The following posted by Novice shakes things up a bit.
"1984, May 4, (Friday) – Gene Baker and Don Shade find the body and by the time that Dr. Olsen examined the body Gassler has been dead 2 or 3 days."
If Shade and Baker found the body on Friday then Dr. Olsen would not have seen the body until Saturday, probably well over 48 hours from Gassler's death. This could put Gassler's death on Thursday, on his way out of the mountains with the gold? Now, what is Sherwood's role in all of this?
Jesse
Walter Gassler mystery.
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
Novice
The "3-day" timeline seems to be the following:
Day 1 : Walter hikes up to Peters Mesa from 1st Water up Bull Pass and camps at Charlyboy Spring.
Day 2 : Walter hikes up Charlyboy Canyon, finds the mine, and hikes back down to either one of his camps on Peters Mesa or Charlyboy Spring.
Day 3 : Walter hikes back to 1st Water.
As both Jesse and LDM suggested, this is ludicrous. The hike from Charleyboy Canyon up to the Salt Flats alone would be an all day affair for and elderly man. FORGET about hiking over to and then searching the area where Gassler thought the LDM was hidden. It simply boggles the mind that this is a plausible explanation of events.
Researching timelines and such is helpful and I applaud your efforts, but
the "official" version of events, knowing what I know about the terrain alone, is simply not possible.
P
The "3-day" timeline seems to be the following:
Day 1 : Walter hikes up to Peters Mesa from 1st Water up Bull Pass and camps at Charlyboy Spring.
Day 2 : Walter hikes up Charlyboy Canyon, finds the mine, and hikes back down to either one of his camps on Peters Mesa or Charlyboy Spring.
Day 3 : Walter hikes back to 1st Water.
As both Jesse and LDM suggested, this is ludicrous. The hike from Charleyboy Canyon up to the Salt Flats alone would be an all day affair for and elderly man. FORGET about hiking over to and then searching the area where Gassler thought the LDM was hidden. It simply boggles the mind that this is a plausible explanation of events.
Researching timelines and such is helpful and I applaud your efforts, but
the "official" version of events, knowing what I know about the terrain alone, is simply not possible.
P
I have a question, if Walter gave his diary to Corbin, and Walter was sure he knew where the mine was, why would Corbin/Kollenborn refuse to attend the mountains with him? Corbin/Kollenborn are avid dutch hunters, and being avid dutch hunters I believe would have been beside themselves looking at new evidence with someone who knows exactly where the mine is. Seems kinda strange to me personally.1983, December 13 – Gassler visits Bob Corbin's office in Phoenix and gives him his "diary" of his search for the LDM.
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Gassler contacts Kollenborn and is trying to reach Bob Corbin. Informed that Corbin is unavailable, Gassler tells Tom he has solved the puzzle and invites him to accompany him into the mountains. According to Tom, Gassler is planning on leaving the next morning (Monday, April 30, 1984) for the Superstitions. Gassler had apparently ask Corbin and Kollenborn to accompany him earlier but on those occasions they also declined to join him. Since the weather was getting hot, Gassler was anxious to get into the Mountains.
novice
Also, I'm curious if it is written anywhere what Walter had on him when he was dropped off at First Water? Did I miss that in a post somewhere?
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Jesse,I have a problem with Gassler only spending three days and how this story is unfolding. Looks like to me that Gassler had intended on confirming what he thought to be the LDM, but that his elderly situation prohibited him from keeping his planned schedule of reaching camp the first day, an easy hike in good weather for a strong hiker (LDM's belief that the camp was set up for Gassler). Did Gassler spend a night without a sleeping bag and other useful overnight items at Charlebois Springs?
Actually, the weather being warm in May, Gassler could have gone in with minimal stuff and spent a relatively uncomfortable night by the campfire. You could carry everything you really needed in a day pack (there's that day pack again). But, LDM says Gassler's health was poor, so this doesn't seem too likely.
But possible!
I spent some time snoozing at Charlyboy once. Not so bad or uncomfortable if one gets underneath one of the trees. Only had a canteen and a daypack for my pillow.
