For anyone interested, I started an album named "WATER IN THE SUPERSTITIONS" in "Member Archive".
It is set up so that anyone can add their own pictures to the album.
My trips into the mountains were always in late March, usually the third week. There have been times when water was scarce, but it was always there to be found.
Most trips were one week in duration and except for one year when we camped in a saddle, water was fairly close.....sometimes within a hundred feet. Other times it was a bit of a hike, but doable.
It will be interesting to see other pictures.
Joe Ribaudo
WATER IN THE SUPERSTITIONS
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Joe Ribaudo
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NOWATA
What.....no one has a picture of water in the Superstitions? Am I the only one who went in there when the odds were best for finding running water?
Joe
Joe
I have a couple Joe, but my home computer isn't online right now 
I'll post them soon.
I'm sure there should be plenty of water pictures out there...
I'll post them soon.I'm sure there should be plenty of water pictures out there...
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
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Best Picture Award......
OK,
It looks like I get the "Best Picture Award" for "Water In The Superstitions".
Matter of fact, it looks like I get the only picture award.
This all started, as I recall, with some discussion of Waltz and water. My point in starting the album, and this topic, was to show that knowing when to go into the mountains was the first consideration.
If you leave the canyon, on the Stone Map Trail, and follow the wash up to the saddle that starts you down to the heart, just prior to getting to that saddle you will find a ravine running to the south. A short distance up that ravine you will find a very nice spring with the brush growing so profuse around it, that you will need a machete (sharp) to get to it.
You can hear the water for quite a distance.
Piper Spring used to have water most of the time. It was covered to keep the critters out.
Anyone here remember that?
Joe
It looks like I get the "Best Picture Award" for "Water In The Superstitions".
Matter of fact, it looks like I get the only picture award.
This all started, as I recall, with some discussion of Waltz and water. My point in starting the album, and this topic, was to show that knowing when to go into the mountains was the first consideration.
If you leave the canyon, on the Stone Map Trail, and follow the wash up to the saddle that starts you down to the heart, just prior to getting to that saddle you will find a ravine running to the south. A short distance up that ravine you will find a very nice spring with the brush growing so profuse around it, that you will need a machete (sharp) to get to it.
You can hear the water for quite a distance.
Piper Spring used to have water most of the time. It was covered to keep the critters out.
Anyone here remember that?Joe
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Joe Ribaudo
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Claims
Forgot to mention that there are claim on both sides of that trail. The main one is to the south above the saddle.
Joe Ribaudo
Joe Ribaudo
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critter
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The Age Factor
And of course all of these places are easily to reached from downtown Phoenix in a few days by an elderly man on foot, right?
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Joe Ribaudo
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Depends
Depends on the elderly man. And who says he was on foot?
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critter
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Realist vs. Revisionist
Well, I've always worked under the premise that it is better to find a location that fits the legends rather than fitting the legends to a particular location. In other words, if you find the correct location, then everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, should make sense without revision or amendment. In the legends, Waltz walked, and anyone who says otherwise is on the wrong trail.
Jake Walked
When Jake was a younger man, he would ride his horse, but by the time he started working the mine he preferred to walk alongside his mules, which carried his supplies, etc.
This is the easy stuff, Joe.
It apears to me that Critter has done his homework correctly...
unlike some folks.
Lazarus
B. Thomas Cooper
This is the easy stuff, Joe.
It apears to me that Critter has done his homework correctly...
unlike some folks.
Lazarus
B. Thomas Cooper
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Joe Ribaudo
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OK
Lazarus,
Seems like a reasonable assumption to me.
Joe
Seems like a reasonable assumption to me.
Joe
Water
Joe,
Your reply was impressively diplomatic, equal parts respect and humility.
I tip my dusty old hat to you, big guy.
On the subject of water, there is certainly less of it out there now than twenty years ago. As I'm sure you've noticed I have rather unique hiking habits. It is not unusual for me to hike out there with no other intent than to stash water for later use. Camping near a natural water source always runs the risk of an encounter with nervous wildlife, which I don't find necessary.
