Black Cross Butte(s)

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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zentull
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Black Cross Butte(s)

Post by zentull »

Why and what are the stories behind the 2 Black Cross Buttes? Are each entertwined with their own Skeleton canyon and the burial grounds?
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Black Cross Butte

Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Names

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

The same thing happened a number of times in the Superstitions. A number of names with no real history behind them.

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Post by zentull »

So I would guess that Estee Conaster was making reference to the wrong Butte in the drawing ?
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Wrong Butte?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

Conaster was refering to the Black Cross Butte which is located just about 2 miles southwest of Horse Mesa Dam.

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Post by zentull »

So, I guess my next question is Conaster correctly identifying Black cross #2 in its proper perspective or have the 2 become entwined ?
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Correct

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

Conaster is correct. My source is: "The Diaries of John Gregory Bourke" Edited and Annotated by Charles M. Robinson lll. Bourke was there and kept (very) detailed diaries of every twist and turn that brought them to that place.

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What Happened?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Zen,

Wow! This thread came to an abrupt end. I thought your questions were pretty interesting. I hope my bringing a source into the conversation did not put the damper on it.

Bourke is a very good source for information on military marches as well as the geography and ethnology of the area. The diaries are not easy to read, but well worth the effort.

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Post by zentull »

I had noticed that Black Cross Butte had gotten very little play in the past in the forum. With so many different opinions and ideas circulating around it, I thought it would be refreshing and more of a wide open topic that covers a number of areas of interest.

Guess I was wrong.............
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Post by djui5 »

Has anyone ever thought the "I'll show you the mine where the black lines cross" comment had something to do with either of these buttes?
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Black Cross Butte

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Gentlemen,

Some folks would like to confuse the two buttes for their own reasons.
That might be to protect the burial grounds near the "historic" Black Cross Butte, as neither butte has anything to do with the LDM, IMHO.

I assume "protection" is the correct wording here.

Wayne,

You got my interest and a few others as well. :D

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Post by zentull »

Whether it be Jesuit treasure, Peralta caches, The Black Legion or Apache Burial grounds............there is something that plays a bit for everyone.

I have always felt there was something that really stirred the Apaches concerning the Massacre and I have always suggested that in relation to the LDM was something in the periphery that goes unsaid. Somethings are left better unsaid maybe..........

"I ain't superstitous, but a black cat just walked cross my path"

Watching the Tanks light up tonight makes it just creepy enough for me...
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Creepy but Beautiful

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Just got out of the Jacuzzi. Need it, pretty much every night now, and watched a great light show to the south. I love this kind of weather....Lightning, thunder and the wind blowing through our trees.

I agree, "there is something that plays a bit for everyone." Just have to watch who's"play" you are getting cozy with.

For those who like to rummage around in protected sites, you never know when the site stewards are setting up on that ridge, flying over or just stumbling around out there. There is nothing in the ground worth five or so years behind bars, not to mention the fines.

Over and above all that, it just don't seem right......agreed?

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Post by zentull »

Sometimes you LEARN to put your backside to something, rather than tippy toe around. There are somethings that avoidance is a better measure than curiosity.

I don't hang around deserted crossroads at midnight neither. I will take things off key over a fine tuning any day.
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High Country

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Wayne,

I prefer the high country....the higher the better. Too much sickness down in the canyons and valleys. A lot of people who look for the LDM get sick.

You get in much practice with a bow?

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Post by zentull »

Got a nice side yard double gated to keep the kids and dogs out. So I ended up with a 20x50 practice range. Too hot for the drive to Ben Avery right now.

A bow itself can be a very beautiful thing. Good for the soul.
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bows of beauty

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

I know. I used to have two Martins. Lamanated wood. They were things of beauty.

Never used "bow sights", instinctive shooter. Prefered a quiver over a bunch of arrows hanging on my bow. Like you said, they are a "beautiful thing", hated to muck up the lines.

Lived at Vallecito Lake just outside of Durango, CO Nothing better than moving through timberline country hunting deer and elk. I do miss it. :cry:
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Post by zentull »

A very nice gentlemen once told me to let my bow lie at an angle and forget my sights. Let my instinct follow its course. Hard to explain that feeling when it all falls into place. The physics and the spirituality of it all.
Don't know what it did for my hunting over all, but changed my life and perception a bit.

