Bob Corbin - The FBI - The Stone Maps

[djui5]

Oroblanco is a good guy, just for the record

[Mike McChesney]

I have to agree with Randy here, that Oroblanco is a good guy! MISGUIDED, but good nonetheless!

I would like to see ANY evidence of Father Polzer claiming a gold mine. I know someone who knew him, that lives in Northern Mexico, and I have NEVER heard of Polzer with a mine. He wasn't just a good SJ, he was also one of the preeminent historians in the SouthWest. Very few people knew more about that subject than him.

That said, I think Father Pozer worked hard to disprove Jesuit Mining stories, and tried (most likely intentionally) to hide the truth about Jesuit Mining.

No douchebag Bill Riley (real name), I don't think you were thrown off the other forum. I never asked for that. It's just that they do a better job of moderating kooks like you there! You called me "MIKEY-KIKEY?" Why would you call me by a Jewish Slur? I was Baptised Episcopalian. I guess that just shows (once again) your stupidity.

What unfinished business would that be? I have already proved you to be a liar and nutjob (or would you prefer fruitcake). Why would anybody waste their time meeting you on the Boxing Forum (or anywhere else for that matter)? See, some of us are here to discuss matters relating to Treasure Hunting, not whining about petty squabbles, and showing which one of us is more ignorant (you win hands down).

Once again, You're EVERYWHERE, and NOWHERE, but a nutbag ANYWHERE you go!

Best,

Mike

[Mike McChesney]

Let me clarify one of my statements in my last post:

I don't know for certain whether or not you were banned from TreasureNet. If so, I'm sure they only banned BlackBeartd. I know you have many aliases. I don't know if they were banned as well.

I never asked for you to be banned. All I asked for was Jeff to delete the posts not pertaining to the Stone Maps.

If I had called for banning you, I would have done it publicly, and under my own name. I'm not a sneaking lunatic, like you. I prefer to do my business out in the open, and above board. That way, everybody knows where I stand, and people can take me at my word when I give it. I don't think anybody who knows you would believe it if you said the sun was shining, if the curtains were closed!

After Jeff deleted those posts, I deleted my own post which had nothing to do with the subject, but was a reply to your rantings.

Best,

Mike

[Oroblanco]

Thanks for the kind words Randy and Mike - I seem to have missed the personal attack. Not sure just what I posted that seems to have set the fellow off. Perhaps my post on the horse-head photos? All I said there was that it looked like a natural formation to me, which certainly doesn't PROVE that it is natural!

Something I posted on another forum but not here is that of the stones, I suspect that the Heart stone might be genuine and un-related to the rest. No way that can be proven, just a suspicion. If this idea were true, perhaps the others might have been made to 'fit' with the Heart stone?

I now suspect the hand of Barry Storm (real name John T. Clymenson or possibly John Griffith Climenson) in the stones even more, having found out that Storm falsified stone carvings in the Superstitions and never admitted to it. If he were the creator, it is possible that he never learned they had been found before he passed away. Storm added the "ORO" to two ancient Amerindian petroglyphs, and was seen doing it - so would readily be able to make up the stone maps and had both opportunity and motive. Reavis has also been proposed as a possible maker of the stones, and he DID make up fake stone inscriptions to bolster his land fraud case - however it seems logical that he would have brought the stones forward to help his court case if he had made them.

Now if my posts are making Bill Riley (the multiple identity poster) angry because of the stand, being skeptical that is, then he should be happy because it means that many less people will be competing with him in hunting the treasure(s) they are thought to lead to. I have also heard that this is the real reason for my own skepticism, that I want no one to believe in them so that I can 'have' the treasure to myself, however I will never find what treasure(s) may or may not be associated to them because I do not plan to try using them in the field as maps. So BB, WW, Jan, RK or whatever ID you are using today Bill, if you wish to make a personal attack on me, my email address is available here (no secret so you can say whatever you wish) or if you would rather not read my posts just ignore me. Or is it that you want a LOT more people up there searching around, that might find the treasure or lost mine before you? Don't expect to see me following up the stone maps though, even if you do find me in the Superstitions it won't be in the area the maps seem to fit.

