Bob Corbin - The FBI - The Stone Maps

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Ronnie Kelso
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

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rochha
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" Your pathetic "

Post by rochha »

Hey shit for brains,

The depth of your lies is amazing to say the least! You have taken everything I have told you about my involvement in that project ( which had nothing to do with the stone maps ) and have twisted and turned everything around for your own personal entertainment because I have exposed you for using other alias's. If you want that to stop, stop using alias's. Why dont you just use your own name Bill Riley. Stop treating us all like idiots here, and quit turning this forum into your own personal mental playground. Ever since your egotistical ass arrived on the scene here you have driven this forum in the toilet with your continual posting under numerous alias's for your own egotistical gain.

You say you want to stop this, the only way that is going to happen is if you quit playing games.

Like I said before, I will let my conduct speak for myself here and you can let yours speak for you.

Rochha

By the way..........If your insinuating your going to " stomp " me, you better make sure all your health care premiums are paid because you'll need them.
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Post by buscar »

The LDM Discussion Forum is filled with, abusiveness, hatefulness, threats, harassment, verbal assaults, and the like. Posts that are construed as such should not permitted, and deleted and made available to the proper authorities.

It is evident when participating in an LDM conversation, I never assume that all people are who they say they are, know what they say they know, or are affiliated with whom they say they are affiliated.

If I feel a post is too far off-the-wall to merit consideration, I simply, don’t respond to what somebody says.

It’s time to show a balance of contemplation of how to act like human beings!!!

buscar :)
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Cockroaches

Post by Heidi II »

Heidi like funny story about cockroaches.

Sad so many out there.

Is Mr. Rocha the evil cocka rocha?

No One find LDM with all the bugs around.

Randy will see things he can not even dream of.

Time to go shopping need lots of bug spray.

Bad, Bad Bugs


Heidi
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Post by rochha »

Like I said........Your own personal mental playground!

" The rest of you ".........means the rest of your alias's!

Why dont we hear from Jan anymore? Oh..........that's right you killed her off for some reason.

rochha
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Out of hiding...

Post by Oroblanco »

Greetings,
I decided to quit lurking and be 'visible' here. Quite a discussion, started out very interesting but did see some hostility break out and the discussion of the stones stopped. I hope the 'war' can be ended on friendly terms, as this has been a very interesting subject.

These Peralta stones are quite a thing, sure to divide up interested parties into the believers and dis-believers. So, are they real, or frauds?

Roy ~ Oroblanco
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Post by djui5 »

Welcome Roy!!!
Randy Wright
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"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
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welcome

Post by Oroblanco »

Thanks buddy! So what is your view of these stones? It seems an opinion can swing back and forth as to whether these are real or fakes as each new bit of info comes out. It is not easy to sit on a fence either! Experts have looked at the stones and came up with polar opposite opinions, so we mere mortals are really at the mercy of the evidence, or lack of it.

I have seen the opinions of Corbin and Kollenborn, wonder what Ron Feldman thinks of the stones? Anyone know?

Roy ~ Oroblanco
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Post by djui5 »

Good one, I don't think I've ever heard or read Feldmans take on the stones. Not sure he has an interest either, but could be wrong.

I believe the stones are real, and lead to something. Figuring them out is the hard part. I believe the stones we see have been altered heavily by someone...
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ

"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
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Ron's Opinion

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roy,

I have had a few discussions with Ron concerning the Stone Maps. He believes they are fake, but has some reproductions hanging on his office wall. :)

I don't believe you can find a single "expert" who believes the maps are anything but a modern-day hoax. If anyone knows of such an expert, I would appreciate knowing a name.

The maps do, as Randy states, lead to "something". They lead to a number of empty mines, a large heart formation, and a natural triangle which has a sizeable magnatite or magnsite (old age) :( outcropping in the middle.

I will continue to reveal the information I have on the Stone Maps, and their locations, a bit at a time. You can read enough here to decide if I have a clue....or not.

Welcome to the Forum.

Joe Ribaudo
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Bob Corbin, the FBI and the Stone Maps

Post by novice »

The story of Bob Corbin’s involvement with the FBI and the Stone Maps was around long before I became a poster. From time to time someone would ask; “Why can't we find out the true story by simply asking Bob Corbin?” In one of the posts, someone put the onus on the back of Greg Davis and said, since Greg is Bob’s friend why doesn’t he contact him and get the real story. The e-mail posted by krf may have been the result of Greg’s follow through?

