Bob Corbin - The FBI - The Stone Maps

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
Post Reply
buscar
Part Timer
Posts: 148
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:36 am
Location: Mohawk Valley

AUTHENTIC OR FAKE

Post by buscar »

The Peralta Stone Maps fall into two categories AUTHENTIC or FAKE.

We know that the stone maps are COPIES a past version that DOES exist. However, if the past versions are FAKE (something not genuine) then the COPIES are FAKE. But, what if the past versions are AUTHENTIC and the supposed COPIES are FAKE?

Gradually, the past version became a faded memory, nothing more than a source of stories to those that came after.

Whether you call them fakes, forgeries, reproductions, copies or counterfeits, there has to be a sign or some sign of being AUTHENTIC or FAKE. Therefore, we must look at the total picture and not just a few characteristics.

The one characteristic that seems to stand out is that the maps LOCKED away are not fake. Why? Because they are known by a few people (unwilling to reveal or share information) and intentionally withheld from general knowledge.

If untrue, then why the ( surreptitious methods) nature to keep
things secret?

buscar :)
murphy
Part Timer
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 9:12 am
Location: Plano, TX

Bob Corbin- The FBI- The Stone Maps

Post by murphy »

I have heard of People being able to Photograph and examine the originals for a fee. Anyone know if that is still possible? That might clear up any discussion of omissions or changes in the copies.
Jim
murphy
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Post by Mike McChesney »

Hey Murohy,

I think what Buscar is trying to say is that the stones that are in the M&MM are copies of the originals long gone.

I have heard that from a couple of other sources as well, but nobody is certain.

Best,

Mike
Scott
Part Timer
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:49 pm

Post by Scott »

Mike , A member of our group of prospectors told us about the stone maps back in the 70's.I knew him as K.C. Flemming.He lived across the
street from the mineral museum and was around when the stones arrived.
I wish my memory was better. He was always down there hanging around and had been shown all kinds of "maps" that people brought in for study.
He would take pictures and talk to the folks that brought them in.The
reproductions I saw were sandstone and no signs of weathering was seen.
I saw them displayed as and presented as original stones.A confidence man was attempting to raise monies and people to search before the area
went wilderness.K.C. kept it low profile and didn't saw that the stones that this man had were B.S.This guy also has an electronic device that he said
reflected gamma or alpha waves and was NASA moon technology.It was
used to locate caves or caches thru rock.Thats another story.
Any how, the maps I saw were fake ,by K.C. experience.
Scott
Part Timer
Posts: 69
Joined: Sun Dec 22, 2002 3:49 pm

Post by Scott »

The stone map pictures that K.C.Flemming showed me were taken from the original "stones". They were resting on graph paper with a ruler
beside. His camera was not to good.I may have negatives . I inherated many things from the old guys, I will see if I have any. During that time we were working on claiming lode and placer sites,tracing old trails,documenting cactus and monument markers and searching for
hidden caches and back filled mines. Most of these were outside of the
"supes" but still in the area. Mike,Your post jogged my memory banks good. I cant remember rif the pics were before or after the stones went to
ASU. I also remember reading somewhere that the stones on display are
copies. I was not real interested in the maps back then. There was no way
authenticate them in my young mind
Scott
.
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Post by Mike McChesney »

Thanks Scott,

Are you saying the stones were tested at ASU? That's a new one for me. I've heard that Mitchell had them tested in californbia, and the FBI tested them, but never heard of any ASU Tests.

Are there any names or dates of testing? I love all the info. I need to be able to verify it if possible.

Thanks again-Mike
novice
Expert
Posts: 542
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 5:53 pm
Location: Lake St. Louis, Missouri

Copies?

Post by novice »

Buscar,

You lost me on the first, "We know that the stone maps are COPIES, a past version that DOES exist."

I guess I'm not sure of your reference point. Since everyone is familiar with the photo of the Tumlinson stones on the auto bumper, can you clarify what you are saying using that as a reference?

Are you saying that the stone maps on the bumper are copies of earlier maps? (Stone, paper or otherwise)

OR

Are you saying the stone maps locked away by the Arizona Mineral and Mining Museum Foundation are copies? (I believe Rocha and Joe have hinted at this possibility)

OR

Are you saying that copies, of the stone maps locked away by the Arizona Mineral and Mining Museum Foundation, have been fabricated for public display? (I believe this version is widely accepted?)

OR
Are you saying something completely different?

