Bob Corbin - The FBI - The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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Heidi II
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trails,trails,trails

Post by Heidi II »

Is journey to ldm a trail or a way.

A way to a past before all.

Yellow brick road.


Go Go Go.


Heidi
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Mike McChesney
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Re: History?

Post by Mike McChesney »

Mike,

You guys certainly know a lot about Spanish markers. Where does one go to learn this stuff? I have a number of books, but most of them just repeat someone else's spill, and none of them have a historical basis.

Is there any source, pre-1900s, that lays out this information? Why would the Kings men bring treasure out of Mexico? The King would want it in Mexico City ASAP, onto a ship and headed for the Royal Coffers. Spain was starved for cash and would not want any treasure setting around getting dusty.

If treasure was being hidden to keep it out of the King's hands, why use the King's rules for marking trails and making maps? The same question applies to Jesuit treasures. Does common sense ever come into play here, or were they all "stuck on stupid"?

Joe Ribaudo
Hey Joe,

I'll give you a quick history about the subject:

Since the early 1500's, the Spanish had been coming to the New World in search of Gold and Silver (but mostly gold). Written Permission from the King of Spain was required to come to the New World and either open a mine, or conquer people that already had gold. For the King to give this written permission, the miner or conquistador was required pay to the King of Spain one-fifth of anything they found (it was called the Royal Quint). Many times the people who wanted to get this written permission didn't have the money to fund a mining or treasure hunting expedition, so the King may have more fully funded these people if he believed in them, but the King's percentage went up depending on how much he had to fund (but 20% was the minimum).

For a couple of hundred years, miners and conquistadors would gather their wealth, and cache it to pick up and take back on the return trip. They made their own maps, markers, and monuments. Sometimes, the entire expedition or mining party would be killed by Indians, Disease, Flash Floods, or whatever. When this happened, the King would lose whatever wealth that party had cached, because the only people who could understand the maps or markers were dead! Sometimes, more unscrupulous people would try and cheat the King out of his share, and they would get all they could and disappear, again, the King lost out. I guess by the early 1700s, that sort of thing was fairly common, so, King Philip V in about 1730 decreed that all maps, markers, and monuments leading to ANY mines and treasure caches in the New World were to be standardized. That way, if the first party all died, the King could send another party later on to recover anything the first party left behind. With the maps filed at one of the Palaces of Governors, and all the markers standardized, anybody on the King's business could understand anybody else's maps/markers (and the King wouldn't lose out on anything).

Here were the actual rules:

1. Any person who operated a mine, was required to make three maps, and submit them to the Palace of Governors in either Santa Fe, Mexico City, Acapulco, or Madrid. The maps went like this;
Map# 1: Covered a large area, and guided the way from the base Hacienda/Pueblo, to the edge of the mountain range the mine was in.
Map# 2: Was more detailed, and guided the way through the mountain range, to the general area of the mine/cache.
Map# 3: Was the most highly encrypted. It detailed the specic mine/cache locations.
The different Palaces of Governors had inspectors, whose only job was to check out the different maps by following them to the mines/caches. If the trails were improperly marked, or misleading, the penalties ranged from the mine owner losing his license to mine, being kicked out of the New World, and even Death (if it was proven that they purposefully were trying to hide money from the King). You have to remember, that during this period, the Spanish were at war with England, and needed every Real and Escudo they could get!

2. EVERY marker, monument, or symbol must mean the same thing for every mine/cache (Hearts=Gold, 7s on maps and letters=Gold, 7s on Rock Carvings meant permanent Campsite, X= Trail IN to a mine/cache, +[CROSS]= Trail out/away from a mine/cache going home, etc, etc).

Here is a nice "7" that leads to a permanent campsite:

Image

3. Death Traps weren't required, but were advised (depending on the value of the mine/cache). There were VERY specific rules regarding the setting of Death Traps! If you're wandering along a trail, and find a heart with either a crack or lightning bolt running through it, I wouldn't advise doing any digging there. There's a good chance the whole side of the hill could come down on you. I have heard stories of the French and English using Death Traps, but have never seen proof of it. I have only found a couple of Death Traps, and they were all associated with Spanish things. A great quote in one of Chuck Kenworthy's books is "The ONLY positive thing about coming across a Death Trap in the wilderness, is the absolute fact that you are within 200 feet of a valuable Mine or cache!" Death Traps were REQUIRED to be ALL within 75 varas (200ft) of the mine/cache entrance. The Spanish were so good at designing and building Death Traps, that most of them that were built 200-300 years ago, will kill you just as dead today! They are nothing to be taken lightly!