I did not copy the initial post on this thread by krf (Deleted) in which he posted that e-mail, so I’m having to go from memory. (Dangerous) If anyone has retained that post I think it would serve the forum if they would simply repost it and then Garry wouldn’t have to be using memory.

I want to share an item that I believe is the foundation for the story and resulting questions. It is a portion of a post by Jim Hatt on desertusa.com in 2002. It is a response to a Gene Botts who was debunking the maps. Most have probably read it but for the few who have not, here it is.

One chilly evening in the winter of 1998, I was sitting beside campfire in the Superstition Mountains along with approximately 8 other individuals listening to the then former Attorney General of the State of Arizona (Mr. Robert Corbin) telling us an experience he had with these very same Stone Maps. To the best of my recollection the story went something like this: Someone had come to the AG's office when Mr. Corbin was the sitting AG, to file a complaint regarding the ownership of these Stone Maps. While in the process of attempting to make every possible effort Mr Corbin could think of to determine who actually was the rightful owner of the stones, The matter of where and when they were found and dug up brought into the situation, the question of whether or not they were covered by the Antiquities Law? Under the circumstances, Mr. Corbin confiscated the Stones and had them shipped to the FBI Labs (I believe he said in Washington, DC but I am not sure) to see if they could determine the age of the writing on the Stones, and/or anything else that might help determine their origin . Mr. Corbin told us that evening beside the campfire that when the FBI returned the Stones to him with their evaluation, that the only the thing the FBI would commit themselves to reporting about the writing on the Stones was that it was over 100 years old. Mr. Corbin then stated that in view of this information he determined that the Stone Maps, No matter who made them or why... Were covered under the Antiquities Law, and refused to return them to either of the parties claiming ownership. He then placed them where they are today at the Arizona Museum of Mines and Minerals in Phoenix to be preserved as Relics of Arizona History! Had it been possible to determine the actual method that had been used to carve these stones, I fully believe the FBI could and would have done it at that time. I mean no disrespect for the opinions of Father Polzer whatever they might be, or heaven forbid.... The unknown Stone Cuter, But I tend to put more faith in the above related story than anything Mr. Botts has presented herein.

Several things is this story conflict with my present understanding of the events, but I suspect a conversation did take place at that time. Hatt posted this under his own name and it would stretch my credulity that Corbin was unaware of these claims by Hatt. Whatever the case, I am not aware that Corbin ever tried to publically set the record straight until his e-mail to Greg.

A few of the assertions of Hatt include;

1. Mr. Corbin was the sitting AG
2. Mr. Corbin confiscated the Stones and had them shipped to the FBI Labs
3. The FBI returned the Stones to him (Corbin) with their evaluation, that the only the thing the FBI would commit themselves to reporting about the writing on the Stones was that it was over 100 years old.
4. (The stones) Were covered under the Antiquities Law, and (Corbin) refused to return them to either of the parties claiming ownership.
5. He (Corbin) then placed them where they are today at the Arizona Museum of Mines and Minerals in Phoenix to be preserved as Relics of Arizona History!

These statements all seem to fly in the face of current understanding? They also are not supported by the Corbin e-mail. I guess we could come up with 100 different scenarios of Hatt’s statements but I will only offer three, the third being the most likely.

1. The conversation never took place and Hatt fabricated everything to support his views.
2. The conversation took place exactly as Hatt related it.
3. There was a conversation and Hatt either misunderstood what he was told or he intentionally embellished the story to suit his purposes.

I have been unable to find any type of reference to Corbin’s involvement with the FBI or the Stone maps in either of Helen’s books. This to me seems to suggest that his account of meeting the FBI attorney and a conversation about the stone maps was a Nonevent in his eyes.

I believe the above is most of the where, when, what, why and how the story of Corbin and the FBI involvement began.

Much has been made about the so called FBI laboratories analysis of the Stone maps and their determination that they were over 100 years old. Many of us have argued that we knew of no method to determine when the writing was placed on the stones but several continue to place great faith in the analysis of some laboratory. (Be it Professor Dana, the FBI, etc.)

Jim Hatt himself has published an article regarding the analysis of the stones and it goes into more scientific detail. I would certainly question much that Hatt has related in the past but in this case I would quarrel very little with what he has posted. The article is copyrighted so I will simply provide the address for anyone who hasn’t seen it and would be interested.

http://www.desertusa.com/mag06/oct/peralta.html

As Don says, “Just my 2 cents worth!”

