations: Homestake Mine, S.D., Dahlonege, Ga., Porcupine, Ontario.
Deposit formation temperatures are not quartz crystallization temperatures.
Kochera Ore: Mesothemal Deposit, Manganese replacement.
Goldfield Ore:( Mammoth, Black Queen, Bulldog, Wasp) Mesothermal Deposit, Manganese replacement.
Kochera Ore and Goldfield Ores different mineralogy.
Camp Ore: Epithermal deposit. similar to matchbox ore.
Matchbox Ore/Dutchman Ore: Epithermal, High Sulfur Content. Tellurides, kaolinite, pyrite, quartz, alunite, Associated with a known Caldera Complex.
LDM 1 Ore: Epithermal, Tellurides, Kaolinite, Associated with an unknown Caldera Complex.
Prospecting Targets: Rogers Canyon, North. Iron Mountain, Pinto Creek. Western Portion of Range, Salt River.
Goodbye,
Klondike
1. One Kilometer surface. Temperature 50-200C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Tellurides, Carbonates, Pyrite, Sulfur Minerals.
3. locations: Cripple Creek Colorado, Telluride Colorado,
Mesothermal
1. Considerable Depth. Temperature: 200-300C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Sericite, Pyrites.
3. locations: Mother Lode, California, Grass Valley, California.
Hypothermal
1. Great Depth. Temperature 300-500C.
2. Major associated minerals: Quartz, Sericite, Pyrite, Chlorite.
3. locations: Homestake Mine, S.D., Dahlonege, Ga., Porcupine, Ontario.
Deposit formation temperatures are not quartz crystallization temperatures.
Kochera Ore: Mesothemal Deposit, Manganese replacement.
Goldfield Ore:( Mammoth, Black Queen, Bulldog, Wasp) Mesothermal Deposit, Manganese replacement.
Kochera Ore and Goldfield Ores different mineralogy.
Camp Ore: Epithermal deposit. similar to matchbox ore.
Matchbox Ore/Dutchman Ore: Epithermal, High Sulfur Content. Tellurides, kaolinite, pyrite, quartz, alunite, Associated with a known Caldera Complex.
LDM 1 Ore: Epithermal, Tellurides, Kaolinite, Associated with an unknown Caldera Complex.
Prospecting Targets: Rogers Canyon, North. Iron Mountain, Pinto Creek. Western Portion of Range, Salt River.
Goodbye,
Klondike
-
Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
The Gold
Mr. Fieldman,
1. Deposit Formation temperatures are not quartz crystallization temperatures.
2. Since Quartz forms first in a deposit ahead of iron sulfides, spaherlite, enagrite, chalcopyrite, gold, the silver minerals etc., quartz very well maybe mesothermal in nature with the mineralogy of the deposit being epithermal.
3. Therefore prospecting targets for matchbook/dutchman ore are epithermal deposits associated with a known Caldera Complex based on mineralogy of deposit as discussed in my post.
4. LDM 1 is a hidden deposit not available to normal prospecting tools.
A needle in a haystack.
Thank You for your response. Have to catch a plane.
Great website. A lot of excellent material.
Klondike
1. Deposit Formation temperatures are not quartz crystallization temperatures.
2. Since Quartz forms first in a deposit ahead of iron sulfides, spaherlite, enagrite, chalcopyrite, gold, the silver minerals etc., quartz very well maybe mesothermal in nature with the mineralogy of the deposit being epithermal.
3. Therefore prospecting targets for matchbook/dutchman ore are epithermal deposits associated with a known Caldera Complex based on mineralogy of deposit as discussed in my post.
4. LDM 1 is a hidden deposit not available to normal prospecting tools.
A needle in a haystack.
Thank You for your response. Have to catch a plane.
Great website. A lot of excellent material.
Klondike
-
Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
-
Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
The Gold
Mr. Feldman,
Let`s try this differently.
1. Assuming for the moment that the matchbox ore is high sulfur, contains enargite, pyrite, quartz-alunite-gold, kaolinite, with tellurides, what does that suggest to you the deposit is. Is it epithermal, mesothermal or hypothermal?
2. What would you consider to be possible prospecting targets for such a deposit in the Superstitions? Maybe The West Pinto Creek area?
3. What does this suggest to you regarding Mr. Glover`s ore analysis? If anything.
Thank You,
Klondike
Let`s try this differently.
1. Assuming for the moment that the matchbox ore is high sulfur, contains enargite, pyrite, quartz-alunite-gold, kaolinite, with tellurides, what does that suggest to you the deposit is. Is it epithermal, mesothermal or hypothermal?