So there I was at Charlyboy one with nature ...watching a little group of doves pecking the ground to my left. They hadnt noticed ma and I figured I would stay still and see how close they got before flying off. Then I notice movement to my right.
Here comes wile e coyote creep creeping on his belly like a cat trying to catch lunch. The wind, such as it was, was at the coyotes back so I guess he didnt smell me. He was intent on the birds so didnt notice me. Sneak sneak sneak. And when he was about to pounce he glanced towards me ..froze ..let out a yelp and ran away like all hell. He went one way the birds went the other and I pulled my hat back down over my eyes and continued with my business of dozing.
A true trickster story.
So there I was at Charlyboy one with nature ...watching a little group of doves pecking the ground to my left. They hadnt noticed ma and I figured I would stay still and see how close they got before flying off. Then I notice movement to my right.
Here comes wile e coyote creep creeping on his belly like a cat trying to catch lunch. The wind, such as it was, was at the coyotes back so I guess he didnt smell me. He was intent on the birds so didnt notice me. Sneak sneak sneak. And when he was about to pounce he glanced towards me ..froze ..let out a yelp and ran away like all hell. He went one way the birds went the other and I pulled my hat back down over my eyes and continued with my business of dozing.
A true trickster story.
Roland Gassler's Words
When I try to venture away from the "official story", the biggest hurdle I face is trying to resolve what I "believe" are the words of Roland Gassler.
Dr. Glover interviewed Roland and this is some of what I gather he took away?
1. Roland said that his mother took Walter to the First Water Trail Head on Tuesday and dropped him off.
"he unloaded his pack at First Water, said goodbye to his wife, reminding her to pick him up in three days – for his plan was to hike in Tuesday, establish camp, locate the mine on Wednesday and return on Thursday."
2. Dr. Glover also relates an earlier attempt by Walter to reach his area of interest by entering the mountains at the Peralta Trailhead. The implication is that on this occasion he went in alone and was on foot. He was fortunate to get back out of the mountains.
3. The family knew it was dangerous and did their best dissuade Walter from venturing into the Mountains.
One of the reasons given that sheds doubt on the "official story" was that we have to believe that Walter's family was OK with taking the elder Gassler to the trailhead,......
I don't believe the family was OK with Walter going in. The family story about Walter threatening to take a bus to Apache Junction and walk from there seems to shout we are dealing with a very determined individual.
It was suggested earlier that whether Walter was stubborn or not was not really relevant but I believe his mind set may very well be germane to the story.
Since Roland's account is apparently the most reliable source we have, is it possible to marry that into the "unofficial story"? Or do we have to assume he had some things in error or that Dr. Glover misinterpreted some of what Roland told him?
Can we accept the three day trip in both stories or does Roland have to be wrong?
If we assume Walter was packed in, does it logically follow that he would have been packed out. Sounds like a rough trip from either direction?
If the packer returned to Walter's camp on Thursday to pick him up, he would have either seen Walter's body on the way in or being unable to locate Walter and suspecting something was wrong, simply returned to the Trailhead because he didn't want to be involved?
This seems to require some degree of collusion on the part of Walter's family unless they were completely unaware that Walter had hooked up with a packer. I can only imagine the anguish for the family waiting at the Trailhead for Walter to return on Thursday evening if indeed that was the itinerary. When it got dark and no Walter. They must have been beside themselves. I guess I would have at least contacted the Forest Service that evening and reported him missing.
Garry
Dr. Glover interviewed Roland and this is some of what I gather he took away?
1. Roland said that his mother took Walter to the First Water Trail Head on Tuesday and dropped him off.
"he unloaded his pack at First Water, said goodbye to his wife, reminding her to pick him up in three days – for his plan was to hike in Tuesday, establish camp, locate the mine on Wednesday and return on Thursday."
2. Dr. Glover also relates an earlier attempt by Walter to reach his area of interest by entering the mountains at the Peralta Trailhead. The implication is that on this occasion he went in alone and was on foot. He was fortunate to get back out of the mountains.
3. The family knew it was dangerous and did their best dissuade Walter from venturing into the Mountains.
One of the reasons given that sheds doubt on the "official story" was that we have to believe that Walter's family was OK with taking the elder Gassler to the trailhead,......
