Petrasch statement

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zentull
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Petrasch statement

Post by zentull »

An interesting thing I noted recently was that Rhiney made the statement that he never thought the old man would die before they made the trip to the boardhouse. It is odd that it seems Waltz's actual moment of death was somehow unexpected in relation to that statement. Everyone plays up the visitations before his death and the circus like atmosphere that was reported, but Petrasch makes a statement that doesn't fit with those last days. Neither do his actions for that matter.

Add in the oddity that according to the story and it's own variations Rhiney was out getting drunk, passed out on the boardwalk, fetching the Doctor with Julia or happened by out front after Julia came back seems strange unto itself. It was after all 5:30 in the morning. Waltz's death came at 6:30 we are told and sunrise at 6:41.

There is also the strange variations in that Holmes spoke with Petrasch on his way out with the ore or without it, Julia argued over the ore with Holmes and Holmes slipped out afterwards when everyone left the room.

I guess my final question just needs a yes or no ( I doubt anyone would elaborate and I expect none). Did Gideon Roberts ever make any statement on what transpired that morning ?
Wiz
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Post by Wiz »

Zen,
Roberts didn't make any public statement that I've ever heard of. But I think the Holmes manuscript says that he and Dick Holmes immediately got together and compared what they had each heard Waltz say. I've always wondered what Gideon Roberts actually came away with. He was an older, more mature man, probably a friend of Waltz's, and to my thinking would probably have listened more closely to a deathbed statement than a younger, more gold-crazed fellow would have.

It would sure be interesting to have been a fly on the wall that day.
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Family Members' Knowledge of Waltz's Last Minutes

Post by azmula »

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Post by TGH »

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Post by zentull »

There could not be much space in that room with Waltz. I would think that Roberts would have taken a seat possibly in the room with Waltz. Holmes being the younger man would have most likely remained standing. It seems that Julia could not have completely disappeared looking at the layout of the place. There is a reason for the variations on the death bed confession story. I am sure all the uglyness was sanitized.

I do not want to draw out a discussion on the confession itself as Holmes reports it. We have tried that and I think we all understand that it did not happen the way it was told. I am intrigued though by the lack of information from Roberts and the very odd statements Petrasch made concerning the incident.

I would like to add one other question though......How did Dick Holmes find the body of Waltz's nephew based on the information we are given? If he was given these concise directions privately, why couldn't he find the mine?

There are 6 possible witnesses to what happened around 6:30 in the morning. There are 3 that are completely silent.
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Post by Ward »

don,

You don’t really expect Ron Feldman to interviene do you? i have never seen a Jewish busines man from New York yet that would take a standing on anything that might effect there bank account , he’s so afraid that he might loose a single horse rental or book sale over something he might say that he won’t even answer a question on his own forum. he sends one of his kids to speak for him.

as far as PETIER goes (which is NO WHERE) he has been displaying the efects of the CREEPING DESPIRATION for a long time and it is a sickness that one never gets over once you get it. he cant even hold a reasonable conversation anymore. all he knows how to do is call people names or make personal threats against them or start arguments by telling everyone else how stupid they are and how smart he is. AZMULA & ZENTOLL ---- Iwouldnt be expecting much from OUR mr. Roberts (PETIERs PARTNER) he is too busy dodgeing bullets about diging up indian graves and the validity of some of the info he gave to mrs Corbin to be going out on any more limbs. people reap what thew sow.
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Post by TGH »

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Roger
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Milton Rose Inputs on Walt's Deathbed

Post by Roger »

Zentull,

Regarding the Holmes Manuscript story of Waltz killing his nephew, here is what Milton Rose wrote in "Rainbow's End" on page 22 on that incident:

"I have a story on Dick Holmes the origin of which is Dick Holmes. The story relates that Dick Holmes took his fourteen yearl old son Brownie to see Skeleton Cave on the Salt River. It says that while they were camped at Aqua Escondido they dug up the skeleton of an Apache whom Waltz had killed there and buried. The skeleton had a "Peace Medal" around the neck. They removed the medal and reoovered the remains. This story is completely true. Waltz told all about it."