2. What would you consider to be possible prospecting targets for such a deposit in the Superstitions? Maybe The West Pinto Creek area?
3. What does this suggest to you regarding Mr. Glover`s ore analysis? If anything.
Thank You,
Klondike
One final thought
Mr. Feldman,
Also:
1. Does the utilization of the terms mesothermic quartz, epithermic quartz, really tell one anything about the ore deposit, samples in question? A number of epthermal ore deposits have quartzes that one can say are mesothermal. Examples would include Goldfield, Nevada, The Ophir, and Mexican Mines on the Comstock, and Mines in South Africia, (The Rand), and the Cresson Blow Out in Colorado.
2. Why even frame a discussion of ore samples, deposits in these terms to even begin with. Quartz is a commen mineral in deposits whether or not they are mesothermal, epithermal, or hypothermal. What is fundamentally different about all of these deposits is the mineral assemblages that accompany the quartz.
3. For example the Camp Ore and Matchbox Ore have been both tested and show to be epithermal deposits with differences in mineralogy. Does it make any sense to say one has epithermal quartz and another has mesothermal quartz when it is not uncommen to see epithermal ore deposits with quartz crystallization temperatures of 300C. Describing ore deposits in terms of quartz crystallization temperatures alone is my humble opinion nuts. And sometimes worst than nuts. It hides more than it reveals.
Klondike
Also:
1. Does the utilization of the terms mesothermic quartz, epithermic quartz, really tell one anything about the ore deposit, samples in question? A number of epthermal ore deposits have quartzes that one can say are mesothermal. Examples would include Goldfield, Nevada, The Ophir, and Mexican Mines on the Comstock, and Mines in South Africia, (The Rand), and the Cresson Blow Out in Colorado.
2. Why even frame a discussion of ore samples, deposits in these terms to even begin with. Quartz is a commen mineral in deposits whether or not they are mesothermal, epithermal, or hypothermal. What is fundamentally different about all of these deposits is the mineral assemblages that accompany the quartz.
3. For example the Camp Ore and Matchbox Ore have been both tested and show to be epithermal deposits with differences in mineralogy. Does it make any sense to say one has epithermal quartz and another has mesothermal quartz when it is not uncommen to see epithermal ore deposits with quartz crystallization temperatures of 300C. Describing ore deposits in terms of quartz crystallization temperatures alone is my humble opinion nuts. And sometimes worst than nuts. It hides more than it reveals.
Klondike
-
Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Eldorado,
I almost feel the same about this, however, everyone into all that is Dutchman should be interested in where Dutchman ore came from.
Klondike,
If I understand you correctly, you are pointing out that the mineralization of the ore is more important than what degrees the quartz was deposited at; that by looking at the ore, with the naked eye, one can see if the ore is similar to Dutchman ores; that this simple technique is good enough. This is probably what all of us have used in the field..., and I agree with your prospecting targets, but still have some confusion as to how you explain why:
I still do not know why you call Camp Ore and Matchbox Ore epithermal and Goldfield Ores mesothermal. As a partner in the Mammoth Mine, I know that all ores on the Mammoth are epithermal, from bow to stern. Could you explain this discrepancy?
Glover seems to have done a "thorough enough" ore analysis. However, he did not show the fingerprints for the minerals found in key subjects. More power to him. This in itself obviously shows that the minerals are more important than the quartz.
Respectfully and thanks for your time,
Jesse
I almost feel the same about this, however, everyone into all that is Dutchman should be interested in where Dutchman ore came from.
Klondike,
If I understand you correctly, you are pointing out that the mineralization of the ore is more important than what degrees the quartz was deposited at; that by looking at the ore, with the naked eye, one can see if the ore is similar to Dutchman ores; that this simple technique is good enough. This is probably what all of us have used in the field..., and I agree with your prospecting targets, but still have some confusion as to how you explain why:
I still do not know why you call Camp Ore and Matchbox Ore epithermal and Goldfield Ores mesothermal. As a partner in the Mammoth Mine, I know that all ores on the Mammoth are epithermal, from bow to stern. Could you explain this discrepancy?
Glover seems to have done a "thorough enough" ore analysis. However, he did not show the fingerprints for the minerals found in key subjects. More power to him. This in itself obviously shows that the minerals are more important than the quartz.
Respectfully and thanks for your time,
Jesse
The gold
E.
See you soon. The deposit is very interesting.
You are right. Jim Bark said it well.