I don't believe the family was OK with Walter going in. The family story about Walter threatening to take a bus to Apache Junction and walk from there seems to shout we are dealing with a very determined individual.
It was suggested earlier that whether Walter was stubborn or not was not really relevant but I believe his mind set may very well be germane to the story.
Since Roland's account is apparently the most reliable source we have, is it possible to marry that into the "unofficial story"? Or do we have to assume he had some things in error or that Dr. Glover misinterpreted some of what Roland told him?
Can we accept the three day trip in both stories or does Roland have to be wrong?
If we assume Walter was packed in, does it logically follow that he would have been packed out. Sounds like a rough trip from either direction?
If the packer returned to Walter's camp on Thursday to pick him up, he would have either seen Walter's body on the way in or being unable to locate Walter and suspecting something was wrong, simply returned to the Trailhead because he didn't want to be involved?
This seems to require some degree of collusion on the part of Walter's family unless they were completely unaware that Walter had hooked up with a packer. I can only imagine the anguish for the family waiting at the Trailhead for Walter to return on Thursday evening if indeed that was the itinerary. When it got dark and no Walter. They must have been beside themselves. I guess I would have at least contacted the Forest Service that evening and reported him missing.
Garry
>>Can we accept the three day trip in both stories or does Roland have to be wrong?<<
The three day trip would be possible ONLY if he was packed in and out.
My take is that he was packed in Day 1, set up his own camp, and died Day 2.
Now heres a thought. If he WAS going to be packed out, and the orignal packer was coming back to meet him at his camp on Peters Mesa, what was he doing on the trail heading down to Charlyboy?
The three day trip would be possible ONLY if he was packed in and out.
My take is that he was packed in Day 1, set up his own camp, and died Day 2.
Now heres a thought. If he WAS going to be packed out, and the orignal packer was coming back to meet him at his camp on Peters Mesa, what was he doing on the trail heading down to Charlyboy?
Would a treasure hunter really have a packer take him to THE exact spot? Or, would he have himself packed just close enough to leave a lot of doubt as to the location of the treasure? Point being Gassler could be packed in and still be walking around quite a bit.
Also, if you are a packer would you go all the way to Peters Mesa and back on Tuesday just to repeat the process on Thursday (with a very early start on Thursday so your client would get out at a reasonable time)? Or would you just stay out there maybe moving camp a few miles to a spot you like more or could use to secretly check up on your client?
Also, if you are a packer would you go all the way to Peters Mesa and back on Tuesday just to repeat the process on Thursday (with a very early start on Thursday so your client would get out at a reasonable time)? Or would you just stay out there maybe moving camp a few miles to a spot you like more or could use to secretly check up on your client?
>>Would a treasure hunter really have a packer take him to THE exact spot? Or, would he have himself packed just close enough to leave a lot of doubt as to the location of the treasure? Point being Gassler could be packed in and still be walking around quite a bit. <<
GASSLERS CAMP WAS NOT NEAR THE LOCATION OF WHERE WALTER THOUGHT THE LDM WAS. IT WAS IN STRIKING DISTANCE, BUT NOT THAT CLOSE. THAT SAID, I THINK IT MORE LIKELY FOR HIM TO BE PACKED TO THE CHARLYBOY SPRING AREA.
Also, if you are a packer would you go all the way to Peters Mesa and back on Tuesday just to repeat the process on Thursday (with a very early start on Thursday so your client would get out at a reasonable time)? Or would you just stay out there maybe moving camp a few miles to a spot you like more or could use to secretly check up on your client?
I DO NOT BELEIVE A PACKER WOULD CAMP WITH ANIMALS UP IN THAT AREA IF HE COULD HELP IT. BUT YOU MAKE A VALID POINT. DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO PACK IN ON DAY 1 , COME ALL THE WAY OUT OF THE MOUNTAINS, AND THEN PACK OUT ON DAY 3.
LOTS OF THINGS ABOUT THIS WHOLE EPISODE DONT MAKE SENSE.
