Walter Gassler mystery.

Discuss information about the Lost Dutchman Mine
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krf
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Post by krf »

Zentull,

I have always felt that Bulff Spring Mountain had a lot of potential for being the location for the LDM mostly because of all the documented previous activity there that you mention. The only thing that has kept me from pursuing it further is the idea that in what limited material I have, (and I could be missing something important) neither Julia Thomas or Rhiney Petrasch (the best sources in my opinion) mentioned anything about having to climb to the top of a mountain to find the mine. Although Waltz is supposed to have told them that it was high up but you had to go down to it, High up from where? That could mean 50 feet above the trail. I feel that if you had to climb to the top of a mountain or even a mesa of any size before you started looking for the mine, Julia and Rhiney would have remembered that and mentioned it to someone.

krf
krf
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Post by krf »

Quoting matthew...

"The 50th claimant can't take precedent because he may have found the deposit on the claim. It just doesn't work that way."

I am sorry to inform you that according to what the BLM told me, IT DOES WORK THAT WAY.

I recently spent an entire afternoon at the BLM office with a print out of the topic where you mentioned all the claims overlapping each other on the mesa inquiring about how this could happen and the explaination I gave above came directly from the folks at the BLM. If someone else can get a different explaination from them, please provide me with the name of the individual they talked to so I can talk to THAT person.

krf
Joe Ribaudo
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Bluff Spring Mountain

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

krf,

Going on your "Best Source" theory, which I have always believed true in the past, it seems obvious that Bluff Spring Mountain could not be the location of the LDM. There seems no way that its location could not have been describe to the searchers that would not enable them to go directlly to the mountain.

If the mine, as describe by Waltz, was on Bluff Spring Mountain, it would have been found years ago. That mountain has specific boundries, and has been searched over and over again.

It seems a good bet that the LDM is not on Bluff Spring Mountain, Black Top or Peter's Mesa. All have been well searched, without success and without finding any serious mineral content.

All of the above is my opinion only. Most of it is based on know facts.

Joe Ribaudo
zentull
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Post by zentull »

Bluff Springs to me is a perfect example of a particular place that the trees are overlooked because of the forest. I still run across things that I somehow missed over the last 30 years, though people will tell you it has been searched with a fine tooth comb. It is public knowledge of the activities that have occured there and at Black Top Mesa, it is not made as clear what continues the intrigue there. Where people make up a rhyme, there is a reason. Most of the prospectors I met in the seventies were coming up from the southside of Bluff springs as I made my way to Needle canyon. Whether the LDM could be located there, I do not know. That I have seen the same activity in the areas of Peters Mesa, Coffee Flat, Black Top Mesa and Iron Mountain is both intriguing and confusing to me. That individuals would spend a lifetime searching for Gold where there is no proof seems ridiculous. I seriously doubt whether there are claims or not, that all of these individuals are amateurs.
LDM
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Mining claims.

Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:14 am, edited 4 times in total.
zentull
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Post by zentull »

Didn't mean to step on your toes there Joe............I always will enjoy the view from Bluff Springs.

LDM,

Are any of these claims still valid? It would seem the argument is a moot point in relation to Gassler, Kenworthy and Crazy Jake.

There was the photo you posted in the members archive earlier this summer that I believe was Bob Corbin pointing to some gold in the rocks on Peters Mesa. The location could be wrong, I was going by the location as per the other pictures.
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Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
krf
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Post by krf »

Matthew,

Your reputation for your knowledge of Pioneer history is impeccable. Your personal experiences with certain historical figures ads something that can only be admired by the rest of us, and the amount of time you have actually spent with your boots on the ground in the mountains is something else to be envied. However it does not qualify you as an expert having the last word on every subject.