Take Care
Mr. Feldman
I had to smile when I saw your point regarding the deposits in Goldfield.
We can agree or disagree as to what the deposit is but we have a basis for communication. That really is what this is all about. Discussing deposits or ore samples in terms of quartz crystallization temperatures tells one little or nothing about the subject matter, but discussing the samples and deposits in terms of mineral suites, period of deposition, alteration, host association, texture, mineralogoy, allows one not only to better understand the subject matter but to have a foundation for prospecting efforts.
As far as the Mammoth Mine specifically I accept your point that the deposit is epithermal. In my father`s paper`s there was a assay report given to him by a dutchhunter that indicated those deposits were mesothermal. This perplexed me based on what I know about the area and the fact that these deposits if I remember correctly do occure in decomposing granite and appear to be formed at relatively low temperatures. My guess is between 100 and 150 C. Your response has helped me.
Dutchman ores are a whole different matter. First off the surviving samples are limited and do not scratch the surface in terms of what the Dutchman was involved in. This you can believe or not believe based on your understanding of the Superstitions.
Let`s just say a lot of gold was dug up in the vicinty of the Dutchman`s residence.
Camp Ore and Matchbox/Dutchman ore are epithermal based on the suite of minerals associated with the samples, ie, a high sulfur content, enargite, pyrite, quartz-alunite-gold, tellurides, etc., With their period of deposition being Tertiary. Both come from areas of igneous activity with large underlying sedimentary masses.
If so then to discuss these samples in terms of prospecting targets one would look for faults, fractures, and shear zones associated with volcanic activity, fumeroles, caldera complexes, etc.,
I did notice in my response to you I used the gold deposits of South Africa. Most of those deposits are really fossil placer deposits that are extremely old and have little or nothing to do with the Tertiary. The deposit I am thinking of has a very limited exposure and is not indicative of the Rand in general.
Based on my activities on the ground then knowing this there are certain areas in the Superstitions I would start looking if I was trying to find where the matchbook/dutchman ore came from. Also I would spend time I believe it is called the Apache Spring area. Also a few places that have for a lack of better words a strong Sulphur odor.
I know the dutchman spent a lot of time in the Roger`s Canyon area working a mine but that is a history for another time. It is something I should really leave alone.
E. is also right that we are yesterday`s news. It is time to bow out of here.
Good luck to you and if you ever come across a filthy little rock hound in the Superstitions with a Auburn War Eagle hat on just drop in a have a cup of coffee.
Klondike
See you soon. The deposit is very interesting.
You are right. Jim Bark said it well.
Take Care
Mr. Feldman
I had to smile when I saw your point regarding the deposits in Goldfield.
We can agree or disagree as to what the deposit is but we have a basis for communication. That really is what this is all about. Discussing deposits or ore samples in terms of quartz crystallization temperatures tells one little or nothing about the subject matter, but discussing the samples and deposits in terms of mineral suites, period of deposition, alteration, host association, texture, mineralogoy, allows one not only to better understand the subject matter but to have a foundation for prospecting efforts.
As far as the Mammoth Mine specifically I accept your point that the deposit is epithermal. In my father`s paper`s there was a assay report given to him by a dutchhunter that indicated those deposits were mesothermal. This perplexed me based on what I know about the area and the fact that these deposits if I remember correctly do occure in decomposing granite and appear to be formed at relatively low temperatures. My guess is between 100 and 150 C. Your response has helped me.
Dutchman ores are a whole different matter. First off the surviving samples are limited and do not scratch the surface in terms of what the Dutchman was involved in. This you can believe or not believe based on your understanding of the Superstitions.
Let`s just say a lot of gold was dug up in the vicinty of the Dutchman`s residence.
Camp Ore and Matchbox/Dutchman ore are epithermal based on the suite of minerals associated with the samples, ie, a high sulfur content, enargite, pyrite, quartz-alunite-gold, tellurides, etc., With their period of deposition being Tertiary. Both come from areas of igneous activity with large underlying sedimentary masses.
If so then to discuss these samples in terms of prospecting targets one would look for faults, fractures, and shear zones associated with volcanic activity, fumeroles, caldera complexes, etc.,
I did notice in my response to you I used the gold deposits of South Africa. Most of those deposits are really fossil placer deposits that are extremely old and have little or nothing to do with the Tertiary. The deposit I am thinking of has a very limited exposure and is not indicative of the Rand in general.