Lazarus
Destination Arizona
National Newswire
blogment
Your reply was impressively diplomatic, equal parts respect and humility.
I tip my dusty old hat to you, big guy.
On the subject of water, there is certainly less of it out there now than twenty years ago. As I'm sure you've noticed I have rather unique hiking habits. It is not unusual for me to hike out there with no other intent than to stash water for later use. Camping near a natural water source always runs the risk of an encounter with nervous wildlife, which I don't find necessary.
Lazarus
Destination Arizona
National Newswire
blogment
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Joe Ribaudo
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Old Man Riding
Lazarus,
I don't know that it is a correct assumption.....but it seems reasonable.
It would seem that Waltz still rode, if there was any distance involved, as late as 1890.
"Such, then, was the immediate background to the day in late November, 1890, when for the first time Jacob Waltz took the center of the stage in the continuing drama of the Lost Dutchman.
For him, that day began like all the other days on which he had delivered eggs to Helena Thomas, and he had no idea that he was to take the stellar role in a drama of any sort. He filled a tin bucket with eggs, locked the door of his house, and turned to his saddled burro, a long-legged beast of good gait, gentle eye and action, and much intelligence. Somewhat more than a mile of dirt road lay between Waltz and the bakery.
He was rather a stocky figure astride the burro......." Pages 91-92 THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE by, Simms Ely
On page 93, he writes: "Send Reiney for me tonight, after you close up. You know I don't see well at night, and I want him to walk beside me and the burro........When Reiney arrived at his house that evening, Waltz was waiting beside his saddled burro, a sack in his hand. Reiney held the sack while Waltz mounted and then handed it up to him...."
Seems like a pretty detailed story of Waltz still riding in 1890. Don't know why Ely would make up the details about the burro, but it's possible.
What is the source for Critter's, and your conclusion that Waltz only rode when he was "younger"?
Joe
I don't know that it is a correct assumption.....but it seems reasonable.
It would seem that Waltz still rode, if there was any distance involved, as late as 1890.
"Such, then, was the immediate background to the day in late November, 1890, when for the first time Jacob Waltz took the center of the stage in the continuing drama of the Lost Dutchman.
For him, that day began like all the other days on which he had delivered eggs to Helena Thomas, and he had no idea that he was to take the stellar role in a drama of any sort. He filled a tin bucket with eggs, locked the door of his house, and turned to his saddled burro, a long-legged beast of good gait, gentle eye and action, and much intelligence. Somewhat more than a mile of dirt road lay between Waltz and the bakery.
He was rather a stocky figure astride the burro......." Pages 91-92 THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE by, Simms Ely
On page 93, he writes: "Send Reiney for me tonight, after you close up. You know I don't see well at night, and I want him to walk beside me and the burro........When Reiney arrived at his house that evening, Waltz was waiting beside his saddled burro, a sack in his hand. Reiney held the sack while Waltz mounted and then handed it up to him...."
Seems like a pretty detailed story of Waltz still riding in 1890. Don't know why Ely would make up the details about the burro, but it's possible.
What is the source for Critter's, and your conclusion that Waltz only rode when he was "younger"?
Joe
He walked
Good reply,
But...
Send Reiney for me tonight, after you close up. You know I don't see well at night, and I want him to walk beside me and the burro........When Reiney arrived at his house that evening, Waltz was waiting beside his saddled burro, a sack in his hand. Reiney held the sack while Waltz mounted and then handed it up to him...."
So if this was true, and it was, what did Jake do when he was alone, with no-one to help?
He walked.
But...
Send Reiney for me tonight, after you close up. You know I don't see well at night, and I want him to walk beside me and the burro........When Reiney arrived at his house that evening, Waltz was waiting beside his saddled burro, a sack in his hand. Reiney held the sack while Waltz mounted and then handed it up to him...."
So if this was true, and it was, what did Jake do when he was alone, with no-one to help?
He walked.