Somewhere along the way in the repeating of this story, the Apache that Waltz killed became his nephew with a whole story woven around why he killed the nephew.

My personal view is that the Dick Holmes story of being with Waltz when he died is fabricated by Dick from material he either knew about or later got from Julia. Milton Rose wrote an article, "The Last Days of Jacob Waltz", in the SMHS Journal Volume 2 No. 3 (1982) which reads on page 5:

"The men present when Jacob Waltz died were David Schoulters, Charles Roberts, and Simon P. Carr. Schoulters and Carr spoke somer German. They acknowledged this to Justice of the Peace M.P. Griffin on October 27, 1891 after Julia Thomas had appeared before him and swore that the three men named had stollen a bag containing $500.00 in gold from Wlatz's locker under his bed."

Roger
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Not True

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ward,

Other than where Ron Feldman came from, you are completely wrong.

Ron is a good businessman, which is why his doors are still open while others are closed. That is one hard business to keep afloat and requires a great deal of personal labor.

As for his bank account.......from what I know of the man, I doubt it is as thin as others, perhaps even yours. That might explalin your comments.

I doubt Ron has Jesse speaking for him. Both are quite able to speak for themselves and stand on their own two feet......., if dismounting is really necessary. :lol:

Ron is one of the "Old Timers" often spoken about here. There is no one alive who knows more about the LDM than Ron. I am 100% sure of that statement.

From your past participation here, even though it's called for, I doubt an apology to Ron is anywhere in your future. Your words have always been those of a jealous, bitter man. In that respect, you are not different than Peter.

As for the rest of your post, it seems fairly accurate.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

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LDM
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Milton Rose input.

Post by LDM »

LDM
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Re: Milton Rose input.

Post by djui5 »

I don't know what the real story is. I have read what I can and listened to those who were around back then and from that, have come up with what I believe is the way things happened. It may be right, it may be wrong but it is my opinion and that is what all of us must ultimately do.

Matthew K. Roberts
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Joe Ribaudo
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Historian

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Roger,

Matthew is, of course, on the money in this matter. If there is a better source anywhere on the events surrounding the death of Jacob Waltz, let me know if you dig him up. :lol:

No one is dissing Milton Rose, but history does have a way of changing with each telling. Lucky for us, the Roberts Family has always had their own historians passing along the history on this matter.

Since we don't really know what took place at Waltz's deathbed, we can only guess at the honesty of those who claimed to be there. If there was a theft, it seems unlikely we will ever hear the true story.

Joe Ribaudo
Ward
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Re: Not True

Post by Ward »

Joe Ribaudo wrote:Ward,


From your past participation here, even though it's called for, I doubt an apology to Ron is anywhere in your future.

Joe Ribaudo
Joe,

I have no problem with making an apology when I am wrong but your dislikeing my coments does not prove that i am wrong when you atempt to defend the undefendable you only show how uninformed youare. that does not make you a bad person it reflects only on your awareness.

ward
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Awareness?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ward,

"I have no problem with making an apology when I am wrong but your dislikeing my coments does not prove that i am wrong when you atempt to defend the undefendable you only show how uninformed youare. that does not make you a bad person it reflects only on your awareness."

I have spent a little time with Ron and feel I am pretty aware of who the man is.

I did not say I disliked what you said, I said you "were completely wrong". Can't get much more aware than that. I was going on my personal knowledge and dealings with Ron over a number of years.

Could you tell me if ".... a Jewish busines man from New York....." is any different than one from Miami, Los Angeles or Phoenix? I would agree that being from New York is seldom a plus in the Southwest, but Ron has paid his dues here, while your history is a mystery.