GASSLERS CAMP WAS NOT NEAR THE LOCATION OF WHERE WALTER THOUGHT THE LDM WAS. IT WAS IN STRIKING DISTANCE, BUT NOT THAT CLOSE. THAT SAID, I THINK IT MORE LIKELY FOR HIM TO BE PACKED TO THE CHARLYBOY SPRING AREA.
Also, if you are a packer would you go all the way to Peters Mesa and back on Tuesday just to repeat the process on Thursday (with a very early start on Thursday so your client would get out at a reasonable time)? Or would you just stay out there maybe moving camp a few miles to a spot you like more or could use to secretly check up on your client?
I DO NOT BELEIVE A PACKER WOULD CAMP WITH ANIMALS UP IN THAT AREA IF HE COULD HELP IT. BUT YOU MAKE A VALID POINT. DOESNT MAKE SENSE TO PACK IN ON DAY 1 , COME ALL THE WAY OUT OF THE MOUNTAINS, AND THEN PACK OUT ON DAY 3.
LOTS OF THINGS ABOUT THIS WHOLE EPISODE DONT MAKE SENSE.
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
All,
The packer that we are talking about could have gone all the way to Peter's Mesa and back, however, I can not remember if I have ever done it, and I surely will not do it now. The round trip is a horse killer. I have done something similar to what some have suggested. I packed camp in to Charliebois and then took a man up to Peters Mesa. He only had a day pack when I left him up there. He was to be back in camp some time that night. I then came back to Charliebois to spend the next two nights and wait for the man to finish up his explorations.
My guess is that if Gassler was packed in the packer stayed in Jake's camp. That packer worked for Jake. Ironically he also worked for the Forest Service later on. The story is unfolding as if Gassler died on Peter's Mesa and his body was dropped off where it was found, possibly on Friday, explaining the mysterious man that Don saw. Gassler made it to camp, and had the gold? Now, who is the imposter?
Jesse
Jesse
The packer that we are talking about could have gone all the way to Peter's Mesa and back, however, I can not remember if I have ever done it, and I surely will not do it now. The round trip is a horse killer. I have done something similar to what some have suggested. I packed camp in to Charliebois and then took a man up to Peters Mesa. He only had a day pack when I left him up there. He was to be back in camp some time that night. I then came back to Charliebois to spend the next two nights and wait for the man to finish up his explorations.
My guess is that if Gassler was packed in the packer stayed in Jake's camp. That packer worked for Jake. Ironically he also worked for the Forest Service later on. The story is unfolding as if Gassler died on Peter's Mesa and his body was dropped off where it was found, possibly on Friday, explaining the mysterious man that Don saw. Gassler made it to camp, and had the gold? Now, who is the imposter?
Jesse
Jesse
Jesse
If the packer DID stay at Jakes Camp waiting for Walter, how would Gasslers body be taken down to the spot where it was found? The trail leading down to Charlyboy is only what 100-200 feet from that Camp? Point I am making is that anyone lugging a body down that way would have had to pass thru the vicinity of the camp and the view that ways from the Camp itself is pretty open...just the Salt Flats in front looking towards Tortilla, not much cover all the way up to the ridge dividing Peters Mesa with Peters Canyon.
Course one could take a roundabout way to get there, but seems to be too much trouble to bypass the Jakes Camp area.
Still think he took those ore sample sin with him, rather than him finding any gold near the mine area.
P
If the packer DID stay at Jakes Camp waiting for Walter, how would Gasslers body be taken down to the spot where it was found? The trail leading down to Charlyboy is only what 100-200 feet from that Camp? Point I am making is that anyone lugging a body down that way would have had to pass thru the vicinity of the camp and the view that ways from the Camp itself is pretty open...just the Salt Flats in front looking towards Tortilla, not much cover all the way up to the ridge dividing Peters Mesa with Peters Canyon.
Course one could take a roundabout way to get there, but seems to be too much trouble to bypass the Jakes Camp area.
Still think he took those ore sample sin with him, rather than him finding any gold near the mine area.
P
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Jesse J. Feldman
- Part Timer
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 2:26 pm
- Location: Superstition Mts. Az.