I think what matters here is where was Waltz going? It is doubtful that he was even leaving town much in those last few years. In fact it was missing his routine stops that worried Julia and saved his life. That account in itself shows how well known and thought of Waltz was. After his death everyone was involved in his rescue somehow, but at the time only a few people thought enough to check on him.
The suspect stories are of him leading his 1 or 2 burros down the street.
The 1870 census has Waltz with a Mule and a Horse. Before then he most likely walked leading his burros. Most of the stories concerning Waltz's daily habits seem to come from the mid eighties and later. If he walked or rode it was just between his adobe and town.
I doubt he busted broncos, but he had to have been experienced with horses in his travels. His age,health and good fortune lead to his acquiring his own horse in the 1870s.
The suspect stories are of him leading his 1 or 2 burros down the street.
The 1870 census has Waltz with a Mule and a Horse. Before then he most likely walked leading his burros. Most of the stories concerning Waltz's daily habits seem to come from the mid eighties and later. If he walked or rode it was just between his adobe and town.
I doubt he busted broncos, but he had to have been experienced with horses in his travels. His age,health and good fortune lead to his acquiring his own horse in the 1870s.
Horseback
I tend to believe Waltz was a very experienced rider. However, by the time
he began working the mine, he was unable to see well, and not quite as agile.
One horse and one mule sounds like a real good plan...
one for riding, and one for supplies.
Until old age sets in.
I think we may be arriving at a reasonable explanation.
Laz
he began working the mine, he was unable to see well, and not quite as agile.
One horse and one mule sounds like a real good plan...
one for riding, and one for supplies.
Until old age sets in.
I think we may be arriving at a reasonable explanation.
Laz
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Joe Ribaudo
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What Did He Do????
Lazarus,
"So if this was true, and it was, what did Jake do when he was alone, with no-one to help?"
Well Sir, I must assume he did not try to saddle-up with a sack of gold in his hands. If small enough, he would probably just tie it to the saddle horn.....put it in saddlebags or if to large for that....pack in on his pack annimals.
He did not need Rhiney to saddle his burro or help him into the saddle. He could not see well in the dark. In the final analysis.....Waltz was still able to mount his burro, and ride, in 1890.
Joe
"So if this was true, and it was, what did Jake do when he was alone, with no-one to help?"
Well Sir, I must assume he did not try to saddle-up with a sack of gold in his hands. If small enough, he would probably just tie it to the saddle horn.....put it in saddlebags or if to large for that....pack in on his pack annimals.
He did not need Rhiney to saddle his burro or help him into the saddle. He could not see well in the dark. In the final analysis.....Waltz was still able to mount his burro, and ride, in 1890.
Joe
Re: He walked
Well not necessiarily, like many people who climb onto a horse by themselves, he probably secured the bags...So if this was true, and it was, what did Jake do when he was alone, with no-one to help?
He walked.
Just noticed Joe answered it
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Walked
Oh, I agree...
it seems obvious he was capable of lifting himself into the saddle, but think about Joe...
you are far younger, and in good condition, but because of your back, you can't ride in from the trailhead.
I am a very experienced rider, I have countless of hours of riding behind me, and counltess more within the interior of the range.
And some days I wonder if I can lift myself into the saddle.
Laz
it seems obvious he was capable of lifting himself into the saddle, but think about Joe...
you are far younger, and in good condition, but because of your back, you can't ride in from the trailhead.
I am a very experienced rider, I have countless of hours of riding behind me, and counltess more within the interior of the range.
And some days I wonder if I can lift myself into the saddle.
Laz
Hopefully this is relevant and close to the subject matter.
Waltz made it a habit of stopping off to discuss the news with his neighbors. A good sign that he could not read english well if at all and/or his vision was shot. He seemed to base much on oral tradition. While he did have a hand in drawing the sketches for Rhiney, he did not write out the directions. Another sign of illiteracy in either German or English. There is a case to be made that men would take great pride in their signature if nothing else. Jacob Waltz is the same in any language. I have noted that a dozen Jacob Waltz's signed their name in a very similar manner. In a few cases where they signed as X, the person who filled out the document signed the name along the same variation.