Based on my activities on the ground then knowing this there are certain areas in the Superstitions I would start looking if I was trying to find where the matchbook/dutchman ore came from. Also I would spend time I believe it is called the Apache Spring area. Also a few places that have for a lack of better words a strong Sulphur odor.
I know the dutchman spent a lot of time in the Roger`s Canyon area working a mine but that is a history for another time. It is something I should really leave alone.
E. is also right that we are yesterday`s news. It is time to bow out of here.
Good luck to you and if you ever come across a filthy little rock hound in the Superstitions with a Auburn War Eagle hat on just drop in a have a cup of coffee.
Klondike
-
Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Re: The Gold
Hello Everyone,
The following posts were made on another thread, "Calalus". These posts are the most important information that has ever been made public in regards to the Camp and Matchbox ores.
Going forward the prospector or student of geology will have a firm foundation for understanding these gold specimens and possible exploration targets in the Superstitions for the source of the gold found under the Dutchman`s bed.
For instance if the Matchbox Ore is the only ore that the Dutchman located in the Superstitions and the Camp Ore is from the same deposit, you would want to explore for a Epithermal deposit, with a significant Sulphur element and a unique suite of trace elements generally not found in Arizona deposits. My bet a Telluride combination. And the Pistol Canyon area is the first place to look.
Furthermore if you have located a deposit in the Superstitions that your believe the Matchbox Ore came from here for the first time you have a geologic model to benchmark against your discovery.
In these three post Mr. Johnson has taken the Geology of the LDM from the dark ages to a scientific basis that any serious student of Geology will have to admit is the only scientific effort ever presented on the subject.
Everyone should give Mr. Johnson a thanks. Because of his efforts nothing will ever be the same again.
Klondike
klondike,
Tom Glover in his book The Golden Dream Part 1, states on page 281, the Jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) and Superstition Mountains ores are Mesothermic. While classifying the Goldfield Arizona ores from the Mammoth, Black Queen, Bulldog and Wasp mines as being Endothermic.
This is a very confusing and misleading statement.
Endothermic is not a type of gold ore vein deposit, it is the process or reaction in which a system absorbes energy from it's surroundings in the form of heat.
Both Mesothermal and Epithermal as well as Hypothermal gold ore vein deposits are Endothermic. They are all Endothermic. They all were formed by reaction to absorbing energy from it's surroundings in the form of heat so how can a Mesothermic deposit be different from Endothermic ?
And one thing I really don't understand is how Mr. Glover determined some of the ores to be Mesothermic ? How did he arrive at that conclusion ? Given the SED testing he did and the detailed explanation of the tests, it is impossible to determine Mesothermic from Epithermal from Hypothermal.
I fully believe Mr. Glover found very distinct differences in the ores he tested but do not believe he came close to acurately classifying the types of deposits and used a very generic method for determining the formation of the different ore bodies.
Only one ore was tested that Mr. Glover believed could have come from the same deposit as the jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) and that was the ore Mr. Glover called, Camp ore.
On page 281 Mr. Glover writes: " The composition of these ores suggested that the Camp Ore could have come from the SAME SOURCE as the Jewelry Ore (Waltz's Ore).
The "SAME SOURCE".
In an independant analysis done seperate from Mr. Glover's ore analysis, the Camp Ore was found to be Epithermal in composition.
It should be noted the camp ore samples were the only ore samples Mr. Glover tested where he was given full permission to do any testing on that ore including any destructive testing he wished to do. All the other samples were either on loan or had the caviat they be returned or not destroyed in the testing.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Oroblanco,
A hand held lens to determine the size of grains in quartz is a rough and hardly "scientific" way to judge quartz type for anything other than a quick yes or no field test with about a 60-40 success rate at best, depending on how far apart on the scale the quartz crystals are. Quartz formed at 300 C and quartz formed at 250 C are almost impossible to tell the difference with a hand held lens, even in the hands of an expert. Anyone wanting a serious analysis would never accept a lens application unless the sample was such a clear cut example of one form or another. Even then, a serious analysis would demand a piston cylinder, pressure, heat analysis at the least.
If I truly wanted to know the type of formation I would never accept a hand held lens judgement I don't care how expert the man holding the lens or how many of them gave their opinions. Out of 100 experts you would have a 60-40 split every time at best.
Howard McCarthy clearly stated during the tests that, " without a destructive test of the quartz he could not be certain as to the type of the quartz."