Garry
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Correction

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

I would like to clear up one point from your post.

Going from memory :? , I don't believe the "FBI" lab, ever officially "determined" anything concerning the Stone Maps. What has been related to us.....is that they "believed" they were......forgot the rest of the wording.

Believed does not equate to "are".

Someone may correct me here, as I don't have time to go back and get the exact quote.

Nice post.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Ward »

Novice said;

A few of the assertions of Hatt include;

1. Mr. Corbin was the sitting AG
2. Mr. Corbin confiscated the Stones and had them shipped to the FBI Labs
3. The FBI returned the Stones to him (Corbin) with their evaluation, that the only the thing the FBI would commit themselves to reporting about the writing on the Stones was that it was over 100 years old.
4. (The stones) Were covered under the Antiquities Law, and (Corbin) refused to return them to either of the parties claiming ownership.
5. He (Corbin) then placed them where they are today at the Arizona Museum of Mines and Minerals in Phoenix to be preserved as Relics of Arizona History!

These statements all seem to fly in the face of current understanding? They also are not supported by the Corbin e-mail. I guess we could come up with 100 different scenarios of Hatt’s statements but I will only offer three, the third being the most likely.

1. The conversation never took place and Hatt fabricated everything to support his views.
2. The conversation took place exactly as Hatt related it.
3. There was a conversation and Hatt either misunderstood what he was told or he intentionally embellished the story to suit his purposes.


WOW! Great Post Novice!!!

What's keeping you from posting it as a question directly to Jim Hatt over there on the Desert USA website in front of everybody where he has to respond ot it? Looks like he is responding to everyone overthere, even the idiotic questions.

Your work does deserve a reply as far as I am concerned.
Might be a good way to get some other answers from the horse's mouth too.

ward
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Post by Mike McChesney »

Hey Ward, Joe, and Novice,

Here is the current wisdom on the subject you mention:

Bob Corbin worked in some legal capacity for the State of Arizona in 1964. He was not State Attorney General until much later. He was at the US Attorney's Office in Phoenix, when one of the Assistant US Attorneys, who knew he was an avid LDM Hunter, told him that there were FBI Agents in the office that had the stones.

He went over to them, and asked what they thought. They told him that they believed the stones were "at least" 100 years old. This was in 1964. It happened during the SEC (Seecurities and Exchange Commission) Investigation into the Unregistered Selling of stock by MOEL Inc.

Jim Hatt's story of the event was not far wrong.

Here's what happened after. The SEC Trial lasted ONE day. Not very serious, I wouldn't think. As a result of that trial, MOEL was enjoined (stopped) from selling any more unregistered stock. No fines, no jail. They could have charged MOEL with fraud had the verdict that the stones were modern fakes come back.

The FBI never tested the stones. Earlier, Clarence Mitchell (MOEL CEO) had the stone maps tested by Professor Stephen Dana at Redlands University in California. Professor Dana concluded that the engraving on the stones was "at least" 100 years old. The FBI interviewed Professor Dana, and were satisfied that the tests he did were sufficient to form a conclusion as to their age. They asked for, and received a signed affidavit from Professor dana as to his test results.

The stones were considered a curiosity only. If it could have been proven that they were found in Arizona, they would have fallen under the Arizona Antiquities Law, and been confiscated. Since they couln't prove where the stones were found, Arizona had no claim on them. They were given back to Mitchell after the trial.

When MOEL Inc broke up later, Mitchell had a set of copies made. They were engravings just like the originals. Mitchell took two original stones, and two copies, and a partner took two original stones, and two copies. Mitchell donated his set later to the Arizona Mining and Minerals Museum/AL Flagg Foundation.

Hope this clears some things up.

Here's a little update to what I have found out about the Stone Maps:

I have just today heard back from the Archive Secretary at Redlands University. This is the facility where Professor Stephen Dana supposedly did the testing on the Stone Maps, and came to the conclusion that they were "at least" 100 years old in the early 1960s.

She confirmed that Professor Stephen Dana was a faculty member in the Geological Sciences Dept of Redlands University from 1945 until he retired in 1986. He was also the dominant faculty member in that field for most of his tenure. That means that he would be the "go to" guy to have tests like that performed.

She will contact (for me) a couple of retired Professors who worked with him to see if they heard anything.

She said that Professor Dana took all his papers with him when he retired. He had several daughters (all of whom are Redlands Alumni). She has contacted the Alumni Office, and gotten the address of one of Dana's Daughters. She will call her, and if she desires contact, will give her my contact information.