It is said in one account Waltz left each fall, but came home empty handed. It is a curious account. If Waltz was making these regular trips for 20 odd years, even with a few bags of ore each trip, he would have been sitting on Fort Knox when he died. Why visit the cache and/or mine regularly? Good chance someone will follow you in eventually. So on that note, where was he riding if he was leaving town ?
Waltz made it a habit of stopping off to discuss the news with his neighbors. A good sign that he could not read english well if at all and/or his vision was shot. He seemed to base much on oral tradition. While he did have a hand in drawing the sketches for Rhiney, he did not write out the directions. Another sign of illiteracy in either German or English. There is a case to be made that men would take great pride in their signature if nothing else. Jacob Waltz is the same in any language. I have noted that a dozen Jacob Waltz's signed their name in a very similar manner. In a few cases where they signed as X, the person who filled out the document signed the name along the same variation.
It is said in one account Waltz left each fall, but came home empty handed. It is a curious account. If Waltz was making these regular trips for 20 odd years, even with a few bags of ore each trip, he would have been sitting on Fort Knox when he died. Why visit the cache and/or mine regularly? Good chance someone will follow you in eventually. So on that note, where was he riding if he was leaving town ?
Walked
I doubt Jake was concerned about wealth, but I also doubt he would be stupid enough to be spotted dragging stuff home.
I think the magic was in his approach. That's what has made this whole story so special. Not so much the mine itself, but how Jake dealt with the situation.
Laz
I think the magic was in his approach. That's what has made this whole story so special. Not so much the mine itself, but how Jake dealt with the situation.
Laz
Maybe he was moving things around, instead of bringing things home. He could have went out and worked the mine, moving ore to the cache's, or maybe he stored the ore somewhere else, like somewhere in Globe or Florence...So on that note, where was he riding if he was leaving town ?
Maybe he had friends,
wait for it....
outside of Phoenix! *GASP*
Or maybe he was making gold bars to stash in caves near Weavers Needle
or maybe he was just traveling the country side, enjoying the view
People take vacations, it's entirely possible.Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Joe Ribaudo
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Zen,
"I have noted that a dozen Jacob Waltz's signed their name in a very similar manner."
Actually, that is a sign that he was educated. Handwritting was taught is a "similar manner" by teachers.
Waltz was intelligent and I have little doubt he was able to read and write....English and German.
Just an opinion, so I could be completely wrong.
Joe
"I have noted that a dozen Jacob Waltz's signed their name in a very similar manner."
Actually, that is a sign that he was educated. Handwritting was taught is a "similar manner" by teachers.
Waltz was intelligent and I have little doubt he was able to read and write....English and German.
Just an opinion, so I could be completely wrong.
Joe
I think it is wrong to think of the ability to read and write along with intelligence. There is nothing one way or the other that dictates Waltz's grammar skills. I think it is wrong to set the basis of his grammar skills on the signature alone. Every other document I have seen with Waltz's signature is written out in someone elses hand. Including the affidavits.
All of the passed down accounts of Waltz are suspect in my opnion. Only those of Holmes and Petrasch seem to be if not honest, then straightforward. They were not looking for attention, but the LDM. Where they cross paths is interesting if for nothing else, we know they didn't sit around and compare notes.
Why did Waltz give Rhiney and Julia the clues in German ? It was the second language to each of them, but Waltz's first language. I will always question the relevance of this concerning the information attributed to Waltz. Even those few we know for a fact he did have relations with spoke German.
All of the passed down accounts of Waltz are suspect in my opnion. Only those of Holmes and Petrasch seem to be if not honest, then straightforward. They were not looking for attention, but the LDM. Where they cross paths is interesting if for nothing else, we know they didn't sit around and compare notes.
Why did Waltz give Rhiney and Julia the clues in German ? It was the second language to each of them, but Waltz's first language. I will always question the relevance of this concerning the information attributed to Waltz. Even those few we know for a fact he did have relations with spoke German.