TGH,
Your probably right about the gold samples, if there was any to begin with.
LDM is delicately showing us a story. By reading his words, Gassler's body would have been taken by the packer to the spot where it was found. Jake's camp did not want the body to be found in their area? Make sense?
The Peter's Mesa/P. Pack Trail is hardly used. A person that knows the mountains, knows how far down the trail he can go without being spotted, with some degree of risk. That trail is well hidden most of the way to where Gassler was found. The upper area is out in the open, but it is above most everything and can only be seen from a far, especially with that ridge on the north hiding the trail. Unless someone was coming down the trail, which is the degree of risk, you would not be spotted. You would not go to the springs with Gassler's body. Again, I am only following LDM's story, and speculating. I hope I have not put "words into his mouth" or missed something.
Jesse
Your probably right about the gold samples, if there was any to begin with.
LDM is delicately showing us a story. By reading his words, Gassler's body would have been taken by the packer to the spot where it was found. Jake's camp did not want the body to be found in their area? Make sense?
The Peter's Mesa/P. Pack Trail is hardly used. A person that knows the mountains, knows how far down the trail he can go without being spotted, with some degree of risk. That trail is well hidden most of the way to where Gassler was found. The upper area is out in the open, but it is above most everything and can only be seen from a far, especially with that ridge on the north hiding the trail. Unless someone was coming down the trail, which is the degree of risk, you would not be spotted. You would not go to the springs with Gassler's body. Again, I am only following LDM's story, and speculating. I hope I have not put "words into his mouth" or missed something.
Jesse
Jesse
Yes, makes perfect sense. How did Gasslers body arrive where it did?
1) Walter himself arrived at that spot and died there.
2) An unnamed packer left him at that location
3) He was taken there by 'Jakes men"
4) He was taken there by person or persons unknown
Choose your poison I guess. We will just never know the whole truth.
As far as the trail goes, I was talking about the upper part near the L-turn.
True, one doesnt get many folks coming and going that ways, but would you lug a body down that trail knowing there was a possibilty of being spotted? Just too darn remote. Another possibilty is that Gasslers body was moved at night.
I dont know too many people who would be walking around at night up there (or anywhere else) particuarly during the dark of the moon, that would be a pretty long haul for a night run.
P
Yes, makes perfect sense. How did Gasslers body arrive where it did?
1) Walter himself arrived at that spot and died there.
2) An unnamed packer left him at that location
3) He was taken there by 'Jakes men"
4) He was taken there by person or persons unknown
Choose your poison I guess. We will just never know the whole truth.
As far as the trail goes, I was talking about the upper part near the L-turn.
True, one doesnt get many folks coming and going that ways, but would you lug a body down that trail knowing there was a possibilty of being spotted? Just too darn remote. Another possibilty is that Gasslers body was moved at night.
I dont know too many people who would be walking around at night up there (or anywhere else) particuarly during the dark of the moon, that would be a pretty long haul for a night run.
P
I think it seems that someone wanted Gasslers body found where it was. It could have to do with the area they were in or Walter was in.
More intriguing is the story line follows his body was found on Friday, removed Saturday and by Sunday evening someone had approached Tom Kollenborn concerning the notes?
That would limit the number of people in the spotlight. I doubt Gassler let that many people know what he was doing.
More intriguing is the story line follows his body was found on Friday, removed Saturday and by Sunday evening someone had approached Tom Kollenborn concerning the notes?
That would limit the number of people in the spotlight. I doubt Gassler let that many people know what he was doing.
>>It's pretty remote up there, not many hikers go through there on the trail today and even fewer went through back in 84. I don't see where packing someone down the trail to CharleyBoy would have presented much of a problem back then. <<
LDM
Point I was making is that it would be difficult to pack a body past Jakes Camp during daylight unseen. If the folks doing the packing USED Jakes Camp, I guess that being unseen wouldnt matter much.
Don Shades reaction regarding the fellow skulking about the area of the body seems to indicate that Jake or his men were at least aware of the body location and the fact that Tom K was approached almost immediately after the event also indicates that whoever did so knew immediately that Walter had passed on and that they had to be fast in order to get the Gasler notes from Tom.