Oroblanco

[djui5]

Thanks for the kind words Randy and Mike - I seem to have missed the personal attack.

Wasn't really one, but I wanted to make sure you didn't get caught up in the mud slinging over here. It's pretty deep....
Someone mentioned your name, but it was deleted....



The stone maps are real

[Oroblanco]

Hi Randy - only heard about it, didn't read the post before it was removed.

Okay for the sake of argument, lets say the stone maps are genuine. You have already found several of the sites they seem to lead to - so who made them, and what are they really for? Why the date or number 1847?

Roy ~ Oroblanco

[djui5]

The Spanish made them...so they could find their way. Couldn't use them anymore, so they tossed them aside on the way back to Mexico as they were heavy. Not sure why they left them where they did...that's the money question I guess.

I think 1847, and everything under the heart, is a bunch of BS. I posted what I believe it might lead to according to teamfvr's calculations, but personally, I really think they are there to throw people off...feel the same about a lot of stuff on the maps.

I really like Black Top Mesa Found things there I haven't seen anyone ever talk about, or post photos of. Found the same thing somewhere else also...well in a few places actually.

Distractions are mans best friend.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Roy and Randy,

As I have said many times, the Stone Maps are real.....meaning that they are an accurate map of a specific area of the Superstition Mountains. From the day I figured out where that area is, I have told every person that went into the mountains with me that they could be a hoax. I have said the same thing to many others.

A number of people have hinted that those who turn against the legends do so because the found no treasure. That is not the case with me.

For many years, I believed in "Jesuit Treasure". Historical research eventually convinced me there was no such thing, and that the Jesuits did not engage in mining here.

Research into the Stone Maps and the Cave Of Gold Bars eventually led me to a connecting web which seemed to point the finger of suspicion (for a hoax) at a number of well know figures surrounding the stories of the Superstition Mountains.

Searching Black Top is a time honored pastime for "Dutch Hunters". I doubt you can set your foot down anywhere on that mountain, and consider the dirt under your boot virgin soil.

I could, of course, be wrong.

Joe Ribaudo

[Joe Ribaudo]

Wow! Now I see what happened to the First Amendment Forum....Same thing as the rest of the Forums. We can no longer edit or deleat our posts. Just have to live with what you write, or post a correction. Someone is taking control. GOOD!

Randy,

A good thing to be aware of as you travel the Superstitions looking for "evidence", is that there are a few people who like to
"create evidence", for laughs. One of the reasons you may be finding some things that have never been publicized is because the makers did not want to be the finders.

Build it, leave it, and laugh like hell when someone else finds it. This little habit is well known in the Dutch Hunting Community. Those who played (and play) this game are also well known.

Once you find out who those folks were, and are, the Stone Maps come into the picture.

"You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass." Hamlet
(emphasis in bold by Joe)

Joe Ribaudo

[Mike McChesney]

Joe,

You are FAR from wrong about BlackTop Mesa! Even back in 1974, whan Robert E. Lee made his last video journey into the Superstitions, he even states that almost the whole of BlackTop Mesa is covered by mining claims. That was 34 years ago!

Oro,

The mention of you on this forum was not anything bad. The forum you are talking about was on TNet. It was made by CUMiner. I got a reply in, but Jeff went in and deleted both the post, and my reply. I sent a copy of the post to Beth earlier. My reply was basically, "Since you have only been here a short time, you don't know Roy. He is a good guy. MISGUIDED, BUT A GOOD GUY NONETHELESS!"

It was just that your name was included with something not so good, and Randy and I wanted to make sure the moderators, and other members knew you weren't on the "Dark Side!"

Best,

Mike

[djui5]

Randy,

A good thing to be aware of as you travel the Superstitions looking for "evidence", is that there are a few people who like to
"create evidence", for laughs. One of the reasons you may be finding some things that have never been publicized is because the makers did not want to be the finders.

Joe Ribaudo

Why yes, yes of course

[zentull]

Have to agree with Joe on Black Top being pretty well covered.......


There will come a time when the separation becomes less distinct between what is a clue and what was left to mislead. That will continue to happen and to lead people astray.