So, hopefully, after 40 years of guessing, we may finally soon know which tests were performed, what equipment was used, and what led Professor Dana to conclude that the Stone Maps were "at least" 100 years old (in the early 1960s).

IF ANY TESTS WERE DONE AT ALL! There's always that possibility!

Best,

Mike
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Post by novice »

Joe,

I don’t understand your reference to the term “determined”? The only “determined” entry in my post I could find was in Hatt’s account and he wasn’t talking about the FBI.

He (Corbin) “determined” that the Stone Maps…. were covered under the Antiquities Law.

If you are talking about something in the Greg Davis e-mail, I am at your mercy.

I guess my inclination is to dismiss most of the Hatt story, and perhaps take some things from the Corbin E-mail. There apparently was an encounter between Corbin and a FBI representative in a FBI office.

The time frame of the Corbin encounter with the FBI would be of interest to me. According to Helen, Bob became the Maricopa County Attorney in early 1965. I don’t believe he was elected to the Attorney General of Arizona position until 1979 (From Memory) It’s tempting to jump to the conclusion that the meeting was around the time of the MOEL Inc. hearings in 1964 but that might be a mistake.

Mike,

Just saw your post, Good Luck with Dana research.

So called facts and current thinking seem to change every day depending on who is doing the telling. Following unverified facts and speculation are a good way to suffer the fate of old Pipps. :)

Garry
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Meanings

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Garry,

My bad......as you did not give any credit to that allegation of an official "determination". My apologies, Sir.

Having input from all three of the Archaeologist who examined the Stone Maps, in January of 2005, I am convinced that they have given me the truth about the stones they examined.

I have not received a reply from Mr. Steve Decker, who would have been the man who (it is said) loaned out the originals for the test. The museum is not interested in the Stone Maps, for any purpose other than a drawing card, IMHO.

He had no problem taking my money for those High Defination photos, but will not confirm that the are of the originals. After sending the e-mail twice, I am convinced that no answer will be forthcoming. In placing my order for the pictures, I can assure you he was Johnny-on-the-spot.

It seems farfetched to believe that any scientific tests could have been performed on the stones, in the early sixties, that could in any way determine their age.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The lettering is completely wrong for the Spanish language documents of the [supposed] time period." (Dr. Homer Thiel)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is probably the most accurate method of "dating" the Stone Maps.......Style.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"People.....come, they pay money to photograph them," says Ray Grant, chairman of the Arizona Mineral and mining Museum Foundation. "I think people just like lost treasure stories."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I doubt Mike will come up with anything different. I hope he does, because it's not easy to give up a dream you have held for over thirty years. :(

Take care,

Joe
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Steve Decker

Post by novice »

Joe,

Did Dr. Elizabeth Miksa (research geologist) offer any more information other than what was published? Surely she could provide a very educated guess as to the “formation” the soft red sandstone maps were taken from. [I know she said they probably came from the Mogollon Rim or northern Arizona, but no identification of the sandstone formation] Also I don’t believe she addressed the formation (material) and possible location where the stone heart material might have originated. Did you ask her anything like that when you spoke with her?

Maybe Steve Decker doesn’t really know much about the history? If the maps were donated, I would suspect the receiving party would actually have retained a document that listed the donation and who gave it. Find those documents and we will finally have something concrete. Anything else will probably satisfy no one.

I would agree that style is about the only thing that provides a hint as to when the writing was placed on the stones. Some would argue the method of fabrication could also be used but that area could easily have been contaminated over the years. Also for anyone concluding that the stone maps on display or in the hands of the mining museum are replicas, the method of fabrication holds little relevance. But I "believe" most would agree that the style has remained the same, whether replica or original.

The style question in various forms has always been around a long time and been a problem for even people who want to believe the maps are authentic. (Particularly the Horse Map) [Bobby’s Horse as Steve Creager liked to call it]. The trail maps are not burdened by cartoons nor any lettering other than numbers so they are not as difficult to accept.

Garry
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Post by Mike McChesney »

Hey Folks,

Novice,

It is a known fact that Clarence O. Mitchell donated his set of the stone maps, sometime after MOEL Inc broke up (The story is, that "HIS SET" consisted of two original and two copies of the original set, with two originals, and two copies going to one of Mitchell's partners).