I won't even tackle the rest of your post until I can get my feet under me! I know the we, you used in "We know" did not include me! :)

Garry
rochha
Part Timer
Posts: 219
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:19 pm

stone maps

Post by rochha »

Buscar,

I believe the stone maps at the mines and minerals museum are copies of the origianls ( the ones on the bumper in glovers book ).

I have had the opportunity to handle and photograph the ones at the mines and minerals museum.

This is just my opinion.

Rochha
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

I Concur....Dr.

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Buscar,

You may add my name to the bottom of Roccha's post.

Joe Ribaudo
ROCHA
Greenhorn
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:17 pm

Post by ROCHA »

Scratch that,

the Stone Maps are Real,
yes, definitely real!

I saw the photo's of them from some Bozo that left them for garbage.

They are Real in my other Opinion!! Couldn't be any other way.

The FAKES ARE THE ONES ON THE BUMPER IN THE PHOTO.
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Where are the originals then? That is the 3rd set of copies I know of. Just curious I guess.
ROCHA
Greenhorn
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:17 pm

Post by ROCHA »

Some new revelations for your consideration. The maps are definitely real (including Bobbi's horse). They were generated in 1766 +/- 6months. The area is in the SM's, but not sacred to anyone (Peter, Please note). I have a name and an image, photo of a painting, of the author. The location of the early storage of the maps is known, not along the trail in Arizona. The maps identify the mine locations but more important the location of a billion dollar cache of gold, silver, and gems that was held back from the King of Spain. We continue to get closer. This will be the year!!!

azmula
Maybe he knows?
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Post by Mike McChesney »

From some information I have received in the last couple of days, it looks like there are many copies of the stone maps floating around.

I have copies of emails that state a company called Graphics Productions (now in Utah) in 1987, was contracted by AM&M Foundation to make the original molds for copies to be displayed when the originals were on loan.

Later, the company manufactured between 20-22 copies of the stones. After that, the molds were sold to an artist in Laguna Beach who made about 5 sets before destroying the molds. I understand that he also made molds in one-half size of the originals.

Best,

Mike
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Post by Mike McChesney »

One of my sources of information, who had some unusual misfortunes befall him after making some information public some years ago, has asked me to post his personal feelings about Tom Kollenborn.

Let me say first, that I don't know the man personally, but I have not heard anything bad about him. So, if you have a problem with Mr. Kollenborn, this is not my opinion. I am simply passing on a sentiment from another person who obviously thinks the world of him (I wish I had somebody to take my back like this)!

"Tom Kollenborn has a gentle nature, which is a prerequisite for working with children like he has all of his life as a Scout Leader and Educator in the public school system. I have known him for nearly 20 years and never known him to encourage or support any kind of controversy between two individuals or groups of people. Tom will in fact go out of his way to avoid becoming involved in controversy of any kind himself, or strive to bring it to a peaceful conclusion between others if he can. In the case of the stone maps, we are talking about a very controversial subject right out of the gate. My first impressions about the stone maps were pretty much influenced by Tom in a discussion I had with him about them back around 1990. I had no personal opinion about them at the time and Tom felt free to discuss what he knew about them openly without fear of a controversy erupting from anything he said. We spent about 20 minutes discussing all the positive aspects in favor of their validity as far as pertaining to something of value in the Superstitions or anywhere else. Then we spent a fairly equal amount of time discussing the negative aspects in favor of the idea that they were fakes. Tom can make a very respectable case for either side of that discussion, and I came away from it without any idea of what his personal opinions about the validity of the maps were. If he knows he is speaking to a disbeliever, I can easily imagine him giving them his 20-minute version of the negative aspects of the validity of them, without presenting any of the positive aspects he is aware of, and avoiding the possibility of a disagreement with them. On the other hand if he knows he is speaking to a believer in the validity of them, It is just as easy for me to imagine that he would give them his 20-minute version of the positive aspects while avoiding the mention of any of the negative aspects. At this late Date, Tom is very familiar with my opinions on the subject, and even tho he may have in his possession enough evidence to blow all of my opinions and beliefs clear out of the water, it would not be in his nature to do so. Tom places a high value on Friendship and would not jeopardize his friendship with anyone over a personal opinion on anything. I do not doubt that your friend had a discussion with Tom about the stone maps and came away with the impression that Tom is a nonbeliever in the validity of them based solely on his comments about the negative aspects and no comments about the positive aspects, but I would hesitate to form a definite conclusion of what Tom’s opinions are about the stone maps based on that one conversation with that one individual."