That means even though he used a hand held lens he could not be certain and his judgement was based on his best guess. I can say for certain if he judged the Camp ore as Mesothermal, he missed with that guess, I cannot say for any of the others because I have never seen them or any tests done on them beyond Mr. Glovers tests. The independant test done on the camp ore included destructive testing of the minerals, gangue and quartz and positively identified the deposit it came from as Epithermal.
The only things Endothermic and Epithermal have in common is Endothermic describes the outside heat and pressure applied to the Epithermal system during it's formation.
The exact same thing Endothermic does to Mesothermal and Hypothermal deposits as the form.
There is no difference, the relationship of Endothermic to Epithermal and Mesothermal deposits are exactly the same. No difference.
The independant analysis of the Camp Ore was done just prior to Mr. Glover's testing and was done in Arizona. I don't believe the analysis is published anywhere in a book, there would be no reason. It was Mr. Glover who came to the owner of the ore and asked for samples and it was a private matter between the two. The owner was not interested in publishing a book or going public and Mr. Glover approached him, not the other way around. Mr. Glover did not see the other analysis before he did his own testing.
I don't know where this leaves the discussion but Mr. Glover made the statement his testing showed the Camp Ore was the only ore tested that could have came from the SAME SOURCE as the jewelry ore (Waltz ore). And Camp ore is definately an Epithermal deposit.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Klondike, B,
Yes, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone or change anyones minds about anything. I simply stated a fact in answer to some of your statements and questions.
I'm perfectly fine with anyone believing or not believing whatever they want.
Mr. Glover's ore analysis which appears in the 1999 version of his book, Golden Dream Part 1, is terribly misleading, confusing and in some instances just plain backward from what it appears he was trying to say.
He appears to use the term Endothermic when he really means Epithermal (possibly) and says the quartz in the Superstition ore samples are Mesothermal while the man who tested the ore ( Howard McCarthy) clearly stated he could not be certain what type of quartz it was without a chemical destructive test, a test which was not done. McCarthy does a best guess with a hand held field magnifying glass to try and judge the crystal size while it is nearly impossible for anyone to tell the difference between crystals that may have formed as close together as 50-75 degrees. Ask 100 geologists to determine this using a lens and you will get a 60-40 split at best. Hardly scientific or anything a serious person would hang their hat on or would ever use as "proof". No serious person would consider anything other than a pressure, heat, destructive test to determine quartz composition and deposit type.
You are correct when you say there is no ore analysis information whatsoever in the book, only Similar/Disimilar comparisons of inclusions, gangue and minerals. It was almost as if it was written purposely to confuse people who are actually interested in the different ores composition.
If Mr. Glover truly feels, as he stated on page 281 that the Camp ore was the only ore tested that could have come from the SAME SOURCE the jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) came from, then it follows the Camp Ore analysis ( the REAL analysis ) is extremely close or the same as the REAL Jewelry ore analysis.
Yes, the camp ore was a high sulfidation Epithermal deposit with some of the minerals you noted, one in particular that is a key matching combination of elements , a smoking gun, to both the Camp ore and Jewelry ore deposits. This key matching combination of elements and the relative proportins of these elements is a match between Camp and Jewelry ore and was not found in any of the other ores tested by Mr. Glover. In fact it is found in less than 3% of all gold bearing deposits known to have come from Arizona mines. This could explain the statements made by numerous people who saw Waltz's ore and how it looked like ore they had never seen from any other mine.
I think Mr. Glover did a great job with the ore testing and what he was allowed to do, the Camp ore being the only ore samples Mr. Glover had complete freedom to destroy in testing if he chose to. All the others were either on loan or with directions they specifically NOT be destroyed in the testing.
I was shown a copy of the SED-EDM printout Mr. Glover did on the Camp ore and it was very detailed and matched element for element the minerals found in the independant ore analysis done seperately. I never was able to see the Jewelry ore printout. So the confusion was not in what was tested, it came about in how the results were presented in the book.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
The following posts were made on another thread, "Calalus". These posts are the most important information that has ever been made public in regards to the Camp and Matchbox ores.
Going forward the prospector or student of geology will have a firm foundation for understanding these gold specimens and possible exploration targets in the Superstitions for the source of the gold found under the Dutchman`s bed.
For instance if the Matchbox Ore is the only ore that the Dutchman located in the Superstitions and the Camp Ore is from the same deposit, you would want to explore for a Epithermal deposit, with a significant Sulphur element and a unique suite of trace elements generally not found in Arizona deposits. My bet a Telluride combination. And the Pistol Canyon area is the first place to look.
Furthermore if you have located a deposit in the Superstitions that your believe the Matchbox Ore came from here for the first time you have a geologic model to benchmark against your discovery.