4. You might have heard of a "Turtle" made of rocks? A Turtle ALWAYS showed the way to a mine/cache. Even knowing that, you could still not know the right way to go, because there were subtle differences in design that caused the direction of travel to change dramatically! There might be markings on the shell rock, the head/neck rock might be angled in the direction of travel, if the tail rock wasn't straight out of the back of the shell, you should follow the direction it was pointing, if one of the leg rocks is angled differently than the other three, you should follow the direction it is pointing. There are several more, but that's enough to get you started!

Here's a turtle in Eastern California that points the way to a gold mine that was reopened and reworked in the 60's (see how the head is angled towards the camera slightly? The head is what is looking towards the mine):

Image

That turtle is enormous! It's about 30 feet in diameter. See the petroglyphs at the bottom left?

A great website to look at is Mike Pickett's

www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com Lots of great info there.

Chuck Kenworthy has a few books out on the subject (long out of print, but available).

Some of the info was found in archives in Santa Fe, Mexico City, and Madrid.

I think Tom Penfield had a book on the subject.

There's lots of info out there.
\
Best,

Mike[/img]
Joe Ribaudo
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Thanks

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

Thanks for the lesson.

I have all of those books, been to the website and heard the stories.

I am still waiting to hear of a source that can be viewed today, that pre-dates 1900. I am also waiting for someone to validate Chuck Kenworthy's "documents", in any way.

There is a huge 1 in the side of Weaver's Needle. I can find that stuff in almost every picture I have ever taken and in any place in the country. I would guess the same holds true for the rest of the world.

People have sent me pictures of hearts, sevens, ones, ten's.....whatever.
They all lead to a treasure or mine. There is always a reason why no treasure was found.

You have told us what the King required......Is there somewhere, official, where we can see those documents, as you have laid them out? You realize that, if true, those documents would be all over the place.

Joe Ribaudo
Ronnie Kelso
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

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Mike McChesney
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Post by Mike McChesney »

First,

That's not right out of Kenworthy's books. I would never use Kenworthy as a lone reference without checking other sources first! Kenworthy had a habit of not only leaving things deliberately out of his books, but he also had a penchant for exaggeration! Look at some of the photos in his books. Many look like they were altered to make his point better, but they are a good source of information.

What you say about Mike Pickett are patently untrue! I have phoned him several times, and when he didn't answer the phone, he returned any of my messages promptly. Depending on when you called, he might have been out of town, because I know he has been working a site in SoCal near the Az border. He has helped me quite a few times, when I got stuck.

What you say about the treasure stockpiles isn't exactly right either. The thirteen known wrecks along Floridas Treasure Coast (11 found), are primarily from two fleets. The 1622 fleet was the one that included the Nuestra Senora de Atocha, and the 1715 Plate Fleet. Trust me, the Spanish would rather risk the loss of a few ships, to get some of the treasure, than let it sit. You have to remember, not only was gold and silver piling up from Alta Primeria, it was flooding in from all over Central and South America. Most everything went through Havana, before going to Spain. Occasionally, ships that left Panama bypassed Havana, but not usually! Havana was the last stop for provisions before the Atlantic Crossing.

I haven't found ANYTHING "using anybody's books!" I have found several trails in Southern New Mexico, and SoCal. One in NM and one in SoCal were Royal. The one in SoCal was found by finding other trails first, and those led to the Royal Trail. As a matter of fact, that's where I was Saturday. Here's a pic of me near the Sentry Rock (a big flattopped boulder near the top of a 4000ft peak, that looks all the way up both sides of the last canyon along the trail).

Image

Here's the protected campsite we found near the mouth of this canyon. It overlooks the trail into the canyon, and has a four foot rim of boulders at the edge. We still have to run metal detectors over it.

Image

I will tell you one thing I know for sure:There will never be any big grandiose monuments at the site of any large cache or mine. The actual treasure/mine site would never be obvious. You would have to know what to look for to know you are there.


Best,

Mike
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Ronnie Kelso
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

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Post by Mike McChesney »

Nice one as well!

We had to put ours back together some.

Best,

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
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Very Nice!

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Guys,

Those really are nice. Did you notice that both seemed to be constructed differently? Another thing......No worn donkey path. :? The one seems a little cluttered for effeciency.

Joe Ribaudo
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Mike McChesney
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Post by Mike McChesney »

I did notice that. Mine looks older. Ronnie's looks better constructed, but newer. Mine was also mostly buried, and many of the border rocks were fallen over.

Mike
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Still Cluttered

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Yours would have required a kangaroo to power it. Did someone just drag all those large rocks into the donkey path for fun?

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Mike McChesney
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Post by Mike McChesney »

I have no idea how all the stones came to be there. Any trail the donkey would have made was under about a foot of dirt. About 2/3rd of the arrastra was buried. Many of the stones were out of place, or fallen over. The drag stone, and the stones under the drag stone were all in place.