So, my friend, I hope this satisfies your request.

Best,

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

What?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"Tom will in fact go out of his way to avoid becoming involved in controversy of any kind himself..."

We are discussing the possibility that the Stone Maps may be a modern-day creation, and Mr. Kollenborn's "friend" decides he needs to mix that man's name into the conversation.... I assume, without his knowledge.

Don't know Mr. Kollenborn, but I do know a great deal of his history.
This "friend" sounds more like a "wolf" in sheep's clothing to me.

I'm not sure if your post is a positive or negative for Mr. Kollenborn.
On the positive side, we have a testimonial concerning his character that the author was not willing to deliver himself, and on the negative side you have inserted him into a conversation he might want to avoid.

Is the purpose of the post to lead us away from Mr. Kollenborn, or to him? Hard to believe there was NO purpose in your receiving the information.

I would guess that a good number of folks will be re-thinking the direction of this thread. :? Perhaps that is why......

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Post by Mike McChesney »

As I said, I posted that at the request of one of my sources of information. Maybe he will explain, maybe not, we'll see.

I am not making any judgements on Tom Kollenborn's Character. I don't personally know the man, and therefore can't speak intelligently about him.

As stated in the post, the person that requested the post had disclosed some information a few years back, and was on the receiving end of much heartache. He stated to me that he doesn't post anywhere any more because he doesn't want to go through the problems again.

Best,

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Staying Away

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

I should think that your "friend" would be welcomed back here with open arms. The mindless attacks by some of our "new" members, hopefully are a thing of the past. Actually, I believe that Count will stick to his guns on the focus of the "new" LDM Forum.

For those who have accused me of being Count, despite our serious differences of opinion, you might want to consider what I would have done with this Forum a few years earlier.

There is really only one person who could have penned that note to you Mike, and many here will recognize him immediately. In time, he may shed some of the useless baggage he is carrying, around, and return.

In the meantime I believe the research into the authenticity of the Stone Maps will continue, despite the threats and verbal abuse that may come our way.

It's possible that there is no one left alive who knows the truth, but if anyone does, I believe it would be Tom Kollenborn. After all........
who else in the Dutch Hunting Community has toes that big? :)

The riddle that is in this little mystery is: Why would someone of his stature argue both sides of the Stone Map's authenticity? :?

Good hunting and....Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Last edited by Joe Ribaudo on Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
zentull
Expert
Posts: 1038
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:15 am
Location: Surprise, Arizona
Contact:

Post by zentull »

Tom Kollenborns map is in both the "Curse" and "The Bible". At the North East end of Bluff Springs mountain he has written "Stone map artist here"
at the 3692 elevation marker.
ROCHA
Greenhorn
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:17 pm

Post by ROCHA »

Artist, Smartest, who knows?
Rocha,
You are correct on every point you made and some not made. The four Peralta Stone maps function alone, but in several different ways as I eluded to in my open to everyone articles. No other maps are required. There are signs, symbols and monuments located in the mountains to lead us to the exact point of the Jesuit Treasure & Gold Mines. Most of the Signs and Symbols are still in existence, some have been destroyed compliments of some of the previous bad Dutch hunters who thought they were giving themselves an edge. Of course the jolly green suits don't help at all.

They were created by Jesuit Priest's who never had the opportunity to pass the code to anyone; not family, Jesuit or Pope. So they remain "as a hoax" to all those who can not translate their directions to the end of the rainbow (for many of us who enjoy the challenge of the hunt this the goal).

Azmula

This man knows his stuff about the Peralta stone maps. According to his own words he has solved the secret Jesuit codes.One can only speculate about the origins of the stones and many can claim to know the code. But no one else has laid out the way the stone maps work more powerful and convincing with presentation of supporting evidence than Mr Azmula.

After reading his analysis and historical documentation on the Peralta Stone Maps Mr Azmula says: "I believe the Peralta Stone Maps are real and after my proof beyond a shadow of a doubt most on the forum would agree".

Any others would only be trying to silence the masses and keep the stone map knowledge from falling into someone else's hands beside their own. Some posters have put forth false information on the forum to throw others off of the stone map trail.
Azmula has given his open to all forum lessons on the reading and solving of the Peralta Stone Maps along with his open articles. I think we owe him a big thanks for his contributions and documentation verification of the stone map carvings creation and verification timeline.