In these three post Mr. Johnson has taken the Geology of the LDM from the dark ages to a scientific basis that any serious student of Geology will have to admit is the only scientific effort ever presented on the subject.
Everyone should give Mr. Johnson a thanks. Because of his efforts nothing will ever be the same again.
Klondike
klondike,
Tom Glover in his book The Golden Dream Part 1, states on page 281, the Jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) and Superstition Mountains ores are Mesothermic. While classifying the Goldfield Arizona ores from the Mammoth, Black Queen, Bulldog and Wasp mines as being Endothermic.
This is a very confusing and misleading statement.
Endothermic is not a type of gold ore vein deposit, it is the process or reaction in which a system absorbes energy from it's surroundings in the form of heat.
Both Mesothermal and Epithermal as well as Hypothermal gold ore vein deposits are Endothermic. They are all Endothermic. They all were formed by reaction to absorbing energy from it's surroundings in the form of heat so how can a Mesothermic deposit be different from Endothermic ?
And one thing I really don't understand is how Mr. Glover determined some of the ores to be Mesothermic ? How did he arrive at that conclusion ? Given the SED testing he did and the detailed explanation of the tests, it is impossible to determine Mesothermic from Epithermal from Hypothermal.
I fully believe Mr. Glover found very distinct differences in the ores he tested but do not believe he came close to acurately classifying the types of deposits and used a very generic method for determining the formation of the different ore bodies.
Only one ore was tested that Mr. Glover believed could have come from the same deposit as the jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) and that was the ore Mr. Glover called, Camp ore.
On page 281 Mr. Glover writes: " The composition of these ores suggested that the Camp Ore could have come from the SAME SOURCE as the Jewelry Ore (Waltz's Ore).
The "SAME SOURCE".
In an independant analysis done seperate from Mr. Glover's ore analysis, the Camp Ore was found to be Epithermal in composition.
It should be noted the camp ore samples were the only ore samples Mr. Glover tested where he was given full permission to do any testing on that ore including any destructive testing he wished to do. All the other samples were either on loan or had the caviat they be returned or not destroyed in the testing.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Oroblanco,
A hand held lens to determine the size of grains in quartz is a rough and hardly "scientific" way to judge quartz type for anything other than a quick yes or no field test with about a 60-40 success rate at best, depending on how far apart on the scale the quartz crystals are. Quartz formed at 300 C and quartz formed at 250 C are almost impossible to tell the difference with a hand held lens, even in the hands of an expert. Anyone wanting a serious analysis would never accept a lens application unless the sample was such a clear cut example of one form or another. Even then, a serious analysis would demand a piston cylinder, pressure, heat analysis at the least.
If I truly wanted to know the type of formation I would never accept a hand held lens judgement I don't care how expert the man holding the lens or how many of them gave their opinions. Out of 100 experts you would have a 60-40 split every time at best.
Howard McCarthy clearly stated during the tests that, " without a destructive test of the quartz he could not be certain as to the type of the quartz."
That means even though he used a hand held lens he could not be certain and his judgement was based on his best guess. I can say for certain if he judged the Camp ore as Mesothermal, he missed with that guess, I cannot say for any of the others because I have never seen them or any tests done on them beyond Mr. Glovers tests. The independant test done on the camp ore included destructive testing of the minerals, gangue and quartz and positively identified the deposit it came from as Epithermal.
The only things Endothermic and Epithermal have in common is Endothermic describes the outside heat and pressure applied to the Epithermal system during it's formation.
The exact same thing Endothermic does to Mesothermal and Hypothermal deposits as the form.
There is no difference, the relationship of Endothermic to Epithermal and Mesothermal deposits are exactly the same. No difference.
The independant analysis of the Camp Ore was done just prior to Mr. Glover's testing and was done in Arizona. I don't believe the analysis is published anywhere in a book, there would be no reason. It was Mr. Glover who came to the owner of the ore and asked for samples and it was a private matter between the two. The owner was not interested in publishing a book or going public and Mr. Glover approached him, not the other way around. Mr. Glover did not see the other analysis before he did his own testing.
I don't know where this leaves the discussion but Mr. Glover made the statement his testing showed the Camp Ore was the only ore tested that could have came from the SAME SOURCE as the jewelry ore (Waltz ore). And Camp ore is definately an Epithermal deposit.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
Klondike, B,
Yes, I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone or change anyones minds about anything. I simply stated a fact in answer to some of your statements and questions.