It is easy to cast aspersions and accusations from the dark shadows of anonymity. Step into the light so we can judge the man who is judging others. You up for that kind of challange......Ward?

You will find that calling an asshole an asshole, and then signing your name below it, is a truly uplifting experience. Trust me, I know only too well.

Joe Ribaudo
Roger
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Milton Rose and the Roberts Family

Post by Roger »

LDM,

Thanks for the inputs on Milton Rose and the Roberts family. Having access to some of these pioneer families and their records and family history can fill in a lot of blanks with some fairly reliable information.

Roger
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Post by TGH »

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Joe Ribaudo
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True

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Peter,

Thanks for the compliment. I do try to be a "class act", but people like you do tend to bring out another side in me. :)

Your act would be interesting, especially if your fellow plotters would come out and join the fray. So far, only a peter has put his name on the plan. Why is your voice the only one willing to predict my demise?

Can we assume you are creating other voices, as we speak, so to speak?
If you could just talk to Wyatt, (I assume he is at your kitchen table)
your numbers could swell close to the size of your head. :lol:

You are wasting your time with me. I receive my treasure from the Superstitions years ago. It's another treasure altogether, knowing you will never receive yours. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good luck, and I mean that. You need it.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

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Ward
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Post by Ward »

Don,t let him rattle you joe. so him and his friends are trying to get there own moderated fourm so they can boot you out of it or delete anything you post in it WOO-PEE-DOO, you can still copy anything you want from it and paste it in this UNCENCORED fourm and make your responce to it here. anyone that reads the cencored fourm will also want to see the uncencored version also. like i said ------- WOO-PEE-DOO!!!!!!! what ever happened to PETIERS strong beliefs in freedom of speach?????? and the right to choose???? i gues it only aplies to his friends huh? now they will have the right to choose what everyone sees? i don,t see that working out for long.you know - - - - if that comes to pass - - - it may suggest that Ron,s opinon of you may not be quite as high as your opinon of him is. him letting them atempt to take over this fourm that way.
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Post by TGH »

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Joe Ribaudo
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Old Timers

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Ward,

A friend of ours passed away last Saturday. He was 100. He was sharp and active right up to the end. Guy could shoot pool like a hustler. Matter of fact, he made some money that way during the depression.

Sometimes you just have to admire a man who survived the tough times.
Clemens Wiesner was a man you could admire without knowing one speck of his history. When you shook his hand you could read his history in the firmness of his grasp, the look in his eyes and the way he carried himself.

Clemens' wife passed away in 1994. They had been married for 65 years. That alone tells you something about the man.

Folks don't have to always be advertising how smart they are, how tough they are, what a great sex life they have or how stupid everyone else is.

There is a lot to be said for a man who lives his life for 100 years, in quiet dignity. They are always the ones who die in the same manner they lived. I have always aspired to live my life like Clemens, but admit I often fall short of that goal.

The important thing......is knowing you are falling short. Some people never know.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by TGH »

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LDM
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Petrasch statement.

Post by LDM »

LDM
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zentull
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Post by zentull »

The reason I began this thread was because of the contradictory statements and actions made by Rhiney Petrasch concerning the LDM.
On one hand you have someone who admittedly by their own account simply blew a once in a lifetime chance. On the other, an individual who searched for the mine for over 50 years and knew Waltz since 1885. Most of the LDM knowledge came early from that source. Though Ely interviewed Thomas, it is from the Bark notes that Ely drew most of his resources. The Waltz story resource in the Bark notes is Petrasch.

Aside from several pages from Corbins book, most information concerning Waltz via Petrasch is limited to very short, albeit interesting, quotes. Much more information is transmitted through either Gottfried or Herman.

Of course Rhiney never found the mine. Neither did dozens of others who are given much more prominence in the LDM saga. Petrasch had a very different relationship directly with Waltz than any other Dutch hunter. It would be thought his actions and words would carry more volume than they do.
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