The one thing for sure that Azmula did prove was the Peralta Stone Maps are not fakes at least not all of them. Bob's FBI guys gave their analysis that supports Azmula's documented findings historically.

Case Closed the Peralta Stone Maps in the Mining and Mineral Museum is the real McCoy's. All others fake.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Interesting, but.......

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Mr. Kollenborn's map is very interesting, but not for what he put in it, rather what he left out. Anyone who knows the man's history will know what I am talking about.

As for the "Stone map artist here" site, you could look at that from two different perspectives. Assuming that he believes the Stone Maps are legitimate, would he point out the place where the maps were drawn from?

Assuming that he believes the maps are a hoax, how could he be certain of the exact point they were drawn from. Why does he call the author of the maps an "artist"? The only part of the maps that could be called artistic, kinda, are the horse and priest maps. Are they the fakes?

Were the trail maps the real thing and the others created later to confuse the (other) searchers?

Could that be why Tom Kollenborn is both a believer and non-believer?

I have never talked to Mr. Kollenborn, so anything I have said which reflects on him, is pure speculation. That speculation is based on the Stone Maps themselves, and the known history of the man.

Joe Ribaudo
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Post by Mike McChesney »

Hey Rocha,

There's a little more to it than that.

SO FAR, I haven't found any test results from the FBI Archives. Since the tests would have been performed for the US Attorney's Office in relation to the SECs unlicensed stock sale investigation of MOEL Inc, they should be public record.

Also, there is reason to believe that Clarence Mitchell had the stones tested in California long before the SEC Investigation. THAT test was done privately, so the results may be private.

Also, there is another side (from a knowledgeable person) that the FBI never actually tested the stones themselves. They were told about the California Tests, and contacted the Professors that did the testing and considered an affadavit from them proof enough of the stone's age (at least 100 years in 1962 or 3).

All those different stories, but they all come to the same conclusion: The stone maps were "at least" 100 years old in the early 1960s.

To prove one or both of those versions, I have sent emails and letters to the FBIs FOIA Office (Freedom of Information Act), and the appropriate people at Cal State Los Angeles (CSULA) and UC Redlands (at least two of the three Professors that supposedly performed the tests are now deceased).

Best,

Mike
ROCHA
Greenhorn
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:17 pm

Post by ROCHA »

Order a new set of date tests of the Peralta Stone Maps at the Mining and Mineral Museum.


I'm sure the Mining Museum would allow it as they seem to view them as a circus attraction. If it involved ASU and some of there Archaeological Professor's they would probably do it for free and so would the others. As long as the results were made public on this forum and in their Research Library it would be for sake of science.

That would solve the date problem once and for all.

It looks to me like charcoal was used in certain places on the front of the Priest Map at the Museum and this would be perfect for carbon dating. Sounds to me like it's time for a grant.


Easy problem to solve.

Just need some volunteers.

Any takers?

PM me if so.
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Marketing

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

ROCHA,

No one wants new tests done on the Stone Maps at the museum. If they are proven to be modern-day creations, they will loose their appeal.

"Everyone" would include anyone or anything that makes money from the legends of the Superstition Mountains. Despite the (late) efforts being made to "authenticate/date" them, the probabilities of success are slim to none.

What would we talk about? :roll:

Joe Ribaudo
User avatar
Mike McChesney
Expert
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 1:39 am
Location: Arizona Vagrant

Post by Mike McChesney »

Joe is right Rocha,

The Museum makes money from loaning out the stones (or replicas thereof). I don't think they would risk a test coming back that said they were about 50 years old. The money would come top a screeeeeeeeeeeetching halt!

I don't doubt that ANY University would gladly donate their services to date the stones.

Best,

Mike
Joe Ribaudo
Expert
Posts: 5453
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm

Not So Sure.....

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Mike,

"I don't doubt that ANY University would gladly donate their services to date the stones."

I am not so sure that is true. Actually, I would think just the opposite would turn out to be the case.

There is a huge demand for the facilities that have the equipment, personel and time to date artifacts. My guess, is that they would turn up their noses if presented with the Stone Maps.

If that were not true, it would have been done a long time ago, and we would be discussing something else. :lol:

It is my guess that there are people putting their heads together right now, trying to figure out what you know, where you came from and how they can convince you to go back to that place. They will speak to you with one voice.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
Post Reply