I'm perfectly fine with anyone believing or not believing whatever they want.
Mr. Glover's ore analysis which appears in the 1999 version of his book, Golden Dream Part 1, is terribly misleading, confusing and in some instances just plain backward from what it appears he was trying to say.
He appears to use the term Endothermic when he really means Epithermal (possibly) and says the quartz in the Superstition ore samples are Mesothermal while the man who tested the ore ( Howard McCarthy) clearly stated he could not be certain what type of quartz it was without a chemical destructive test, a test which was not done. McCarthy does a best guess with a hand held field magnifying glass to try and judge the crystal size while it is nearly impossible for anyone to tell the difference between crystals that may have formed as close together as 50-75 degrees. Ask 100 geologists to determine this using a lens and you will get a 60-40 split at best. Hardly scientific or anything a serious person would hang their hat on or would ever use as "proof". No serious person would consider anything other than a pressure, heat, destructive test to determine quartz composition and deposit type.
You are correct when you say there is no ore analysis information whatsoever in the book, only Similar/Disimilar comparisons of inclusions, gangue and minerals. It was almost as if it was written purposely to confuse people who are actually interested in the different ores composition.
If Mr. Glover truly feels, as he stated on page 281 that the Camp ore was the only ore tested that could have come from the SAME SOURCE the jewelry ore (Waltz's ore) came from, then it follows the Camp Ore analysis ( the REAL analysis ) is extremely close or the same as the REAL Jewelry ore analysis.
Yes, the camp ore was a high sulfidation Epithermal deposit with some of the minerals you noted, one in particular that is a key matching combination of elements , a smoking gun, to both the Camp ore and Jewelry ore deposits. This key matching combination of elements and the relative proportins of these elements is a match between Camp and Jewelry ore and was not found in any of the other ores tested by Mr. Glover. In fact it is found in less than 3% of all gold bearing deposits known to have come from Arizona mines. This could explain the statements made by numerous people who saw Waltz's ore and how it looked like ore they had never seen from any other mine.
I think Mr. Glover did a great job with the ore testing and what he was allowed to do, the Camp ore being the only ore samples Mr. Glover had complete freedom to destroy in testing if he chose to. All the others were either on loan or with directions they specifically NOT be destroyed in the testing.
I was shown a copy of the SED-EDM printout Mr. Glover did on the Camp ore and it was very detailed and matched element for element the minerals found in the independant ore analysis done seperately. I never was able to see the Jewelry ore printout. So the confusion was not in what was tested, it came about in how the results were presented in the book.
Will Johnson
Apache Junction
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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Re: The Gold
Ben,
"For instance if the Matchbox Ore is the only ore that the Dutchman located in the Superstitions and the Camp Ore is from the same deposit, you would want to explore for a Epithermal deposit, with a significant Sulphur element and a unique suite of trace elements generally not found in Arizona deposits. My bet a Telluride combination. And the Pistol Canyon area is the first place to look."
What I find most interesting about your statement is the Colorado connection, and that I was told that Jesse Capen was tracked over into the Pistol Canyon area by an old friend of this Forum.
Actually telluride is a combination of tellurium, gold and silver. Gold and silver are not that uncommon in Arizona., and I believe tellurium is often a byproduct in the refining of copper.
As everyone knows, I don't know $#!t about rocks, so I could be in left field on this one.
Take care,
Joe
"For instance if the Matchbox Ore is the only ore that the Dutchman located in the Superstitions and the Camp Ore is from the same deposit, you would want to explore for a Epithermal deposit, with a significant Sulphur element and a unique suite of trace elements generally not found in Arizona deposits. My bet a Telluride combination. And the Pistol Canyon area is the first place to look."
What I find most interesting about your statement is the Colorado connection, and that I was told that Jesse Capen was tracked over into the Pistol Canyon area by an old friend of this Forum.
Actually telluride is a combination of tellurium, gold and silver. Gold and silver are not that uncommon in Arizona., and I believe tellurium is often a byproduct in the refining of copper.
As everyone knows, I don't know $#!t about rocks, so I could be in left field on this one.
Take care,
Joe
Re: The Gold
Telluride in AZ? I could only find mention of this in Cochise county, and one single mine in La Paz county. I don't see anything to suggest this would be likely to find in the Superstitions wilderness.
I do not buy the epithermal theory of Waltz's mine that some people keep repeating. The photos of specimens I have seen, and the analysis done by Dr Glover do not agree with this theory. It does make a difference in what sort of mine we will be looking for, and the likelihood that it would pinch out at a shallow depth, for many epithermal veins do commonly pinch out at relatively shallow depths while mesothermal types as well as hypothermal do not.