That said, your knowledge in the areas of BLM Laws and the Wilderness Act could use some sprucing up, and your reputation in other areas and on matters concerning your honesty and integrity, as a person is not as pristine and admirable as it could be. Nobody can challenge the accuracy of your historical information when you draw from your private library of personal family history that is not available to the rest of us. We have no choice but to marvel at the depth of your knowledge, as I have many times in reading through the archives here. A lot of faith has been put into your every word based on your knowledge of history, without consideration of the way you mix in your own opinions and conclusions in certain matters.

A true Historian without a personal agenda would carefully separate his historical information from his personal views, and a man of honor would never create false evidence in support of his personal agenda or violate the trust of a friend. I am not accusing you of any of the above myself, but as some of the less outspoken members of this forum already know, there is more than one “Giant” LDM’er who does.

krf
It'a ALL in "WHO" you know
LDM
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Post by LDM »

LDM
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Joe Ribaudo
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Shadow Fighting

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

kfr,

Fighting someone from the shadows of anonymity does not bolster your own integrity or honor one bit. No one will trust anything you say, if you are too ashamed to put your name at the bottom of your post.

I have been the object of this type of attack for some time now. I know who some of the people were and have asked them to have the courage to use their own names. None have ever done that.

I always wonder at the type of person that can't see the damage they are doing to themselves by resorting to such cowardly methods. We all lower ourselves now and then, I have, but I have always tried to rise above those instincts.

When you manage to do that, it feels pretty good.

Joe Ribaudo
LDM
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Shadoows.

Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Yes....But

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

It's true that the comments were directed to you, just as my comments were directed to kfr. You felt compelled to reply to my post to kfr. Why is that?

I addressed his methods and never, for a second, defended you or even questioned the "facts" he used.

In the past I have often questioned "facts" and methods. When Azmula asked for the Forum to critique his story, I questioned his "historical facts". I never once questioned his character. For that, I was attacked by a number of your closest friends, and Azmula tried to add fuel to the fire by leaving the Forum.

When I questioned Peter's "facts" concerning the Two Soldiers and offered another way to look at the story, I was personally attacked again.

When I questioned both you and Peter concerning the "historical facts" surrounding the Apache from Ft. Sill, who were allowed to move to the Mescalero Reservation, not only was I personally attacked by you, but your friends savaged me again. You then deleated all of your posts, except one, and then, like Azmula, tried to add fuel to the fire by leaving the Forum.

When only your close friends paid attention to these tactics, and the Forum went on, you both returned. That was to the good of the Forum, in my opinion.

My theories have been attacked and ridiculed many, many times here.
While I would defend my ideas, I never got angry. I did, however get angry from the PERSONAL attacks.

At this point in time, I don't really know if kfr knows what he is talking about. Because of that, I attacked his methods and could not defend you.

While I have thanked you for your past kindness to me, that will not negate the damage you have done with your personal attacks on my character.

The e-mail that you sent to people I don't even know and to someone I consider a friend, repeating lies that you say someone told you, placed us on opposite ends of the "moral high ground".

I attack "facts" and not personalities. I respond to personal attacks on my character. I respond to repugnant posts on this Forum in any manner I choose. If you take it as a personal defense of Matthew Roberts, that's your right.

Re-read my post. I did not tell kfr what he should write. I told him my opinion of the kind of post he had written. When you post to a public forum, that is the thing you should expect......Opinions.

My opinion of your own post is: It had nothing to do with what I said, and had everything to do with trying to let everyone know your opinion of "Joseph". We have both shared our opinions of each other, now let's go back to the topic.

Joe Ribaudo
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Post by LDM »

LDM
Last edited by LDM on Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
Joe Ribaudo
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Let It Go

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Matthew,

I did not address his attack on you, in particular. I suppose I could have waited until next week, so you would find no offense in my "imagined" defense. This method of attacking a member's character on this Forum, as opposed to their "facts" has been ignored too long. You are doing that here.

If someone wants to have a private conversation, they should take it to one of the vehicles we have available to us. Your friends will no doubt jump into this conversation, just as they always have, without a whimper from Matthew. You have never said one word in the past when that happened, so why is it so important now?