One interesting discussion at the rendevous was about the changes that have happened. I can only imagine what changed or was manipulated before I was there.

Only a matter of time before someone rediscovers something that meant little, but it will excite a whole new breed of Dutch Hunters

[Mike McChesney]

OK, so here's the latest on the Professor Dana Story,

The Archive secretary for the University of Redlands finally got ahold of Stephen Dana's widow (Jane Dana). Asked if she knew anything about the stones. She said she didn't recall, but would be more than happy to correspond with me. Said her daughters (all six of them) will be home for Thanksgiving, and she would ask them. She would also go through her late husband's papers, to see if there was anything there.

Slowly but surely.

Best,

Mike

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

Seems like the perfect opportunity to do some betting.

I would bet that there are no notes or reports. I would also be willing to bet that if there are notes or a report, they would not support the authenticity of the Stone Maps.

Seems like a no brainer, that if the opposite is true, the information would be all over the place. If they were trying to keep the results a secret, so as to lessen the interest in the maps, why all the stories (Life) and why release the name of the Professor who did the testing?

Anyone ready to place their bets? How about you, Azmula? Considering the years of research you have done, the miles you have traveled, it seems very likely that you have already made this connection and know if the tests were actually done and what the report says.

I mention Azmula, because he has been looking in on the site a lot lately.
Since Mike is close to exposing the information publicly, there would seem to be no value in saving it for his book.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

If they were trying to keep the results a secret, so as to lessen the interest in the maps, why all the stories (Life) and why release the name of the Professor who did the testing?

Joe Ribaudo

I believe this was 3 years after the fact. There is a post about it somewhere...

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

Three or thirty......Same question.

Joe

[djui5]

Well I believe it was because they didn't care to keep them a secret anymore. Crap...now I can't remember what said about it in the post...


I'll go find it later.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

I probably worded that wrong. What is telling, for me, is the silence that has surrounded the results of any scientific testing that might have been done. If the results were a postive for the authenticity of the maps, it does not seem likely that the news could have been buried this long. Once the museum had possession of the maps, such an official verification from the scientific community would have been worth its weight in gold.......so to speak.

Joe Ribaudo

[djui5]

Joe,
I agree! Always wondered the same thing myself

[Mike McChesney]

Hey Guys,

Jane Dana said that nobody has ever asked her about the stone maps.

My personal belief is that most people are content to just retell the stories, without first checking the facts. HELL! That could plain ruin a good story!

I wouldn't take that bet Joe! I don't have a horse in that race, so I don't care one way or the other.

BUT............................................

See, Like I have stated many times before; Actions speak louder than words! You have to look at how the possessors of the stone maps treated them when they had possession of them!

Travis Tunlinson was the first recorded possessor. Did he try and sell them? NOPE! Did he try and get investors? NOPE! What he DID do was keep them an absolute secret for all the years he owned them. He DID make MANY trips into the Superstitions (all the way from Oregon). When his health began failing, he gave them to his brother Robert.

When Robert possessed them, did he try and sell them? NOPE! He was living on a very small fixed pension (in Oregon). What did he do with them? He kept them in a box under the bed in his apartment. He sat at the Camelot Bar every day telling anyone who would listen, that he was going to find the Lost Dutchman Mine one day. When he told his landlord (Gene Davis), the man was interested in becoming a partner. Did he treat Davis like a man who thought/knew he had fake treasure maps? NOPE! He went with Davis into the Supers about four times trying to find where they led. When his health started failing, did he try and sell them? NOPE! He gave them back to his brother Travis, who was still not well.

Travis was sick, and couldn't go back to the Supers any more. This means that between Travis, and his brother Robert, they kept the stone maps an almost complete secret from 1949 until 1961! Sound like they thought the maps were fakes? I don't think so.

Robert died first, then Travis passed soon after in 1961. Travis' widow, Alleen, sold them to an old family friend (Clarence O. Mitchell) for $1200. Would you sell something to an old family friend for a good deal of money that you knew to be fake? I wouldn't!