Mike
Heidi II
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Pictures

Post by Heidi II »

Mike, Ronnie

Pretty, pretty pictures. Thanks for sharing them.

Have you heard that a Roman city existed in Arizona?

Legend has it they hid things in the Superstitions.

Signs in mountains and things they made.

All hidden but one.

Explains a lot.

Heidi has to go. Bad men close.


Heidi
JIM HAMRICK
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bob corbin-the FBI-the stone maps

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

Great pictures of arrastras. In a lot of years roaming in the mountains and desert I have never found an old arrastras, some of you seem to have lady luck's favor more than me. From the vegetation there is a large difference in the elevations of the arrastras. From what I have read arrastras were generaly build close to a water source, have these been located? Did you find or look for the waste piles as they should have a quantity of recoverable gold?
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Post by Mike McChesney »

Very good questions Jim,

We got a little dust from the ring itself (we panned it with our water), but there was no tailings pile, nor was there a waste pile. Can't say for certain, but it looks like everything was spread out all over the area. If you walk around the area, there is nothing but small broken rocks laying everywhere. All the mountains themselves are very fractured. There are huge quartz blowouts all over the place, and little chunks of White, Pink, and Rosy Quartz are spread all over the place.

I don't know if the arrastra was buried intentionally, or if Mother Nature did it for us, but it does look like someone took great pains to hide everything there.

Best,

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
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Source?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

William,

"A lot of documents contradict what history says. The King did order all shipments of Gold and Silver to be stockpiled after the Atcoha and the Treasure fleets all went down in a storm. I don't think they ever recovered the stock piles of treasure after that because Spain was afraid to transport any more and the days of the huge Treasure flotilla's were gone. The order was never given after that to open and transport the gold shipments again.

They lost a lot of world power after that." (emphasis in bold by Joe)

I don't believe there is any documentation to support your statements. Do you have a source for your "historical" statements of "fact"?

The Atocha sank in 1622, and Spain was virtually bankrupt prior to that event. If King Philip IV had a fear, it was that the silver from Potosi would fail to reach the treasury.......for any reason. He could not afford to "stockpile" it anywhere.

The ship, Santa Margarita, was found and a great deal of her treasure cargo was salvaged. In 1626 the Spanish fleet arrived in Havana and the treasure was loaded aboard the ships and taken to Spain.

I visited the site you recommended, and found nothing to support the claims of "secret" map "rules" or anything remotely resembling such things.

If you have a credible source, please give it. Of all the countries of that era, Spain was one of the very best at documenting......everything. If it had anything to do with Spain, it is written somewhere.

Actually, if anyone has such a source.....let's see it. I have made the same request many times, here and elsewhere. The results is always the same.....NADA!

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

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Joe Ribaudo
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Documents

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Bill,

There is nothing in the document you provided which supports your previous statement. You need to reread it. The reasoning and scope of the "letter" in question, seems pretty straightforward.

I have already done more "looking" than is warranted by the facts which are available.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by Ronnie Kelso »

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Joe Ribaudo
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Names

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ronnie,

No offense meant. I am never sure when I respond to your posts, who will be in control at that moment. :?

The post you gave us does not support your earlier statement. I was pretty sure you had lot's of time on your hands......considering the time and effort it took you to look at your own "Horse Map" topic, 36,000 or so times.

I actually had no problem with the site you recommended, what I had a problem with was finding anything to support your "historical facts". No need for you to trouble yourself trying to find that one "fact" out of 500,000 documents.

Thanks for the kindness of your replies and efforts on my behalf.

Joe Ribaudo
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rochha
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Post by rochha »

Joe,

You should know by now that when dealing with Billy and his multiple identities you never know who is going to answer the phone!

What's comical is he actually thinks he's Ronnie Kelso.

Rochha
Joe Ribaudo
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Wrong?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Rochha,

As always......I could be wrong. :)

It's also possible that someone else pumped up "Ronnie's" topic. It's hard to believe that there are people that crazy out there, but in this case we seem to have garnered our share. Well.....perhaps a bit more than our share. :lol:

The really scary part, is that there are folks who believe the charade. When Jan first appeared, I tried to expose the truth. That got me nowhere, so I just joined the game. As long as the conversation has some point....why not?

As long as "Ronnie's" posts have a point, and some basis in fact, I will be happy to keep the conversation going.

Joe
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Mike McChesney
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Post by Mike McChesney »

Why don't we just start calling everyone with multiple IDs Sybill? It was a great story about a poor girl with about 16 separate personalities. It came out in the mid seventies.

Best,

Mike
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