I have stood perhaps a quarter mile west of the Jakes Camp area at another camp I know of and I could STILL hear people talking and see them clearly after walking over to a little bench of rock when a couple of hikers hit the L bend on the Peters Trail.
LDM
Point I was making is that it would be difficult to pack a body past Jakes Camp during daylight unseen. If the folks doing the packing USED Jakes Camp, I guess that being unseen wouldnt matter much.
Don Shades reaction regarding the fellow skulking about the area of the body seems to indicate that Jake or his men were at least aware of the body location and the fact that Tom K was approached almost immediately after the event also indicates that whoever did so knew immediately that Walter had passed on and that they had to be fast in order to get the Gasler notes from Tom.
I have stood perhaps a quarter mile west of the Jakes Camp area at another camp I know of and I could STILL hear people talking and see them clearly after walking over to a little bench of rock when a couple of hikers hit the L bend on the Peters Trail.
But, if Walter was concerned about Jake and his men knowing he was there, why would he have Jake's packer take him in? Wouldn't that be like sounding the trumpets and saying "Here I am"?The one thing that has always bothered me about Walter's death was what you mentioned earlier. The only person who could have helped Walter get into the mountains, was also the person who got Crazy Jake in and out of the mountains. While he wasn't owned by Jake, or on his payroll, he did do business with Jake. While I don't believe the packer would have himself been involved in anything underhanded concerning Walter, I can't say the same for Jake and his bunch.
I'm not convinced a packer was necessary. If Walter had some stuff cached, it could have been someone carrying a backpack for him. Or, just a friend who had a mule Walt could ride. I have a friend who does things like that; he's not a packer, but he'll haul stuff in for a friend. I'd bet Walt had a lot of friends.
Wiz
I think the point being made is that Gassler could NOT have hiked in to Charlyboy and then the Mesa unaided. Whether that aid was being packed in, or riding a mule or a hot air balloon (personally Id like one of them Lost in Space jet packs) is unknown, but for him to do what he wanted to do...he needed help getting up there, given the time-frame.
P
I think the point being made is that Gassler could NOT have hiked in to Charlyboy and then the Mesa unaided. Whether that aid was being packed in, or riding a mule or a hot air balloon (personally Id like one of them Lost in Space jet packs) is unknown, but for him to do what he wanted to do...he needed help getting up there, given the time-frame.
P
Yes, I understand that. LDM made it clear that his health would not permit it. But, I still find it odd that Walt would have the same guy pack him in that Jake used, when he was concerned about Jake knowing he was there. I'm theorizing that someone else, not a regular under-the-radar packer, might have gotten him in there with a minimum of supplies. If true, who was this person?
My thought on the packer thing. If he did have someone pack him in, then I'd be inclined to believe that person was either involved with his death, or has a lot to hide. That's the only explanation for not knowing who packed him in. Otherwise, why wouldn't said packer just come forward and say "Well, I packed him in to his camp and left him there Tue night". Ruths packers admitted they packed him in...
Also, I'd be inclined to believe that if he was having someone pack him in, his wife would have known about it, and would have seen this person when she dropped Walter off, right?
Another thought, if this treck was so hard, that might explain why he had a heart attack. Determined men can do some amazing things
Maybe he trecked that far, and his heart just gave out.
Another possibility is that, I think this was posted earlier, he ran into someone on the way to the spring, and that person helped him a bit. Maybe they carried his pack...who knows.
Also, I'd be inclined to believe that if he was having someone pack him in, his wife would have known about it, and would have seen this person when she dropped Walter off, right?
Another thought, if this treck was so hard, that might explain why he had a heart attack. Determined men can do some amazing things
Maybe he trecked that far, and his heart just gave out.Another possibility is that, I think this was posted earlier, he ran into someone on the way to the spring, and that person helped him a bit. Maybe they carried his pack...who knows.
Randy Wright
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari
Hobbiest LDM seeker
Mesa, AZ
"I don't care if it has electric windows. I don't care if the door gaps are straight, but when the driver steps on the gas I want him to piss his pants."
Enzo Ferrari