"...but as some of the less outspoken members of this forum already know...." That brings us "less outspoken members of this forum" into his part of the conversation, as he includes us as knowing.

"One of the things you do best Joe, is take things other people say and events that happen and reframe them and redefine them in your own special way so it reads as if Joe is always the victim and everyone else is the evil person. While that is a tactic used by millions, it doesn't hide the fact you are revising others words and defining them in your own special terms and your terms only. That is your perogative Joe, but you only fool some of the people by those ploys."

This is the part of the Forum where I attack your "facts".

Please drag an example (quote) where I have misapplied or misused the above "things" and "events". With your permission, I will be happy to post your e-mail to the First Amendment Forum, and you can explain how I have twisted your meaning.

Perhaps you should start another topic on: [How Joe Ribado employs
"a tactic used by millions".] :lol:

It's true that I do understand the English language. Not only the words, but the meanings. Not everyone here has that same ability. :cry:

This will be my last post on this subject. Continue your efforts, Sir.

Joe Ribaudo
JIM HAMRICK
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Walter cassler mystery

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

My partner and I have a claim near Wickenburg and we pay a yearly maintenance fee of $125.00. We do not have to do assement work and only have to follow BLM rules, sometime not logical nor consistant, to keep the claim. Having never been in the position of having anyone file over us I believe that should this happen it would be a matter for the courts of county in which it is located. If there were any claims on BLM land that existed before the land became a national momument or other use that caused it to be withdrawn from claiming, the existing claims would have to be honored or bought out.

In between members snipping at each other I have learned more info in the last few weeks than in the previous year. I think of the form as brain storming where all ideas are are expressed and let the ones with weight settle to the bottom, a lot like panning rich sand down to the nuggets.

I am still in awe of the collective knowledge of members of this site and am very happy to read each and ever post and hope no one has doubts as to posting their theories or opinions.

I would like to suggest to someone that if any of you have had it in the back or your mind do to a chronological overview of the LDM thread it would be most welcome. Having lived in the area for 60+/- years I have been aware of the Lost Dutchman but only had a gereral knowledge of it. Some of the stories I have heard do not seem to be fit the over view of present Dutch hunters.

Thanks Jim Hamrick
Joe Ribaudo
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A Claim?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jim,

Good post. It's nice to hear from someone who has a working claim. If you don't know the rules, who does?

Good luck and take care,

Joe Ribaudo
JIM HAMRICK
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Walter Cassler mystery

Post by JIM HAMRICK »

Mr. Ribaudo and/or other members

I am not claiming to have a great knowledge of BLM rules but I do have a passing understanding of the ones that apply to my partner's and my claim. Several years ago the BLM rep. that we had worked with for a length of time retired and was replaced by one that we did not have a good rapport with. As a consequence of this we had to remove a storage, shed a toliet (the toliet had to be inspected by Maricopa County before BLM would alow it about three years before they told us to remove it, this inspection costs $100.00), a solar heated shower, a permanent sluice and a camp trailer. When all of these were removed we had to return the property to look as if nothing had been there. We complied with this request but was told later after the new rep. had been replaced that all we had to do was file a certain form to keep what we had. I am telling you this because I do not believe that the BLM knows their own rules or selectively enforces them. I would not be suprised to hear different info. from one rep. vrs. another.
I am not knocking all BLM reps. as some have been very helpful and were pleasent to work with.

Thanks Jim Hamrick
Joe Ribaudo
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Don't Know?

Post by Joe Ribaudo »

Jim,

It is just as possible that the "BLM rep" did know the rules, and chose to harrase you. There are folks out there who abuse others just because they can. Mix in a little "power" and they will make their own rules.

While you were in Wickenburg, did you ever run across a lady named Virgina? She used to own Virgina's Steak House up at Vallecito Lake in Colorado. Fun lady to be around. Think she is working for a dude ranch in Wickenburg now.

Hope you are doing better now. It would be a pleasure to meet you at the Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe
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