Bob Corbin never concluded that the Stone Maps were covered under the Arizona Antiquities Act. As a matter of fact, NOBODY ever concluded that, as ownership of the stones was returned to Clarence Mitchell.

The time when the Corbin/FBI Event took place would have been in September, 1964, as everything was settled by October 1st of that year.

I think everyone should realize that the MOEL "Hearings" were really not that big a deal. The SEC Litigation Release dated Monday Sep 28, 1964 states that the MOEL Trial is set for Sep 30th, 1964, at 2PM. The second litigation Release, dated Thursday, Oct 1st, 1964, states that MOEL is enjoined (ordered to stop) from selling unregistered stock. The trial lasted ONE DAY! I don't think any SERIOUS trial in the history of the United States, has ever lasted that short a time (unless Judge Judy presided).

Best,

Mike
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

Hey,

Who ever you are I know your on this forum listening.

Stop calling.

IF YOU CALL AGAIN I'LL TELL YOU THE SAME THING AS TODAY TAKE A FREAKEN NUMBER AND GET IN LINE!!!!!!!! YOU DO NOT SCARE ANYONE AND SHOULD BE AFRAID YOUR GONNA GET CAUGHT!!!!!! I ALMOST HAD YA THIS AFTERNOON!!! MY PHONE IS WIRED!!!! I CARRY A SIDE ARM AND KNOW HOW TO USE IT SO DON'T EVEN THINK OF COMING DOWN HERE WITH AN ATTITUDE!!!!! SELF DEFENSE IS ALL I NEED AS MY ALIBI!!!!


RK

PS:

WHOMEVER YOU ARE LEAVE ME OUT OF YOUR PROBLEMS WITH THOSE FREAKEN PERALTA STONE MAPS!! I'LL POST WHAT I WANT WHEN I WANT TO!!!!!
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

Someone,

On a happier note has anyone seen an advanced copy of that Dan Dillman show about the Fifth stone map?

RK
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style

Post by Oroblanco »

Greetings,
The style of the inscriptions has been mentioned as perhaps the best method of determining the age and/or validity of the stones - I have to agree. I could not find any Spanish or Mexican inscription quite like the Peralta stones or 'the stones' which ever name one prefers to call them. On that basis, I would lean strongly toward the 'fraud' conclusion.

However this evening I heard from an eminent archaeologist (from the Royal Ontario museum, can't recall the name) on TV of course (don't know the man personally!) that in cases where the inscription style is odd, wierd, different from everything known he leans toward believing the inscription is genuine - BECAUSE it is odd, wierd, different - he stated that the forgers simply look up in the books to make up frauds, and copy known, existing inscriptions. On that basis, the Peralta stones or The Stones might be genuine, because they ARE unlike any known inscription.

I still lean (95%) toward the fraud conclusion, because I cannot easily dismiss the statements of Father Polzer and the Desert Archaeology Inc experts, who did examine the stones in hand, and because the inscriptions just don't look right to me. I guess if I were more than half convinced the stones were genuine, I would make the field trips and try to find the treasure/lost mines they are supposed to lead to - and as has been posted, they do seem to lead to known sites, none of which has any spectacular value.

I wonder if the stones might not be something quite different from a 'treasure' or lost mine(s) - after all there is no "oro" no "tesoro" nor "mina" anywhere on them, but there ARE crosses - holy relics, perhaps or graves of martyrs of the faith? Just another theory, without any way to prove up.

Oroblanco
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Post by BlackBeard »

Whoever,

The same Father Polzer that went to Mexico to claim a newly discovered Spanish Gold Mine in the Seirra Madre's in the name of the Jesuits and Vatican? He did this while claiming it as being one of the mines that he tried so hard to disprove to others were never worked by the Jesuit's?

He was a Father and a good church going Jesuit but his faith clouded his abilities to give an objective opinion of the historical truth that he didn't know.

PS:

Oh, Hi their Mikey-Kikey we have some unfinished business you low life, and your little Bug Brother Rochha too!

I'll see ya both on the Boxing Forum you Libby Luny Lefty and your bug brother Whitey Kitey Righty! :D :D :evil:

Think you had me thrown off that other Forum?

Better think again.

"I'm everywhere and I'm no where"!

(Hannibal the Cannibal) :twisted: :twisted:

BB :twisted:

NOTE: Case and spaces are relevant in usernames. For example ROCHA is not the same as rocha

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Message

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

This post was read by the management, so I moved it to the First Amend;ment Forum.

Joe Ribaudo
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