Get to scratch the itch soon enough..........
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Post by Somehiker »

Although I do not often post in this forum,I do more frequently check in to read and learn more from all of you about what has become my favorite vacation destination.Being primarily a hiker-climber with a passion for history and ancient human habitation,I have found that the Superstitions afford me all the challenge and opportunity for discovery that I could wish for these past ten years or so.My first aquaintance with the area came as a result of a business trip to Scottsdale,where I had an extra day and a rental car at my disposal.At the relatively advanced age of fifty- seven,I don't understand why,any more than I did at the age of twelve,I find myself drawn to sites of human hardship and conflict,but without having any particular place to go I headed east until I found myself parked at mesquite flats.Looking north,I decided that a short hike in that direction might be interesting.Two hours later and about a mile or so northeast of the parking area,I came across something that I recognized
from time spent hiking a section of the Sublett cutoff in the Red Sand desert area of Wyoming.Wagon or cart wheel ruts,worn into solid rock always get my attention,and here I was fifteen years later,standing there staring at something that I didn't feel at that time should be there.Similar to the wheel ruts which I have viewed on the Sublett but only about four feet apart and about a quarter to three eigths of an inch deep,these ruts traverse a slight cross-slope between large boulders and have scarred about twelve to fifteen feet of the rock.In an arroyo just west of the ruts I also found a horse or mule shoe,well worn with some of the rectangular nails still in their holes.I have tried on two occasions since then to find any further evidence of similar parallel tracks,without much luck,but I have,I believe, followed an old trail that runs west to east toward Coronado Mesa.
Mike Burns,in his recollection of the massacre events,makes mention of a landmark known to him by a name which suggests control of this landform by people other than his own,a placename which had probably been handed down for several generations with some degree of reverence and respect I think.Although it was very common for the european settlers to give geographical features names that were native-american derived,that shoe was seldom worn on the other foot.
Most of my annual trips to the Superstitions have been spent in the exploration of this lesser traveled area.BCB,Coronado and Horse Mesa as well as the canyons which divide them.Although I have spent,in total,several days of that time on the flanks and peaks of BCB I have yet to observe any moniters of any kind,on foot or airborn,unless they disguise themselves as vultures. :lol: or pilot Apache helicopters.
Having said this,though,I must say that the hair on the back of my neck frequently straightens while there and I would tend to agree that if someone is not comfortable in that situation,then they should just stay clear.Good to see that others on the site enjoy bowhunting as well.Nothing quite so upclose and personal to the quarry.SH
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Hiking

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

SH,

Welcome back.

Those ruts have raised a lot of eyebrows over the years. Did you get some nice pictures?

Hiking thru all of these areas tends to give us all, I believe, a special feeling. Walking the same trails, seeing exactly the same landmarks that the Apache observed as they move towards their rancheria with the cave just behind it. Nanni-Chaddi had boasted that no troops would ever find his retreat.

I used to know a couple of brothers up in Paso Robles, CA who hunted Russian Boars, at night with flashlights and spears. Now that was "up close and personal". 8O

Doubt my shoulders will ever let me draw a bowstring again. I miss that a lot. You boys enjoy the hunt.

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Post by Somehiker »

I have shot several photos of the ruts,on three separate occasions,but because of lighting issues none show the ruts very well.I intend to try again on my next visit,this time with an amber lense filter to improve the contrast.I have been trying to find some time to scan some of my better prints so that I can put them in the archive but its a lengthy process on this old hardware of mine. :roll:
I can sympathize with your difficulty in drawing a bowstring,Joe,as I have suffered from osteoarthritis in my own shoulders caused by multiple dislocations as a result of my teenage hobby of dirt-bike racing.My solution was push/pull-specific exersize combined with a custom built 40/60 compound.SH
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Post by Somehiker »

I doub't that Nanni-Chaddi would be much impressed with the fact that he would have been able to ship via UPS if he were still with us.Coulda used the drop box by the Apache Trail I guess.SH
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It's Hell To Get Old

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

SH,

It's hell to get old, especially if you abused your body while young.

I was a (fire) sprinkler fitter in LA. In those days we used thick wall pipe, and everything was a screw fitting. When I think of the bundles of pipe and the long lengths of main that I picked up off the floor, I understand why my shoulders and back are talking to me know. :lol:

Working over my head with pipe wrenches and heavy pipes have caused the gap between my shoulder and arm to close to a critical degree. Exercise only worsens the problem. At some point, surgery will be the only answer.

For anyone who has not spent a lot of time in archery, it's hard to uderstand the satisfaction that comes, only from that life. The time spent in practice to achive that once in a lifetime shot. The solitude of hunting alone above 10,000' elevation. Can't find that kind of satisfaction behind a desk in a high rise.

I can remember, like it was yesterday, (better make that this morning) :lol: driving to the end of the road above Lemon Dam and hiking through the snow, to my favorite area. All before the sun came up. As I walked, the elk were bugling all around me. Never found anything that matches that feeling.

Thanks for the walk down memory lane.

Joe Ribaudo
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