Mitchell had an LLC named MOEL Inc (I think most everybody knows this). Did Mitchell try and sell the stones, or bilk money out of anybody? NOPE! MOEL kept the stones a secret for about three years. During that time, he supposedly had the stones tested (and we know all about that). The stone maps stayed a secret until the Life Magazine article of 12 June 1964.

We know what happened after that..

Best,

Mike

[djui5]

Well, the fact that they never talked about the stones publicly until after their deaths seals the deal for me. Why would you create something, then "search" it until you die, never telling anyone about it outside immediate family and friends? You wouldn't.

Like I said, the maps are real

[Joe Ribaudo]

Randy,

You make it, you bury it, someone finds it.....you laugh your ass off.

"Well, the fact that they never talked about the stones publicly until after their deaths...."

They told many people about the Stone Maps. Don't know where you got that idea but it's not true.

Read the chapter on Chuck Aylor in "Superstition Mountain....A Ride Through Time". See if you can find a connection in there with the Stone Maps.

Joe Ribaudo

[Mike McChesney]

Come on Joe,

They didn't exactly tell a bunch of people about them.

When he "FOUND" them, the first place he went (after the gas station) was to Charlie Miller's house in Apache Junction. That's where he cleaned them off.

Charlie Miller himself told Don Shade and Al Reser about Tumlinson finding the stones. After that, I don't believe Tumlinson needed to say a word.

What I meant by keeping them a secret, was that he didn't get the story in publication , nor did he try and sell them. Think about it Joe! If Tumlinson had anything at all to do with faking the stone maps (and he almost certainly would have), at one time or another, he would have either tried to sell them, or make them publicly known (in a tteasure magazine, or newspaper article). NEVER HAPPENED!

REMEMBER WHAT I HAVE SAID A MILLION TIMES! ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS! Quit nitpicking at all the little crap. Look at the big picture! Look what EVERY possessor of the stones has done with them prior to 1964. Not one of the possessors has thought them to be fakes (with the possible exception of the Museum).

RANDY,

Don't be too quick to say that's good enough to say they are authentic. It looks like I have done more actual research on them than many people who have used them in books in the last few months.

Right now, I am leaning hard towards them being authentic, but I also know that it is entirely possible that I will hear from Jane Dana that her late husband never did any tests on them. If that does happen, I will be leaning the opposite way! The one thing that has me thinking them authentic, is the fact a Professor Stephen Dana tested the stones, and concluded the engravings were "at least" 100 years old. If that never happened, my opinions will change drastically.

Best,

Mike

[djui5]

RANDY,

Don't be too quick to say that's good enough to say they are authentic. It looks like I have done more actual research on them than many people who have used them in books in the last few months.

Best,

Mike

Well maybe I should have stated it as I am absolutely positive the Tumlinsons didn't create the maps.

Either way, test or no test, I believe they are real maps.

[Joe Ribaudo]

Mike,

I have never said that any of those people made the maps, or that they knew the maps were fakes. It would seem obvious that they believed in their authenticity.

You are making direct quotes out of Dr. Glover's book. You should give him credit. On the other hand, please do not give me credit for saying things I never said.

The Tumlinson's told quite a few people about the Stone Maps, but did not advertise them nationally.

You should both read page 26 of Tom Kollenborn's book. If that does not make you suspect the author of the Stone Maps, you should probably just accept the overall story as it has been written, and quit wasting your time trying to trace down evidence.

A number of folks have said they sold Travis the Stone Maps. Seems like
another possibility.

Here is something you should keep in mind: Many prospectors have found things, all over the world, that convinced them they are close to finding an old mine or a treasure. They search, sometimes for years, without finding that elusive "Pot O' Gold".

Some grow frustrated with their failure to locate the dream and try to enlist others to help in the search. False evidence and stories make fine carrots to dangle in front of other prospectors.

Getting others to donate their time, and in some cases a great deal of their money, sometimes requires a stone horese/dragon head or other natural/created artifact.

In the long run, the Bill Riley's of the world are always looking for ways to "turn" a buck. What could be better than turning your hobby into a "cash cow"?

The Tumlinson's having the Stone Maps was common knowledge in Apache Junction. It would seem that the same held true for back home.

Joe Ribaudo