Pistol canyon is an interesting area I agree, however it has been searched fairly thoroughly by more than one Dutch hunter, it seems likely that if a rich mine were located there we would all know of it by now.
Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
I do not buy the epithermal theory of Waltz's mine that some people keep repeating. The photos of specimens I have seen, and the analysis done by Dr Glover do not agree with this theory. It does make a difference in what sort of mine we will be looking for, and the likelihood that it would pinch out at a shallow depth, for many epithermal veins do commonly pinch out at relatively shallow depths while mesothermal types as well as hypothermal do not.
Pistol canyon is an interesting area I agree, however it has been searched fairly thoroughly by more than one Dutch hunter, it seems likely that if a rich mine were located there we would all know of it by now.
Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Gold
I recall that discussion which took place awhile back and had thought of looking it up again when the subject came up in the other thread.
Since I'm with Joe on this one in that I really know little to nothing about geology or especially gold bearing ore formation, I have nothing to add to the discussion, but I'd like to find some VERY BASIC sources of information that can lead me down the path of learning more about the subject.
Any suggestions?
Since I'm with Joe on this one in that I really know little to nothing about geology or especially gold bearing ore formation, I have nothing to add to the discussion, but I'd like to find some VERY BASIC sources of information that can lead me down the path of learning more about the subject.
Any suggestions?
Re: The Gold
Try this, haven't checked to see if it still works but it did the last I tested it
http://mines.az.gov/DigitalLibrary/AZBM ... deGold.pdf
If I were going to recommend one book it would be the Handbook for Alaskan Prospectors
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Prospect ... 004&sr=8-1
I hope this helps, I did a quick search online and there are a multitude of online articles, some of which have rather misleading or even erroneous info so is a bit of a minefield.
Roy
http://mines.az.gov/DigitalLibrary/AZBM ... deGold.pdf
If I were going to recommend one book it would be the Handbook for Alaskan Prospectors
http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Prospect ... 004&sr=8-1
I hope this helps, I did a quick search online and there are a multitude of online articles, some of which have rather misleading or even erroneous info so is a bit of a minefield.
Roy
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
Re: The Gold
PS I have to respectfully disagree on the idea of someone not having much to contribute; everyone has something to add to the discussion and often have new ideas and insights.
Oroblanco
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
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- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Gold
Don't know why, but when we started talking about tellurides in the Superstitions, I immediately thought of this:
I believe all of the ingredients for telluride are found in Arizona. Of course, I could be wrong.
Joe
I believe all of the ingredients for telluride are found in Arizona. Of course, I could be wrong.
Joe
Re: The Gold
Interesting photo amigo, but may be a lime kiln. Any slag around or in it?Joe Ribaudo wrote:Don't know why, but when we started talking about tellurides in the Superstitions, I immediately thought of this:
I believe all of the ingredients for telluride are found in Arizona. Of course, I could be wrong.
Joe
Tellurides are found in AZ, just not in the Superstitions as far as I know, *see my last post, Cochise and LaPaz counties only as far as I can recall* none ever reported in the mines in the east end of the range nor Goldfield area. Possible yes, but gold tellurides are not that common as minerals go, so it would be surprising to see it in the Supers but that is my opinion only. I have no idea why Klondike suggested we ought to see it there? Perhaps in keeping with the whole epithermal theory as gold tellurides are generally epithermal, and not meso- or hypothermal?
Oroblanco
"We must find a way, or we will make one." --Hannibal Barca
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Joe Ribaudo
- Expert
- Posts: 5453
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Re: The Gold
Roy,
"Tellurides are found in AZ, just not in the Superstitions as far as I know...."
I may need a little education here, Amigo. I was under the impression we were talking about a telluride combination here. If that is so, I believe all of the ingredients required to create a telluride combination are present in the Superstitions.
Once you get past gold, silver and tellurium, I am unsure what else is required for telluride.
Please remember you are dealing with a rock idiot here, so be kind.
Take care,
Joe
"Tellurides are found in AZ, just not in the Superstitions as far as I know...."
I may need a little education here, Amigo. I was under the impression we were talking about a telluride combination here. If that is so, I believe all of the ingredients required to create a telluride combination are present in the Superstitions.
Once you get past gold, silver and tellurium, I am unsure what else is required for telluride.
Please remember you are dealing with a rock idiot here, so be kind.
Take care,
Joe